bruceq

Isn't that what we encourage people to do in the Ministry, to BECOME Jehovah's Witnesses ?
How can we encourage others to exercise THEIR freedom of thought and expression ...
... when we deny it to EACH OTHER ?
Oh yeah ... I forgot ... we hold the entire family as hostages ... to prevent that.
Never mind.
The Truth about THAT ...... is what got us thrown out of Russia.
.... even post Soviets know better.

We are way off topic here (not your fault) but it's impossible to discuss a controversial topic without such subjects coming up. I think that what happened was fairly obvious only to those who watched the tension build up from about 1975 until 1979. The big blow-up actually happened internally in the late spring of 1979 but the repercussions didn't start happening until the spring of 1980, when heads first started to roll. (My work at Bethel started in 1976 and lasted until 1982.)  What really happened is much more complex, and I don't think it had much of anything to do with the popularity of group Bible reading. I think the crackdown on group Bible reading was just a knee-jerk response. If I had to simplify it, I'd say . . . . . we need another topic to discuss this, because it's just not that simple.

The first Governing Body did a fantastic job - but when we start looking at the incompetencies in the congregations etc.  (the issue with the bias regarding the feeding of the widows; the issues which arose regarding the circumcision, eating food previously offered to idols etc..)..another picture emerges.  These were all issues that were not immediately addressed and could have caused some distress in the congregations for a period of time.... until the matter was taken up with the GB or other solutions were found.    It was necessary for Paul to write letters and keep a watchful eye on new undesirable things in the congregations such as false teachings.  etc..
Today we have the same issues - nothing has changed concerning the desires of mankind and its endeavors.  To me the test is this:  when other churches come and challenge us with their scholarship - I look at what they are DOING on the ground.  Are THEY fulfilling the prophecy of Matt 24:14 - or are we?   Do they have a slave who is feeding the entire world free of charge - or are we?
So imperfect as we are - we are being obedient to Jehovah and doing the work he gave us to do - miraculously not by our own power.... even if everything is not perfect and needs constant work.

In field service we are in the business of changing peoples way of thinking and learning to think for themselves.  However, freedom of thought comes with responsibility and self-control.  Satan did not use this correctly and neither did Adam.  He did not control his freedom of thinking and his subsequent desires and broke his relationship with Jehovah.  So NO - in field service we teach people to think for themselves but explore a thinking in line with Jehovah's thinking - not away from Jehovah's thinking.   One can use freedom of expression/thinking in a bad way - just like every other good thing.
I belonged to one of the protestant churches with a 400 year history of dogmatic adherence to teachings that were laid down as law by the church father.  No change to teachings in 400 years.  Thank goodness I now belong to a religion which is prepared to cautiously adapt to new thinking and re-investigate its older core teachings.   Sometimes in the past they have not been as cautious as they should have been and maybe in future too - but at least they are prepared to be open to change and to grow! not stagnate in ancient hoo-ha.

I dont and I didnt say that. I try look for good in people not dwell on mistakes.

Again your comments testify your looking at this from a human perspective...comments like "Inherited tradition" as if we are just a religion of Christendom and not the True Faith under Christ as leader.  We all need adjustments in veiwpoints from time to time. But Jesus does the adjustments. And the two in 2 Tim had a bad attitude about it they were trying to "subvert" others by being dogmatic against Jesus's headship as in control of the Congreagations' teachings.
{"You don't feel like as if you are required to test this doctrine and make sure before you begin believing it and promoting it yoursel"?}
No if Jesus says it is true for now then it is not up to me to change that or question it. That would be presumptuous to think I know better than Jesus. I also have my own ideas dont take me wrong. For example I think the "entire" First Resurrection may happen at the very end of the GT just before Armageddon rather than 1918 just as years ago I always thought the GT would last a number of years like in the First Century by 1995 that came out. But not because of ME. However there is a Scripture in Revelation 14:13 seems to contradict my thinking on the resurrection being totally at the end of the second "phase". But the point I am making is it is ok to speculate on such things but I am not of the Governing Body and it is not up to anyone to try and reform Jesus' teachings. We are given food at the "proper" time that is proper for Jesus to turn that Chariot in any given direction since we do not have the map as to what the reasons are for any given change as humans on earth. We simply follow our "head" of the Congregation. I don't mind some of your "thinking" but I do when it sounds more like "this must be so about 1914...and thus dogmatically say the Governing Body is mistaken when Jesus is the one in control of all teachings.

