John 12.24to28

27 minutes ago, Fausto Hoover said:

This also goes toward those refusing expulsion from the church.

https://www.victorious.org/pub/sin-persists-church-168

https://bible.org/seriespage/8-church-discipline-taking-sin-seriously-1-cor-51-13

I wasn't alive when Paul was in Corinth, but I have been alive the past few years and can share what I've experienced with "excommunication" and "disfellowshipping" in the local congregation.

Those "seven sins" listed on the first website posted there:

"(1) Immorality — adultery, fornication, homosexuality, lesbianism, incest, rape, sexual impurity, etc.
(2) Greed — The desire to accumulate gain by base methods.
(3) Idolatry — Participation in occult practices.
(4) Drunkenness — Intoxication with alcohol.
(5) Extortion — Robbery, theft, stealing.
(6) Foul tongue — A railer, verbally abusive, reviling, slanderous, insulting, contentious, speech which causes injury or damage.
(7) Heretic — One who causes division by a party spirit, a self-willed opinion, or contentions over false or exotic doctrines."

I saw all of those things being practiced in my local congregation. Immorality, greed, idolatry, drunkenness, extortion, foul tongue, and heresy, being practiced by elders or elders wives or former elders. Not one of them was disfellowshipped, even though there was plenty of evidence, and at times the person admitted to the deed. The elders didn't care. The branch didn't care. The flock was hurt because these people were allowed to continue in their midst, but nobody did anything about it.

My kids and I are at the point where we are not welcome at the local Kingdom Hall because we told on some of those things that were going on. We were witnesses to the things and it was our obligation to report it and to warn others, since the deeds were still going on in some cases. My kids are baptized teenagers, and my son has been able to take the lead in our once-a-week family worship time for the past couple years. He also says the prayers before meals and before we read the Bible together every day. (We also watch prerecorded meetings twice a week too.)

For the year that my husband wasn't home per State order, our family worship was smooth. When my husband came home (which we are glad about) it was difficult for family worship and prayers, because part of the reason the domestic assault incident was precipitated in the first place was his anger that I had reported to the elder body what the COBE was doing, some of those bad things on that list. Anything that had to do with worship or prayer or reading the Bible was an issue for my husband, even though he was baptized and supposedly in good standing with the elders. At that point he hadn't repented about certain serious sins (some of the ones on that list there) and instead of Jehovah's spirit he had a spirit of rage and contention. It was impossible to do any kind of "worship" together with him. So my kids and would hide and do our worship in another part of the house where he wasn't around to get irritated. He would go to the Kingdom Hall and "worship" and we would worship Jehovah at home. We "disfellowshipped" him from our family worship because he kept disrupting it and turning it into an abuse session.

We have invited him back at other times since he's calmed down more, but he's not interested. My son says the prayer before dinner prior to when my husband comes in the room. We all eat together, but he doesn't join us for the prayer, or family worship. It's taken awhile to figure out how to get to this point, but it's peaceful for all of us now, as peaceful as possible, and gives evidence of Jehovah's approval. That's how we've done "disfellowshipping".

1 hour ago, Pudgy said:

Besides if you ignore the crazy stuff, it will take you where you, and they, want to go. ( ! )

How is it possible to "ignore the crazy stuff" when it's hurting people you love? It's not possible.

Their direction won't take anybody anywhere when the direction is against Jehovah. It's kind of like virtual reality - it might seem realistic for awhile that a person can "earn" salvation or holiness or something by how many magazines they place or KHs they build, but when Jesus comes it's going to be the Real reality.

"Many will say to me in that day: ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and expel demons in your name, and perform many powerful works in your name?’  And then I will declare to them: ‘I never knew you! Get away from me, you workers of lawlessness!" (Matthew 7:22,23)

There are right-hearted individuals in the organization, and Jesus is merciful. And when the direction is in harmony with God's Word, it is good. But the overall direction to treat worship as if it's a business is heinous. Elders are trained to act like business managers with flowcharts and accountability to HQ rather than to Jehovah. The Pharisees control the flock so they can control the funds for their own selfish gain. Jesus detested that kind of "worship". Especially in his Father's house.

8 minutes ago, Pudgy said:

That would be my advice to you, Audrey.

You cannot stop a locomotive full of passengers determined to ride that train.

That makes them happy.

You make them unhappy.

Those that know, already know.

Besides if you ignore the crazy stuff, it will take you where you, and they, want to go. ( ! )

Oh, I know I make them unhappy. I'm not trying to make anybody unhappy. How would @Space Merchant put it? I have a "Commission" to fulfill.😁

Jeremiah kept getting harassed by the elders of his day, but Jehovah just made him keep telling the truth: "...when Pashʹhur released Jeremiah from the stocks, Jeremiah said to him: “Jehovah has named you, not Pashʹhur, but Terror All Around.  For this is what Jehovah says, ‘I will make you an object of terror to yourself and to all your friends, and they will fall by the sword of their enemies while your eyes are looking on; and I will give all Judah into the hand of the king of Babylon, and he will take them into exile in Babylon and put them to death by the sword.  And I will give all the wealth of this city, all its resources, all its precious things, and all the treasures of the kings of Judah into the hand of their enemies. And they will plunder them and seize them and take them to Babylon.  And as for you, Pashʹhur, and all who live in your house, you will go into captivity. You will go off to Babylon and die there, and you will be buried there with all your friends, because you have prophesied lies to them.’”

Jeremiah quit preaching lots of times, but Jehovah made it burn in him like a fire, and he couldn't hold it in. 

"You have fooled me, O Jehovah, and I was fooled. You used your strength against me, and you prevailed. I have become a laughingstock all day long; Everyone ridicules me.  For whenever I speak, I must cry out and proclaim, “Violence and destruction!”  For me the word of Jehovah has been the cause of insults and jeering all day long. So I said: “I am not going to make mention of him, And I will speak no more in his name.”  But in my heart it became like a burning fire shut up in my bones, And I was tired of holding it in; I could no longer endure it.  For I heard many evil rumors; Terror surrounded me.  “Denounce him; let us denounce him!” Every man wishing me peace was watching for my downfall: “Perhaps he will make a foolish mistake, And we can prevail and take our revenge against him.”  But Jehovah was with me like a fearsome warrior. That is why those persecuting me will stumble and will not prevail. They will be put to great shame, for they will not succeed. Their everlasting humiliation will not be forgotten. But you, O Jehovah of armies, are examining the righteous one; You see the innermost thoughts and the heart.  Let me see your vengeance on them, For to you I have committed my legal case.  Sing to Jehovah! Praise Jehovah! For he has rescued the poor one from the hand of evildoers."

