scholar JW
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JW Insider
23 minutes ago, JW Insider said:That's fine. It wasn't fully clear to me until now that you also reject the WTS interpretation of when Babylon became the new world power replacing Assyria (per INSIGHT). I also believe it was around 607, which was just a couple of years prior to the battle of Carchemish. INSIGHT uses Carchemish as one of the primary events marking the start of the Babylonian world power although, to make 1914 work, the Watchtower dates it to 625 instead of 605 BCE.
You are apparently using the much narrower definition of world power in the Bible when world power often refers to how Jehovah's people were affected. In this case I was asking about Jeremiah 25, which mentions "these nations" in addition to Judea
Our publications indicate that in relation to God's people Babylon became the World Power in 607 BCE with the overthrow of the Judean Monarchy.
28 minutes ago, JW Insider said:No. The prophecy against Tyre came shortly after the fall of Jerusalem in 587/6, but that specific prophecy began fulfillment years later. (This is one of the ways we know that the nations served Babylon for 70 years, but the specific length of any one nation's complete servitude could have been much shorter, less than 40 years for Tyre.) But you already indicated, above, that you rejected the Society's interpretation of this in the "Isaiah's Prophecy" book
(Ezekiel 26:1-9) . . .In the 11th year, on the first day of the moth, the word of Jehovah came to me, saying: 2 “Son of man, because Tyre has said against Jerusalem, . . . 7 “For this is what the Sovereign Lord Jehovah says: ‘Here I am bringing King Neb·u·chad·nezʹzar of Babylon against Tyre from the north; he is a king of kings, with horses, war chariots, cavalrymen, and an army of many soldiers. 8 He will destroy your settlements in the countryside with the sword, and he will build a siege wall and throw up a siege rampart against you and raise up a great shield against you. 9 He will pound your walls with his battering ram, and with his axes he will pull down your towers.
A siege wall is an indication that this did not happen overnight, but may have taken years, and may not have started until years after 587/6. This is what INSIGHT says, too:
*** INSIGHT-2 p. 531 Tyre ***
Nebuchadnezzar II besieged the city. From a military standpoint, after many years it might have seemed futile to continue. But he persevered until Tyre fell at the end of 13 years, thus fulfilling the Bible prophecy that had named him as its conqueror.—Eze 26:7-12.According to INSIGHT, the prophecy was fulfilled at least 13 years after Jerusalem fell. But the power of Babylonian domination on the whole region, including Tyre, would have been felt from at least the time of the battle of Carchemish.
No, the prophecy against Tyre occurred after the fall not in 586/7 BCE but in 607 BCE according to Ezekiel. 26:1 which prophecy was given in the 11 th year of Ezekiel's exile. Isaiah 23:14-18 simply shows that Tyre was forgotten for 70 years which had been besieged by Nebuchadnezzar thus coming under the yoke of Babylon's domination during that period of Jeremiah's 70 year period of servitude to the nations.
46 minutes ago, JW Insider said:According to INSIGHT, the prophecy was fulfilled at least 13 years after Jerusalem fell. But the power of Babylonian domination on the whole region, including Tyre, would have been felt from at least the time of the battle of Carchemish.
The date is the fall of 607 BCE not the earlier date of Carchemish for that is the time dated by Ezekiel
scholar JW
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JW Insider
15 minutes ago, JW Insider said:Why the difference? Did those other nations not have exiles to be released from Babylon?
(Jeremiah 46:13-19) . . .This is the word that Jehovah spoke to Jeremiah the prophet regarding the coming of King Neb·u·chad·nezʹzar of Babylon to strike down the land of Egypt: . . . 19 Prepare your baggage for exile, O daughter inhabiting Egypt. For Noph will become an object of horror; It will be set afire and left without an inhabitant.
(Jeremiah 46:24-26) . . .The daughter of Egypt will be put to shame. She will be handed over to the people of the north.’ 25 “Jehovah of armies, the God of Israel, says: ‘Now I am turning my attention to Aʹmon from No, to Pharʹaoh, to Egypt, to her gods, and to her kings—yes, to Pharʹaoh and all those trusting in him.’ 26 “‘And I will hand them over to those seeking to take their life, to King Neb·u·chad·nezʹzar of Babylon and his servants. But afterward she will be inhabited as in times past,’ declares Jehovah.
The difference is because of interpretation for there is a clear distinction made in the Jer. 25 where Judah is first addressed from vs. 1-11 then later the Oracle to the nations commences from verse 12-26 specifically.
18 minutes ago, JW Insider said:Can you give the years when Egypt was without an inhabitant?
No, broadly speaking but here is a chronology based on Ezek.29:12, 17-18;30:10. Neb. attacks Egypt in his 37 th year-588 BCE and Ezekiel makes his final prophecy against Egypt in his 27th year of his exile in 590 BCE.
25 minutes ago, JW Insider said:Can you give the years when Moab/Chemosh went into exile?