Agree Jesus is head of the Christian  Congregation, not the Jewish one who killed him.

I dont and I didnt say that. I try look for good in people not dwell on mistakes.

Thanks for showing such true concern. It's deeply appreciated. Those old posts are still in this thread. The ones that were moved to a separate thread (so far) made up 6 or 7 of the 20 pages of this thread. So those posts are still here, and in the same order, but by moving so many near-adjacent posts, they fall on different pages now. 
Regarding Bethel experiences, I look back on all of it overall with fond and happy memories. I know there was an initial shock, not so much at the existence of cursing and abusive behavior, but at the pervasiveness and acceptance of it among those with high levels of responsibility. I just typed up two cases that I thought were informative to your point but removed them to avoid raising new topics. The point was that I sometimes mistook mildness and meekness for humility, when it could also be paired with the height of egotism. And in another case where a brother ranted loudly and even slammed a newly published book across the room, I came to appreciate that he really thought he was protecting the worldwide congregation from error. As a young person, I didn't have the tools to understand people very well, and for many years still we continue to learn from new experiences that shed light on old ones.
But when we realize and accept that some negative type of behavior is widespread, we also tend to accept it ourselves too easily, I think. And I'm sure the level of privilege has something to do with that. I had excellent and wonderful assignments, and I wouldn't have risked them to give any kind of feedback to someone who could control my assignments. I would expect an argument here and there in the bindery or pressroom, and yet I heard they were rare. I wondered if they were worse among persons of greater responsibility. These weren't daily occurrences, of course, because we always tend to remember and highlight the exceptions. Even if those exceptions are negative.
Obviously, when it comes to doctrinal questions, I do the same thing here on the forum. I could go on and on about why our stance on war, hell and Trinity, for example, is such a good thing in that doesn't just set us apart, but also produces a much healthier Christianity than we could expect from those who see things differently. But instead, I assume we all know that alrady and try to share something that I think we probably do wrong, and which I believe can hurt our Christianity and spirituality unless we look into it.
(By the way, I mostly push the idea that we look into something even if my reasons appear too strongly promoted. I don't usually have a specific solution about exactly what we must do to resolve the issues that arise. I think that's what a Governing Body is for. I might have ideas but don't think it's my place to push a specific solution when there are multiple choices of solutions. However, I always think that discussions can help prepare us for change, and will promote less dogmatism, and therefore more humility in the meantime. This helps us empathize with those we meet in field service and other interested persons.)
On the issue of false rumors starting from nothing, I know it doesn't make much sense. We'd rather believe there was a kernel of truth to them. But in this case, I think I was there to watch the germination of a different kind of  phenomenon. I saw brothers and sisters change from being loving to almost literally "spitting" in a split second when they heard about the "apostasy" charges that several persons received. It was the incongruent variety of extra charges that were heaped upon some of the brothers and sisters that got to me. Within days, these might have coalesced into only one or two charges that were finally settled upon, but even these were clearly far-fetched and sometimes contradictory. I think it's more of a matter of our own minds not being able to manage the "justice" of casting out brothers and sisters that were so loving and kind and would do anything for you yesterday, but were called a disgusting cancer today. I think the mind just needs to create a story to solve the dissonance.
Your point about looking forward instead of back is so apt. I have three children, and in raising them, we often made the mistake of trying to draw out every detail of a conflict between any two of them. We wanted the whole story each time. Each person's version, and then as parents we know doubt imposed on our own compromised versions on top of it to make it coherent. What a waste of time! Your counsel to look forward, and focus on what we'll all do in the future to help each other avoid conflict creates on-going trust and therefore misconceptions and imputed bad motives don't have so much "breeding" room.
I have a feeling that the current GB get along many times better than the 17 at once during my tour of duty. I hear from a friend that these kinds of issues are more likely only from the more competitive among the "helpers." I visited Patterson early last year (and Brooklyn Bethel, too, but it doesn't tell you as much any more) and I see a much more professional group who appear less likely to let education levels, class differences, and various insecurities get in the way.

