JW Insider

As was already mentioned by others, the book A&W has a Foreword that might seem a bit confusing. The Foreword contains the following apparent strain of "logic:" "Truth is stranger than fiction". . . . There was a time when all angels were good. The time came when many of them allied themselves with Satan and became evil, hence called "fallen angels." Woman possesses finer sensibilities than man. She is more susceptible to seductive influences. Satan and his allies have taken advantage of this fact in overreaching woman . . . . Evil angels and bad women have made countless millions mourn. The Bible story of fallen angels or evil spirits is briefly told as follows: . . . God had permitted the angels, prior to the flood, to have supervision of the peoples of earth. (Hebrews 2 :3.) These angels had power to materialize in human form and mingle amongst the human race. Satan seduced many of these angels and caused them to become wicked or fallen ones. They in tum debauched the women descendants of Adam. The materialized angels, called "'sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose." (Genesis 6 :2.) A mongrel race resulted from these fallen angels with the offspring of Adam. . . . The fallen angels or evil spirits were not destroyed in the flood, but imprisoned in the darkness of the atmosphere near the earth. . . . Since the flood these evil angels have had no power to materialize, yet they have had the power and exercised it, of communicating with human beings through willing dupes known as spirit mediums. Thus have been deceived hundreds of thousands of honest people into believing that their dead friends are alive and that the living can talk with the dead. All students, familiar with the Bible teaching concerning spiritism, will read this book with the keenest interest because it shows the method employed by Satan and the wicked angels to debauch and overthrow the human race. The reviser of this book is of the opinion that the original manuscript was dictated to the woman who wrote it by one of the fallen angels who desired to return to divine favor. It is believed that reverential persons now examining the revised edition of this book will have a better understanding of the evil influence about us and be better fortified in the Lord's word and grace to shield and protect themselves from these evil influences. Spiritism, otherwise named demonism, is working great evil amongst men. It should be studiously avoided. To be forewarned is to be forearmed. Hence this publication. Let's break that down a little more simply: Woman . . . is more susceptible to seductive influences [of fallen angels]. Satan and his allies have taken advantage of this fact in overreaching woman . . . . Since the flood these evil angels have had no power to materialize, yet they have had the power and exercised it, of communicating with human beings through willing dupes known as spirit mediums. . . . . The reviser of this book is of the opinion that the original manuscript was dictated to the woman who wrote it by one of the fallen angels who desired to return to divine favor. . . . Spiritism, otherwise named demonism, is working great evil amongst men. It should be studiously avoided. To be forewarned is to be forearmed. Hence this publication. Was this strain of logic part of the reason that the book is called "Angels and Women"? Was it implied that the author, a woman, might have been more susceptible to the dictation of a book from a fallen angel? Or was it that the woman author had a book dictated to her by a fallen angel and never noticed that this is what was happening? The person promoting the book through the Watch Tower Society's publication "Golden Age" had said that "even demons sometimes tell the truth." But how did they know that this particular fallen angel was always telling the truth? And if he was always telling the truth, why did the book have to be revised in literally HUNDREDS of places. Why is it that the book didn't know about the version of the doctrine Russell had accepted about the earth's "water canopy"? Why did it have to be revised to remove the race of black dwarfs? It's almost always possible to figure out the reasons for the updates in terms of special doctrines that Russell believed in, that the author had accidentally contradicted by not being aware of Russell's doctrines. It's important to notice, I think, that the reasoning about being dictated by a fallen angel is circular, and proven even more so by later statements. The author of the book never claims or hints that the book was dictated by a fallen angel. Why did the promoters of A&W think it was dictated this way? Because they believed that angels could communicate this way, and that the book had many things correct from their own point of view, which must therefore have come from a fallen angel. The fallen angel was just another character that the author had created in her book. People have written novels where Judas is a more fully developed character whom we are supposed to sympathize with. Gnostics wrote books 2,100 years ago that created sympathy for the Devil and made Jehovah look like the bad guy (the arbitrary trickster). It's common to create an unlikely hero in modern books and movies, so that we are meant to root for a mobster or an assassin. The original author here only did what many authors do in order to make a story compelling and interesting. I think we can easily assume that the "dictation" part was simply made up out of whole cloth by the promoters of the revised version. But the revisions make me wonder if even they believed it was true. There are really a lot of problems with this Foreword. I skipped the part where it says that: A number of years ago Mrs. J. G. Smith published a novel entitled Seola. She claims to have been impelled to write it after listening to beautiful music. She made no pretense of a knowledge of the Bible. Yet many of her sayings are so thoroughly in accord with the correct understanding of certain scriptures that the novel is exceedingly interesting and sometimes thrilling. Parts of this have already been commented upon. "She claims to have been impelled to write it after listening to beautiful music." This is not a claim about anything more than any common writer might claim. Some authors use silence, others use jazz or classical music. The word "impelled" is thrown in just to sound a bit more mysterious. "She made no pretense of a knowledge of the Bible." This, too, was just made up as a way to make it more mysterious sounding. It's like saying that some anonymous Bible translators made no pretense of having any knowledge of the Biblical languages, and that this must prove that the translation is superior in some mysterious way. The author may have done a lot of homework on the Biblical subject and obviously used a lot of imagination too. But the main thing to notice is that no one says that the author claimed NOT to have a lot of knowledge of the Bible accounts. This is quite different than merely noting that the author never bragged about her knowledge. So there is nothing "exceedingly interesting" or "sometimes thrilling" unless the promoters actually believed they were reading "secret knowledge" or "new light" that they thought was coming from a true source. The Foreword next contains the words: The greatest Bible scholar of modem times read this book shortly before his death. To a close personal friend he said: "This book, if revised according to the facts we now know concerning spiritism, would he instructive and helpful." This does not say that Russell ever thought the book was dictated. If he had, this would have been an important point to the promoters. Instead, it only says that it was the opinion of the "reviser." But calling the unnamed "Russell" the greatest Bible scholar of modern times is probably at least partially intended to compare the complete lack of Bible knowledge imputed to the woman author. Also, Russell apparently discovered or at least finally read the book as late as 1916 or shortly before. This would explain the 1924 publishing date of the revision. I read somewhere where a Bible Student thought he read it back in 1878 but that was probably a misunderstanding about whether Russell was a friend of the original author. (Another Bible Student does not think Russell ever had anything to do with the book.) But it should also be noticed that the book was supposed to be revised "according to the facts we now know about spiritism." This does not seem to have anyhing to do with the actual revisions, which were apparently only made to avoid distracting from OTHER Watch Tower teachings. None of the revisions had anything to do with an undestanding of spiritism. And as said above, any changes to the "dictation" would only indicate that they never really believed it was dictated by a completely honest fallen angel anyway. After looking at a lot of the revisions, I think I can guess what was behind them and behind the whole idea of the "dictation" angle. But I've said enough on this part of the topic.