How can anyone say that a part of the answer is "No" to whether Jeremiah 25 mentions "these nations"? That sounds very evasive when you consider the rest of Jeremiah:
No. No historical information available which is more of a problem for you than for WT scholars. No evasion just a working with what the Bible tells us in the absence of secular history.
scholar JW
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JW Insider
16 minutes ago, JW Insider said:Can you explain how, for example, Tyre, Assyria, Egypt, and the Medes, and the Persians began their servitude to Babylon in 607? I'll make it even easier. Just tell me how Tyre began their servitude in 607 BCE?
Too easy. The simple fact is that in 607 BCE, Babylon became the new World Power as foretold by Daniel the Prophet and it exercised complete domination over all those nations from that time forward. During Neb's reign he subjugated Tyre shortly after the Fall of Jerusalem in 607 BCE- Ezek.26:1.
23 minutes ago, JW Insider said:Does it say "these nations" or not? How do you interpret the passage? Through an interpretation of the LXX
Yes this is the problem as to how to translate the passage from Hebrew into English and how to interpret the passage . Rolf Furuli discusses the linguistic issues with this verse and I recommend that you consult leading Bible commentaries on this passage including the LXX. The said scholar unlike most Witnesses loves Bible commentaries and has the leading or major commentaries of Jeremiah to hand and i would be happy to supply a reading list of such for you.
scholar JW
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JW Insider
57 minutes ago, JW Insider said:Does Jeremiah 25 say that only Judea will serve Babylon for 70 years, or does it say "these nations"?
Yes and No, depending on interpretation of this passage.
59 minutes ago, JW Insider said:From what year did Babylon's dominance over these nations start? (or, When did these nations begin their servitude to Babylon?)
607 BCE when Babylon truly became the World Power
1 hour ago, JW Insider said:From what year did Babylon's dominance over these nations end? (or, When did these nations end their servitude to Babylon?)
For the Jews it would be 537 BCE with the Return and for the nations it would have 539 BCE with the Fall of Babylon
scholar JW
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JW Insider
1 hour ago, JW Insider said:The Insight book mentions two events at the beginning of the time when Babylon's domination of the region began. The subjugation of Assyria in 612 BCE (Standard timeline) and the battle of Carchemish in 605 BCE (Standard timeline). Just add the missing 20 years that the Watchtower can't find to get the Watchtower chronology:
*** it-1 p. 238 Babylon ***
In 632 B.C.E. Assyria was subdued by this new Chaldean dynasty, with the assistance of Median and Scythian allies. In 625 B.C.E., Nabopolassar’s eldest son, Nebuchadnezzar (II), defeated Pharaoh Necho of Egypt at the battle of Carchemish, and in the same year he assumed the helm of government.The Babylonian Chronicles mark these battles at 73 years before 539 and 66 years before 539, respectively. Obviously the subjugation wasn't 100% complete 73 years before, but it was solidly proven by 66 years before. So a reasonable person would say that you could begin the count of domination somewhere between these two points. 70 is between 66 and 73. In fact, if you average the timeline between those two events you get the year 608.5 BCE. That represents 70.5 years of Babylonian domination using just those two primary events that INSIGHT speaks of as the events that handed the domination from the 2nd Empire (Assyria) to the 3rd Empire (Babylon). And, yes, the Babylonian Chronicles do record these events, that bring the "world empire" to Babylon.
So what! Accurate Bible Chronology properly fixes on notable datable events such as the Fall of Jerusalem which ended the Judean monarchy in Neb's 18th year and Zedekiah's 11 th year beginning the Exilic period of 70 years all with the framework of Babylonian and Judean history as outlined above.
1 hour ago, JW Insider said:What do you think a deportation is? If this twisting of scriptures is supposed to be required to accept the WT chronology, then I would rather choose the Bible's chronology which speaks of multiple exiles. Judah went into exile through multiple exiles
(Jeremiah 1:3) . . .It came also in the days of Je·hoiʹa·kim the son of Jo·siʹah, the king of Judah, until the completion of the 11th year of Zed·e·kiʹah the son of Jo·siʹah, the king of Judah, until Jerusalem went into exile in the fifth month.
(Jeremiah 52:15, 16) . . .Neb·uʹzar·adʹan the chief of the guard took into exile some of the lowly people and the rest of the people who were left in the city. He also took the deserters who had defected to the king of Babylon as well as the rest of the master craftsmen. 16 But Neb·uʹzar·adʹan the chief of the guard left some of the poorest people of the land to serve as vinedressers and as compulsory laborers.
(Jeremiah 52:27-30) . . .Thus Judah went into exile from its land. 28 These are the people whom Neb·u·chad·nezʹzar took into exile: in the seventh year, 3,023 Jews. 29 In the 18th year of Neb·u·chad·nezʹzar, 832 people were taken from Jerusalem. 30 In the 23rd year of Neb·u·chad·nezʹzar, Neb·uʹzar·adʹan the chief of the guard took Jews into exile, 745 people. In all, 4,600 people were taken into exile.
In Jeremiah 52, three different events from 3 different years were called "exiles." Why is it so important to you to dismiss the Bible to support the Watchtower chronology? It makes just as little sense to say these these were three exiles and only one deportation, which is also not true.
