Jaocb

The is talking about two events. Evangelicals believe similar things. See the movie, the Fire Next Time!  This movie is not about an event that takes place 1000 years after Armageddon. The nations turn on God's worshipers triggers Armageddon!  Just because the Bible calls the nations at the four corners of the earth the same thing, does not make these events the same. These issues have been addressed repeatedly in our publications.

2 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

So why couldn't the GB / Watchtower Soc' just sometimes say 'We do not know' Wouldn't that be a more humble way, and wouldn't that be waiting on God to give them an answer ?@JW Insider

i can agree with that.

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As for @Jaocb 's idea that one should not criticise if one does not have an alternative answer. That is a very crazy notion. 

But each to their own

Jacob did not say that. Go back and reread what @Jacob said! I said nothing about what someone should or should NOT do. I made an observation. Most of the time they don't have better solutions. When you grapple with somethng you find out how hard it is and the complexity of it and that brings a measure of humility and respect. I can criticize a ton of stuff until i actually have the job of doing it.

Most apostates are just hyperventilating on every topic and issue imaginable because it is quite ok to be have open season on JWs. their fellows don't even critique them because they are on their side. Very view if any would give any credit at all to JWs for anything.

I said nothing of constructive critiques. Much of what @JW Insider says is not constructive. he  is just blowing wind. I like him. I think he is trying to be honest, but he is like a person who likes to talk.

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@JW Insider You seem the most balanced person on here. Keep up the good work.  

That is funny. Much of what he says is irrelevant or blind due to his own biases. I wonder why @JW Insider is still even a JW. Or is that just a ploy?

  @JW Insider

Dude you are a red herring! I agree with some of your most basic ideas, but listing all this stuff serves no basic purpose but to create noise. We were told to search for the sign in our day. That is what they were supposed to do. Poor and bad interpretations in the past have little to say about the credibility of the current interpretations!

7 hours ago, JW Insider said:

I have no problem understanding that these are the last days. Paul warned Timothy that Timothy that (because he was in the last days) he would have to deal with critical times, people who only loved themselves, people who were disloyal, people with no natural affection, etc., and this helped Timothy realize the times he was living in, and what to expect. I have no problem with the idea that many things have gone from bad to worse since that first century, and that this system doesn't seem like it can go on any longer. And all these evidences of the last days make us hope and pray for a new system that ever so much closer.

By the way, when you mention the question "how do we know he is near at the door?" you might realize that you are inadvertently exposing one of the inconsistencies of our interpretation of Matthew 24. In our interpretation, Jesus is already present, and THEN the signs supposedly arrive over the next 104-plus years. 

The topic of the "sign" is another one for another discussion. Many persons, including Russell himself, read Matthew 24 to prove that Jesus was warning the disciples that they should NOT look for any advance signs on earth because none would be given. Jesus said that wars and earthquakes, and famine, and pestilence and persecution etc., would continue to go on just as it always had (for the last 18 centuries, per Russell), but that these are NOT signs of the end, and not to be quickly shaken by such things. Russell seemed to ignore, however, that the warning also included not to start listening to people who look at these as signs and will therefore say that Jesus is here or there, but just not visible to them right now. Because when the parousia occurs, it will actually be without any extra warning; it will come as a thief in the night, and it won't be invisible, but suddenly and brightly, as visible as lightning that shines from side of the heavens all the way to the other side. In other words, Matthew 24 is the opposite of a "composite sign." 

The actual sign, would appear in the heavens when it was too late to escape. Here is where Russell and Second Adventists, especially, went wrong. They thought that they could already see those signs in the heavens. They saw them in 1780 and 1833, which perfectly fit the belief that the last days had begun in 1799. The rest of this post will be excerpts from Studies in the Scriptures, Vol 4, to show how easy it is to lock in on "signs" and how strongly entrenched these beliefs were, so that the WTS was promoting these specific teachings even until the 1930's. I have skipped about a dozen secular references that Russell quotes to show just how widely recognized these "signs" were from other authorities, much like our more current references to how secular authorities recognize how the world changed in 1914:

And they were given into her power, and she wore out the saints of the Most High for a time, times and a half time--1260 years--until A.D. 1799. And this long persecution, in which "many were purified and made white and tried," and in which the Mother of Harlots was "drunk with the blood of the saints and the martyrs of Jesus" (Rev. 17:6) ended as we have already shown, practically in 1776 and actually in 1799 when the Pope and his authority were humiliated before the World.*

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Understanding clearly, then, that it is signs that will follow the tribulation "of those days" that our Lord refers to, we inquire respecting the very definitely described signs--the darkening of the sun and moon, and the falling of the stars. . . .