I've told Jehovah "I quit!" more times than I can count. But it doesn't work. 😁 He is waaaaaay stronger than I am. That's why I know it's Jehovah's holy spirit and not my own strength, because whenever I quit and say "I can't do this anymore, Jehovah, I won't, please, you have to do it because I am so done, I can't..." and then He does really cool stuff every time. Jehovah's so cool.🤩😎☺️

8 hours ago, Pudgy said:

Jesus forgave those ACTIVELY torturing him to death … those who had Not repented … because they “do not know what they are doing”.

That is why we should not be too hard on the Governing Body.

Not every soldier is John Rambo, or can be expected to be.

"John Rambo : [from the Director's Cut]  Go live your life 'cause you've got a good one.

Sarah : It's what I'm trying to do.

John Rambo : No, what you're trying to do is change what is.

Sarah : And what is?

John Rambo : That we're like animals! It's in the blood! It's natural! Peace? That's an accident! It's what is! When you're pushed, killing's as easy as breathing. When the killing stops in one place, it starts in another, but that's okay... 'cause you're killing for your country. But it ain't your country who asks you, it's a few men up top who want it. Old men start it, young men fight it, nobody wins, everybody in the middle dies... and nobody tells the truth! God's gonna make all that go away?

[pause] 

John Rambo : Don't waste your life, I did. Go home."

(quotes from Rambo 2008, imdb.com)

I don't know, @Pudgy - I haven't seen these movies since I was a kid (we had TV/movies on 24/7 when I was young, every genre - war/action/horror/spiritism/westerns/sci-fi/classics/musicals - I kind of did a 180 on that when I got to my 20's - now I don't hardly watch anything...) It seems that the John Rambo character was more like the Roman soldiers who didn't know what they were doing. But the GB sounds more like the "few men up top" Rambo was talking about here. "And nobody tells the truth".

They (the GB) claim to have special knowledge from God for understanding scripture better than everyone else, but they have grieved the holy spirit by disobeying clear Bible counsel. When we pray for holy spirit and then look at the Bible, we can tell the GB are making stuff up. The holy spirit is like having figurative night vision googles that magnify the light or see in infrared spectrum. John said the anointed ones have the spirit teaching them to understand the scriptures. I'm just some dumb person, but with Jehovah's help I can see clearly that the GB is making up so much stuff (although even atheists can see that) and Jehovah makes clear some other things that the GB has no clue about. If they were really "God's channel" and the holy spirit was helping them then they would know all these things that the holy spirit helps me understand. I'm just a nobody. I'm not some fancy Bible scholar. They should know more than I do if they're really some kind of "channel" thing. (They are not a "channel" - they are actually apostates.)

If Jehovah can make me understand stuff by means of His holy spirit, then He can make anybody understand. I'm low and not important. Jehovah is showing that He doesn't need some fancy governing body to reveal special truths to anybody. He can make a "nobody" understand. Even an "apostate" or somebody "disfellowshipped" or a "lowly woman".

As far as "not being to hard on the Governing Body" I don't think it's right when people say mean things about them just to be mean. But Jehovah does tell us to warn people. Jehovah is going to make an accounting with those men very soon. They are not standing in a very good place right now - Jehovah's really, really angry with them - His Word is clear. A lot of other people are going to be angry with them too when they find out all at once they've been lied to.  They'll find out all at once when Jesus pulls back the curtain and exposes their uncleanness, and that about some really important things, "they don't know diddly."

2 hours ago, redHarmonioussparrow said:

• For the LORD giveth wisdom: out of his mouth cometh knowledge and understanding. He layeth up sound wisdom for the righteous: he is a buckler to them that walk uprightly. He keepeth the paths of judgment, and preserveth the way of his saints. Then shalt thou understand righteousness, and judgment, and equity; yea, every good path.

I like that quote, it's from Proverbs 2:6-9. I like what the verses before it say about where to find wisdom, how to acquire it...

"My son, if you accept my sayings And treasure up my commandments, By making your ear attentive to wisdom And inclining your heart to discernment; Moreover, if you call out for understanding And raise your voice for discernment; If you keep seeking for it as for silver, And you keep searching for it as for hidden treasures; Then you will understand the fear of Jehovah, And you will find the knowledge of God." (Proverbs 2:1-5)

We can't just read the Bible to get wisdom. We have to beg Him for His spirit in order to understand it. Otherwise it's just an old book like any other old book. There are a lot of old books. We don't get the benefit of the wisdom in the Bible unless we ask Jehovah to give it to us along with His holy spirit. Otherwise the wisdom is just hidden. We could parrot the words and make "good comments" at meetings and give fancy talks, but it wouldn't be real. It'd be the same as that apocryphal book quoted below, "The Wisdom of Solomon". That book is not part of the Bible canon. It doesn't fit with the holy spirit. It's a fraud. But if somebody wasn't reading the Bible along with holy spirit, they might not know the difference.

2 hours ago, Fausto Hoover said:

Wisdom of Solomon

 3 But the souls of the righteous are in the hand of God, and no torment will ever touch them. 2 In the eyes of the foolish they seemed to have died, and their departure was thought to be a Disaster, 3 and their going from us to be their destruction; but they are at peace. ⁴ For though in the sight of others they were punished, their hope is full of immortality. ⁵ Having been disciplined a little, they will receive great good, because God tested them and found them worthy of himself; ⁶ like gold in the furnace he tried them, and like a sacrificial burnt offering he accepted them. ⁷ In the time of their visitation they will shine forth, and will run like sparks through the stubble. ⁸ They will govern nations and rule over peoples, and the Lord will reign over them Forever. ⁹ Those who trust in him will understand truth, and the faithful will abide with him in love, because grace and mercy are upon his holy ones, and he watches over his elect.

 10 But the ungodly will be punished as their reasoning deserves, those who disregarded the righteous and rebelled against the Lord; 11 for those who despise wisdom and instruction are miserable. Their hope is vain, their labors are unprofitable, and their works are useless. 12 Their wives are foolish, and their children evil; 13 their off spring are accursed. For blessed is the barren woman who is undefiled, who has not entered into a sinful union; she will have fruit when God examines souls.

1 hour ago, Srecko Sostar said:

conscience

Original design: man with a perfect conscience and everyday face-to-face communication with Jehovah...that was the intention.

