JW Insider

One size fits all is not necessarily a good approach either, as everyone is at a different stage of knowledge, readiness, etc. Back when I was so sure we were right about everything in every detail I felt comfortable working college/university housing territory with an improvised presentation that went something like this, depending on the student's style of speaking: . . . A lot of people of religious faiths might come up to you claim that they aren't here to convert you. But listen, I'll admit that we are; and it's because we are sure we are right, and we're sure it's important. I know that's easy to say, but it's why we'd like to prove it. So we offer free home Bible studies at your convenience to fit your own schedule. This way, in case you don't believe us, you can ask us anything you want and we'll get an answer to all your Bible questions. It was a bit heady and haughty, but I could literally start more "Bible Studies" than I knew what to do with. I was giving away "Bible Studies" to other pioneers, and a day of 4 or 5 Bible Studies was easier than cart witnessing is today. One month I had 20 Bible Studies (and even got counseled over it by our Circuit Overseer because my magazine placements were down). A few of these students became Witnesses, and two of them even came to NYC to visit me at Bethel and in my NYC congregation.

I simply quoted the Watchtower where it stated the following: *** ws16 January p. 21 par. 4 “We Want to Go With You” *** This means that the Jew is not just one person but represents the whole group of anointed ones. I never used the term "remnant" although I did reference the "anointed." I believe you already understand the reason for the somewhat different uses of these terms in our publications. Thanks for saying you want to get it right. This is not just about my opinion, though. I am happy to express my own opinion, even if my own opinion differs somewhat from the Watchtower's explanation. But this was also a case of wondering why John seems so sure that this verse cannot refer to any group like the Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses. It's almost as if he is sure that somewhere there is a truly anointed person, or group of such persons, who it should be obvious that we should be following. Perhaps they don't exist yet, in John's opinion, or they do and they are just difficult to find among all the "noise." We can get to all of this, but I had a few other follow up questions for John, for which I had hoped to get his range of opinion first on what the verse could mean. I wondered just how different John's expectation (for others) would be from the Watchtower's explanation. For example, isn't it possible that John might see it possible that there are several different religious groups each focusing on a different kind of ministry. Some might be doing great work in helping people understand certain important doctrines, but make mistakes in other areas. Perhaps there is a very good religious-based ministry that does an excellent job pushing for legislative reform, religious institutional procedural changes, and general social reform in CSA matters. Would he expect that group to also teach the correct view of Trinity, Hell, Neutrality, etc.? I'm wondering just how "perfect" he would expect any human religious organization to be if it were to specialize, say, in pushing sound Bible doctrinal reform. John has actually said enough already so that I realize I don't need to ask him all the questions I had wanted. My own opinions here are somewhat separate. Although on the matter of Zechariah 8, I think that chapter really does provide an excellent and important image for us to remember about our own attempts to make converts to true Christianity. Jesus gave the illustration that just like a tree is known for its fruits, we would also attract persons who want to join our particular Christian brotherhood. Also, we know that 'by this people will recognize if we are truly Christ's disciples, if we have love among ourselves.' It reminds us that converts aren't just made from a door to door ministry. Just as an example, the Seventh Day Adventists started out similarly in time to when the Watchtower organization started out, yet they have no specific door*to*door focus, and have grown to nearly 20 million adherents. JTR has mentioned something similar when he says that if we are really doing something right, and are blessed by Jehovah for it, we might expect people to knocking on our door instead of the other way around. (This is not an argument that the SDA's are doing it right and we are doing it wrong.) On these additional issues about my personal views and opinions about other sheep, great crowd, remnant, body of Christ, anointed, etc., I have already begun answering, and I'm sure you will find plenty to oppose.

Thanks. I almost gave you an upvote, but I'm always afraid that a few seconds later a cartoon might show up in the same post that I just can't upvote in good conscience. And yes, if you're wondering, it's because the movie "Deliverance" was rated R.

Actually, this was easily and immediately proven to be a complete lie. Pathetically, you had to repeat this particular lie over and over again, each time with exactly ZERO evidence of any kind. [ftwpiynp]