These are all good questions. I don't know the answer. We know which ones Peter was speaking about because he told us. But these are still good questions. I don't think I have anything to add at the moment on that subject though because I always give the Watch Tower publications the benefit of the doubt unless the ideas create a difficulty harmonizing with the scriptures or a contradiction with other scriptures on the same subject.

I'm not sure why you are still so concerned about this part of the discussion. I don't know if you ever noticed that I still have never accused Russell of universalism. All I said was: Russell apparently came pretty close to believing in "universal salvation" and this would include a number of fallen angels according to his thinking. He seemed sure that Adam, although perfect, would be resurrected to an opportunity to eternal life I'd be happy to change the words "pretty close" to "Russell apparently came a little closer than most of us realize to believing in universal salvation, even though he was still not a true and complete believer in universal salvation." By this I mean that some of us would probably be surprised that Russell ever made statements claiming that fallen angels might be redeemed, or even that Adam himself would be brought back to life on earth. I do think these ideas are related to the ideas of "universal salvation.' Perhaps you think there is no relationship. That's OK too. I just thought that the point should be made. I appreciate that you would have used different words to make the point. Of course, you might not agree with the point, and that's OK, too. Remember that just about everything said here is just an opinion. The point I'm trying to figure out is how and why a book of fiction was able to confirm Bible history. Could Mark Twain have written a really good story about lepers in Jesus' day that somehow confirmed that the Bible was right about Jesus curing lepers? If Russell or Brenneisen or Woodworth or someone else had read Mark Twain's book and promoted it, would that have somehow meant that it had confrmed the Bible's accounts? Why would I do that? I still don't believe it's even likely that Russell accepted spiritism in any form. I don't believe he realized that the influence from pyramidologist became a form of divination. I'm not even sure that Russell thought this book was dictated by a fallen angel. I certainly never thought it was, no matter what the Watch Tower publications claimed about it in 1924. Not sure where or why you would get that either. I think that authors often come up with interesting angles most of us would never think of, and a lot of these ideas could make the Bible accounts make more sense. These extra-Biblical authors aren't necessarily right, but their speculations might just allow us to see something in the original account we hadn't seen before. But no extra-Biblical speculations -- yours, mine, or even some brilliant author's -- should be given special "credence" just because we think they got their information from some spirit or some claimed source of inspiration. You can go on all you want about Russell rejecting Universalism. It has nothing to do with my point, which is based on what Russell claimed to believe, not the label you are arguing about. I've known for 40 years that Russell rejected Universalism several times. This is why I never claimed that he accepted Universalism. My point was about how he had accepeted something pretty close to universalism, in my opinion. At least your statement above shows that you are aware that this has nothing to do with present JW understanding. No. That's still false. My argument was that Russell made clear statements that he thought fallen angels could repent and get back into Jehovah's favor. My secondary, supporting argument was Russell also made clear statements that Adam would be brought back to life on earth for an opportunity for everlasting life. Labels we might or might not put on such types of argumentation are still irrelevant.

You are right. It's a fascinating question. I can't say that you are wrong, but the Watch Tower publications now say that his reason for preaching was not "good news" but a proclamation of his victory which would be about the same as an announcement of their impending adverse judgment. *** it-2 p. 674 Preacher, Preaching *** What was the objective of Jesus’ preaching “to the spirits in prison”? At 1 Peter 3:19, 20, after describing Jesus’ resurrection to spirit life, the apostle says: “In this state also he went his way and preached to the spirits in prison, who had once been disobedient when the patience of God was waiting in Noah’s days, while the ark was being constructed.” Commenting on this text, Vine’s Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words says: “In I Pet. 3:19 the probable reference is, not to glad tidings (which there is no real evidence that Noah preached, nor is there evidence that the spirits of antediluvian people are actually ‘in prison’), but to the act of Christ after His resurrection in proclaiming His victory to fallen angelic spirits.” (1981, Vol. 3, p. 201) As has been noted, ke·rysʹso refers to a proclamation that may be not only of something good but also of something bad, as when Jonah proclaimed Nineveh’s coming destruction. The only imprisoned spirits referred to in the Scriptures are those angels of Noah’s day who were ‘delivered into pits of dense darkness’ (2Pe 2:4, 5) and “reserved with eternal bonds under dense darkness for the judgment of the great day.” (Jude 6) Therefore the preaching by the resurrected Jesus to such unrighteous angels could only have been a preaching of judgment. It may be noted that the book of Revelation transmitted in vision to John by Christ Jesus toward the close of the first century C.E. contains much about Satan the Devil and his demons as well as their ultimate destruction, hence, a preaching of judgment. (Re 12-20) Peter’s use of the past tense (“preached”) indicates that such preaching had been done prior to the writing of his first letter. I don't see anything specifically problematic about the current explanation, but as I said I can't say that you're wrong either.

