Srecko Sostar

I agree, again.
But why would words that carry Moral and Ethical obligation for all (elders and rank and file members),  ... why there is a need for such selection about "spiritual food" for elders that is not allowed to be read by all other members ("Shepherd book" is what i have in mind at moment)? 
 
 
 

BUT all JWs are supposed to be equal. No clergy class or all clergy class .  All brothers. 
No hierarchy. And it's supposed to be 'the truth'.  So why would you need hidden information ? 
After all its not supposed to be an organisation of the world is it ? 
But remember Tom the whole Elders book is available to read online so we know it is a 'smoking gun'. 
 

"...it would not be unchristian to report the matter to the authorities.."
All people sometimes need advice, support, opinions on some of the things they are facing. It is evident from this segment that the WT Organization has raised generations of members who seeking permission for some activity in their own lives because they do not dare to make decisions on their own, without organization, which perhaps may "embarrass God and his visible organization."
Would it be interesting to find out how that came about? Why can't members exist without their leaders and their instructions, and why can't leaders stop deciding for their members?
 
:))) general distribution

WHY .... doesn't Jehovah God consider warfare ... murder?
It seems clear to me that Jehovah allows civil governments to run their own affairs as they see fit, and even has no objection to them judging and executing wrongdoers ... and even commands us to be in subjection to these governments, as even the very worst of them are better than anarchy.
People generally misinterpret the scripture that say " Thou shalt not kill." where the scripture more actually says "Thou shalt not murder".
There is a very real difference.  A sovereign government, executing a wrongdoer is implementing the political will of that government ... whether it be a government the size of a continent .. or an extended family sized tribe of Jewish sheepherders living way out in the middle of nowhere, living in tents, governed by a patriarch.
I have not been able to find in the Bible where actual warfare, committed by any sovereign group, is considered to be murder ... either by the perpetrators of the war, or the defenders of the war against them, except in the case of "war crimes" against non combatants and other cases.
Did you know it is legal to drop napalm on civilians in war, from an aircraft ... but not from a flame thrower from a soldier on the ground?
....but I digress.
Even people that warred against the Jews  were not considered murderers..... they were considered warriors.
I am working on getting this all straight in my mind now ... as there seems to be a profound truth buried in this stream of thought, somewhere, but I cannot get it to crystallize, or perhaps it is approaching 3AM, and I am too tired to think about it.
But whatever it is that is ... what profound basic principle that I am missing ...is based on having a correct answer  as to WHY ... WHY does God NOT consider warfare to be murder.
I suspect when I figure it out, it will be like driving down a road in a southerly direction, thinking you are going North ... and then you see that landmark or sign that indicates you are really going South ... and that feeling you get when your whole frame of reference rotates in your head, like the world just rotated 180 degrees.
It's like deja vu, and geography, combined.
Perhaps my premise is faulty, but I don't think so.
Please feel free to destroy my premise, or my stream of thought, or my conclusions.
I try to be "loyal" to whatever is true, and not an agenda of defending an agenda.
Knowing "WHY?" things are the way they are, is the key to good philosophy.
Bad philosophy will waste our lives, which are pitifully short.
 
 
 
 