I repeat only ONE EXILE but a few deportations as discerned by leading Exilic scholars
1 hour ago, JW Insider said:This does not say when those exceptions will return. And you have had to guess about when. It's a possibility, but there is no mention that the 745 refer to those who fled from Egypt. The point is that it was terrible, people fled for their lives, people came back, and it was a terrible desolation for all. Other exceptions were obviously the people put to work on the land who didn't really "count" among the persons exiled. Archaeology of various settlements shows evidence for continuous working of the land year after year. But nowhere does the Bible say that the land had to be without an inhabitant for the full 70 years. Only that Babylon's 70 years would result in a complete desolation of the land.
Both apply equally for that exact wording is not found in the Bible but is simply a construct clearly based on the 70 year textual corpus'
scholar JW
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JW Insider
59 minutes ago, JW Insider said:Jeremiah's 70 years fits perfectly within the 66 to 73 year period of Babylon's domination. Remember even the Watchtower is forced to explain it this way when they have to:
*** ip-1 chap. 19 p. 253 par. 21 Jehovah Profanes the Pride of Tyre ***
“These nations will have to serve the king of Babylon seventy years.” (Jeremiah 25:8-17, 22, 27) True, the island-city of Tyre is not subject to Babylon for a full 70 years, since the Babylonian Empire falls in 539 B.C.E. Evidently, the 70 years represents the period of Babylonia’s greatest domination—when the Babylonian royal dynasty boasts of having lifted its throne even above “the stars of God.” (Isaiah 14:13) Different nations come under that domination at different times. But at the end of 70 years, that domination will crumble.Indeed. Jeremiah's 70 years does fall within the NB Period as it began in the 18th regnal year of Neb and extended beyond the end of that Dynasty ending in 539 BCE with the fall of Babylon ending with the Return under Cyrus in 537 BCE. During that same period other nations experienced the yoke of Babylonian domination such as Tyre.
1 hour ago, JW Insider said:It's the WT Chronology that gives Babylon 86 to 93 years. 70 does NOT fit within that range. So it's only the NB timeline that fits the Bible here, not the WT timeline.
The 70 years most certainly falls within the Babylonian timeline whichever of its length as explained above.
1 hour ago, JW Insider said:Nebuchadnezzar's missing years, you claim are not there, and yet I just showed you how the Bible's timeline gives Nebuchadnezzar only the same 43 years that the NB timeline gives. So if you can't find the 7 years in Nebuchadnezzar's 43 years, and want another 7 to 20, that's just you kicking against the Bible's goads here.
Neb's missing years are not accounted for in the NB secular history or Chronology. Its vacancy is your problem not mine.
1 hour ago, JW Insider said:And the 20 year gap in the timeline? There is no 20 year gap in the Bible's timeline, or in the NB timeline. The gap is only in the Watchtower's timeline.
There is a 20 year gap in the NB timeframe because it does account for the 70 years beginning with Neb's 18th regnal year and Zedekiah's 11th regnal year.
scholar JW
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JW Insider
46 minutes ago, JW Insider said:*** it-1 p. 1269 Jehoiakim ***
Following the siege of Jerusalem during Jehoiakim’s “third year” (as vassal king), Daniel and other Judeans, including nobles and members of the royal family, were taken as exiles to Babylon. There being no record of an earlier Babylonian exile, this appears to place the event in the short reign of Jehoiachin, Jehoiakim’s successor.—2Ki 24:12-16; Jer 52:28.Don't you think something must be wrong with a chronology that tells us to reject the Bible?
There is nothing wrong with the chronology and it does not tell us to reject the Bible.
scholar JW
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JW Insider
3 minutes ago, JW Insider said:For example, look how well that question is answered about the date of Jehoiachin's 37th year of exile.
Just start in E-M1 which is 561 and go back 37 years on the timeline and you get 598. And this is exactly Nebuchadnezzar's 7th year. Now the Bible never says that Nebuchadnezzar reigned exactly 43 years, but notice how this perfectly matches the Babylonian standard timeline. The Bible gets another confirmation from the Babylonian timeline. Even the fact that it was the 7th year is confirmed not only in the Bible but in the Babylonian Chronicles, as you can see from the first quote from Insight in the previous post.
But the WT chronology now has only a 25-year period into which to somehow squeeze 45 years worth of kings' reigns between the first year of E-M and the last year of Nabonidus (17). But it gets worse. You'll recall that the Watchtower publications use the Nabonidus Chronicle to confirm that Cyrus conquered Babylon in the 17th year of Nabonidus. This means that Nabonidus also reigned only 17 years and ended that reign in 539. The INSIGHT book admits this evidence.
So we have all of the 43 years of Nebuchandnezzar, at least 1 year of Evil Merodach's 2 years, and all 17 of the years of Nabonidus. That's 63 of the 70 years the NB timeline from NEB1 to CYRUS1. This means that the WTS chronology must now fit 25 years of kings' reigns into the 5 years between 560 BCE and 556 BCE in the standard timeline. That's the only place left where the Watchtower's missing 20 years can be made to fit. 20 year of a broken cable of chronology.