Adam took his conscience and figuratively whacked it with a sledgehammer. He never apologized for what he did, he wasn't sorry, he didn't want to have anybody tell him what to do, so we were born outside the garden. Stupid Adam. (Just shows even "smart" people can be stupid.)

Anyway, our conscience cannot be relied on to guide us accurately. We inherited the smashed and dented model. Whether we belong to a religious institution or not, the conscience isn't reliable on its own. And we can't hear God's voice right now. So we have to read His recorded Word to get His instruction. The more we read God's Word, the better calibrated our conscience will be.

True, the current versions of the Bible we have are not the originals. They've been tampered with. But just like an old treasure map with lines and wrinkles and stains on it, you can still get the overview and do your best to find the treasures. 

We know what Jesus was like. We can see his personality from what we read in the Bible. That's our best guide to knowing the right way to walk in any situation. 

The religious institutions have so many Pharisaical components. Jesus told us that would happen. His words to the congregations as recorded in Revelation chapter 2-3 help us to see what a mess Christianity was to become. He promised he would come and fix it.

Jesus doesn't lie. Religious leaders might lie sometimes, but Jesus doesn't. He said all of the things God promised will come true. I believe him. He's helped me every day of my life, even when I didn't know he was there. He didn't give up on me even when I gave up on him. (I'm not going to do that again.)

Jesus told us to pray for holy spirit, for understanding. Holy spirit is not corruptible. It doesn't decay or get mistranslated.  When we beg Jehovah for holy spirit and answers and don't give up in asking, we do receive the answers. Sometimes we have to wait awhile, but we do get them. We just have to keep asking.

"bold persistence... So I say to you, keep on asking, and it will be given you; keep on seeking, and you will find; keep on knocking, and it will be opened to you.  For everyone asking receives, and everyone seeking finds, and to everyone knocking, it will be opened."

(Luke 11:8-10)

"Then he went on to tell them an illustration about the need for them always to pray and not to give up,  saying: “In a certain city there was a judge who had no fear of God and no respect for man.  There was also a widow in that city who kept going to him and saying, ‘See that I get justice from my legal opponent.’  Well, for a while he was unwilling, but afterward he said to himself, ‘Although I do not fear God or respect any man,  because this widow keeps making me trouble, I will see that she gets justice so that she will not keep coming and wearing me out with her demand.’”  Then the Lord said: “Hear what the judge, although unrighteous, said!  Certainly, then, will not God cause justice to be done for his chosen ones who cry out to him day and night, while he is patient toward them? I tell you, he will cause justice to be done to them speedily. Nevertheless, when the Son of man arrives, will he really find this faith on the earth?"

(Luke 18:1-8)

Abraham had to wait. He died and still didn't get to see the fulfillment of certain things, but he will be back. 

"So let us not give up in doing what is fine, for in due time we will reap if we do not tire out."

(Galatians 6:9)

You have endured so long, so many things, only Jehovah knows. He knows all the tears, all the pain, all the frustrations, the disappointments, the anguish, the darkness, the anxiety, the fatigue, the apathy, the exhaustion...he knows when we feel abandoned, hopeless, confused...

"Rescue me from oppressive men, 

And I will keep your orders.  

Make your face shine upon your servant, 

And teach me your regulations.  

Tears stream down from my eyes 

Because people do not keep your law."

(Psalm 139:134-136)

Ezekiel chapters 8 and 9 describes all the horrible things God's name people were doing in the place that was supposed to be a house of true worship. It is the same today - the religious denominations claim to be serving God but it's a big mess.

Jehovah knows who is "sighing and groaning" over all these detestable things going on in religion. Sometimes we know who is "sighing and groaning" over them too...(we can read here on this forum, for example, the words of many who are "sighing and groaning" over the detestable things, and there are many others the world over...)

Jesus promised to come back and fix it. He will. It's just a little while longer we have to wait, but he is coming. It'll be worth the wait.

Then our consciences will be fixed eventually, and communication will be restored with God the way it was intended to be. At that time there will be books necessary to hear God's voice. 🙂

"Later they heard the voice of Jehovah God as he was walking in the garden about the breezy part of the day..."💖

(Genesis 3:8)

25 minutes ago, AudreyAnnaNana said:

When the storm just ahead of us arrives, there will be many currently unrecognized as "honored shepherds" who step up to protect and minister to others, because they follow the Christ, as they have been following him for a long time.

3 hours ago, AudreyAnnaNana said:

On 4/19/2023 at 2:15 PM, Pudgy said:

.….. and you know who you are.

 

…. and you do know who you are …….

 

 

🙂🌷🫶🌿🥰

2 hours ago, Fausto Hoover said:

This is why it's not wise to engage with those that can't see scripture for what it is.

• All scripture, inspired of God, is profitable to teach, to reprove, to correct, to instruct in justice, English Revised Version Every scripture inspired of God is also profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for instruction which is in righteousness.

It's a waste of time.

CSB Psalm 56:5 They twist my words all day long; all their thoughts against me are evil. (Ps. 56:5 CSB)

CSB 2 Peter 3:16 He speaks about these things in all his letters in which there are some matters that are hard to understand. The untaught and unstable twist them to their own destruction, as they also do with the rest of the Scriptures. (2 Pet. 3:16 CSB)

CSB Acts 13:10 and said, "You son of the Devil, full of all deceit and all fraud, enemy of all righteousness! Won't you ever stop perverting the straight paths of the Lord? (Acts 13:10 CSB)
 

"Love hopes all things."

(1 Corinthians 13:7)

"For a slave of the Lord does not need to fight, but needs to be gentle toward all, qualified to teach, showing restraint when wronged,  instructing with mildness those not favorably disposed. Perhaps God may give them repentance leading to an accurate knowledge of truth,  and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the Devil, seeing that they have been caught alive by him to do his will."

(2 Timothy 2:24-26)

"With the ropes of men I kept drawing them, with the cords of love; And I was to them like one lifting a yoke from their jaws, And I gently brought food to each one."

(Hosea 11:4)

"He replied to him: “Yes, Lord, you know I have affection for you.” He said to him: “Feed my lambs.”"

"Again he said to him a second time: “Simon son of John, do you love me?” He replied: “Yes, Lord, you know I have affection for you.” He said to him: “Shepherd my little sheep.”"

"“Do you have affection for me?” So he said to him: “Lord, you are aware of all things; you know that I have affection for you.” Jesus said to him: “Feed my little sheep.""