This is the final part of the discussion of the December 3, 1924 advertisement for the "Angels and Women" book where the Golden Age responds to the two letters: One letter showed concerns about the spiritistic origin of the book and one whole-heartedly endorsed it. The reply is shown in full: Angels and Women . . . Reply TO BOTH above letters we reply as follows: When Pastor Russell was here, he read a book dealing with conditions that obtained prior to the flood. He requested some other brethren to read it. It was so much in harmony with the Bible account of the fallen angels that he regarded the book as remarkable. Under his supervision it was revised, and later published by one who was formerly his confidential associate. The new book is published under the title "Angels and Women". Scriptural citations are given. An appendix is added. Pastor Russell remarked that at some opportune time the book, revised, should be published. As to its being a violation of the Vow to read this book, such an idea is not worthy of consideration. It would be no more wrong to read it than to read "What Say the Scriptures about Spiritism" or "Talking With the Dead"; for both these books quote much as to what the evil spirits do. Many have derived much benefit from reading "Angels and Women" because it aids in getting a clearer vision of how Satan overreached the angels and overreached the human race, and caused all the havoc amongst men and angels. It helps one to a better understanding of the devil's organization. The book is published by the A. B. Abac Company, Madison Square, P.O. Box 101, New York City, N. Y. THE GOLDEN AGE does not handle this publication; but all who desire it should write directly to the publisher at the above address. As expected by the order and content of the letters, the Society was going to repeat its current stance and offer a small (dismissive) defense to take care of the slight objection. We do apparently learn that it was revised under Russell's supervision, but Woodworth (the Golden Age) editor has also claimed that Russell was supervising every aspect of the work since 1916 from beyond the grave (beyond the vail/veil). So we don't really know if Brenisen (Brenneisen) started work on this before 1916 or not. (Later we'll see a reason to believe that Woodworth is referring to Russell supervising the revision after he died: 1916 through 1924.) The connection to "The Vow" would seem to be obvious. But note that the answer is that this book is no more wrong than to read books by the "faithful and discreet slave" on the subject of spiritism. Perhaps it was the added appendix with scriptural citations that made this rationalization possible. The book is claimed to have provided "new light" in that it gives a better understanding of the Devil's organization, and gives a clearer vision of "how" Satan overreached the angels and humans. The street address is not given, just a post office number. This is thought to be Brenisen's publishing company.

In the timeline, the initial announcement and promotion in July 1924, was covered, and now have begun to discuss the response to the book starting in the December 3, 1924 issue of Golden Age. Next is the positive response. (Again don't miss the signs of marketing within the letter itself.) Angels and Women . . . TO THE GOLDEN AGE: With much pleasure and profit has the book, "Angels and Women" been read by Truth friends. It contains much to encourage one to loyalty and faith in God. Do you think that it would be a real service to purchase these books in quantities of ten or more copies at a time so as to get the special $1 per copy rate that you have so kindly secured for us, and thus to have them on hand as Christmas and birthday presents or for other gift occasions to give to our relatives and friends, whom we have been unable to otherwise interest in Present Truth or only slightly so? Would not some be disposed to read a fascinating novel of this kind, who might not be able to get first interested in "The Harp" or STUDIES? Would this not be considered one way of instructing the people about matters concerning which there is so much ignorance, and direct them to the real Bible keys, the WATCH TOWER publications? Should we send such orders to THE GOLDEN AGE? If not, will you kindly give us the complete address of the A. B. Abac Company? There are many who would like to get a little more information regarding these items. An Appreciative Reader The first sentence by one appreciative reader somehow speaks for how much pleasure and profit this book has provided to "Truth friends." It's about loyalty and faith in God. But notice that the second paragraph, highlighted in red above, looks completely like a common marketing ploy. It's merely a rewording and reminder of the original advertisement. And a new reminder that this would make a great Christmas gift, just in time. It's partly rhetorical in that there is no such thing as No for an answer. It's just like those radio ads or cheap TV ads where two persons converse: Mary: Can you give me some advice John? I have Problem X (x=hair loss, loose gums, 12 toes, etc) John: You are in luck, Mary. There is a wonderful new product that takes care of "Problem X" -- perfect for you! Mary: That's great, and I also love the fact that it's on sale now at my favorite pharmacy for buy 2 get one free! [Fake knowledge that Mary didn't really have, but the ad writers thought sounded better from her.] John: Right you are, Mary! And the sale runs from now until Christmas!!! [jingle, ka-ching! jingle, ka-ching! . . . repeat until fade-out] And of course this new Golden Age advertisement in the guise of a letter is setting up the idea that this is a great witnessing tool as a stepping stone (or "gateway" book) to get them to buy real WATCH TOWER publications. Again this "one" appreciative reader speaks for the many who would like to get more information regarding these items, apparently knowing all along that such orders will actually need to go to the A. B. Abac Company. In my next post I'll cover the response to these letters in the same issue of the Golden Age.