Utter bunkum. Where does Jeremiah's 70 years fit in and where does Neb's missing 7 years and the twenty year gap in the NB timeline?
scholar JW
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JW Insider
7 minutes ago, JW Insider said:Just as I thought, this is not applied to NEB23.
Read Jer. 52:20
9 minutes ago, JW Insider said:n fact, it was in the 7th month of Nebuchadnezzar's 19th year (NEB18, per INSIGHT).
(2 Kings 25:8-26) . . .In the fifth month, on the seventh day of the month, that is, in the 19th year of King Neb·u·chad·nezʹzar the king of Babylon, . . . 25 And in the seventh month, Ishʹma·el son of Neth·a·niʹah son of E·lishʹa·ma, who was of the royal line, came with ten other men, and they struck down Ged·a·liʹah and he died, along with the Jews and the Chal·deʹans who were with him in Mizʹpah [Egypt]. 26 After that all the people, from small to great, including the army chiefs, rose up and went to Egypt, for they were afraid of the Chal·deʹans.
Agreed
9 minutes ago, JW Insider said:When was King Jehoiachin exlied? Read the JEHOIACHIN article in Insight, and you will see again that this is a jumbled up broken cable. Just a few disconnected points here and there, that the WTS publications cannot string together without making a lot of assumptions. Even assuming that the WTS is right and that Daniel is wrong.
*** it-1 pp. 452-453 Chronology ***
Jeremiah 52:28 says that in the seventh year of Nebuchadnezzar (or Nebuchadrezzar) the first group of Jewish exiles was taken to Babylon. In harmony with this, a cuneiform inscription of the Babylonian Chronicle (British Museum 21946) states: “The seventh year: In the month Kislev the king of Akkad mustered his army and marched to Hattu. He encamped against the city of Judah and on the second day of the month Adar he captured the city (and) seized (its) king [Jehoiachin]. A king of his own choice [Zedekiah] he appointed in the city (and) taking the vast tribute he brought it into Babylon.” (Assyrian and Babylonian Chronicles, by A. K. Grayson, 1975, p. 102; compare 2Ki 24:1-17; 2Ch 36:5-10.) (PICTURE, Vol. 2, p. 326)*** it-1 p. 576 Daniel ***
Early in 617 B.C.E., Jehoiachin and other “foremost men,” also young Daniel (2Ki 24:15), were taken into captivity by Nebuchadnezzar.*** it-1 p. 1269 Jehoiakim ***
Following the siege of Jerusalem during Jehoiakim’s “third year” (as vassal king), Daniel and other Judeans, including nobles and members of the royal family, were taken as exiles to Babylon. There being no record of an earlier Babylonian exile, this appears to place the event in the short reign of Jehoiachin, Jehoiakim’s successor.—2Ki 24:12-16; Jer 52:28.So when Daniel speaks of the third year of Jehoiakim . . . INSIGHT changes this to an event in the short reign of Jehoiachin! What chutzpah to claim that our own WTS chronology is better than the Bible's.
Read it again carefully!! Daniel's 'third year of Jehoiakim' is not that of his 3rd regnal year but that of his 'kingship'-NWT, or vassalage as again attested by Josephus and many other scholars.
scholar JW
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JW Insider
5 minutes ago, JW Insider said:You are relying on Josephus who apparently couldn't make up his mind whether it was 50 years or 70 years of desolation after Nebuchadnezzar's 18th year? Where did Jeremiah say there would be 70 years of complete desolation. These desolations/exiles/deportations/desecrations were obviously happening all throughout the 70 years, until Cyrus.
Josephus as a credible Jewish historian gave sufficient testimony regarding the nature of the 70 years which is in perfect harmony with our understanding of the 70 years. Read the 70 year textual corpus.
8 minutes ago, JW Insider said:If the Bible doesn't say there was exactly 70 years of "land completely desolate" then why do you need to add that to the Bible? The Bible associates the fact of these 70 years of desolations, etc., with the fact that Babylon would be given 70 years of dominance/hegemony
The Bible states clearly 70 years, plain and simple. that is why i have long maintained and finally observed by Niles' Thesis that the 70 years was of Servitude/Domination to/under/for Babylon + Exile in or at Babylon +Desolation of Jerusalem,Temple and Land of Judah.
12 minutes ago, JW Insider said:In what way did "these nations" serve the king of Babylon for 70 years if you claim that Babylon dominated these nations for 86 to 90 years?
Babylon was now a World power and during this time many nations including Judah were brought into servitude but Judah's servitude or 'serving' was of a duration specifically of 70 years as foretold specifically by Jeremiah.
14 minutes ago, JW Insider said:The difference between 629 BCE and 539 BCE is 90 years, not 70.