Only one activity? (although there are more) The very activity that brings people to consider suicide?  The very activity that brings WT’s sins to light – before the world’s eyes? The very activity that breaks up families?  We’re not talking about just a few people who have suffered from this “one” activity, but thousands.  I’m not referring to gross sin such as murder, where that someone that should be in jail.  Or pedophilia, where that someone, should also be in jail (but we know in innumerable cases, is not).    
It is men, unrighteously judging men as in the case of Ray Franz – one of thousands who met with the same outcome for rejecting lies.  Who is at the root of this judgment, this decree, but those who set the guidelines for it?  Rev 13:11,12
John 16:3,4 – “They will do such things because they have not known the Father or me. 4 I have told you this, so that when their time comes you will remember that I warned you about them.
“Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16 By their fruit you will recognize them”  Matt 7:15,16a
We recognize them by their teachings, their human doctrines, that always fail. Jesus warned of those who would carry out John 16:2, and that they are “false prophets” found “among” his anointed ones – his “elect”. 
Another way it is said,
 “For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect”  Matt 24:24
The love shown for one another in the organization is conditional.  It is not the love that Christ taught through his teachings. 
"If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47 And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that?"   Matt 5:46,47
Only through the complete anointed Body of Christ's priests, would love be manifested by the utilization of their gifts of Holy Spirit.  They would be teaching the people God’s laws in Christ.  Mal 2:7; 1 Pet 2:5,9; Rom chapter 12.  They would not be removed for disagreeing with the GB.  Matt 24:48-51; Rev 13:11,12,15   If the Body was working as one under Christ, showing love and respect toward each other, everyone would benefit from that love and guidance. 
But, instead, a huge army of “Gentile” elders stumble over their judgments and cause families to be crushed. Joel 1:3-9; Rev 9:7-10  It would be disingenuous to realize this, and then dismiss it by saying, “but sometimes we must forgive them”, and that it is an act of sacred service, a “Christian duty”.   No!  Not at all.  It is blasphemy.  It is blindness to Christ’s teachings and God's standards toward His priesthood.   Sacred service is to be offered by God’s priests of His Temple, not by those who claim to “represent” them; trampling them into submission. Ezek 44:6-9; Matt 24:15,16; 2 Thess 2:3,4; Rev 11:1,2  For those elders who cry, I hope beyond hope, that they wake up, and remove themselves from the organization. They are working against their conscience, why?  Out of fear of losing status?  Out of fear of losing family?  Why do they cry?
God sees all of this.  He sees victims of a prejudiced justice system that destroys.  Jesus knew his people would come against an authority that would unrighteously judge them. Satan is behind it, and God allows it.  Luke 22:31; 2 Thess 2:9-12
I’ve quoted this before, and I remember once you also did, I suppose when warning of what the organization should not be like, but correct me if I'm wrong.  
“A dispute also arose among them as to which of them was considered to be greatest. 25 Jesus said to them, “The kings of the Gentiles (“Gentile” elder body) lord it over them (over  JWs); and those who exercise authority over them call themselves Benefactors (GB). 26 But you are not to be like that. Instead, the greatest among you should be like the youngest, and the one who rules like the one who serves. 27 For who is greater, the one who is at the table or the one who serves? Is it not the one who is at the table? But I am among you as one who serves.” 
To be “like that” obviously, is not based on Christ’s love.  But, it is “like that” – exactly like that – in the organization.  Luke 22:24-27  The “Gentile” elder kings lord it over JWs, and those who exercise authority over the elders, are the members of the GB - “Benefactors”. 
People in the world are not blind to the organization’s hypocrisy.  It is the majority of JWs who refuse to see it.  For those few who do see it, one must ask why they support hypocrisy. 
 Beasts are known to destroy.  Dan 7:23; 8:10; Rev 13:1,2,5-8,11,12,14-18
 
 
 http://pearl-sign.blogspot.com/
 
 
 

Sorry, but the answer is yes, I have seen most Watchtower leaders practicing love among one another, especially to the flock, and also practicing love to those we might otherwise consider our enemies when it comes to a preaching, and giving of our time to take a message of hope to them.
The kinds of elders or leaders who end up being involved in disfellowshipping those who disagree with doctrine are only working on one part of what they consider to be a Christian duty. I agree that it might show a lack of love with some, but only in that one activity, and not because most of them realize the lack of love. To most it's just a painful job that someone has to do. I know for a fact that elders sometimes cry during and after a judicial meeting. They imagine they are doing an act of sacred service.
(John 16:2) . . .Men will expel YOU from the synagogue. In fact, the hour is coming when everyone that kills YOU will imagine he has rendered a sacred service to God.
But sometimes we must forgive them, for they know not what they do. And other times, perhaps most of the time, they are doing the right thing. They ARE performing an act of sacred service. There is a scriptural basis for different versions of this practice.

Before Matt 5:48 –
“You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you, 45 that you may be sons of your Father in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. 46 For if you love those who love you, what reward have you? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? 47 And if you greet your brethren only, what do you do more than others? Do not even the tax collectors do so? 48 Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect.
 