On May 19, 1780 (still "in those days," the 1260 years of Papal power, but after that power had begun to wane and the brunt of the tribulation had passed) a phenomenal darkening of the sun occurred, for which scientists of that time and since have never been able to account. That this was no ordinary occurrence is sufficiently established by the following competent testimony--

The noted astronomer Herschel, says:

"The dark day in Northern America was one of those wonderful phenomena of nature which will always be read of with interest, but which philosophy is at a loss to explain."

Webster's Dictionary, 1869 edition, under the head of Vocabulary of Noted Names, says:

"The dark day, May 19, 1780--so called on account of a remarkable darkness on that day extending over all New England. In some places, persons could not see to read common print in the open air for several hours together. Birds sang their evening songs, disappeared, and became silent; fowls went to roost; cattle sought the barn-yard; and candles were lighted in the houses. The obscuration began about ten o'clock in the morning, and continued till the middle of the next night, but with differences of degree of duration in different places." . . .

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The Falling Stars

Half a century passed before the next sign appeared, the falling of the stars from heaven, as when a fig tree casteth her unripe fruit when shaken of a mighty wind. Our Lord's words found a fulfilment (though not their complete and only fulfilment, as we shall see later) in the wonderful meteoric showers of the early morning of Nov. 13, 1833. Those inclined to quibble by urging that "the fixed stars did not fall" are reminded that our Lord said nothing about fixed stars falling, and that fixed stars could not fall: their falling would prove that they were not fixed. The Scriptures do not distinguish between stars and meteors as is commonly done in our day.

Shooting stars, and even meteoric showers are not uncommon every year, and some years more than others. It is computed that 400,000 small meteors fall to our earth annually. But these are nothing in comparison to the great shower of Nov. 13, 1833, in which millions on millions fell.

 

On 1/17/2019 at 3:14 PM, JOHN BUTLER said:

@JW Insider Thank you for your answers.

I cannot understand why God would allow His "chosen faithful slave" to make so many mistakes. It makes no sense to me.

If you were teaching a child any subject, you would teach them properly, give them true good advice, give them accurate information. 

I can't understand why people are so judgmental and less humble about understanding that interpreting Bible prophecy is difficult AND MADE SO ON PURPOSE. Scripture alone tells us that you can be a true prophet or even a true disciple and get prophecy WRONG! Daniel and Revelation both state that prophecy is sealed for a time. Until that time, EVERYONE, I MEAN EVERYONE, true Christian and false alike will get it wrong! Does that mean no Christian should ever try? Wouldn't that portray a lack of faith? Only people who specialize in ridicule wont see the distinction.

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Why would you let them get it all wrong ? What purpose is there in even having an Organisation that carries your name, if you give that organisation false information or allow it to use false information ?  There is no sense, and, there is no LOVE in doing so. 

God is LOVE, I cannot see that He would allow such misguidance in an organisation that HE would have His own name on. 

Yes we know how God allowed the Nation of Israel to go astray etc, but according to some on here, we are so very close to the END that there is no time for all this misinformation and 'mistakes'. 

Some would say it's a testing, but for what ?  Why would anyone want to stay in an organisation that cannot be trusted to teach truth ? 

And, how can anyone go into the ministry with lies, or mistakes ?  Do you think that is really what God wants ? 

Some of this is already address and @JW Insider has already stated that knowledge is imperfect all the time no matter what. We don't ahve perfect knowledge.