That is your problem
15 minutes ago, JW Insider said:Also the WTS publications cannot create this pseudo-chronology without contradicting themselves:
*** INSIGHT-1 p. 463 Chronology ***
The Bible prophecy does not allow for the application of the 70-year period to any time other than that between the desolation of Judah, accompanying Jerusalem’s destruction, and the return of the Jewish exiles to their homeland as a result of Cyrus’ decree. It clearly specifies that the 70 years would be years of devastation of the land of JudahCorrect. Most astute of those 'celebrated WT scholars.
16 minutes ago, JW Insider said:Turns out that this idea that it could only apply to the land of Judah, turns out to be false, of course, by the WTS's own admission!! When Jeremiah 25 is considered more closely, the writer recognized that the above statement was false, that "these nations" must have included ALL the nations around who were under the domination of Babylon for their 70 years:
*** ip-1 chap. 19 p. 253 par. 21 Jehovah Profanes the Pride of Tyre ***
He says: “These nations will have to serve the king of Babylon seventy years.” (Jeremiah 25:8-17, 22, 27) True, the island-city of Tyre is not subject to Babylon for a full 70 years, since the Babylonian Empire falls in 539 B.C.E. Evidently, the 70 years represents the period of Babylonia’s greatest domination—when the Babylonian royal dynasty boasts of having lifted its throne even above “the stars of God.” (Isaiah 14:13) Different nations come under that domination at different times. But at the end of 70 years, that domination will crumble.Well if that interpretation is correct then please supply the specific 70 year periods for each one of those nations. Also, verse 11 requires careful exegesis and can have different viewpoints depending on translation of the Hebrew into English.
20 minutes ago, JW Insider said:And why are you so sure that you can impose a specific meaning on the words "desolate" when the same prophecies say that Babylon itself would become a desolate wasteland for all time. Has that happened yet? I'll repeat the quote form Jeremiah, but this time pay attention to the last sentence:
(Jeremiah 25:11, 12) . . .And all this land will be reduced to ruins and will become an object of horror, and these nations will have to serve the king of Babylon for 70 years.”’ 12 “‘But when 70 years have been fulfilled, I will call to account the king of Babylon and that nation for their error,’ declares Jehovah, ‘and I will make the land of the Chal·deʹans a desolate wasteland for all time.
Because I am sure and scholar is a mighty scholar. Desolate, desolation, devastations are well defined and explained by Jeremiah. We all understand what these words mean and if you do not then your education needs to be improved. What on earth were you doing in Bethel-proofreading comics?
scholar JW
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JW Insider
34 minutes ago, JW Insider said:The fact that there was a great war in 1914 is evidence that the nations were still active. Once ANY ONE of those nations remained after 1915 (according to the final version of the readjusted prediction) it was proof that the times of these nations had not ended. Once a Jewish nation in Israel was not the ONLY nation still standing in the entire world as of the end of 1915, this became further proof that the Gentile Times had not ended.
The Great War ended up proving that the Gentile Times had not ended in 1914!
The fact of the Great War along with after signs proved that the gentile times had ended and that the Kingdom was born and modern history a long with prominent members of clergy in 1917 attested to this fact.
scholar JW
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JW Insider
35 minutes ago, JW Insider said:Once the WT relies on secular chronology it is no longer wholly Bible-based. And you can't get a date like 539 without secular chronology. And according to INSIGHT, you can't get 539 without readings from astronomy.
The use of a pivotal date derived from an Absolute date is simply constructing a scheme of Chronology and if it wholly relies on the biblical data then it becomes by definition a Biblical Chronology
scholar JW
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JW Insider
18 minutes ago, JW Insider said:There was a mopping up effort, I agree. But show me how we know this was in NEB23, or are you just guessing? And of course even if it was, we have Ezekiel's mention of inhabitants still in Jerusalem.
No guessing required just read the following portions of scriptures;
2 KI. 25: 25,26- Those Jews who remained among the ruins of Jerusalem after its destruction had fled to Egypt
Jer. 44: 1-6- Addressed to those Jews in Egypt showing that both Jerusalem and Judah had been destroyed, desolated and deserted.
Jer.44: 26-28- Only a few Jews will escape death and will return to Judah one day. Thus, those Jews who were taken to Egypt in Neb's 23 rd year were those who had fled to Egypt whilst Neb had Tyre under siege his guard Nebuzaradan attacked Egypt caught up with Jewish refugees as stated in Jer52:20 AS ALSO explained in Jer 44:28.
Escaping to Egypt did the surviving Jews no good at all for 745 souls were taken Jer 52:20- most either ended up dead , or being taken into exile to Babylon. Even fewer will have managed to survive until the return in 537 BCE.
scholar JW
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JW Insider
Are you an apostate?
1 hour ago, JW Insider said:You keep showing your "cards" which is why it is so easy to see the reason you keep bluffing.
Scholar has no need of the bluff.
1 hour ago, JW Insider said:If it goes against 1914, it doesn't matter how strong that cable of chronology is, it's the Devil's work!
Yes! It is not rocket science.