Note that the following rather long post is my own opinion of what I believe the Bible is saying about the "anointed" and the "other sheep," and for that matter the "great crowd" and the "heavenly hope" and the "earthly hope." I didn't put the entire explanation here about how and why this is what I believe the Bible is teaching because it would be much too long. But if you have questions about it, perhaps I can at least offer additional information on the questions. I understand that the term "anointed remnant" refers to all of the truly anointed living on earth at any given time, and that this will be so up until the time when the last of the anointed on earth is taken to their heavenly reward either through resurrection or their "harpazo" up until the time of the final judgment associated with Armageddon. Therefore, at the current time, the anointed remnant refers to all of the truly anointed still living anywhere on the earth at this particular time. I believe that the anointed are included in the "little sheep" that Peter was told to feed, when Jesus told him to "feed my little sheep." I believe that Jesus is the Governing One who will shepherd his people Israel, especially this flock of sheep called spiritual Israel, soon to be the completed "Body of Christ" with the Governing One as the only Head and Leader. (Matt 2:6) I believe that when Jesus separates the sheep from the goats he is separating the anointed sheep as well as other sheep who don't identify themselves as anointed. (Matt 25:32) I believe there is both a new heaven and a new earth, and the kingdom we pray for involves God's will being done both in heaven and on earth, and Jesus said that the meek would inherit the earth. Therefore it should be natural that many persons (like myself) who read these promises about a future paradise "new earth" will desire to live on that new earth, not desirous of being rulers in heaven, and that this desire will be granted to many millions, even billions of people, who are also sheep-like. I believe the anointed sheep and a great crowd other sheep are therefore part of the same "one flock," under the governorship of the same one chief shepherd, with elders/overseers acting as 'undershepherds' or 'helping shepherds.' (Hebrews 13:20) . . .Now may the God of peace, who brought up from the dead the great shepherd of the sheep, our Lord Jesus, with the blood of an everlasting covenant, (1 Peter 2:25) . . .For you were like sheep going astray, but now you have returned to the shepherd and overseer of your souls. (1 Peter 5:2-4) 2 Shepherd the flock of God under your care, serving as overseers, not under compulsion, but willingly before God; not for love of dishonest gain, but eagerly; 3 not lording it over those who are God’s inheritance, but becoming examples to the flock. 4 And when the chief shepherd has been made manifest, you will receive the unfading crown of glory. (Revelation 7:16, 17) 16 They will hunger no more nor thirst anymore, neither will the sun beat down on them nor any scorching heat, 17 because the Lamb, who is in the midst of the throne, will shepherd them and will guide them to springs of waters of life. And God will wipe out every tear from their eyes.” I'm thinking that you may have asked the question about "other sheep" because I have previously said that I believe John 10:16 refers to other "gentile" sheep. These gentiles were not of the fold that Jesus and his disciples preached to while Jesus was alive on earth. We know that Jesus was only sent to the lost sheep of the house of Israel, but would soon bring in sheep from the nations who were not of that fold. They would be brought into the same flock. (Matthew 10:5, 6) 5 These 12 Jesus sent out, giving them these instructions: “Do not go off into the road of the nations, and do not enter any Sa·marʹi·tan city; 6 but instead, go continually to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. (Matthew 15:24) 24 He answered: “I was not sent to anyone except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.” (Acts 13:43-46) . . .So after the synagogue assembly was dismissed, many of the Jews and the proselytes who worshipped God followed Paul and Barʹna·bas, who, as they spoke to them, urged them to remain in the undeserved kindness of God. . . . 45 When the [other] Jews saw the crowds, they were filled with jealousy . . . 46 Then Paul and Barʹna·bas boldly said to them: “It was necessary for the word of God to be spoken first to you. Since you are rejecting it and do not judge yourselves worthy of everlasting life, look! we turn to the nations. (Romans 15:8-16) 8 For I tell you that Christ became a minister of those who are circumcised in behalf of God’s truthfulness, so as to verify the promises He made to their forefathers, 9 and that the nations might glorify God for his mercy. . . . 15 However, I have written to you more outspokenly on some points, so as to give you another reminder, because of the undeserved kindness given to me from God 16 for me to be a public servant of Christ Jesus to the nations.. . . (Ephesians 2:11-19) . . .Therefore, remember that at one time you, people of the nations by fleshly descent, were the ones called “uncircumcision” by those called “circumcision,” which is made in the flesh by human hands. 12 At that time you were without Christ, alienated from the state of Israel, strangers to the covenants of the promise; you had no hope and were without God in the world. 13 But now in union with Christ Jesus, you who were once far off have come to be near by the blood of the Christ. 14 For he is our peace, the one who made the two groups one and destroyed the wall in between that fenced them off. 15 By means of his flesh he abolished the enmity, the Law of commandments consisting in decrees, in order to make the two groups in union with himself into one new man and to make peace, 16 and to reconcile fully both peoples in one body to God through the torture stake, because he had killed off the enmity by means of himself. 17 And he came and declared the good news of peace to you who were far off, and peace to those near, 18 because through him we, both peoples, have free access to the Father by one spirit. 19 So you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but you are fellow citizens of the holy ones and are members of the household of God, This is a belief where you will probably see huge differences between my own view and the Watchtower view. And yet, I still think the Watchtower provides a correct view of the an earthly hope and a heavenly hope. It's just that I don't find that particular difference supported in the same verses that the Watchtower has traditionally used to make this indentification and distinction. I should add, however, that I also believe that the "great crowd" mentioned in Revelation 7 and 19 is actually the same great crowd of people from the nations Jesus referred to as "other sheep" in John 10:16. But these are not specifically those with an earthly hope distinguished from those with a heavenly hope. In fact, the great crowd mentioned in Revelation are referred to as "in heaven" and this idea is further indicated in several ways. These ones come out of the great tribulation to their heavenly reward in order to join the full number who had come out of Israel. After all, the "great crowd" in Revelation are spoken of as "in heaven" and are actually rendering sacred service in the inner sanctuary of the temple, and therefore they are spoken of as seeing God's face, having God's tent over them, being guided to fountains of waters of life, and they will rule as kings forever and ever, and everyone who is guided to fountains of waters of life is a conqueror who inherits these things and is called to be "sons of God." (Revelation 7:14-17) . . . they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15 That is why they are before the throne of God; and they are rendering him sacred service day and night in his temple; and the One seated on the throne will spread his tent over them. 16 They will hunger no more nor thirst anymore, neither will the sun beat down upon them nor any scorching heat, 17 because the Lamb, who is in the midst of the throne, will shepherd them, and will guide them to fountains of waters of life. And God will wipe out every tear from their eyes.” (Revelation 22:3-5) 3 And no more will there be any curse. But the throne of God and of the Lamb will be in [the city], and his slaves will render him sacred service; 4 and they will see his face, and his name will be on their foreheads. 5 Also, night will be no more, and they have no need of lamplight nor [do they have] sunlight, because Jehovah God will shed light upon them, and they will rule as kings forever and ever. (Revelation 19:1) . . .After this I heard what seemed to be a loud voice of a great crowd in heaven. They said: “Praise Jah! The salvation and the glory and the power belong to our God, (Revelation 7:9, 10) . . .After this I saw, and look! a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, dressed in white robes; and there were palm branches in their hands. 10 And they keep shouting with a loud voice, saying: “Salvation we owe to our God, who is seated on the throne, and to the Lamb.” (Revelation 19:6-8) . . .And I heard what sounded like a voice of a great crowd and like the sound of many waters and like the sound of heavy thunders. They said: “Praise Jah, because Jehovah our God, the Almighty, has begun to rule as king! 7 Let us rejoice and be overjoyed and give him glory, because the marriage of the Lamb has arrived and his wife has prepared herself. 8 Yes, it has been granted to her to be clothed with bright, clean, fine linen—for the fine linen stands for the righteous acts of the holy ones.” (Revelation 21:6, 7) . . .To anyone thirsting I will give from the spring of the water of life free. 7 Anyone conquering will inherit these things, and I will be his God and he will be my son. So while it's true that there will be sheep in heaven and sheep on earth, and we call this "two hopes," I believe that our "one hope" (Eph 4:4) is the "new heavens and new earth" that we are awaiting according to his promise. We probably make too much of these terms "great crowd" and "other sheep" as a means of trying to separate those who hold to an earthly hope. But it doesn't mean that I think we have the overall picture wrong.