So why?  People are drawn to the TRUTH because They hear Jesus voice. Anyone who left Christendom like i did at 10 are looking for Jesus' voice they are not satisfied with the hypocrisy.  Would God use such an individual who is wrong, imperfect??? YES. Jesus purposefully said and did things to cause people to stumble. They were not his sheep!

(Acts 17:26, 27) 26 And he made out of one man every nation of men to dwell on the entire surface of the earth, and he decreed the appointed times and the set limits of where men would dwell, 27 so that they would seek God, if they might grope for him and really find him, although, in fact, he is not far off from each one of us. . .

John 6:68 says: " Simon Peter answered him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life." THey did not understand why jesus was speaking such "blasphemy."

JWs have gotten CERTAIN THINGS WRONG! Mainly prophecy which i believe I've demonstrated to be Scripturally possible for the Righteous to do. They don't give up however. For this reason it emboldens the wicked in their ridicule!

That is so idiotic! That is so stupid and unreasonable! But it is also Scriptural. God has his own reasons. We may not understand them all or know HOW God is going to save all his faithful sheep.

Read 1 Corinthians 1 (Yes take time to read it below)

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18For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 19For it is written:

“I will destroy the wisdom of the wise;

the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate.”b

20Where is the wise man? Where is the scribe? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? 21For since in the wisdom of God, the world through its wisdom did not know Him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.

22Jews demand signs and Greeks search for wisdom, 23but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, 24but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.

25For the foolishness of God is wiser than man’s wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than man’s strength.

Wisdom from God

26Brothers, consider the time of your calling: Not many of you were wise by human standards; not many were powerful; not many were of noble birth. 27But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong. 28He chose the lowly and despised things of the world, and the things that are not, to nullify the things that are, 29so that no one may boast in His presence.

30It is because of Him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God: our righteousness, holiness, and redemption. 31Therefore, as it is written: “Let him who boasts boast in the Lord.”c

I think the teaching regarding the Issue of Universal Sovereignty answers much of this but it may not be the complete answer. Despite all the pain, hardship, set backs, disappointments, persecution, confusion, God can find his sheep and his sheep will stick with him no matter what. If his sheep mess up his name it will  work out Big when he make the ridicule of the ridiculers magnify his Name. Throughout Scripture we see God come up against the impossible. God brings the proud low. I always say "God loves Red Sea events." Events that no one can see a way out of. It is at these times God magnifies himself. Babylon was impenetrable. It had double walls. But how did it fall? Seriously? The way Babylon fell in light of Nebuchadnezzar's boasts is hilarious! JAR DROPPING! Beyond REAL!  Sennacherib made big boasts about how God turned on Hezekiah. How NONE OF THE GODS have been able to save the nations out of his hands!  Hezekiah  has enemies from outside Jerusalem's walls but guess what??? Sennacherib when bowing to his god, could not save himself from his own children! He could not save himself from the persons he gave birth to!  HOw do you like that for big boasts? Babylon in prophecy sits as a Queen and will never see mourning. What is her end? God called A WHOLE NATION out of exile and restored them to their land. To critics this was OBVIOUSLY a FABLE, a myth they said! Impossible!  until they found archaeological evidence such as the Cyrus Cylinder. A WHOLE NATION! What are the chances! That alone would have wiped out the Abrahamic faith alone had it not happened! the fact they came out of exile is a Witness to us all!

These themes run throughout the Bible. If you think the ridicule is high now. It will get even worse.

2 Peter 3:3, 4 says: 3 First of all know this, that in the last days ridiculers will come with their ridicule, proceeding according to their own desires 4 and saying: “Where is this promised presence of his? Why, from the day our forefathers fell asleep in death, all things are continuing exactly as they were from creation’s beginning.”

Psalm 92:7 says:  7 When the wicked ones sprout as the vegetation And all the practicers of what is hurtful blossom forth, It is that they may be annihilated forever.

Hab 2:3 says: " For the vision is yet for its appointed time,And it is rushing toward its end, and it will not lie. Even if it should delay, keep in expectation of it! For it will without fail come true. It will not be late! "

God has a sense of humor. he loves puns and he will pun the devil and all his enemies to death! They will be fools sick to their stomachs! But his righteous ones will get away safe!