1 hour ago, JW Insider said:It turns out that the NB Chronology supports the Bible's version of events very well. The Bible says that Babylon would be dominant in the region for 70 years, and the Bible was right. The Bible is saying that all these exiles (deportations) would be associated with those 70 years. And yes, there was an important exile when Jerusalem was destroyed, and another bigger one 10 years prior to that, and another one almost as big 5 years after that date, and likely another one around 20 years before that date. The last reported exile of Jews from the land was in the 23rd year of Nebuchadnezzar, yet the Watchtower publications are forced to make claims that ignore this one, and are therefore are not supported in the Bible:
Rubbish! NB Chronology has little to confirm the Biblical record, it makes no mention of the 70 years for starters Let us listen to the Bible for NB Period is silent on these matters. There was only ONE Exile but a number of deportations -BIG DIFFERENCE.
1 hour ago, JW Insider said:The idea that Judah was completely desolate when Jerusalem was destroyed is contradicted by the fact that the land could not have been fully desolated until at least the 23rd year of Nebuchadnezzar . Almost as many were taken in the 23rd year as the 18th year:
(Jeremiah 52:28-30) . . .These are the people whom Neb·u·chad·nezʹzar took into exile: in the seventh year, 3,023 Jews. 29 In the 18th year of Neb·u·chad·nezʹzar, 832 people were taken from Jerusalem. 30 In the 23rd year of Neb·u·chad·nezʹzar, Neb·uʹzar·adʹan the chief of the guard took Jews into exile, 745 people. In all, 4,600 people were taken into exile.
No it is not. The events of Neb's 23rd year has nothing to do with the desolated state of the Land of Judah immediately after the Fall in 607 BCE as foretold by Jeremiah and confirmed by Ezra. This was simply a 'mopping up' operation of those naughty exiles who had fled to Egypt. Very naughty!!
1 hour ago, JW Insider said:So we can either accept the Bible chronology which doesn't begin the final desolation of the land until at least NEB23, or we can accept the WT chronology which puts the full desolation of the land in NEB18 (or NEB19 if counting from accession year). Personally, it makes no difference to me which Julian or Gregorian dates that scholars and Christendom and the WTS have put on these events. For me the choice is between the Bible chronology and the Watchtower chronology here. The secular chronology just happens to fit the Bible chronology, but that isn't necessarily so important. In fact this difference of a few years doesn't matter, as long as the WT is not insistent that the mistakes that got it to this point were somehow divinely guided.
The only choice is that the desolation began at the Fall as confirmed by Josephus and not something 5 years later. The secular chronology mismatches the Bible Chronology by 20 years so there is no correspondence between the two schemes.
1 hour ago, JW Insider said:t's a simple choice for my own conscience here again: Bible chronology or Watchtower chronology? I find that I can remain a Witness and still advocate for the Bible on these points, although not in the congregation where it would cause unnecessary divisions and contentions. But that is just my own conscience. Some might think it's important enough to advocate within the congregation, but I see this as giving too much attention to false stories and genealogies:
Bible Chronology is WT chronology because it is the only Chronology that elevates the bible and is wholly bible-based thus becoming a strong Cable.
scholar JW
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JW Insider
1 hour ago, JW Insider said:As others have pointed out, if the WT chronology is strong because it works, then it must be weak because it doesn't work. The entire reason, as you keep admitting, is so that 1914 will work. But 1914 doesn't work. Recall that 1914 was predicted to be the end of the Gentile Times. What was predicted failed. The Gentile Times did not end, no matter how many times CC keeps repeating that the Jews took over Palestine in or about 1914. The End of the Gentile Times was predicted to be the total collapse within a few months, and by the end of 1915 at the latest, of all authority within all national governments, kingdoms, and human political institutions around the entire world except for one. That one government that would would not collapse in 1914 would be a Jewish kingdom in Palestine that would not collapse like all the others and would be the only remaining kingdom on earth. The Gentile's time had ended, and only a Jewish government in Palestine would be successful in 1914.
Nope. it works therefore it is that strong cable as it led to the ending of the Gentile Times in 1914 CE a reality proved by the outbreak of the Great War with the birth of God's Heavenly Kingdom . You need not only to properly understand History and Chronology but Biblical Theology namely Salvation History.
scholar JW
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Ann O'Maly
28 minutes ago, Ann O'Maly said:56 minutes ago, JW Insider said:The idea that Judah was completely desolate when Jerusalem was destroyed is contradicted by the fact that the land could not have been fully desolated until at least the 23rd year of Nebuchadnezzar .
Wrong. Utter nonsense.The historical record via Josephus and the prophecies of Jeremiah make it quite clear that the land was made completely desolate at the time of the Fall in 607 BCE which was foretold to last exactly 70 years as also confirmed by the historian Ezra, the Chronicler. Neb in his 23rd year simply took Jews into Exile, those that already had fled outside of Judah.
35 minutes ago, Ann O'Maly said:And Ezekiel 33:21-29 shows that in the December/January following Jerusalem's destruction there were inhabitants living in Jerusalem's ruins. God instructed Ezekiel to tell them a message.