I still think the timeline is informative in helping us decide just why this book was promoted in this fashion by the Watch Tower Society. We discussed the initial announcment in the The Golden Age, July 30, 1924 p. 702. For some reason this announcement said nothing about what made the book so important or just how it could help them ward off spiritism. This was the second major book that Woodworth promoted, and both of them tried to play off their close association with Charles T Russell for sales. (Finished Mystery and Angels & Women). But the actual author of the book Seola was never mentioned. Neither was the reviser named, only that it was a close friend of Russell revising a book that Russell had recommended to his friends. According to Brother Herd, Russell endorsed the book and had written the foreward in the book. Russell did NOT write the foreword in the book, and we only learn second or third hand that Russell had endorsed the book. We know of nothing of the book from Russell himself, or even from Russell's lifetime. In promoting the book through Watch Tower publications, they never mentioned that the original author was a woman, or that they believed she was acting as a spirit medium. Imagine how surprised you would be if you ordered 2 cartons of these books so that everyone in your congregation (a.k.a., "company") could get this new wonderful information about avoiding spiritism. You open up the book and are anxious to get a glimpse of just how "the faithful and discreet slave" had, in effect, posthumously (again!) provided spiritual food to the household of faith. (Russell was still the "faithful and discreet slave" at this point. Woodworth had proposed a new explanation of a parable that would have made Rutherford the fulfillment of a "steward" from a different parable, but it didn't really "stick" yet.) So you open up the book "Angels and Women" and you anxiously read the foreword: "dictated to the woman who wrote by one of the fallen angels who desired to return to divine favor" -- Angels and Women, page 5. In other words, it was dictated by a demon, and endorsed just because the Society held the view that some of the demons were honest and wanted to repent. You'd probably be thinking, "It's no wonder they left this part out of the advertisement." And that's no doubt what must have happened. They got letters. The Watch Tower publications didn't mention it again until December 3, 1924, after as much as 6 months of sales. In the December 3, 1924 Golden Age they went ahead and printed just one letter of concern, and one enthusiastic letter of support, and then defended their continued endorsement of the book. Note how the concerns are cleverly downplayed: Angels and Women WE PRESENT some letters regarding this book (a review of which recently appeared in our columns) which we feel sure will be of interest to our readers: TO THE GOLDEN AGE: Pardon me for taking this much of your time on what may be so simple a matter; but I was approached about going into a club to get a certain book called, "Angels and Women". I made some inquiries, and was told that it was a book that a fallen angel dictated to a women, showing a desire to come back into harmony with God; and that Pastor Russell approved of the book. I had never heard of the book before; and as we are to shun anything akin to spiritism I should like to know positively whether the book has your approval before buying one; so if it is not asking to much would like a reply. (Mrs.) W. S. Davis, Los Angeles, Cal. Notice how she (Davis) is not complaining about buying the book under false pretenses, only that she has somehow learned "that it was a book that a fallen angel dictated to a woman" and that this doesn't sound like the right way to shun spiritism. So she'll still buy the book as long as they can assure her that it really had the approval of Pastor Russell and whether it really has the current approval of The Golden Age, in spite of these facts. Then, of course, they follow this up with a glowing, enthusiastic letter of appreciation. Anyone who has worked in marketing (I have) knows exactly why it had to be done this way. It's always a matter of handling objections in such a way that you can still produce an action on the part of the buyer. It says: "You might have heard that this book is not really a book that helps you avoid spiritism, but that it's actually a book that is the product of spiritism. Perhaps this had made you wary about buying the book. Well guess what? You can rest assured that Pastor Russell himself really did endorse this book and the Watch Tower Society still endorses this book. So what are you waiting for? Have no fear! Buy this book today!" I'll get to the positive letter in the next post.

That's a good and thoughtful question in my opinion. You are right; it's not much different at all. It's easy to make a mistake in looking back over thousands of pages of material that is not all 100% consistent. Even though I never said that Russell was a universalist, it's good that you pointed out this might have been easily misunderstood. This is also correct. Just because Russell was very interested in the Adventist chronology among other ideas, did NOT make him Adventist. This is why I would also not call him an Adventists, even if several of his beliefs were much closer to Adventism than most other religions of his time. It's probably an important factor to see what he actually said he believed without so much concern over whether he felt it put him under a certain label or category. It's also possible to "protest too much" that a person does (or does not) belong in a certain category.

By the way, even though the long article you quoted called "Not Ashamed of the Gospel" supports what I was saying about Russell's view, we should be careful about the way in which we might inadvertently claim that early Zion's Watch Tower articles are supposed to exactly represent Russell's thinking at the time. This was from an early May 1881 Watch Tower, and the J.C.S. initials at the end of that article indicates that it was contributed by J. C. Sunderlin who said quite a few things that Russell himself never said. (Calling William Miller, "Father" Miller, for example.)

There were just so many relevant quotes that I didn't take the time to type out the full month and year, just the page number with the F or R next to it. The F is a reference to the New Creation book, Volume 6 of Studies in the Scriptures. Those other references with just an R next to the number are the Watch Tower Reprint page numbers, which is, of course, the quickest way to refer to the entire set of Zion's Watch Tower and Watch Tower issues from 1879 to 1916. If you need to match them to a month and year, just go to http://www.htdbv8.com/ (Harvest Truth Data Base) and sort "Original Towers" by Ascending Chronological Order. All you have to do is recall a couple of unique words from the original article and it will likely show up on Google on one of the several Russell publication sites. I prefer agsconsulting.com to pick them up from. So ultimately the information is coming from Google searches. If you are talking about some of the references to our beliefs about Armageddon from the 1940's through the 1970's (99.9% etc, these were recently discussed elsewhere on the forum.)

He did. I found a copy. Attached below. Try from about the 6 minute mark through the 9 minute mark. Also note this picture from Rutherford's book Religion (1940) p.16. Notice the plumes on the head of the giant on the left? This came from Seola: "Mounted upon the back of each huge beast was a black dwarf robed in scarlet and holding a guiding wand in his hand. In front and rear were seen a band of gigantic men, clad also in scarlet, with black plumes upon their heads, and marshalled in battle array. These I knew must be the terrible beings of whom my father had spoken, Darvands, the offspring of angels and women..." (Seola - 1878, Page 63,4). The original Seola had two additional races joining humankind, giants and black dwarfs as slaves (because the author was a little bit racist). A&W got rid of the black slaves, and also got rid of all references to storms, clouds, and rain prior to the Flood, even references to clear skies, and changed them all to references about the hard-to-see-through firmament or "water canopy." Other references to the giants in Seola describe them with headbands (as shown here and still shown in recent publications) and with leaves (shown here) and with talismans (perhaps shown here as what appears to be a rock in the hand). Samuel Herd Talk referencing Angels and Women.mp3