Psalm 119:165 says: 165 Abundant peace belongs to those loving your law, And for them there is no stumbling block.

8 hours ago, JW Insider said:

"But the requirement of jws is to adhere to ALL teachings of wt unless you would like to lose your family or in the case of not having family, be expelled."

I don't consider that a requirement. I consider it an opinion of a few. It was an opinion of many more in the 1980's, of course, but this has been mitigated with the more recent explicit admissions of fallibility in both doctrine and in organizational decisions. Brother Jackson echoed this when he said, in Australia recently, that it would be presumptuous for the GB to consider themselves God's only mouthpiece.

This issue was addressed directly at a regional convention. People who struggle with serious doubt need not feel they have to abandon their faith. There was a whole talk about it. Some may struggle with doubt for years before receiving an answer.

7 hours ago, Shiwiii said:

Isn't it a disfellowshipping offence to not believe that the gb is the faithful and discrete slave?

This is off topic. You can't be disfellowshipped for not holding beliefs. You get disfellowshipped for purposefully causing dissension.

@JW Insider

The discussion about Jehovah's mouthpiece and the anointed as expressed is completely off topic. Further these statements mildly misrepresent WT doctrine. Jehovah's Witnesses believe both classes will be sons and daughter NOT JUST ANOINTED. The distinction is those who go to heaven obtain an immediate reward that cannot be taken away. Those on earth apparently can lose their reward based on Revelation 20. On earth it appears that it is not until after those who are resurrected to a Day of Judgment turn on God's true Sons that these faithful Sons of God are revealed!

On 1/17/2019 at 4:40 AM, JW Insider said:

• #1. It creates a set time limit for Armageddon to occur.
• #2. It is based on the idea that the date 1914 was predicted in the Bible. 
• #3. It is based on a false definition of the word "generation." 
• #4. It is based on a false premise about a supposed belief in 1914 that didn't even exist in 1914. 

#1 is not a problem with the doctrine unless you mean it is unwise. Being unwise may be a concern but it doesn't make the doctrine untrue.

#2 This is only a problem if 1914 is not predicted. You presuppose your conclusion.

#3 What is your more correct definition of a generation? Can you establish your belief Biblically? (Those are two different questions. I'm not trying to make it hard to answer. I'm simply wondering whether you have a definition whether it is based on Scripture or not. But if it isn't what is your complaint?)

Note: Apostates and skeptics always criticize something but they bring no solutions to the table. When they do those solutions are often superficial. It is easy to criticize. it is another to demonstrate an adequate alternative.

#4 I don't think the new doctrine is based on any belief that people had at anytime. Related historical statements about what people believed or not may be inaccurate but it doesn't mean the doctrine is false. It simply means they provides supporting facts that were unfounded. The doctrine could be independently true.

I already said what i think about the doctrine. I feel they have put too much emphasis on it. We dont need this doctrine to believe it is the last days. Christendom believes it the last days (The Southern Baptist convention and many Pentecostal religions believe the end is IMMINENT! Their words not mine.) They don't have any date on which the last days started. We have other signs taht tell us where we are in the stream of time and how close e are. WE don't need the "this Generation" doctrines!

I think you need to refine your complaint. It is quite ad hoc and not well thought out.

That is not intended as an insult.

I think you have valid concerns but these are not really doctrinal problems. I'm concerned about your rejection of 1914 and that these are the last days!

I fully affirm your scriptural concerns as expressed in the original post.

@JW InsiderI appreicate your attempt to salvage our faith after introducing such a controversial topic. I've not read everything but I think you comments go too far.

I've not read everything here and perhaps i should before i comment.

This Generation

I'm neutral regarding the new This Generation doctrine. I don't see the scriptural basis for several reasons I will not add here. I don't think it is appropriate on a public forum where anyone can read. I don't think it is wrong who can be sure? But I do think it is unwise.