(John 21:15-17)

The spiritual food Jesus fed them wasn't publications. It was himself. He poured himself out for others, to minister to them, to encourage them, to upbuild and direct them, to help them, to hang out with them, to protect them. He shared God's Word with them, which is love. He taught them about love.

Shepherds don't need to be "assigned" in order to do their job. They do it because it's in their blood.

"Then the Jews began to argue with one another, saying: “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?”  So Jesus said to them: “Most truly I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in yourselves.  Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood has everlasting life, and I will resurrect him on the last day;  for my flesh is true food and my blood is true drink.  Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood remains in union with me, and I in union with him."

(John 6:52-55)

"Remain in union with me, and I will remain in union with you."

(John 15:4)

"As for you, what you have heard from the beginning must remain in you. If what you have heard from the beginning remains in you, you will also remain in union with the Son and in union with the Father."

(1 John 2:24)

"God is love."

(1 John 4:8)

On 5/30/2023 at 12:56 AM, Pudgy said:

Well…. For every soldier that gets the U.S. Medal of Honor, there is probably another thousand that also deserve one.

A lot gets missed.

(Most of the real shepherds don't get "honored" or "recognized" in the way of the world. Just like infants don't give a medal of honor to their mother who is breastfeeding them, so little lambs and little sheep don't "honor" the shepherd in the way the world shows honor. How does a sheep or little lamb show honor for a shepherd? The same way an infant does for their mother. They know where to run to when the storm comes.)

"The hired man, who is not a shepherd and to whom the sheep do not belong, sees the wolf coming and abandons the sheep and flees—and the wolf snatches them and scatters them—  because he is a hired man and does not care for the sheep."

(John 10:12,13)

When the storm just ahead of us arrives, there will be many currently unrecognized as "honored shepherds" who step up to protect and minister to others, because they follow the Christ, as they have been following him for a long time.

"I am the fine shepherd; the fine shepherd surrenders his life in behalf of the sheep."

(John 10:11)

28 minutes ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Thank you for your truly great compassion. Please don't feel like that anymore, because, well, we survived and it's "as if nothing happened". I have three siblings and a mother. Two brothers and mother decided not to contact. The oldest brother makes a phone call from time to time. Wife is JW.

Stay well!

Thank you, @Srecko Sostar, my brother! Jehovah has a way of turning what others might think of as a "curse" into a blessing for us. 🙂 Someday the others will wake up too (the ones like your mother and two brothers...and the others that shun us). Thank you for your courage and endurance!💖 I have been encouraged by your comments and your example. Thank you!🌈🥰

On 4/24/2023 at 12:28 AM, Pudgy said:

My question is:

Who is your target audience for all the above?

There is only about six people reading this blog, and they all know this stuff.

On 4/24/2023 at 12:54 AM, AudreyAnnaNana said:

 

Does @boyle count as five of the six?

45 minutes ago, Pudgy said:

….. sometimes my jokes are just for me …..

😆

On 2/19/2023 at 6:54 PM, Guest said:

Sheep don't care about titles. 

 

Thank you for being a shepherd for Jehovah. Hope you've got your shepherd shoes ready. There is going to be a lot of work for you and others like you just ahead.

 

""Then I will gather together the remnant of my sheep from all the lands to which I have dispersed them, and I will bring them back to their pasture, and they will be fruitful and become many.  And I will raise up over them shepherds who will really shepherd them. They will no longer be afraid or be terrified, and none will be missing,” declares Jehovah."

 

(Moses got his big assignment when he was about what age?)

 

I guess we will always have plenty to do in the work of the Lord!

 

Praise Jehovah☺️

On 2/19/2023 at 7:06 PM, Pudgy said:

I have never aspired to any position of responsibility, and don’t now. I don’t want to “shepherd” anyone. 
Never have.

On 2/19/2023 at 7:25 PM, Guest said:

"I don't want to shepherd anyone. Never have." @Pudgy, that's why you qualify. Lol.

 

"However, Moses said to the true God: “Who am I that I should go to Pharʹaoh and bring the Israelites out of Egypt?"

 

"At this Saul answered: “Am I not a Benʹja·min·ite of the smallest of the tribes of Israel, and my family the most insignificant of all the families of the tribe of Benjamin? So why have you spoken to me in this way?”"

 

"Gidʹe·on answered him: “Pardon me, Jehovah. How can I save Israel? Look! My clan is the least in Ma·nasʹseh, and I am the most insignificant in my father’s house.”"

 

Somebody doesn't "qualify" to be "An Older Brother". They just ARE an older brother, they act like one.

 

Somebody doesn't "qualify" to be "A Shepherd". They just ARE a shepherd, they act like one.

 

The poor brothers at Bethel try to make a book and a school so people "qualify", but the list of qualifications in the Bible isn't something a person goes to school for. They have been molded through training by Jehovah in life.

 

"But now God has arranged each of the body members just as he pleased."

 

An eye is for seeing and an ear is for hearing and an older brother shepherds. The organization at presents has "schools" and business-like definitions and titles, but that is not Jehovah's way.

 

In my little sheep experiences, I have had spoken to many so-called "shepherds" who didn't know a sheep from a rock and a better title for them would be "wolves in sheep's covering." I have also met those have been labeled "apostate" or "members of false religion" who showed more kindness and human decency and basic compassion than anyone I have communicated with at the Watchtower Headquarters. (Bill Bowen and Tim Stier are two individuals who could fill the roles of the Good Samaritan in Jesus' illustration while the fifty elders I wrote to at the Bethel facilities walked right on by.) God is love, not a business manager.

 

Jehovah is not one to be impressed by labels, and Jesus didn't try to lord it over anyone. When the organization is cleaned and the family is straightened out, Jehovah will make clear what is what and who is who. 

 

"And I will give you shepherds after my own heart, and they will feed you with knowledge and insight."

 

Jehovah Causes To Become. 

On 2/19/2023 at 8:19 PM, Guest said:

"Certainly if anyone does not provide for those who are his own, and especially for those who are members of his household, he has disowned the faith and is worse than a person without faith."

 

@Pudgy, You are already serving as a shepherd, for your wife, your most precious sheep. Jehovah will just add to your fold at the appointed time. (There is everlasting life ahead - and lots to do in the thousand year reign.)

 

The many directives in the organization that led to husbands and wives being separated for so-called "theocratic" activities have dishonored God. It always makes me wince when I read those life stories where the wife and kids were basically sacrificed on the altar to "theocratic career" so the husband could go to "School" for months or to "Serve" supposedly "in Jehovah's name" when it wasn't really for Jehovah. Jehovah doesn't promote dividing families.