What makes an individual “perfect” according to these scriptures?  Love, which fulfills the law.  Can you see the WT leaders practicing anything that Jesus stated in these scriptures?  JWs are taught to love their own.   If anyone is ousted, they are considered “dead”. John 16:2; Rev 13:15 Those who leave the organization are mostly wiped out of the brain of their loved ones.  Do the leaders of the WT love their brothers and sisters in Christ if these ones approach their leaders about their flaws in understanding scriptures…if they suggest that their doctrine is wrong?   What happened to Ray Franz?  Is the label of “apostate”, called loving one’s neighbor as yourself?  Ray Franz did not sin; yet the proverbial sword came down upon him, and he was labeled as “dead”. 
“Do not be like Cain, who belonged to the evil one and murdered his brother. And why did he murder him? Because his own actions were evil and his brother’s were righteous.”  1 John 3:12
The only example JWs have for the production of “fruit”, is that of their leaders who claim to be anointed. The scriptures in Matt 7 pertain to teachings.  The anointed are “inspired” by Holy Spirit – it is “poured” into one’s heart.  Rom 5:5  If that gift is not used, one can lose it.  Matt 25:19-30 The reason the GB admit they are not inspired, is because the leaders of the organization made judgment calls not based on Holy Spirit’s guidance, but on their own speculation – their own wisdom, and not that of Christ. They have to hide the fact somehow, so the falsehood is created that anointed are not inspired.  The truth is, they have lost Holy Spirit that was once in their heart.  1 Pet 2:8; 2 Pet 3:17; 1 John 2:19; Rev 8:10,11
They are your only examples of receiving any “fruit” that they claim is derived from Christ.  Matt 24:24
Our own assumptions, actions, attitudes can lead to sin.  Paul and Barnabas had an argument over Mark.  Yet, both men spoke the truth of Christ. Obviously, love won out because Mark was mentioned by Paul later on.  Refinement from sin takes time. Learning obedience to the Father and Jesus doesn’t happen overnight.  Even Jesus was “perfected” through his endurance while on the earth.  Not that he sinned, but that he “learned obedience”:
“Although he was the Son, he learned obedience from what he suffered. 9 After he was perfected, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him”  Heb 5:8,9
“he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death -- even to death on a cross.”  Phil 2:8
Two things appear to bring about perfection.  Loving one another, and obeying God’s laws fulfilled in Christ.  They are tied together.  Mark 12:28-31
"I sanctify myself for them, so that they also may be sanctified by the truth.”  John 17:19
“Sanctify” - to make holy, i.e. (ceremonially) purify or consecrate
“All wrongdoing is sin, and there is sin that does not lead to death.18 We know that anyone born of God does not continue to sin; the One who was born of God keeps them safe, and the evil one cannot harm them. 1 John 5:17,18
Are the WT leaders “sanctified/purified by the truth” through their obedience to Christ’s direction?  Not if they teach falsehoods and excuse them as minor bumps on the historical road of the WT’s existence! (G. Jackson’s latest with the barking dog)  Not if they refuse to budge on falsehoods set in place.    
Even though Jesus had to learn obedience to the Father, he still taught only truth from God while on earth. He is our pattern to follow.   (Col 2:5; 2 Tim 1:7; Titus 1:8; Rev 3:19) The Holy Spirit is the source of truth. John 16:3  Preaching falsehoods is evidence of an anointed one segregated from the vine of Christ.  No one can claim to be a “faithful slave” of Christ, if they preach an untruth!
“Remain in me, as I also remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me. I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. 6 If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned. 7 If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. 8 This is to my Father’s glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples.”  John 15:4-8
Once again, this “fruit” is speaking about truth from God.  A faithful one in Christ will produce truth sourced in Holy Spirit which flows from the vine, to the branches – to the heart. 
A good man brings good things out of the good stored up in his heart, and an evil man brings evil things out of the evil stored up in his heart. For the mouth speaks what the heart is full of.  Luke 6:45
It is important to remember that the anointed have inscribed upon their hearts, the laws of God; again, fulfilled in love.  Heb 8:10; Rom 13:8; Gal 5:14   Additional rules, laws, regulations, staunch adherence to the “two witness rule”, are not the workings of the Holy Spirit, but purely the admonitions made by men.  The organization carries around two bibles – one, barely used but is “inspired” by God, and one totally leaned upon, and is inspired by the hearts and minds of men.   
"They worship me in vain; their teachings are merely human rules.'"  Matt 15:9
"These rules, which have to do with things that are all destined to perish with use, are based on merely human commands and teachings."  Col 2:22
The two "bibles" combined, will not work for the common good, as is evident in the court system today.  