These verses simply reflect a report of events that had already occurred with the Fall in 607 BCE, news of which reached Ezekiel with such a prophecy reinforcing the fact that the land not only would be uninhabited but was in fact now uninhabited.
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JW Insider
36 minutes ago, JW Insider said:Yes. Just like Bible commentators all over Judaism and Christendom. But especially 19th century preachers and Second Adventists who wanted to overcome Jesus' words that no one knows the day or the hour.
But those WT scholars have given us a modern calendrical date for the Return in 537 BCE!!! Hallelujah!
scholar JW
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JW Insider
29 minutes ago, JW Insider said:It can't be that "sound" or "strong" if you are willing to move the whole decree forward by a year to insert a full year for Darius. The entire strength is built on what the INSIGHT book calls "likely" and yet INSIGHT waffles between late 538 and 537, and uses a preparation and travel schedule that would have allowed the Jews to be back in their cities in the seventh month of 538. Note the argument that Arauna makes that the decree MUST have been in the very earliest month of 538. The WTS publications cannot deny that she probably has a good point here.
WT Chronology is 'strong' because it works, it alone is functional allowing the honest-hearted to understand where one lays in the stream of time, seeing modern day fulfillment of Bible prophecy. Chronology is simply a mode of interpretation, it is not an absolute but simply relative relying on the history presented albeit not perfect. 'Likely' is good enough for me for if it works then that is all that I require for it is far superior to 'dead-end' NB Chronology which also is imperfect and contains many 'gaps' despite the preponderance of astronomical data also subject to interpretation.
Chronology is always going to be problematic in some areas and that is why Jehovah God has given to his people four prophetic witnesses even at the hands of an Angel, a strong Cable of sacred Bible Chronology corevealed in his Word.
scholar JW
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JW Insider
1 minute ago, JW Insider said:I did learn a lesson: That you were not aware of something already published in the 1930's and 1940's, and thought it was first published in the WT in the 1960's. Yet it was so simple to find older scholarship on the subject that even an non-scholar like me could find out easily. Also I see that pieces of the answer could be found in various places dating back to 1911, and the late 1800's. Even the Jewish Encyclopedia in early editions had the Gregorian date within 3 days, somehow averaging the Julian and Gregorian difference of 6 days (likely related to a different conversion method, or starting the divergence between Julian/Gregorian from a different date in their own A.M. calendar.
Have you not learnt anything?
The simple fact is that those WT scholars even in the earliest of times have put modern day dates in modern calenders-Julian/Gregorian to ancient, historic events for the benefit of modern readers today interested in the fulfillment of Bible prophecy for the very first time!!!!
scholar JW
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JW Insider
4 minutes ago, JW Insider said:Nonsense. It is precisely because this "regnal formula" does not include "King of Babylon" that you should not ignore the formula. Besides, look at how the WTS treats such "formulas" to mean something else, like "with reference to his kingship as it affected the Jewish nation." For Daniel 2:1, you have an example of this in INSIGHT:
*** it-1 p. 1186 Image ***
In the second year of Nebuchadnezzar’s kingship (evidently counting from the time of his conquest of Jerusalem in 607 B.C.E.)You've already seen Witnesses on this very topic claiming that this would have been shortly after Daniel's exile, which could be dated to about 605 BCE in the standard chronology. That would make this verse mean 603 BCE (standard). The WT claims that this 2nd year mentioned in Daniel 2:1 is about 605 BCE, and that the "real" second year of Nebuchadnezzar is about 622 BCE (WT chronology).
*** it-1 p. 190 Ashdod ***
Nebuchadnezzar, whose rule began in 624 B.C.ENonsense. You are confused.
The prophet Daniel gives several regnal formulae in his book, each of which must be fully accounted both historically and chronologically in order to provide an accurate scheme and this is what WT scholars have done successfully. With such formulae or regnal dates we can now know the date for the Return, the date of the Fall, the beginning and end of the Gentile Times, the end of the Divided monarchy and the timing of the Messiah and its 70 years all of which relate to the Danielic regnal dates.
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JW Insider
2 minutes ago, JW Insider said:No. Those dates were published in the 1960's. All the WT had to do was copy the dates straight out of Parker & Dubberstein, a book from 1942, that was already in the Bethel Library when I got there in the 1970's.
You can also find it here:
https://oi.uchicago.edu/sites/oi.uchicago.edu/files/uploads/shared/docs/saoc24.pdf
It was also here in 1938:
Waldo H. Dubberstein, "The chronology of Cyrus and Cambyses," AJSL LV (1938) 417-19.
Also, the WTS admits that this does not give a precise dating for the Return of the Jews.
*** it-1 p. 568 Cyrus ***
In view of the Bible record, Cyrus’ decree freeing the Jews to return to Jerusalem likely was made late in the year 538 or early in 537 B.C.E.Your point?
Wrong again! WT scholars had used scholarship which originally published in 1942 to publicize those facts that in a modern calenders demonstrates how the date for the Return- 537 BCE can now be known with as much certainty as the current evidence permits. Outside of that primary source (P&D) such precise information was and to date not featured in any academic literature outside of WT publications. So, full credit to those astute WT scholars!!!