 

"They have built the high places of Toʹpheth, which is in the Valley of the Son of Hinʹnom, in order to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire, something that I had not commanded and that had never even come into my heart."

 

I know Jehovah has more work for you, @Pudgy, just like I know He has more work for all who love His Name and put His Ways ahead of the doctrines of man.

 

Courage is a requirement to be part of Jehovah's Family.

 

"Be·naiʹah the son of Je·hoiʹa·da was a courageous man who performed many exploits in Kabʹze·el. He struck down the two sons of Arʹi·el of Moʹab, and he descended into a waterpit on a snowy day and killed a lion.  He also struck down an Egyptian man of extraordinary size. Though the Egyptian had a spear in his hand, he went against him with a rod and snatched the spear away from the Egyptian’s hand and killed him with his own spear.  These things Be·naiʹah the son of Je·hoiʹa·da did, and he had a reputation like that of the three mighty warriors.  Although he was distinguished even more than the thirty, he did not attain to the rank of the three. However, David appointed him over his own bodyguard."

 

Not everybody would purposely join in on a discussion with a known bully while that bully is verbally abusing another person, knowing that if they joined in they'd also get verbally abused. But some people would join in and distract the bully.

 

"The one showing favor to the lowly is lending to Jehovah, 

And He will repay him for what he does."

 

"With someone loyal you act in loyalty."

 

I don't have "visions" or "special knowledge". But I can read God's Word.

 

"Have you seen a man skillful at his work? 

He will stand before kings; 

He will not stand before common men."

 

Jehovah's Word Always Comes True. Praise Jah.

On 4/19/2023 at 2:15 PM, Pudgy said:

.….. and you know who you are.

 

…. and you do know who you are …….

 

🙂🌷🫶🌿🥰

30 minutes ago, redHarmonioussparrow said:

• Jesus did not eat with tax collectors and sinners simply for the sake of physical nourishment. He was teaching them while they ate together. In verse 32 Jesus says that He came to call sinners to repentance. They needed to change their minds and turn back to God.

Jesus ate with them because he loved them first - before they started to love him. Whether or not they turned around, he loved them, because he is like his Father, Our Father Jehovah. That's why Jesus came here, because he loves us just like Jehovah loves us. If we respond to that love, great. If we don't, it doesn't change his love. He loved us first.

"When the attendant of the man of the true God rose early and went outside, he saw that an army with horses and war chariots was surrounding the city. At once the attendant said to him: “Alas, my master! What are we to do?”...But he said: “You must not strike them down. Do you strike down those whom you have taken captive with your sword and with your bow? Give them bread and water so they may eat and drink and return to their lord.”  So he spread a great feast for them, and they ate and drank, after which he sent them away to return to their lord."

(2 Kings 6:15,22,23)

"For if you love those loving you, what reward do you have? Are not also the tax collectors doing the same thing?  And if you greet your brothers only, what extraordinary thing are you doing? Are not also the people of the nations doing the same thing?  You must accordingly be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect."

(Matthew 5:46-48)

"We love, because he first loved us."

(1 John 4:19)

"I fed you milk, not solid food, for you were not yet strong enough. In fact, neither are you strong enough now,  for you are still fleshly."

(1 Corinthians 3:2,3)

"Look! The farmer keeps waiting for the precious fruit of the earth, exercising patience over it until the early rain and the late rain arrive."

(James 5:7)

You are the precious fruit of the earth. Jehovah is waiting patiently to reward you. He loves you. He is waiting for you.

42 minutes ago, Fausto Hoover said:

We only need to look at scripture to understand the role of a spiritual leader. Those of us that choose to obey will, and those that choose not to obey won't. Paul was specific about how those that don't should not influence the ones that do.

Jesus is the true Spiritual Leader, the true Shepherd of the sheep. Here is what he said:

"And I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; those too I must bring in, and they will listen to my voice, and they will become one flock, one shepherd."

(John 10:16)

There will be many out of all denominations and even those who are not religious today who will come to Jesus in the future during the tribulation ahead.

"What do you think? A man had two children. Going up to the first, he said, ‘Child, go work today in the vineyard.’  In answer this one said, ‘I will not,’ but afterward, he felt regret and went out.  Approaching the second, he said the same. This one replied, ‘I will, Sir,’ but did not go out.  Which of the two did the will of his father?” They said: “The first.” Jesus said to them: “Truly I say to you that the tax collectors and the prostitutes are going ahead of you into the Kingdom of God.  For John came to you in a way of righteousness, but you did not believe him. However, the tax collectors and the prostitutes believed him, and even when you saw this, you did not feel regret afterward so as to believe him."

(Matthew 21:28-32)

There are many who do not consider themselves to be part of the Jehovah's Witnesses organization or who are rejected by the Jehovah's Witnesses organization who are actually following Jesus by means of obeying the command to show love. 

There are many who are considered officially part of the Jehovah's Witnesses organization who claim to obey Jesus and yet who disregard the primary command he gave, to love. 

Jesus said "Truly I say to you that the tax collectors and the prostitutes are going ahead of you into the Kingdom of God." Many of those ones who are despised by the GB and the leaders in the current JW.ORG organization have learned what love is sooner than the GB and the "leaders" did. 

"For the Kingdom of the heavens is like the master of a house who went out early in the morning to hire workers for his vineyard.  After he had agreed with the workers for a de·narʹi·us a day, he sent them into his vineyard.  Going out also about the third hour, he saw others standing unemployed in the marketplace;  and to those he said, ‘You too go into the vineyard, and I will give you whatever is fair.’  So off they went. Again he went out about the sixth hour and the ninth hour and did likewise. Finally, about the 11th hour, he went out and found others standing around, and he said to them, ‘Why have you been standing here all day unemployed?’ They replied, ‘Because nobody has hired us.’ He said to them, ‘You too go into the vineyard.’ 

“When evening came, the master of the vineyard said to his man in charge, ‘Call the workers and pay them their wages, starting with the last and ending with the first.’ When the 11th-hour men came, they each received a de·narʹi·us.  So when the first came, they assumed that they would receive more, but they too were paid at the rate of a de·narʹi·us.  On receiving it, they began to complain against the master of the house  and said, ‘These last men put in one hour’s work; still you made them equal to us who bore the burden of the day and the burning heat!’  But he said in reply to one of them, ‘Fellow, I do you no wrong. You agreed with me for a de·narʹi·us, did you not?  Take what is yours and go. I want to give to this last one the same as to you.  Do I not have the right to do what I want with my own things? Or is your eye envious because I am good?’  In this way, the last ones will be first, and the first ones last.”"