 
 
 
 

I am fully agree how only this 7 emoji can't present our reactions on something :))

I am fully agree how only this 7 emoji can't present our reactions on something :))

Human life is made of, at least, two aspects (this is limited view, of course): What we want to do and what we doing. 
About producing: spiritual food  (fruit). If Jesus is Source of truthful spiritual food  that is made, presented and spread TODAY through humans as tools, as agents, as means of transmission, then it would be normal to believe how such "fruit" is (have to be) without blame.
About producing: physical and verbal deeds (fruit). If People are imperfect free will individuals who can't do nothing without errors, than we need to give and ask for forgiveness. 
But because nothing is Black and White and nothing about Organized Religion is clear, we shall never have (i am sort of pesimist) nothing that is flawless. 

The admin should come up with a new emoji/response that means you have said some very interesting thought-provoking things, and some of them are obviously right, but that there's enough I disagree with that I don't want to give it a full up-vote.

It all goes back to..."A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit."  Matt 7:18
Jesus' thinking on this matter was purely black and white.  
 “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. 16 You will know them by their fruits."
 "Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit." 
 "Therefore by their fruits you will know them."
Matt 7:15-20

I don't know, of course, what sort of feeling and in what degree, level, is in soul of JW members while obeys commands about not speaking, greeting with ex-JW. Is that hate, animosity, anger, pride ...? But, it is condition, human relation that need to be book written about it.  :))

Because of possibility (proved until now) how some dishes are indeed poisoned on the table with other food, what will be advice, how to give warning to people around the table to not eat specific food?

I don't know, of course, what sort of feeling and in what degree, level, is in soul of JW members while obeys commands about not speaking, greeting with ex-JW. Is that hate, animosity, anger, pride ...? But, it is condition, human relation that need to be book written about it.  :))

Because of possibility (proved until now) how some dishes are indeed poisoned on the table with other food, what will be advice, how to give warning to people around the table to not eat specific food?

Since the time that the supposed Hunchback of Notre Dame swung from the bells in the bell tower, CLERGY has been afforded special dispensations by the civil authorities.
Even the civil authorities are in many governments referred to as "ministers".
In Richmond Virginia, circa 1965 Pioneers, those who spent 100 hours a month in the ministry .... and BEFORE the idea was promoted that we were "ordained" ministers .... and LONG before the GB started promoting the idea that those involved in lawsuits were "Clergy", these Brothers WERE granted exemption to military service with a "4-D" classification as "Ministers of Religion"
I WAS THERE AND SAW IT.
I was threatened with five years in the Federal Penitentiary, and when I told them I was ready to go ... I got the "I-O" classification, and exemption as a conscientious objector.
 

TTH:
The First Amendment to the United States Constitution prevents the government from making laws which regulate an establishment of religion, prohibit the free exercise of religion, among other things.
What this means is that if inside any particular religion they want to believe that God is a flying spaghetti monster, and call their people Giraffes, and slaughter goats and bathe in the blood, or play with snakes  ... the government is FORBIDDEN to interfere with that ... unless ... unless it is against public policy, and is a clear and present danger.
The Governing Body has declared that all Jehovah's Witnesses are ORDAINED Ministers of the Gospel ... a practice I believe was started during the Vietnam War to try and get Draft deferments. At least it was in place when I reported to the draft board in 1965 at the Armed Forces Entrance and Examining Station (AFEES), in Richmond Virginia, and a legal theory that I presented to those from my community who interrogated me in the Draft Board conference room with, if memory serves, 12 people whose job it was to classify me as to my Draft status.
I understand what you are saying, TTH and MOST of it is true, but that is COMPLETELY beside the point.
If you claim to be a hippopotamus, and you are RECOGNIZED as an ordained  hippopotamus,  don't be surprised that you are not allowed to book a room at the local Hotel.
Further, if you claim to be a hippopotamus, the by extension, your children are hippos,  you cannot without being a hypocrite deride anyone for looking at you, and looking at your son or daughter, and observing correctly that you are not.
Particularly ... and most importantly, if the culture of your religion has declared that "hippopotamusity" is a "snare and a racket", and that organized herds of hippos are "Babylon the Great", and that their "ordained" leaders are agents of Satan.
As a teenager, and in my early 20's, my best friend growing up used to Pioneer, and he bragged to me that he could go into prisons almost any time he wanted to "minister" to the inmates there by representing himself as "clergy", which I thought was "juking" the system.
Later, he and my first wife ran off together ... but I digress.
The Governing Body has repeatedly represented themselves to Courts as ministers, and to get special legal privileges, by representing themselves as clergy.
BUT ... you and I have read NOTHING about this in any of the Society's publications .. and heard NOTHING about this at the Kingdom Hall or at any Assemblies or Convention .... while at the SAME TIME telling us that the GB and Elders, and Branch people and we ourselves here at the bottom of the food chain ... ARE ALL EQUAL. (Let's all hold hands in a circle, and sing the Pepsi song).
Either we ARE all equal .... or we are NOT.
If we are in reality (gimmee a break!) then the newly baptized 8 year old girl is not only an ordained minister ... but is entitled to the legal privileges of "clergy", because she is in fact a "clergy person"
Either we ARE all equal .... or we are NOT.
THAT is what we have represented as fact ....under sworn oath before God in courts of law ... when  JWs demand the rights of "Clergy".
So ... on one hand we declare inwardly that we are NOT clergy, despicable agents of Satan as they are, perverting the Word of God, but are all equal ordained ministers at the Kingdom Hall ... from the Governing Body, all the way down to the little 8 year old baptized Sister ... and to the courts we declare that we ARE clergy.
Either we ARE all equal .... or we are NOT.
I guarantee that any rank-and-file Jehovah's Witnesses of my generation that heard that would be ashamed, and nauseous at the very idea that we shared legal privileges with the "serpents and vipers".
According to that ... the little 8 year old Sister has the legal right to be privy to people's secrets of every sort, confessed to her, and is legally protected from divulging those secrets to ANYBODY, if she so decides to do so.
You can't have it BOTH ways.