I dont and I didnt say that. I try look for good in people not dwell on mistakes.

Do they? Or do they not remind us of journalists who all day, every day, identify problems for others to fix. And when the fix is in, they point out what is wrong with that, too. It's a great job to have.
 
Possibly. But does it not just as equally provide fuel for those with flame throwers?
I don't think it has worked that way on this forum. People leave with approximately the same level of empathy they had on arrival. It is a fruit of God's spirit (you can probably tease it out of the list somehow) not dependent or necessarily helped by public airing.
When they devise a new Bible training school there at headquarters, they put themselves through it first. This indicates to me that they are not devising material to 'control the masses' - (I can hear some making that accusation now) Instead, they recognize that all are to be 'taught by Jehovah,' themselves foremost. It is a recognition of their own shortcomings, as descendants of Adam, and a renewed determination to seek what is higher.
To whatever extent it is true that the new ones are having a love-in and the old ones fought like cats and dogs, should we attribute it to public discussions? Or to being taught by Jehovah?

Insider,  I agree with you that the GB seems more calm and kinder now and more mature BUT this does not mean that they will not fall foul of some other sinful quality!  And it is not always Satan - it is just the sinfulness and wrong desires (dominance/competitiveness/ ego) in each of us which leads to bad behavior. Satan will also use any flaw in a person if he sees a gap.
This is why I always caution that we must all of us watch ourselves when it comes to ambition (even in the truth); do not believe that you have the only way of doing something; and ANY form of control over others must be avoided.  If we do not cooperate - we are abusing our power.  A child can abuse the power he has over the family when he does not cooperate.  He can make his parents life difficult.  and.... where there is no peace.... then righteousness cannot grow.  One must keep peace at all costs ..... but many have not learnt that yet because we are all at different levels of development.  Some also learn some things faster than others.
I have been on field service with sisters that are so controlling that I actually want to avoid them the next time - but force myself to be impartial and overlook this DEADLY quality because it destroys unhypocrytical love..   They are usually older sisters and set in their ways - so I try to find the good in them.
I think the shouting match that Paulus had with Barnabas is a good reason for us to not expect people to be perfect and where ever people are - imperfection is sure to follow - and there is always that EGO to a stronger or lesser degree. The anointed man who slept with his own mother and then was later accepted back into the congregation just shows the level to which Jehovah can forgive and what we must be prepared to forgive..... I also believe to speak my mind openly but always try to do it in a loving way.  When in doubt - show love. Sort things immediately in a nice way.... and it has worked for me.  When I was younger I was afraid to speak out but as Paul said: the older sisters also have a role to play to inspire the younger ones and teach the young wives to love their husbands.
The new meeting materials that focus on Christian living - I was very happy when this new feature was brought in because I thought this was really a facet of our Christian living which was neglected before... yea - so we all have our little peeves....  but I honestly believe we must overlook this and get on with only focusing on Jehovah.
My brother - when he was in prison for the truth ( 3 years) told me that he saw some seriously nasty things amongst the brothers (people are just people and immature) and it caused divisions - while they were all trying to keep their integrity to Jehovah.... so yes... I do think that we may in future be thrown into prison together and then we will have to cope with each other..... this will not be a piece of cake.... but if we can do it we will get the crown of life!  Sometimes out tests come from within the congregation!

Of course that could be part of what he has in mind, but Russell never predicted the start of the Great War we now call World War I.

I'm going to venture he's referring to 1914 being the start of The Great War (WWI)?

You quoted from a religious website that is number 1,061 in ranking. I am sure you can do better.
Test:
 
(Philippians 4:8) 8 Finally, brothers, whatever things are true, whatever things are of serious concern, whatever things are righteous, whatever things are chaste, whatever things are lovable, whatever things are well-spoken-of, whatever things are virtuous, and whatever things are praiseworthy, continue considering these things. 