(Matthew 20:1-16)

(Better late than never.☺️💖)

"...and cure the sick ones in it and tell them: ‘The Kingdom of God has come near to you.’"

(Luke 10:9)

"Love never fails."

(1 Corinthians 13:8)

😆 @Fausto Hoover 😘 😁

Jesus is the one who will set us free. He said:

"The spirit of the Sovereign Lord Jehovah is upon me,

Because Jehovah anointed me to declare good news to the meek.  

He sent me to bind up the brokenhearted,

To proclaim liberty to the captives

And the wide opening of the eyes to the prisoners..."

6 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Who is the God you worship?

Jehovah will gather back all His sheep into a clean congregation.

"When Jehovah gathered back the captives of Zion,

We thought we were dreaming.  

At that time our mouth was filled with laughter

And our tongue with a joyful shout.  

At that time they said among the nations:

“Jehovah has done great things for them.”

Jehovah has done great things for us,

And we are overjoyed.  

Do gather back our captives, O Jehovah,

Like streams in the Negʹeb.  

Those sowing seed with tears

Will reap with a joyful shout.  

The one who does go out, though weeping,

Carrying his bag of seed,

Will surely return with a joyful shout,

Carrying in his sheaves."

(Psalm 126)

I know we can't really apologize for others. I make a lot of mistakes that I have to apologize for. Sometimes we don't realize until later all the harm we have done. 

I was a strong supporter of "disfellowshipping" and I hurt a lot of people I love by supporting that doctrine in the past. I cannot undo the pain I caused. I can't go back and fix it - I can only deal in the present and plan for the future - but I know that many people who are practicing this God-dishonoring doctrine today will repent some day and wish they could go back and do it over. They will apologize and say how sorry they are for all the pain they caused and beg for forgiveness and mercy.

We can have that confidence. With eyes of faith, it's almost like if we think about it we can already hear them say...

"I'm sorry." 🥹🥲

I'm sorry, to @Srecko Sostar and @Pudgy and anybody else who has had to suffer rude people and stupid people and cold people because of that dumb disfellowshipping doctrine. I'm sorry you were separated from your family and friends and community in ways that were horrid. I owe you an apology, because I supported that doctrine too, and I would have shunned you just as much as the rest of the org does. I am sorry.

You are beautiful human beings made in God's image, Jehovah's children, with so many gifts and strengths. You are my family, and it was wrong of me or anyone else to shun you. You never should have been treated that way, but you already know that - Jehovah has given you the strength you needed to endure and to be refined and to come out stronger and smarter than before. He will keep rewarding you because He loves you.

Jehovah's chief enemy thought he could break you, but he didn't. Jehovah allowed the trial because He knew you well enough to know that you would have said "Here I am, send me!" if you knew all the details about the trial ahead of time and the outcome, just like Jesus. Jesus knew the details and the outcome and he went through it anyway. You've had the same privilege in a different way. All of Jehovah's children do. May you continue to rejoice in Jehovah's blessings. I love you because Jehovah loves you. He loves you so very much.💖 It's obvious.🥰

"Happy are you who weep now, for you will laugh. Happy are you whenever men hate you, and when they exclude you and reproach you and denounce your name as wicked for the sake of the Son of man.  Rejoice in that day and leap for joy, for look! your reward is great in heaven, for those are the same things their forefathers used to do to the prophets."

(Luke 6:21-23)

"Beloved ones, do not be surprised about the fiery trials that you are experiencing, as though something strange were happening to you.  On the contrary, go on rejoicing over the extent to which you are sharers in the sufferings of the Christ, so that you may rejoice and be overjoyed also during the revelation of his glory.  If you are being reproached for the name of Christ, you are happy, because the spirit of glory, yes, the spirit of God, is resting upon you."

(1 Peter 4:12-14)

Joseph was in the prison hole for a long time. His circumstances changed eventually. Job suffered more than most. Job's circumstances changed in time. Your circumstances are about to change too. Praise Jehovah.☺️🌷

"Look! We consider happy those who have endured. You have heard of the endurance of Job and have seen the outcome Jehovah gave, that Jehovah is very tender in affection and merciful."

(James 5:11)

5 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

How do you show respect to a person who left the Church or was excluded from it?
Is it so that you don't greet her on the street?

Who is the God you worship?
Jesus spoke not only to tax collectors and adulterers but also to religious opponents.
Everyone who talks to me and others like me on this forum is violating religious rules and beliefs if they are JW members. They should also be excommunicated...immediately ..... hahaha

Jehovah knows who His witnesses are - no counsel of man dictates to Jehovah who "is one of Jehovah's witnesses" and "who is no longer one of Jehovah's witnesses." 

"We must obey God as ruler rather than men." (Acts 5:29)

"There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts fear out, because fear restrains us. Indeed, the one who is fearful has not been made perfect in love.   We love, because he first loved us. If anyone says, “I love God,” and yet is hating his brother, he is a liar. For the one who does not love his brother, whom he has seen, cannot love God, whom he has not seen.  And we have this commandment from him, that whoever loves God must also love his brother." (1 John 4:18-21)

I'm not anybody important, @Srecko Sostar, but I am one of Jehovah's witnesses, even if the org mislabels me a leprous mentally-diseased satanic disfellowshipped apostate worthy of everlasting death. I love you, @Srecko Sostar, and I will talk to you if I meet you on the street or the forum. I spent too much of my life following those dumb religious rules that Jesus hates. I don't want to do that anymore. You are right. The Bible is clear how Jesus treated people. I want to follow Jesus and not a bunch of guys who just make stuff up that ends up hurting people and reproaching Jehovah's name.

5 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

15 hours ago, AudreyAnnaNana said:

 

I have a car. It's not perfect, but it gets me where I need to go. Even though it's got issues, I don't throw it out, because it's all I've got to go in, unless I want to walk everywhere.

 

Until we can read Hebrew and Aramaic and Greek and find the original manuscripts (which are no longer in existence) we're going to have to do the best we can with what we've got - imperfectly copied and translated manuscripts and translations. We do have Jehovah's holy spirit to help us apply the Bible counsel; His holy spirit which doesn't corrode or get lost. When we prayerfully follow the Bible direction to the best of our abilities in harmony with holy spirit, we will get through better than if we didn't have Bible principles. 