A foghorn creates a sound that cuts through the fog. So if you meant that as a compliment, thanks. But that wasn't my intent because I was merely stating something based on Russell's own words. I realize that he distinguished himself from pure "universal salvation" believers. My point was that, if we don't dismiss Russell's own words, we can see that he was much closer to a universal salvation believer than we are (as JWs) and therefore, we shouldn't be surprised that Russell may have expected many demons to repent, even though they were perfect and we tend to view loss of perfection as rebellion. After all, he expected most of humankind to live on the earth, and most Christians (of all varieties) to go to heaven. Many of us grew up with the very different ideas about salvation that Rutherford started to push and which Fred Franz promoted with numbers attached. Franz gave talks and wrote articles assuring us that BILLIONS would be destroyed forever at Armageddon, even putting the percentage of those who would be slaughtered at 99.9% on the side of Satan. Because of this we might not easily understand that Russell, while not a Universalist, tended to agree with them to an extent quite different from most other Christian religions of his time. When Russell wrote an article on Universal Salvation he made points that would seem agreeable to many of them: [R 1436,7,8] UNIVERSAL SALVATION. "We trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those that believe."--1 Tim. 4:10. It is very generally conceded among Christians that Universalists are the only class of people who have any claim upon, or use for, this text of Scripture; but although we are not Universalists, we also, with Paul, trust in the living God [Jehovah], who is the Savior of all men, especially of those that believe. Thus the Apostle declares that in one sense the salvation which God has promised is to be universal, while in another sense it is to be restricted to believers. . . . But, while thus the Savior of all, there is a particular or special sense in which God is the Savior of those that believe and accept this reconciliation and the opportunity offered of making it everlasting salvation. This salvation is conditional: "Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved." (Acts 16:31.) This is an unequivocal promise of actual and permanent salvation to every individual who believes, i.e., heartily accepts. To such an one, God not only stands in the attitude of a savior, ready and willing to save, but he will go farther and actually accomplish his salvation; and this is the special sense in which he is the Savior of them that believe. . . . Others, while claiming that God is willing and ready to save all, practically deny it by claiming that the necessary believing must be done in the present life-- which practically excludes three-fourths of the race from any opportunity of sharing in it, since more than that proportion have died without any knowledge of the only name given under heaven or among men, whereby we must be saved. This view contradicts God's Word; because for even one member of the human race to be left unprovided for--to be left without the needful information and opportunity-- would render false the statement which God makes, that he stands as a Savior to all men. The entire matter is clear, however, when viewed from the standpoint of the Plan of the Ages-- which shows that through the redemptive work of Christ God has provided salvation for all from all that "was lost" in Adam; and that the knowledge necessary to the acceptance of this provided gift, while it has reached only the few in the present life, is to be testified to all in due time--in the coming age, in which Christ and his Church shall reign over and bless, with his gracious offer, all the families of the earth. We should keep in mind that Russell (and Rutherford for many years) also had quite a different view of Armageddon than that which developed over time in the Watch Tower publications. Today, many Witnesses fret over what will happen with Hindus and Buddhists, for example, many still thinking that Jehovah must destroy any and all (plus their kids!) who had some opportunity to hear the good news as preached by us, because any who had a good heart condition would surely have rushed over to our side. How else can horses be practically swimming in blood? Relative to the beliefs we held in the 1940's through the 1970's, Russell was more of a believer in universal salvation.

I notice that none of those quotes you gave indicate that Adam will NOT be resurrected. Most of the time, this idea about Adam being resurrected or at least ransomed and redeemed was "buried" in the expression "Adam and his race" which I will show below. But first there is a very clear expression of it here: We should not forget that Adam and Eve in some respects foreshadowed Christ and the Church. Jesus personally is the great Savior of mankind, whose death constitutes the Ransom-price for the sins of Adam and the entire race. He is to be the Great Life-Giver, or Father of mankind. During His Millennial Reign He will give back earthly life to Adam and as many of his race as will receive it -- Watch Tower, December 1912, p.373 R.5141 There are others just as explicit as that one, but most of the time, the reason the point is missed is because of the more complex expressions mentioned above, which I will highlight in some of these below: Under the divine arrangement the redemption of Adam from condemnation of death will ultimately affect all of his race, to the extent of releasing them from the sentence of death, and to the further extent of furnishing them the light, the knowledge and the opportunity of coming into Christ; but it will be only those who will avail themselves of this privilege, and come into Christ, that will be made alive, in the full, proper sense of that word--lifted up out of death completely. (F698 New Creation) Thus, too, Adam was not given an uncounted experience with sin, but for his first transgression was sentenced so completely that nothing short of a ransom could release him from his sin and its penalty, death. R1261 He who redeemed or purchased back Adam and his race from the sentence of death R1261 No subject occupies a more important place in God's Word than the resurrection, except those two other doctrines so closely identified with it--the ransom, which is the basis of all hope in a resurrection, and the second coming of the Lord to establish his kingdom, under which the fruit of the ransom (resurrection) shall be extended to Adam and his race in general. R1258 The death which Jesus experienced was exactly the same kind as the one which destroyed Adam-- the soul of Jesus died, as the ransom price for the soul of Adam (including Adam's posterity). R4994 it was necessary for Jesus to become "the second Adam" as a perfect man that as the Second Adam he might give his life a ransom-price for the first Adam, thus redeeming him and incidentally all of his posterity. R4556 There is, however, no sentient being in the sense of consciousness, or knowledge, or appreciation of pain or joy, or of any other experience, but the Divine Creator who first gave being has declared that in the case of Adam and his children it is his purpose to provide a Redeemer through whom all may be restored as completely as before they came under the death sentence. R4657 Could be 100 more, but I think this should suffice for now. Even though Russell was not always consistent with himself, I have never seen a quote from him that could clearly mean the opposite.