I probably wasn't clear. The Watchtower considered the 'faithful and discreet slave' to be the complete number of anointed here on the earth (from about 1879 to 1897, and then again from about 1927 to 2011). But recently it has become a small, identifiable group of persons we can know individually by name: the members of the Governing Body. (Between 1897 and 1927 it was taught to be one person we could know individually by name: Charles T. Russell.)

The GB use the argument that many are fed by the hands of a few --and only 8 "NT" Bible writers fed the entire 1st century congregations. And since you can't practically follow many different anointed persons, at least there is a practical way to follow a few. One of the points is that you can't necessarily trust that just any person who claims to be anointed is truly anointed. There really are many claimants that most Witnesses would consider to be just people with mental or emotional problems. Most of us have known such persons in our local congregations. I think this is already a 'given' that other Witnesses realize and the GB are acknowledging it. Of course, it's clear that the GB use this fact with the purpose of adding evidence that only a few persons can really be trusted to represent the anointed. This should lead us to agree with them that Jesus trusts the faithful slave [Governing Body] and therefore we should, too. This is a product, unfortunately, of being so absolutely sure one has the truth. Anyone who would deviate from obvious, rational truth must have a deviant mind. They'd have to be crazy to give up on all the truth based on a few mistakes here and there. Anyone who does so is some kind of apostate, like a dog returning to his vomit, and must be "mentally diseased." I agree that this is a dangerous result of the reminder (acknowledgment) that SOME really do have mental or emotional problems, and we should be wary of giving anything they say too much importance. You will notice that whenever I say something that differs from the GB's current teachings in the WT, that someone like BTK will surely be around to try to discredit it so that no one gives it too much importance. (I think this is actually a safeguard so that no one takes only my own opinions and experiences as something to follow without questioning them first. I welcome the push back, especially when it can help me to further endeavor to make sure of all things.) You say that this is an admission by the GB that they don't really have holy spirit to understand the Bible. It's probably more of a caution not to give just anyone a 'pass.' We shouldn't quote someone who says they are anointed on some doctrinal point, just because we heard it from an 'anointed' person. But the word "necessarily" probably also reminds us that some anointed might get more holy spirit than others, a possible way of saying that we could expect the GB to get more holy spirit to understand Bible truths whenever Jehovah deems it necessary. I don't think they are saying they don't have a clue. I think they are actually (overall) saying to trust them for now, even though things can still become better and clearer, but definitely don't just automatically trust any person claiming to be anointed who disagrees with us. This is practical advice for unity. It might not ALWAYS be the correct advice in all circumstances, but elsewhere they have already admitted that not all their advice will turn out to be correct or Biblical. But then again, what religion can you think of where people are told to just follow anyone who claims authority of some kind?