 

When Jesus gets here, he will tell us directly what to do. He's not here yet. The Bible is the temporary means to get through this mess of a world. It's the best book we've got to direct us. Some people want to throw it out, but I don't recommend it. I've tried three different ways: (1) No Bible direction (2) Bible direction mixed with poisoned publications (3) Bible direction. It's no contest - hands down in my experience following God's Word is the only way to fly.

I generally agree with your position. The difference between an old car and the Bible is that the condition of the car does not have such a big influence on our decisions, as does a religion that waves the Bible in front of the noses of believers.
Copying the actions and decisions of people from the past does not always end well. On the other hand, the repurposing of their experiences in order to be adapted to the ideology of today's Church Administration and the circumstances of life is also a dangerous precedent.

In general, we all know what is right and what is wrong. How to achieve that the wolf is fed and the donkey alive? For that, you don't need religious leaders who will tell a believer not to vote in state elections, but at the same time the WTJWorg Administration will participate in political conferences to promote religious activity and sue states that restrict WTJWorg "freedom".

Lol...well some of the "actions and decisions of people from the past" are recorded in the Bible so that we Don't copy them, so of course those ones wouldn't end well if somebody copied them! That's exactly what we're seeing with the org right now. The ancient nation of Israel wasn't supposed to set up kings over themselves. They had Jehovah. But they rejected Jehovah and wanted kings. It's the same today. The Christian congregation isn't supposed to have kings. But we do. They will be removed, just like the other ones were. Jehovah had them removed. Jehovah hasn't changed.

"I well know, O Jehovah, that man’s way does not belong to him. It does not belong to man who is walking even to direct his step." (Jeremiah 10:23)

That was the second century version of the elder book/OD book...already adding rules to the rules and mixing good scriptural counsel in with secular theory and Pharisaical traditions. Wheat and weeds growing together, leaven just starting to ferment the dough so it could spread together until the time of the end.

14 minutes ago, redHarmonioussparrow said:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Didache

Chapter 2 contains the commandments against murder, adultery, corrupting boys, sexual promiscuity, theft, magic, sorcery, abortion, infanticide, coveting, perjury, false testimony, speaking evil, holding grudges, being double-minded, not acting as one speaks, greed, avarice, hypocrisy, maliciousness, arrogance, plotting evil against neighbors, hate, narcissism and expansions on these generally, with references to the words of Jesus. Chapter 3 attempts to explain how one vice leads to another: anger to murder, concupiscence to adultery, and so forth.

When Jesus comes, he'll remove the weeds.

@Space Merchant as regards those yucky videos (I didn't even want to watch them, the titles and picture was bad enough!😝) obviously Jesus would not want us to go and attempt to worship God with people dressed in drag taking the lead in worship. The Bible's counsel is clear about those who have a form of godly devotion but prove false to its power: "from these turn away." There is no need to make extra rules about secret judicial hearings. "From these turn away." Everybody can see that the person is in drag. There's no need for a committee meeting.🙂

8 hours ago, redHarmonioussparrow said:

OTHERS WHO MERIT HONOR
13 Those related to us in the faith certainly merit honor and respect. This is especially true of the elders who are taking the lead. (Read 1 Timothy 5:17.) We honor these brothers regardless of their nationality, education, social standing, or financial status. The Bible refers to them as “gifts in men,” and they are a key part of God’s arrangement to care for the needs of his people. (Eph. 4:8) Think of congregation elders, circuit overseers, Branch Committee members, and the members of the Governing Body. Our brothers and sisters in the first century had high regard for those appointed to take the lead, and we feel similarly today. We do not idolize well-known representatives of the Christian congregation or react in their presence as if angels were standing nearby. Still, we do respect and honor such brothers for their hard work and humility.—Read 2 Corinthians 1:24; Revelation 19:10.
 

Showing honor to someone doesn't mean building them a castle complex by the lake because you hope they'll remember you and "pay you back when they're kings in heaven."

Showing honor to someone doesn't mean paying them to preach for you (or paying them to publish magazines and videos so you don't have to talk or think when you preach).

Showing honor to someone doesn't mean you enable them in a way that tempts them to disobey God's commands about working for their own living.

Showing honor to someone means treating them respectfully and caring about their welfare, both at present and everlasting welfare.

Showing honor to someone means being willing to tell them truth even when they don't want to hear it.

Showing honor to someone means protecting them from harm or warning them when they are in harms way.

57 minutes ago, redHarmonioussparrow said:

The following is a timeline tracing the history of Christianity.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_Christianity

 

That timeline is interesting, however it does incorrectly place the writing of the Didache to 80 CE (+/-20) as if it was written timewise along with the gospels of Matthew and Luke. Scholars disagree as to the actual date the Didache was written. Here is what another Wikipedia article on the Didache says about the date:

The reason we know the date is incorrect is because of the contents of the Didache. The Didache apostatizes from what the apostles taught in several areas. Jesus, Paul, and John foretold that would happen after the apostles died. Since John wrote Revelation around 96 CE, the Didache would not have been in circulation yet by that time of 80 CE.

Many of the traditions described in the Didache appear to have been reintroduced old Pharisaical traditions, such as special days for fasting, specific directions on the temperature of the baptismal water as well as an alternative form of baptism by sprinkling water on the head instead of full immersion, and specifically worded prayers to be recited three times a day. The modern disfellowshipping tradition of not talking to someone being shunned (like what the Pharisees did in kicking people out of the synagogue) is also described in the Didache:

From Chapter 15 of the Didache "But to anyone that acts amiss against another, let no one speak, nor let him hear anything from you until he repents."

https://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/didache-roberts.html

8 hours ago, Equivocation said:

8 hours ago, AudreyAnnaNana said:

@Equivocation, I just got back from the 2023 Convention of Jehovah's Witnesses. Some people who have known me and claimed to be my friends for two decades were willing to treat me as if I am invisible for no reason at all except that they follow the commands of men ahead of the command of God.

Well that is unfortunate, but from the looks of it, maybe you were excommunicated? That disciplinary action made by elders results in congregation ties being cut, but it doesn't stop you from attending meetings or listening to talks. That action wasn't made by man, but if you really look into where it came from, it came from Jesus and later applied by the early Christians, for instance, Paul who instructed the Corinthians. Even if someone is excommunicated, elders can make the attempt to meet with and talk to the person to see what's up.

Dear brother, @Equivocation, I know in "theory" they tell everybody "it doesn't stop you from attending meetings or listening to talks, but that's not the reality, just like it's not the reality that "it came from Jesus". Jesus would not approve of what goes on in these disfellowshippings. Let me show you what I mean.