I think the brothers focus on "This generation" because of Jesus' own words: " Truly I say to you that this generation will by no means pass away until all these things happen." (Mt 24:34). What do they mean? Did he say them for nothing? It is a part of the sign of the last days!

Now my view is that they should have provided numerous possible interpretations and we just watch and see which seems to be more true. This is my contention. They also made other comments that i think will be picked up and used by apostates in the coming years when things dont develop as quickly as we thought.

The Last Days

I have no problem with the 1914 doctrine, but anyone with a brain should at least question our understanding of this generation. I thik it is significant that WWI started in 1914. Its a major coincidence and the world acknowledges taht the world as we know it changed. I don't have to pull references form a Watchtower to find them. It was in my history book. I've seen these references in numerous publications that I read casually. THe world changed in 1914.

@JW Insider

If these are not the last days what is the purpose of the sign??? if the prophecy pertains to any ol' time period, how do we know that he is near at the door? The system is progressing just as we would think. JWs are not the only ones that believe these are the last days. Evangelical and most of the US population up until a few years ago did also. JWs have along explained that religion was in danger of being destroyed, the waters are not only drying up, there are groups of people calling for her death--the New Atheists. Movies and television shows are attacking the BIblical worldview in very subtle and brilliant ways! The legalization of gay marriage has created a protected right group diametrically opposed to traditional views on religious freedom. (If the Bible at all seemed archaic before, gay rights is a constant reminder that the Bible is outdated and irrelevant for building a progressive and modern society. WE can come up with better ideas.) The previous US president promoted "Freedom of WOrship" which is not as broad as "freedom of religion." Basically you can go to church but you may not promote or freely express your beliefs in the public square!

We have no idea what effect redefining the family. marriage, gender, gender roles, and morality will ultimately do to a secular society with no restraints. Science and evolution filling the religious gap in people's minds does not hold promise of a happy future. Secular thought and evolutionary teaching undermine human rights, the dignity and value of human life. Such views open the world wide open to eventual genocide. It IS THE NATURAL PROGRESSION of social Darwinism. As society becomes more in line with the themes "Survival of the fittest" we will become more and more like the degraded animals they claim us to be.

Knowledge is power. We've put a lot of knowledge and power in the hands of a lot of ordinary people to inflict a tremendous amount of harm!

The twisted thinking of clever yet flawed philosophers catch wind all too easily and spread all too fast. We have a population with growing amounts of information much of it agenda driven. These people are not necessarily any more intelligent or capable of critically assessing this information. Puns and memorable sound bites are accepted as AXIOMATIC yet unexamined words of truth! Democracy is becoming more about herd control and manipulation. (DO this and do that to get a vote. Time your propaganda just right before the people go to the polls. Use code words that people think they understand but  really dont except a minority thus winning people over who aren't paying attention to the rhetoric.)

That is just on a social level. What about tampering with DNA? Super strains of diseases. Tampering with our food supply? We have no idea what these will do. What happens if some scientist or evil government unleash this crap on people on purpose? We have never lived in a time where a single person can inflict so much harm.

Jehovah's Witnesses constantly Getting it Wrong!

Daniel 12: 4 says: “As for you, Daniel, keep the words secret, and seal up the book until the time of the end.+ Many will rove about,* and the true knowledge will become abundant.”

Some other translations here: https://biblehub.com/daniel/12-4.htm

As one would logically think and expresses in this Scripture, trying to understand prophecy IF IT IS TRUE AT ALL, is to run into many dead end! Some bible version say wander about. Some say go to and fro. Either way, the person runs into a dead end. He loses his way. He experience cognitive dissonance. He rethinks, he regroups, he presses forward with a new idea!

Christendom is smarter! They've given up almost completely. They understand that taking an official stance on prophecy is suicide! SO they leave it to a few brave theologians and nothing more.

JEhovah's pitiful Witnesses are not afraid of the ridicule. They believe that God will grant understanding and they press on. They simply have faith that God will vindicate them for their efforts and expose those who lack faith in God's Word!

I do believe Jehovah's WItnesses are approaching the end of their rope. If Jesus doesn't come soon, it will be the end of our religion! But Christendom won't be far behind!