Yes and also the Librarian is suppose to keep "certain" ones QUIET. Not you of course as neither of us talk much here and when we do it is 30 sec or less as it should be. 
ALL aspects of 1914 doctrine are now problematic from Christendoms point of view. 
I certainly hope so.

Thanks  "You should all speak in agreement and that there should be no divisions among you,  but that you may be completely united in the same mind and in the same line of thought". 1 Cor. 1:10! 

Yes and to the ancients who did not understand science a visiting comet would be quite a spectacle even more than an solar eclipse would be. And bolides making impact or even a close call like the one in Russia a couple years ago may have caused a "DI ASTER" or even a Global Deluge. 

(Philippians 4:8) 8 Finally, brothers, whatever things are true, whatever things are of serious concern, whatever things are righteous, whatever things are chaste, whatever things are lovable, whatever things are well-spoken-of, whatever things are virtuous, and whatever things are praiseworthy, continue considering these things. 
Don't leave plenty of emotes to use yet.

You'd think so, right?
Sometimes I think that even if the Bible had already called Jesus "the king of kings" and "ruler of the kings of the earth" that it still wouldn't be enough.

Except for people with a combination of tourette's syndrome, dislexia, and one leg shorter than the other, which gives you brain-tilt .... that seems to wrap up THAT discussion.

I'll try to do some research on it. It has been about 30 years since I have on this particular subject and I don't remember and am quite busy with pioneering and stuff. The Watchtower I believe has not said anything about it since about 1987 questions from readers if I recall...but nothing since so it is not probably an area of interest anymore anyway. Although they never have said it was untrue or changed. {Although the type/antitype may come to mind here}  But like I said we may never know if it is true until we get there and perhaps not even then since the Bible does not directly mention it. And it dosent' actually matter to gain everlasting life. But it is fun to research anyway. I do remeber it going back over 2,000 years to time of Philo {a Jew} and he got it from somewhere earlier and ill try and find some resources for that. {Point is it's origin was not Christian but predated Christianity as Philo died in 50 C.E.]

You think I can control this thing? I'm at least half the problem!
[edited to add:]
Notice: Since this thread is so long. I might be splitting off some of the unrelated topics to other threads. I just learned that I can do this, so I will only move my own at first to get used to this awesome power. Also, I have no interest in moving around every little comment that people make just because it's off topic. There would be no point to breaking off to a musical-themed thread, for example, because I don't think anyone expected to start a full-blown discussion on that topic. But there have been a few topics that might be interesting as stand-alone topics.

Actually I wrote a book [never published] dealing with the over 500 versions of flood legends all around the world and the connection that God used a comet [Like the flood comet mentioned by Whinston] to bring about the Flood ,very extensive book about 10 years ago and I believe I do recall some mention of a 7,000 year calendar in some ancient civilizations from thousands of years ago that were associated with the Flood of Noah's day that came from their stories as told throughout eons of time. The book is called "The Harbinger of Doom - Evidence of a Global Flood Caused by the Progenitor of Encke's Comet". I think there is mention in some of my research books on the Flood I have hundreds so it may take a while to find something. Here is a photo of my Flood library:                Footnote: Did you know the origin of the word "Disaster" means "evil star" - di = evil and aster = star interesting hey !!! 

I'll try to do some research on it. It has been about 30 years since I have on this particular subject and I don't remember and am quite busy with pioneering and stuff. The Watchtower I believe has not said anything about it since about 1987 questions from readers if I recall...but nothing since so it is not probably an area of interest anymore anyway. Although they never have said it was untrue or changed. {Although the type/antitype may come to mind here}  But like I said we may never know if it is true until we get there and perhaps not even then since the Bible does not directly mention it. And it dosent' actually matter to gain everlasting life. But it is fun to research anyway. I do remeber it going back over 2,000 years to time of Philo {a Jew} and he got it from somewhere earlier and ill try and find some resources for that. {Point is it's origin was not Christian but predated Christianity as Philo died in 50 C.E.]