Here are some communications with the elders in congregation before they disfellowshipped me. They were mad because I obeyed Jesus' words and Bible principles. I wouldn't say Amen to hypocritical prayers so when I turned off my audio/video during Zoom meetings they took away that "privilege". Then when meetings resumed in person they revoked my "privilege" to attend on the basis that I had sent emails to the friends asking for help and warning about abuse in the congregation.

Then they lied to the local police department in order to get a trespassing ban against me. After that, they set up a judicial hearing at the KH so I couldn't attend, but when I told the friends in the congregation about the bogus charges the elder went back to the police department and said he didn't mean it about the "harassment" charges so they were dropped (he had actually been emailing me on a regular basis to do work for him on the territories right up until the judicial hearing scheduling). The elders got the trespassing ban removed but they didn't tell me, they just said it was removed for the day of the judicial hearing, so I attended and then appealed. They set up the appeal at a different KH and never told me the ban was removed until this year when I went to request to go to the Memorial. When I wrote to the KH post office box or emailed them they do not respond.

@EquivocationI sent all this info also to Bethel. They don't care. They are wolves, not shepherds. They don't care about the sheep. It's fake. It's about the money and the prominence. If they cared, they would talk to the sheep who ask for help. Many of the friends are just going along with all the disfellowshipping doctrine stuff because they are indoctrinated and think that's how to obey Jehovah, but Jehovah hates it. They are following commands of men as doctrines. It doesn't please Jehovah at all.

3 hours ago, Equivocation said:

I don't see how Christian Values and Bible study amongst family members is false.

I agree with you - Christian values and Bible study amongst family members isn't false, but it is a disfellowshipping offense according to the organization.

(That's what I got "disfellowshipped" for. When, motivated by Christian values, I protected my family by reporting abuse, and when I shared the scriptural reasons for doing so with my spiritual family, I was falsely labeled a reviler causing divisions and "disfellowshipped".)

Here are screenshots of some of the emails with the local elders. The branch was also sent copies of the information, as well as the GB, the legal department and the service department. They did not follow Bible principles. They protected the abusers and used the disfellowshipping doctrine to remove one of the victims in hopes that their racket of lording it over the flock wouldn't be disturbed.

I wrote and wrote to GB to help because they always say "we love you very much." They don't love us. They didn't reply until after my disfellowshipping was announced locally. One of the elders here has a son at Bethel, Jeffrey Fletcher, who is one of Mark Sanderson's secretaries. Interestingly, after my disfellowshipping was announced, my letters from Mark Sanderson came back with a big red "REJECTED" stamped on them.

1 hour ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Can the biblical text be completely trusted?

The first Bible was created by the Catholic Church.

Then the Protestants made their own Bible.

Afterwards, WTJWorg intervened and made their own Bible/s (few versions).

And to make everything more interesting, theological minds of different religions have created intricate interpretations and are harassing lost human souls with them day and night. Other souls who are not considered lost, but have found meaning for themselves in one of the interpretations will not fare any better than other people..., For time and chance happen to all.

I have a car. It's not perfect, but it gets me where I need to go. Even though it's got issues, I don't throw it out, because it's all I've got to go in, unless I want to walk everywhere.

Until we can read Hebrew and Aramaic and Greek and find the original manuscripts (which are no longer in existence) we're going to have to do the best we can with what we've got - imperfectly copied and translated manuscripts and translations. We do have Jehovah's holy spirit to help us apply the Bible counsel; His holy spirit which doesn't corrode or get lost. When we prayerfully follow the Bible direction to the best of our abilities in harmony with holy spirit, we will get through better than if we didn't have Bible principles. 

When Jesus gets here, he will tell us directly what to do. He's not here yet. The Bible is the temporary means to get through this mess of a world. It's the best book we've got to direct us. Some people want to throw it out, but I don't recommend it. I've tried three different ways: (1) No Bible direction (2) Bible direction mixed with poisoned publications (3) Bible direction. It's no contest - hands down in my experience following God's Word is the only way to fly.

2 hours ago, Equivocation said:

So the question is, if excommunication was an issue, why did Jesus establish it and why did Paul actually remove wrongdoers from the congregation if, in your words, it is a wrong practice? And secondly, you never explained how anyone, and or any Jehovah’s Witnesses should deal with a wrongdoer, knowing unrepentant sins can ruin a congregation community.

Paul excommunicated Christian who were unrepentant and continued to practice sexual immorality. Paul also excommunicated Hymenaeus and Alexander. Was Paul in the wrong?

@Equivocation, Jesus did not establish the practice of shunning as it is done today. Jesus ate with sinners. Jesus talked with and ate with Zacchaeus before Zacchaeus repented. The Pharisees were the ones who shunned people, and after the apostles died many old Pharisaical traditions crept into the organization. Ostracism was practiced in Greek culture. The Pharisees loved adopting pagan practices.

The context of Paul's words helps us to understand them better.

"This instruction I entrust to you, my child Timothy, in harmony with the prophecies that were made about you, that by these you may go on waging the fine warfare,  holding faith and a good conscience, which some have thrust aside, resulting in the shipwreck of their faith.  Hy·me·naeʹus and Alexander are among these, and I have handed them over to Satan so that they may be taught by discipline not to blaspheme."

(1 Timothy 1:18-20)

In context, Paul's first letter to Timothy included counsel to reject those who teach false stories. "Reject" doesn't mean treat a person like the way the Greeks ostracized people. Paul's second letter explained more about Hymenaeus...

"But reject empty speeches that violate what is holy, for they will lead to more and more ungodliness, and their word will spread like gangrene. Hy·me·naeʹus and Phi·leʹtus are among them.  These men have deviated from the truth, saying that the resurrection has already occurred, and they are subverting the faith of some."

(2 Timothy 2:16-18)

It was the teachings that were to be rejected. Jesus said to love our enemies, to feed our enemies when they are hungry. That would imply talking to them and even eating with them at times.

Paul's words were not some kind of cut-and-paste method of "excommunication technique". The men mentioned in First and Second Timothy were not being disciplined for being adulterers, drunkards, homosexuals. They were being disciplined for being false teachers. Paul was telling Timothy not to let such men take the lead in teaching in the congregation.

Paul's counsel to the wrongdoer in Corinth was a different situation. That man was living immorally. Everybody in the congregation knew but was still eating the Memorial with him. The counsel to not eat the Memorial meal with the man is totally different than the counsel given here about Hymenaeus, Philetus, and Alexander.