And, let's not forget. . . . . [do not scroll down if you are squeamish] . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

Let's offer a wider selection of favorites:

I think these first two points got covered. It's interesting that we don't have much information on just what it was that appealed to Russell. Russell apparently came pretty close to believing in "universal salvation" and this would include a number of fallen angels according to his thinking. He seemed sure that Adam, although perfect, would be resurrected to an opportunity to eternal life, although I don't recall if he was ever so sure of Eve's chances. I don't recall this being speculated about much lately, although most JWs will now say that Adam has little chance because he was perfect and was not deceived and therefore rebelled. There are some Bible Students who claim that this book was sent to Russell in 1878. But right from the start, evidently, Russell saw it as a book that might enlighten his followers about spiritism. If this is true, he could have accepted it as an "automatic writing" book, where the author acted as a spirit medium. At least that's what later Bible Students implied. Some Bible Students evidently say that Russell knew the author, although this could have happened after he read the book and he might have made contact at that point. (The author was the wife of the Governor of Vermont.) These first two points of the review, however, give no clue about those claims. Only that the book was in striking harmony with the Scriptural account in Genesis. So on to the third point. The book throws light on the subject of the devil and demons and the influence they exercised both before the flood and and now again in the time period of the books publication: 1878-1924 or thereabouts. Just how it throws light on their influence is not clearly spelled out. The book will also aid those who carefully consider it to avoid the bad effects of spiritism. If indeed the book came through a spirit medium, it's not clear exactly why Bible Students should buy this book to help them avoid the effects of spiritism. Does the book give us insight into the clever ways that the demons can influence us? Does it tell us something new? So on to the fourth point: For anyone who cares, the evidence points to a well-known Bible Student and long time personal friend of Russell named Ed W. Brenneisen, who lived in Dallas based on his letter to the Watchtower in 1900: MY DEAR BROTHER:--We cannot ever hope to have you and the other dear brethren (who assisted so graciously and unselfishly in making the gathering at this place on Sept. 29, 30, and Oct. 1 such a profitable one for our spiritual growth and upbuilding) fully understand this side the second vail what a deep spirit of gratitude and love fills our hearts for you. In every possible respect has the convention passed beyond our greatest hopes, and to whom but our very present Lord can we ascribe such unmistakeable direction in even the minutest detail? To him and the glorious Father be all the praise and glory, yet we forget not to thank him for the humble, loving instrument he has used of late years, so effectually to dispense and serve present truth to the balance of the household of faith. May the Lord continue to keep and richly bless you as that faithful servant. With much love, E. W. BRENNEISEN,--Dallas, Texas. In 1909, he was travelling as a convention speaker with Russell, MacMillan and others. The following is from the Nova Scotia convention. Other later (1915) convention reports show him also speaking with Van Ambergh, R.J.Martin, Menta Sturgeon and Rutherford. Russell was the sole editor of the Watch Tower while he was alive, but listed 5 persons in his Will who would be on an Editorial Committee. These five persons were: WILLIAM E. PAGE, WILLIAM E. VAN AMBURGH, HENRY CLAY ROCKWELL, E. W. BRENNEISEN, F. H. ROBISON [and if any of them were unable to fulfill they should choose the replacement from a secondary list of five alternate choices] A. E. Burgess, Robert Hirsh, Isaac Hoskins, Geo. H. Fisher (Scranton), J. F. Rutherford, Dr. John Edgar [whose names were never to be attached to any Watch Tower publications after Russell died]. I mention that last point from Russell's will because Brenneisen, being a close friend, might have been alert to the fact that Russell didn't want any of these brothers to attach their name to anything they wrote, which might explain some of the "secrecy" behind the A&W book. Of course, this became moot, because within a couple of days of Russell's death, Van Ambergh immediately sent a letter that started the process of getting members of the Editorial Committee to resign. Page and Brenneisen both responded with letters announcing their resignation in time for the December 1916 issue, just one month after Russell died. Van Ambergh put the condition that they must live at Bethel to be on the committee, which was evident Page's letter, too. Rutherford and Hirsh immediately replaced them on the Editorial Committee. I can't really tell what relationship he had with Rutherford, but I have only seen hints that it didn't start out well. On to point #5: I have documentation from the Society itself that printing the Finished Mystery was at a cost on the order of 20 cents, even though it was done by outside printers. This book, shorter and lighter, should have been about half that amount, or about 10 cents. I don't know how many were printed, but it must have been expected that this would be purchased by some in groups of 10 or more, meaning that there was an expectation that it would be redistributed in the same way that colporteurs and other book salesman were selling books in those days. Readers of the Golden Age were expected to see a great value in this book to order it in quantities of 10 or more. The profit per box would have been about $8.50 after shipping, but the profit per 10 sold separately would have been a lot more like $16.00 but would have been nearly 10 times the amount of work, and would probably require more marketing in the Golden Age. It seems like a dirty trick to tell readers of this Watch Tower publication that this A&W book provided a good way to guard yourself from spiritism without admitting the part about it being produced (they believed) through a method that the Watch Tower had defined as spiritism. I also find it odd that they would see the need to run an advertisement that ends with the words, this is not an advertisement.

I can't tell what this is about. Can you explain?

At first I thought this was the OTHER Easter Island:

(2 Corinthians 3:1-3) 3 Are we starting to recommend ourselves again? Or do we need, like some men, letters of recommendation to you or from you? 2 You yourselves are our letter, inscribed on our hearts and known and being read by all mankind. 3 For you are shown to be a letter of Christ written by us as ministers, inscribed not with ink but with the spirit of a living God, not on stone tablets but on fleshly tablets, on hearts.