There was evidently no voice booming from heaven in the original context. I get the sense that it was by reputation. Not even that the nation of Israel was out there trying to make proselytes (converts) but that it was by reputation people were hearing good things about Israel. It was based on a common promise that is found many times in the prophetic books: if the Israelites continue to forsake their spiritual heritage (temple, law, etc) then they will be punished, but if they continue in the ways of Jehovah's law, they will be blessed. In this case, blessed so much that surrounding nations will hear that God is with them, and people from those nations will want to become Israelites, too. We know that the original context is that Jehovah is "jealous" or "zealous" to have his name and reputation known through his people from Zion (Jerusalem) again. And even though he has punished Judah and Israel for sins, he does not regret it. But now is time for a fresh start, and if they handle it right this time, their blessings will be so great as to attract other nations, too. In fact, in the next chapter (Zech 9) the examples were to start with "the eyes of man" in Syrian cities to the north, even reaching to Damascus, then 120 miles north of Damascus (Hamath) and even on to Phoenician cities of Tyre and Sidon. In some limited sense this probably happened as Jews scattered by Babylon 70 years earlier, and Israelites scattered by Assyria nearly 200 years earlier, had settled into these nations all around, but would now want to firmly take hold of those blessings upon true Jews in Jerusalem. Persons they had married, and even proselytes and foreigners would want to join them too. Over the next few hundred years, by the time of Herod and Jesus, in fact, we know of many Jewish proselytes, and strong support of Judaism throughout all parts of the Roman Empire. The LXX from Egypt became a well-read "OT" Bible that was known across the empire. Even a couple of Caesars were friends of Herod, and some wives of prominent Roman leaders took a strong interest in the religion Judaism. Ancient synagogues have been found with inscribed names of Roman patrons who would have provided much of the funding for these synagogues.

I am adding more here to give the simplest view of what the "Governing Body" believes about those who claim to be anointed. The most recent article that explains the scripture makes this point by asking a seemingly silly question. *** ws16 January p. 21 “We Want to Go With You” *** DO WE NEED TO KNOW THE NAMES OF ALL TODAY WHO ARE ANOINTED? . . . . This means that the Jew is not just one person but represents the whole group of anointed ones. The other sheep know this, and they serve Jehovah along with that group. They do not need to know the names of every member of that group and follow each one of them. No one thinks that the truly anointed are ONLY in the Governing Body. However, the only anointed that we are asked to follow cannot practically be ALL the anointed all around the world. In fact we are warned against giving too much attention to "just any" member of the anointed. And, by the same token, any member of the anointed would be out of place to ask for special attention. This might seem wrong, but that is clearly going to help avoid schisms, power struggles, and help drive peace and unity in the congregation. The article goes on to point this out: *** ws16 January p. 22 par. 6 “We Want to Go With You” *** Jehovah’s holy spirit helps his servants to be humble, not proud. (Colossians 3:12) So anointed ones do not think that they are better than others. They know that Jehovah does not necessarily give anointed ones more holy spirit than he gives his other servants. And they do not feel that they can understand Bible truths more deeply than anyone else. *** ws16 January p. 22 par. 7 “We Want to Go With You” *** Although anointed ones feel that it is an honor to be invited to go to heaven, they do not expect others to treat them in a special way. .... So an anointed person is not surprised if some do not believe right away that he has been anointed. He realizes that the Bible tells us not to be quick to believe someone who says that God has given him a special responsibility. *** ws16 January p. 22 par. 8 “We Want to Go With You” *** Anointed Christians do not feel that they should spend time only with other anointed ones, as if they were members of a club. They do not try to find other anointed ones so that they can talk about being anointed or meet in groups to study the Bible. (Galatians 1:15-17) The congregation would not be united if anointed ones did this. They would be working against the holy spirit, which helps God’s people to have peace and unity.—Read Romans 16:17, 18. The article actually offers some reasons why we would not immediately trust that someone who claims to be anointed truly is anointed. Ultimately, this all points to reasons to focus our attention on the Governing Body (faithful and discreet slave) as the identified representatives of the anointed. *** ws16 January pp. 23-25 “We Want to Go With You” *** DO WE NEED TO WORRY ABOUT THE NUMBER? 12 For many years, the number of those who ate the bread and drank the wine at the Memorial kept going down. But recently, that number has been going up every year. Do we need to worry about this? No. Let us see why not. 13 “Jehovah knows those who belong to him.” (2 Timothy 2:19) Unlike Jehovah, the brothers who count the number of people eating the bread and drinking the wine at the Memorial do not know who truly is anointed. So the number includes those who think that they are anointed but are not. For example, some who used to eat the bread and drink the wine later stopped. Others may have mental or emotional problems and believe that they will rule with Christ in heaven. Clearly, we do not know exactly how many anointed ones are left on earth. . . . During the last days, Jehovah has continued to choose people who will be part of the 144,000. (See endnote.) So if God decides to choose some of these just before the end, surely we would not doubt that he is doing the right thing. (Isaiah 45:9; Daniel 4:35; read Romans 9:11, 16.) (See endnote.) We must be careful not to react like the workers who complained about the way their master treated those who started working in the last hour.—Read Matthew 20:8-15. 16 Not all who have the hope of living in heaven are part of “the faithful and discreet slave.” (Matthew 24:45-47) Just as in the first century, Jehovah and Jesus today are using a few people to feed, or teach, many. Only a few anointed Christians in the first century were used to write the Christian Greek Scriptures. And today, only a few anointed Christians have the responsibility to give God’s people “food at the proper time.” Clearly "some of these" claimants are considered truly anointed. But we have no way of knowing who is and who isn't. And even if we did, we would not give them special attention, nor would they give each other special attention, even if they have been known to serve faithfully for long periods of time. One of the reasons for the emphasis on the Governing Body is so that we can say we have identified the truly anointed persons who can properly represent the other anointed persons, and therefore by following and hanging onto their "robe" we (the other sheep) are properly hanging onto the skirt of the Jew. I know you, John, don't believe that the GB represent the "Jew" in the Zechariah prophecy, or that they represent "Christ's brothers" in Matthew. But I think you can see why it makes perfect sense to most Witnesses. It makes sense historically in a way that no other religion can point to in their recent past. And it makes sense practically if one accepts the belief that a Governing Body should represent all the rest of the anointed. I am not claiming that this is the only way to look at it. (For reasons I can explain later.) But I do think we should acknowledge the reasons it makes so much sense to most Witnesses. Your own arguments against it, I think, boil down to the fact you say that the GB have "allowed" child sexual abuse by not doing enough about it, and that the shunning doctrine is unchristian, and that some (much?) of the provided spiritual food has been not good spiritually. But since you have not been able to discover another anointed person or group that non-anointed should "take hold of," then Witnesses would simply respond with 'where else should they go?' Do you really know a group that represents something better? If it were just a matter of a few who feel this way leaving the JWs, what would that accomplish exactly?