SOMEBODY is being conned ... either the courts ... or us.
There is no third choice.
Either we ARE all equal .... or we are NOT.
You can't have it BOTH ways.
 

JW Org pretends not to have clergy - laity distinction.
And some of the anointed are female whilst here on earth. It seems that spirit persons do not have a gender.
However, were all angels that appeared as humans on earth, men ?  
Quote Srecko. " BUT all are (male and female) ordained ministers. :))"  Um, but is this after they are baptised, or is it when they put in a Report sheet for doing ministry ? 
The plot thickens. 

Yes, and this bring more confusion. JWorg don't have clergy-laity distinction, but have heavenly and earthly class, also have priesthood and not priesthood class, anointed and not anointed class, males as Heads and females as not Heads - BUT all are (male and female) ordained ministers. :))

You noticed this very well. Thanks !
How we would know it is about Catholic priests if news reporters didn't mentioned their religious affiliation? :))
Perhaps Tom thinking about rank and file Catholic members ? But rank and file Catholic are mere "laity". Inside JWorg rank and file members are not "laity" :)))

You are right in conclusion how "involved parties" are those who may decide.
WT elders, when came to position to hear about something  comes to be also "involved parties" because they have information. Even more, they alone examining such information and classified them into "truth" or "lies". Well, if this serious men, elders, have such crucial knowledge about crime act, what making them to be without responsibility toward - truth, justice, involved parties and victim first?
Do we have to mention advice's made by many of this same elders, not to go to "worldly courts" because of god's name and organization honor?
Perhaps "public" is all those people who don't know nothing or not know enough about CSA and Court cases in JWorg? Then will have at least two class: 1) JW people Public and 2) Worldly people Public. Which of this two groups will be more devastated after WT "kickback"? Or will these WT kickback be presented in two envelops, one for worldly public and one for JW public?

Everyone is equal ........ but some are more equal than others.

Yes, and this bring more confusion. JWorg don't have clergy-laity distinction, but have heavenly and earthly class, also have priesthood and not priesthood class, anointed and not anointed class, males as Heads and females as not Heads - BUT all are (male and female) ordained ministers. :))

Yes, this verses are somehow in opposition to Peter's words about, obey god more than men. But you made good choose to show César Chávez how GB brake this Jesus' commands. Giving information to secular authorities they ask for, about CSA inside JWorg is not something that would make god to look bad or dishonor His Name, but and only make WT Society, JWorg  and GB leaders to look as any other human organization. That is something what make them scary.
Because it would bring shame to Them not to Him !!
I guess how God can handle The Truth, all sort of Truths. But human can't !! The Truth, in cases like this when it have role of revealing bad things, has only one outcome - to destroy self made image. Until you don't get to that point, people will continue with same manner (bad manner) of behavior.
Well, Revealing The Truth is braking point, to take the blame and make change for better .....or to stay living in denying mode (fantasy world) continue with cognitive dissonance and choose "explanations" that will support The Lie.