11 minutes ago, JW Insider said:You constantly point out that secular works cannot choose between 586 and 587 for Nebuchadnezzar's 18th or 19th years. You point out that they can't be trusted since they can't get this precisely. It would be very hypocritical of you to not give the same measure of criticism for the fact that the Watchtower publications cannot choose between late in 538 or early in 537 for the decree.
Nonsense. Your argument is flawed because whatever the case, the date 537 BCE with its seventh has been demonstrated in our many publications as being sound historically and chronologically as it forms part of the interwoven strands of that strong cable. Such a date is prophetically established culminating in 1914 CE being validated by the 70 years. WT chronology has no such problem of Neb's 18/19th years as both relate to the timing of the Return of the Jews in 537 BCE and the Fall properly calculated in 607 BCE. The problematic 586/7 BCE dilemma is because scholars rely on NB Chronology which at that crucial point of Late Judean history has led to failure because such a chronology is simply strings of beads or a chain susceptible to failure and disappointment- the Devil's work!!
scholar JW
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Ann O Maly
2 minutes ago, Ann O'Maly said:I wasn't stumped. I couldn't be bothered helping you. You can't be bothered studying the astronomical evidence, so I can't be bothered answering your frivolous questions.
You were well and truly stumped, done over like the turkey sitting on your Xmas table. the strong cable of WT chronology is not reliant on astronomical evidence alone but simply to affix a reliable, historical, pivotal date for the Fall of Babylon in 539 BCE in combination of four prophetic witnesses in the stream of time that validates WT Bible Chronology.
By the way how is it that you refuse to post your academic qualifications. Alan de Fool has done so and so has the said scholar?
scholar JW
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JW Insider
4 minutes ago, JW Insider said:Not really. This does not necessarily follow. You already know the example of Labashi-Marduk, for which we have the explanation readily available on the business/contract tablets. If the name of the year for the sake of the calendar is already called for the king "X" who began that year on Nisan 1, then the calendar identifies it as year 1 of king "X."
Nonsense. The prophet Daniel referred to the 'first year of Darius' in Da 9:1;11:1 so its is a regnal formula that cannot be ignored thus also providing essential historical data which in turn makes our Chronology, a strong cable not just like the chain of NB Chronology.
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17 hours ago, JW Insider said:
The Watchtower that quoted the Jewish Encyclopedia above made use of those same dates to include the following:
*** w65 9/15 p. 567 A Pivotal Date in History ***
If we proceed according to the cuneiform inscriptions, rather than the Bible, we have to take the position that Darius the Mede and Cyrus the Persian reigned concurrently for a time. According to this, the accession year (an incomplete lunar year) of Cyrus as king of Babylon began on October 23 of 539 B.C.E., when he entered the city (by day) after its capture by his troops. Hence his first regnal year (a full lunar year) began on Nisan 1 of 538 B.C.E., or on March 17/18 of 538 B.C.E., Gregorian time.
The cuneiform tablet entitled “Strassmaier, Cyrus No. 11” mentions Cyrus’ first regnal year. By this tablet it is calculated that this year began March 17/18, 538 B.C.E., and it ended on March 4/5 of 537 B.C.E., Gregorian time. So Cyrus’ second regnal year began the next day, on March 5/6, 537 B.C.E. In this case Cyrus’ decree must have been made before this latter date that is, late in the year 538 or early in 537 B.C.E. See pages 14, 29 of Babylonian Chronology 626 B.C.-A.D. 75, edition of 1956, by Parker and Dubberstein.JW Insider
Now that you have finally answered my simple question that had stumped the likes of Alan de Fool and Ann O'Maly, the scholarly pretenders you indeed had to rely on what the 'celebrated' WT scholars had first published on this subject as to the precise dating for the Return of the Jews under Cyrus for the first time ever published. I am not aware of such regnal data being located with modern calendars published in the academic literature for the very first time.
You should learn a lesson from this that our WT scholars have a long scholarly tradition in doing Chronology and understanding calendrical systems thus we can have confidence that despite COJ'S so-called 17 lines of secular evidence, the strong cable of WT Bible Chronology based on four witnesses alone remains accurate, faithful and true.
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SECULAR EVIDENCE and NEO-BABYLONIAN CHRONOLOGY (Nebuchadnezzar, Cyrus, etc.)
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Posted
Alan de Fool
I accept fully the contents of the Insight book especially its articles on Chronology for these are scholarly and clearly written but I cannot be responsible for any deficiency on your part in understanding such information. WT scholars have used P& D in its publications from the time when it was first published so I do not believe there are any major issues except for the fact that it does not account foe the brief reign of Darius.
The Insight article under 'CYRUS' is of excellent scholarship and well balanced covering all factors that are relevant in the correct dating of the Return so there is no need to write to the Society at this time.
I simply affirm what is written in the above article which i believe fully answers your query. It is not known precisely when Cyrus made the public and written proclamation only that these two events occurred in his 'first year' but this is a bigger problem for you as you wish to compress matters too much.
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