I was referring to John Butler as the person who has repeatedly referenced the "10 men who take hold of the skirt of a Jew." I hadn't realized it if "Witness" had also repeatedly referenced this.

I think the Watchtower's interpretation is clear. In many ways it matches up with yours, John. The WT interpretation is that the "Jew" is the truly anointed class of Christians, and the "ten men" are persons out of all the nations who are not of the anointed class but who look to them for guidance, a good example, etc. These non-anointed are shown joining with these anointed in some way. Historically, if we were to accept that the truly anointed persons were represented by the 'governing leaders' of the Bible Students / Jehovah's Witnesses in the last century or so, then the very fact that they were joined (beginning especially around 1935) by a much larger group who then identified themselves as non-anointed seems like a perfect fulfillment. It is easy to see why, in that 2012 life experience article, a person of the "great crowd" who was obviously very enamored with his periodic association with members of the anointed, felt that he was seeing this prophecy fulfilled in his own case. Several of those anointed with whom he had repeated contact served on the Governing Body, or would later serve on the Governing Body. This was clearly a sub-theme of the 2012 Watchtower article based on the following quotes/excerpts: but also several anointed brothers, including Pryce Hughes, Edgar Clay, and Jack Barr, who became a member of the Governing Body. One of my fellow students, Lloyd Barry; one of the instructors, Albert Schroeder; and John Booth, overseer of Kingdom Farm (where Gilead School was located) later became members of the Governing Body. During that time, I got to know such pillars as Milton Henschel, Karl Klein, Nathan Knorr, T. J. (Bud) Sullivan, and Lyman Swingle, all of whom once served on the Governing Body. I have had the privilege of periodically returning to world headquarters in New York. During those visits, I received good advice from different members of the Governing Body. So, while the "Jew" represents the anointed class, we are subtly reminded that the anointed class is represented by the Governing Body, considered to be the core representatives of "Christ's brothers." In the past, of course, when one said "Christ's brothers are the faithful slave" it meant all of the anointed. *** w09 10/15 p. 16 par. 15 “You Are My Friends” *** Therefore, the primary way that those with the earthly hope demonstrate their desire to be friends with Christ is by supporting the faithful slave class. Technically, the "Jew" in Zechariah still does mean all of the anointed, not just the GB. But even before the doctrinal change making them the same entity, the Governing Body had already pointed to themselves as the ones representing the faithful slave. *** ws11 7/15 p. 24 par. 9 Have You Entered Into God’s Rest? *** They show us that Jehovah is using the faithful and discreet slave to teach us the truth. Sometimes the Governing Body, who represents the faithful and discreet slave, reviews how we understand certain truths. So the "Jew" in Zechariah 8 is not just another representation of the Governing Body. But based on the above, it is still intended to be the practical conclusion, when it comes to defining who, we, the "other sheep" firmly hang onto for guidance and direction.

No. It's just me. Just so we're 'on the same page' about what the WT says on the subject. (Because we are on a JW forum.) Whether it's right or wrong or somewhere in between can be discussed later. Also, to provide a bit of 'methodology' about how the WT handles prophetic interpretation.