Don't get the point you are making about the Patterson picture, unless it's that they have an even older version of the scrolls (pre-pre-2013) and the brother from Spain off to the left is in very poor light. This picture was still at Patterson last year on the tour route. I suspect it already got moved to Warwick. First thing I noticed when I saw this painting about 6 years ago is that the tall lamp makes a distinct shadow, but none of the apostles, etc., make any shadows. Reminds me of this picture:

I'm breaking up my last post into two posts after all, so that the E.R.A. machine information and suggestions about telepathy etc, do not get too mixed up with the rest of the discussion. I've also added a longer quote from Russell at the end where he speaks to the rise in spiritism and psychic phenomena. On page 79, 80 of his book on spiritism, Greber apparently touches upon the phenomenon that lies behind the E.R.A. machines that the Society once promoted: Od flows through all parts of terrestrial bodies and radiates beyond them to a certain distance. This radiation which surrounds terrestrial bodies has been called 'aura' by your scientists. Everything in creation has such an odic aura.... The odic aura surrounds the material body like a halo.... This force manifests itself by vibrations of the od.... All thought and volition are expressed in the corresponding odic vibrations, set in motion by the spirit, as the bearer of the od.... A sage of ancient times observed: 'Everything is in a state of flux'. He should have said: 'Everything is in a state of vibration'.... You will see at once that the harmony in odic vibrations stands for beauty, health, happiness, peace and good fortune, whereas discord in such vibrations must be the cause of ugliness, sickness, suffering and unhappiness. (Page 79,80) I didn't want to get back into the "Goodrich, Abrams, Woodworth, Hudgings, Rutherford" discussion of a previous thread, but the connection seems obvious. Dr. Abrams made it obvious by turning the discussion about the power of these Radio Vibration healing machines (and RDK: Radio Disease Killer machine) into one about mental telepathy that could work much farther away from the person being healed. Also, in spite of Woodworth's denials that this type of healing had anything to do with spiritism, it seems he inadvertently admitted that he knew just how close to the edge he was playing when he tried to negate some of the theories that Upton Sinclair had made in a book called "Mental Radio": Sinclair Mixing Up in Demonism UPTON SINCLAIR has written a book, Mental Radio, narrating the experiments of himself and his wife in telepathy. He says, in one place, "The subconscience answers questions, and its answers are always false.... the deep mind, answers questions too, and these answers come, not quietly, but as if by inspiration...." We merely add that the demons are teasing Mr. Sinclair. (Golden Age, January 20, 1932, p. 249.) In 1925 The Golden Age even published an article, quoting Brother (Dr.) Pottle showing how these ERA machines might explain palmistry, phrenology, physiognamy, chiromancy, etc: It also explains why the character of men can be described in terms of facial features, known as Physiognomy, or cranial characteristics with the scientific term of Phrenology, or even by the fingernails or by the palm, or by the spine, or by the feet. There are books published on each of these arts separately; and if we were only sufficiently intelligent we undoubtedly could determine what a person thinks or does chiefly, his qualifications, etc., merely from a piece of his skin, a hair, or a drop of blood. Abrams scientifically demonstrated this fact in many details, although experiments are as yet in their infancy. The body throughout tells our story of life; the vibrations show what we are, and do not lie. (Golden Age, February 25, 1925, p. 333.) I read somewhere else that the Golden Age claimed that it rarely ever reviewed a book unless they thought it was very important. And Upton Sinclair and Angels and Women were two that got formal reviews. Russell seemed to believe that mental telephathy was possible too, based on this quote from the Golden Age, February 25, 1925: ...thought is conducted by an electronic vibratory method. Dr. Abrams was the first to demonstrate that theory through a mechanical instrument. It also explains the hitherto mysteries of so-called mental telepathy, mind reading, and woman's intuition, of which Pastor Russell spoke upon several occasions. (p. 332) As to just how the prayers of one may benefit another we may not know. We have not sufficient information to philosophize on it very deeply. We might surmise certain mental influences proceeding from one to another, just as we know electrical influences to proceed from one station to another thousands of miles away. The powers of the mind are something not comprehended. We can influence ourselves, and, to a certain extent, influence another. One mind can influence another without a word, by some telepathic power. (Russell, source not found, sermon?) God created Father Adam the king of earth. Had he remained loyal to his God, he would have retained not only his life and health and happiness, but also his kingly authority over the beasts, the fish and the fowl--ruling them with telepathic powers. (Russell, Watch Tower, February 1915, p. 5636) I add the following from the August 1909 Watch Tower p.227 (4441) just to show the same point made in this thread that spiritism was gaining ground even among scientists and professors and persons of high station. I only kept the heading "Spritism Conquering Scientists" because it was apparently intended to be a bit provocative, but there were several other headings between other paragraphs that I left out, so it isn't that the entire article was focused on this one heading. Russell mentions Eddyism (Christian Science) and the Emmanuel movement about the use of "suggestion" as a help to patients. (Elsewhere Russell identified hypnotism with spiritism.) SPIRITISM CONQUERING SCIENTISTS . . . The Bible alone gives us the key to Spiritism's power, showing that it is by the fallen angels, demons, who personate the dead so as to deceive mankind and to favor various falsities and superstitions built upon the error that the dead are alive. The Bible also foretells that at this time the wise men of the world will be deceived. Note the evidence of this in the following item which is going the rounds of the press:-- "Mme. Blavatsky was exposed in India by a strenuous Australian investigator, Richard Hodgson, who afterward settled down in Boston, where he became head of the old American branch of the British Society for Psychical Research, and where also he met Professor James, who took him to see Mrs. Piper. Dr. Hodgson studied this woman for eighteen years and she convinced him that telepathy, automatic writing and communication with the dead were bona fide phenomena. To give her a special test, Dr. Hodgson arranged a unique course of experiments, in which he was aided by Dr. James H. Hyslop, professor of logic and ethics at Columbia. . . . "The professor masked himself and disguised his voice during his visits to her, and while she lay unconscious, with her head upon a pillow resting on a table, her hand wrote out messages alleged to come from his father. She converted Hyslop to the spiritistic hypothesis, and his announcement of the fact made a stir in the scientific world. He and Hodgson formed a compact that whoever died first would communicate with the other, and Professor Hyslop expressed some time ago his satisfaction that he has received messages from Hodgson since the latter's death. "Across the deep no less a proportion of thinking men have turned their thoughts in the same direction. Caesare Lombroso, the great Italian criminologist and anthropologist, after having studied the medium, Eusapia Paladino, has announced his belief in disembodied spirits, although he does not indorse the theory of the return of the dead. Professor Charles Richet, of the Faculty of Medicine, Paris, is a French leader in psychical research work and claims to have photographed the spirit of a Spanish soldier, while Camille Flammarion, the French astronomer, is now an aggressive convert to Spiritism. He says that he has proved that such phenomena as the movement of chairs without contact and the suspension of heavy tables in space are bona fide. "No less than an ex-prime minister has recently been a leader of the ghost hunters of England, where he recently served as president of the Society of Psychical Research. He insists that science cannot explain the psychic wonders which he has witnessed. While he headed the society it made a special investigation of 350 cases of aparitions of the dying in England and Wales, and of these fifty-two cases were accepted as beyond the laws of chance or the possibility of fraud. "William T. Stead has become a medium, so he now says--a writing medium, not one of the tambourine and trumpet band. At first the noted editor accepted telepathy and claimed to have written down the thoughts of living men many miles away. Then, of late years, he alleges, he has gotten into close communion with the dead. But it is only this year that he claims to have developed automatic writing, his right arm becoming impassive while its fingers guide a pen over paper on which appear letters from his son, the brilliant young writer, William, who died a year ago last Christmas eve. Mr. Stead claims that this writing appears without his exercising any will power to either hold the pen or move it. "If the English-speaking public was surprised to hear that Mr. Stead had strayed thus far into the spiritualist camp, it was startled to learn a few months ago that Sir Oliver Lodge, head of the University of Birmingham, had announced his belief in such communication with those beyond the grave. In a recent journal of the Society for Psychical Research he has given details of messages which he claims to have received from dead members of the society through the pen of a writing medium." "The spread of Eddyism and the Emmanuel movement merely emphasises the fact that we have another potent weapon at our command," said Dr. William H. Dieffenbach, of New York, in his annual presidential address to the National Society of Physical Therapeutics, affiliated with the American Institute of Homeopathy, which was recently in session in Detroit. "The use of suggestion to patients," continued the doctor, "should be studied and taught as should every other agent promising relief in the cure of the sick."