Regarding the Watchtower's interpretation, a simple and recent explanation is found in the introduction to a 'life experience' article from 2012. https://www.jw.org/en/publications/magazines/w20120415/Seventy-Years-of-Holding-On-to-the-Skirt-of-a-Jew When I was in my early teens, two Bible passages struck me. Today, over 70 years later, I can still remember the time when I grasped the meaning of Zechariah 8:23, which speaks of “ten men” taking hold of “the skirt of a man who is a Jew.” They tell the Jew: “We will go with you people, for we have heard that God is with you people.” THE Jewish man symbolizes anointed Christians, and the “ten men” represent the “other sheep,” or “Jonadabs,” as they were known back then. * (John 10:16) When I understood that truth, I realized how much the fulfillment of my hope to live forever on earth depends upon my loyal support of the anointed class. Jesus’ illustration of “the sheep” and “the goats,” found at Matthew 25:31-46, also deeply impressed me. “The sheep” picture those who receive a favorable judgment during the time of the end because they do good to Christ’s anointed brothers still on earth. As a young Jonadab, I said to myself, ‘Len, if you want to be viewed by Christ as a sheep, you’ve got to support his anointed brothers, accepting their leadership because God is with them.’ That understanding has guided me during more than seven decades. I should note that a few people have come to think that the March 15, 2015 Watchtower indicated that there are no longer any specific classes of people that are identified by prophecies. So they might wonder why the Jew represents anointed Christians and the 'ten men' specifically represent the 'other sheep.' That 2015 article, and this new understanding, was really intended to help us avoid the problem of arbitrarily making up specific applications of interpretation for every Bible parable and historical occurrence, and saying it was the ONLY correct application. Prophecies (like Zechariah) are still considered fair game for interpreting specific applications to classes of people today. (The Watchtower makes exceptions, and still uses the parable-as-prophecy motif for the "sheep and goats" parable, and, of course, the "faithful and discreet slave" parable. There is one other possible parable-as-prophecy exception, but this one is in a prophetic book, Daniel 4's tree dream parable/prophecy.) The idea of only using a historical occurrence in the Bible to only say it "reminds" us of a certain thing, rather than "it must represent this particular thing" was used in the same life experience article mentioned above. For example: . . . she gave me the parcel and left. It contained a warm overcoat. Her loving gesture reminded me of Hannah bringing her young son Samuel a coat while he was serving at the tabernacle.—1 Sam. 2:18, 19. And again at the end of the article: Just before his death, Jesus told his disciples: “You will not always have me” with you. (Matt. 26:11) We other sheep are also aware that we will not always have Christ’s anointed brothers among us on earth. I count it, therefore, an inestimable privilege to have been closely associated for over 70 years with many of the anointed—gratefully holding on to the skirt of a Jew.

@Srecko Sostar, Yes I avoided the word "inspired" for now, because I think it gets us into another topic with its own complexities. But it is a topic I think we can get to (assuming the topic is of interest to others). @JOHN BUTLER, I'd like to consider your view of the scripture in detail. Although I wanted to get a baseline for others, so that we are all clear on the Watchtower's interpretation first. On the issue of organizational or congregational goals, I was merely trying to tie it back to the original context of rebuilding the temple, and then use words that remind many of us of the same type of activities in modern times. You could replace it with your own preferred religious terms: ecclesia, church, synagogue, temple, etc. I meant the same idea with mistakes: meaning mistakes by the Jewish people at the time which can remind us of mistakes made in modern times.

The NWT says at Zechariah 8:23: 23 “This is what Jehovah of armies says, ‘In those days ten men out of all the languages of the nationsj will take hold, yes, they will take firm hold of the robe* of a Jew,* saying: “We want to go with you,k for we have heard that God is with you people.”’”l I have noticed that one poster in particular has referenced this scripture several times and put it in the context of being able to identify the true religion at the time of the final judgment. The poster admits that in the meantime, he can't really tell who that "Jew" represents. But it is evidently associated in his mind with a group of "truly anointed" persons. By this he evidently means those who are truly led by the holy spirit, who are truly motivated by the holy spirit, and who therefore give proper guidance and to others. They should be giving always healthful, if not "perfect" spiritual food, and always at the proper time. For that particular poster, this disqualifies the eight or so men who currently claim to be the "faithful and discreet slave" since they admit that their food is not always perfect (and therefore could not qualify as "at the proper time," either.) When a verse from the "OT" is not specifically repeated in the "NT" with an explanation, we are pretty much on our own to decide whether it has a specific prophetic application to our own day, or to the near future. In many cases the verse will look quite specific, but we can only give it a general application to our own day. In other cases there are specifics, and we can try to make specific applications to those specific references. Of course, in every case we could look to the overall situation, the historical context, and find either warning examples, teaching examples, or encouragement in the words (2 Tim 3:16,17). In this case, the historical context is an audience of Jews having trouble getting up the willingness or courage to overcome obstacles related to rebuilding their temple. Some of those obstacles were economic (including bad harvests) and some of it was the fear of encroaching enemies, and more populous nations around them. And some of it was no doubt an overall despondency that it would take too long and never get finished, and thus be a wasted effort. Those kinds of issues are easily generalized into our own personal issues with respect to overcoming obstacles related to our own spiritual goals. They can also be looked at in terms of our willingness to be involved with organizational goals or congregational goals when economics, delays, mistakes, and the despondency of others can take a toll on our own courage. But what about the Watchtower's usual interpretation of this verse? Is it definitive? Can it mean anything else? These are the kinds of questions that Christians should always ask of everything we believe, if we want to be like the Beroeans, or "make sure of all things."

Brother Jackson did an excellent job under the circumstances. Some of what he said indicated that the GB really would go back and rethink policies that were in place, and I believe it's no coincidence that we have seen more good progress since the ARC hearings. However, I never heard anyone (who watched Jackson's testimony in its entirety) point out any instances or evidences of humility. Sorry to say it, but his overall demeanor, to me, actually stood out as haughty and smug. I don't think that was just me. And it's not that I think this is how he is, or how the GB usually are, I have seen many instances of the GB showing humility and true concern. But I saw several evidences of the opposite, here. In fact, I think that McClellan, took notice of Brother Jackson's (who is an Australian citizen) attempts to reposition his testimony as an "opportunity" and something that worked out because he was only there (traveling in Australia) to take care of his elderly father. In fact, I understand that for no other person did Judge McClellan thank someone for their testimony and then add the words he added here at 1:07:41-45. The Judge, with a possible bit of derisive head-shaking of his own adds: ". . . you are now formally excused from your summons." It's even possible to interpret the half-second loss of Brother Jackson's "smirk" to that very remark at 1:07:47.

Not funny, but that was nearly the exact image I already had in mind when watching an expose of the Catholic Church in Poland over the last hour or so. Using only a few specific cases, they were able to get elderly priests to confess the details in front of their accusers. It's not only an indictment of the prevalence of CSA in the Catholic Church, but an indictment of the lengths the Catholic Church has gone to in covering it up. Watching the collusion of bishops so worried about the reputation of their church, rather than justice for the victims, especially reminded me of your image of hooded robes and scythes. It's long, and in Polish, so if anyone is interested, it's probably best to learn how to speed up a video and add English subtitles for those, like me, who don't know a word of Polish. It has 22,000,000 views already: TELL NO ONE (2019) | Full Documentary Movie by Tomasz Sekielski | English Subtitles

Wish it were that simple. This is only ONE of the reasons to be insular. Another reason to be insular is to hide the fact that you are just like the world in some areas and still hope that people will think of you as no part of the world. In other words, it's to hide your dirty laundry. (Romans 13:11-14) . . .. 12 The night is well along; the day has drawn near. Let us therefore throw off the works belonging to darkness and let us put on the weapons of the light. 13 Let us walk decently as in the daytime, not in wild parties and drunkenness, not in immoral intercourse and brazen conduct, not in strife and jealousy. 14 But put on the Lord Jesus Christ, and do not be planning ahead for the desires of the flesh. I think it's helpful to always remember that we are talking about crimes: crimes that can be akin to rape and murder and torture and kidnapping and terror. Granted there are some aspects of child sexual abuse that don't appear to sound like crimes. Some persons get caught during the times when they are only "grooming" children for more serious abuse. (Romans 13:14 "planning ahead for the desires of the flesh.") A recent court case includes an elder who was able to convince the other elders that it was "accidental touching" before being caught in several other cases at various stages of abuse. I remember when Brother J.R.Brown did an interview and kept focusing on false accusations, accidents, and "lesser" areas of child sexual abuse, such as an 18 year old committing fornication a 16 year old. I didn't see the old 20-20 interview about CSA and still haven't. But I remember listening to J.R.Brown's comments and immediately thinking that he must know that this is a common way to shift attention away from the serious crimes of CSA, which often includes rape/violence. I believe now that the WTS had already paid out millions of dollars even back then, but this is not something that Brother Brown could admit. He made it seem like we didn't really have a problem. I think this kind of hiding, or keeping people in the dark on a matter, could have been very dangerous in that the problem was not dealt with openly. Hinting that matters of "sexual abuse" are associated with apostate lies is another way to keep people in the dark. (Granted that Lett's quote was technically accurate, but it served the same purpose because he was not willing to admit the extent of the problem.) Brother Jackson at least admitted that these cases of real CSA were not associated with apostate lies. He admitted that it is a real problem in our community, just as it is in the world at large. That was an excellent "change" in the way we began to address the issue. I think it has led to the current shift away from trying to save the reputation of the organization, and make sure that the blame goes to the perpetrator. Again, I think that even when a person comes to the elders with a case they would like spiritual guidance on, but don't wish to have the case go to the police or other authorities, I think that a desire for privacy should not always be a valid concern. Many types of CSA rise to the level of overriding the legal requirements. Abusers repeatedly are caught repeating the crime with another person. I think there should be times when the elders tell a parent: "We understand that you want to avoid publicity, embarrassment, and reproach that this would bring on your family and the organization. This family head and 'breadwinner' may even lose his job and no longer be able to easily care for the rest of his family financially. And you may even have the law on your side when it comes to keeping such a terrible thing hidden. But, as for us, we must do all we can to protect the innocent, not the guilty. It is our Christian obligation to protect the innocent, look after orphans and widows in their tribulation, and therefore if necessary, to err on the side of mercy and love for the innocent. If we must make a judgment, we should err on the side of those who are often trampled by the world's justice: the children. It's what we are willing to do for the "least of these" that is deemed as if doing the same for Christ himself. (Proverbs 11:21) . . .Be assured of this: An evil person will not go unpunished, But the children of the righteous will escape. (Isaiah 10:1, 2) . . .Woe to those who enact harmful regulations, Who constantly draft oppressive decrees, 2 To deny the legal claim of the poor, To deprive the lowly among my people of justice, Making widows their spoil And fatherless children their plunder! (Matthew 7:11) 11 Therefore, if you, although being wicked, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more so will your Father who is in the heavens give good things to those asking him! (Matthew 18:2-5) . . .So calling a young child to him, he stood him in their midst 3 and said: “Truly I say to you, unless you turn around and become as young children, you will by no means enter into the Kingdom of the heavens. 4 Therefore, whoever will humble himself like this young child is the one who is the greatest in the Kingdom of the heavens; 5 and whoever receives one such young child on the basis of my name receives me also.

WITH RESPECT TO 'GOING BEYOND THE LAW' (Matthew 5:40-42) 40 And if a person wants to take you to court and get possession of your inner garment, let him also have your outer garment; 41 and if someone in authority compels you into service for a mile, go with him two miles. 42 Give to the one asking you, and do not turn away from one who wants to borrow from you. I sometimes think of this scripture when it seems that the courts want us to 'air our dirty linen' (our inner garment) by asking for information we have tried to keep secret.

I agree on your points with JTR. However, I think several of us would like to know what you are saying on the overlapping generation question. It might be a whole different way than most of us are already looking at it. So I'd love an answer to those questions previously posed: Thanks.

https://www.imdb.com/list/ls075124314/ imdb gives only one actor born before October 1914. Although I don't understand how or why this might have made a difference to your point. (And by the way, the database isn't up to date, evidently, as that one person evidently died in 2009 per Wikipedia: "Noriko died in April 2009 at the age of 97.") Oldest Living Actors by glyntreharne-1 | created - 07 Sep 2014 | updated - 3 months ago | Public The oldest living actor/actresses still alive in 2019 [NO PICTURE] 1. Noriko Honma Actress | Rashômon Noriko Honma was born on November 29, 1910 in Yubari, Hokkaido, Japan. She is an actress and manager, known for Rashomon (1950), Yojimbo (1961) and Seven Samurai (1954). Born: 8 November 1914 2. Norman Lloyd Actor | Dead Poets Society Norman Lloyd was born Norman Perlmutter in Jersey City, New Jersey, to Sadie (Horowitz), a housewife and singer, and Max Perlmutter, a furniture store manager. His family was Jewish (from Hungary and Russia). He began his acting career in the theater, first "treading the boards" at Eva Le Gallienne... Born: 8 November 1914 3. Olivia de Havilland Actress | The Heiress Olivia Mary de Havilland was born July 1, 1916, in Tokyo, Japan, to British parents Lilian Augusta (Ruse), a former actress, and Walter Augustus de Havilland, an English professor and patent attorney. Her sister, Joan, later to become famous as Joan Fontaine, was born the following year. Her ...

Now I'm glad I did, because you bring up an interesting point that I might have missed . . . Are you saying that those in the second group who would have potentially overlapped with those in the first group should be born (or anointed) before 1933? If so, I can see some of the reasons you might say this. But I'd really like to know if that's what you believe. I guess the best way to ask is to see if you can answer either or both of the following question(s) with a yes or no: Do you think persons in the second group of the "generation that will not pass away" must be born before 1933 (or perhaps up to 1935)? Do you think persons in the second group of the "generation that will not pass away" must be able to realize their own anointing before 1933 (or perhaps up to 1935)? PBS?

Stipulating 1965 (apparently) can be helpful. No problem. My skepticism was already well founded and satisfied. But it doesn't mean the story is untrue. Unique and unlikely things have happened to all of us at some time or another. This is what makes the world interesting. In a similar vein, then, changing the subject to "soldiers of Christ," a person could have been born in 1903, anointed at age 11 before October 1914, then living to be 116, might therefore not die until October 2019. That's this year!! If another 11-year-old person, somewhere in the world, becomes anointed before October 1919, and he or she lives to be 116, that means that the "generation which will not pass away" could potentially pass away in 2124. I think, therefore, we can safely say that this generation will finally pass away just over 100 years from now, if not before. Right?

If you would like to understand my skepticism, it should be very simple to understand. But remember, this has nothing to do with you. Remember we are not talking about persons who are only 95 or even 105 (my grandmother-in-law turns 105 this year). If you look at a list of super-centarians you might begin to see the problem https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_the_verified_oldest_people Between 1957 and 1965, this 116 year old could easily have been the ONLY 116 year old on the face of the entire earth. And even if there was one 116 year old alive, the odds that he was alive in Texas (or somewhere in the United States) and had been in the Civil War makes it even more unlikely. The reason for saying that is that war veterans are often tracked specifically to watch for stories like this. They get published every "Memorial Day." They get veterans benefits. They get a lot of media attention. In fact, there was a lot of evidence that the oldest Civil War veteran died at the age of 109. There were a couple of people (Walter WIlliams and WIlliam Lundy) who made claims of being older and also in the Civil War, but these two turned out to be likely "hoaxes." One of them was the Houston, Texas man, Walter Williams, who was the one in a list of "hoaxers" claiming to have been 116: http://time.com/3877537/civil-war-veterans-hoaxers-photos/ A further explanation for skepticism is the entire article at https://mashable.com/2015/04/10/civil-war-oldest-veterans/ Ancestry.com and newspapers.com were not available to some of the reporters and journalists who did their best to verify such stories when it was so common for people to claim whatever they wanted about having been in the Civil War. Now you can check multiple records and see what matches up in a matter of seconds. The mashable article points out the following about the two men in question: There is some debate as to the validity of both Walter Williams' and William Lundy's claims. Walter Williams claimed in 1959 to be the last Civil War veteran alive. Williams said he was 116, but census data discovered more recently suggests that he may have been eleven when the war ended in 1865. William Lundy was born at a similar time, and died in 1957. The story still becomes possible if he forged papers to join at age 10 or 11, and there is some evidence that a small percentage of boys actually tried this. And you might have been born in 1952 or 1954, which makes it quite possible that you met one of these two men.

Sorry about that. I read almost everything with healthy skepticism, especially stories that include a 116-year-old man. But the story was not impossible, and therefore it would be an amazing story that I hoped you say more about. Your story also had a 5 year old asking a 116 year old man about an obscure parade from about 45 years earlier that the boy would not likely have known about unless someone else brought it up first. You explained how that happened, and it now makes much more sense. To be totally honest, I still have a problem with the story, but it's not about you. It's about the man claiming to be 116.