This stuff is all very new to me. Until tonight I have never read about any spiritists, and the only one I'm learning anything about is Johannes Greber at the moment. If possible, I also plan to learn a bit about what Mary Baker Eddy (Christian Science) may have claimed that made Woodworth draw a comparison between himself and her. Russell and Woodworth seemed to imply that there were some similarities among the claims of "spiritists" so I suppose that any of these groups is a place to start. In the meantime, please tell whatever you think is relevant about this Atlantean Society. The following "foundation" material should be long enough that no one who doesn't really want to read it will want to read it.  Also, I normally would try to spend enough time to absorb a few hundred pages of material about the subject before I share anything, but I am getting a lot of the following from some sites I downloaded years ago, and I have not really checked out the material for myself yet. Page numbers for the references may even be off, because I do not own Greber's book and have no access to it. I only have direct access to the Watchtower's side of this story. Johannes Greber wrote a book called "Communication with the Spirit World" in 1932, in which he claimed that it was a Christian's duty to communicate with the good spirits and be able to distinguish the bad ones. If, therefore, we, as faithful servants of God, or at any rate, as honest seekers after the truth, try to get into touch with the world of good spirits we are committing no sin, but rather, obeying one of God's commandments; an important commandment, for only through contact with the world of good spirits can we arrive at the truth. There is no other way. . . . From these fetters of error mankind can be freed only, if God will send his spirits as heralds of the truth. (Page 6, 7) At the same time, even throughout this same year, Rutherford claimed that because the "Holy Spirit" had ceased in 1918 that God was sending his angels as ministers and heralds of the truth for those in the Temple class. Curiously, we just saw where Russell had spoken about the beliefs of spiritists as to whether the spirit was able to materialize only in the dark or also in the light. Russell said, this in 1911 which Woodworth re-quoted in the Finished Mystery in 1917 along with the idea about repentant fallen angels from Noah's day: The "chains of darkness" we believe to be a figurative statement signifying that they were no longer permitted to materialize in the light and, generally, not able to materialize at all. (September 1911 Watch Tower) Greber had a lot to say on this very point, also discussing about 6 levels of spiritistic activity (often through mediums) that could include speech, speech through an inspirational medium, automatic writing, seance table tapping and materializing in the dark. Some, they say, could use material or materialized objects. "It is therefore childish and a sign of your profound ignorance in such matters, to ridicule the fact that many spiritistic phenomena can be produced successfully only in the dark. Some of your scientists even assert that darkness is insisted upon only because it facilitates the concealment of 'spiritistic humbug'." (Page 91) On page 79, 80 of the book Greber discusses the phenomenon that lies behind the E.R.A. machines that the Society once promoted: [This section of quotes has been moved to a later post; see below.] Greber also claimed that the way to keep from talking to a bad spirit was to have them take the vow. An oath, he called it, in the name of God that they were not lying. "You know that I am telling you the truth in this, as I have done in all else. You have had plenty of proof of the fact that I am a truthful spirit. For this you have my oath, taken in the name of the Almighty, the true God." (p. 263) Speaking of oaths related to spiritism, "The Vow" that Russell pushed as a kind of loyalty oath was something that the Bethel family repeated every day as part of their morning worship, similar to a daily pledge of allegiance. This was the very item (The Vow) over which Woodworth says he came under the control of the demons, and about which the demons offered him true Biblical and spiritual knowledge. (Because, sometimes the demons tell the truth, he said.) It's what kept Woodworth from accepting that Russell was the Faithful and Discreet Slave, until Russell proved that he really was by pointing out a flaw in Woodworth's reasoning. Here is a portion from the 1975 Yearbook: *** yb75 pp. 51-52 Part 1—United States of America *** At Bethel was located C. T. Russell’s study. Downstairs was the dining room, with a long table that would accommodate forty-four persons. The family would assemble here to sing a hymn, read the “Vow” and join in prayer before breakfast. . . .Would you like to hear the vow that was daily impressed on their minds? Entitled “My Solemn Vow to God,” it goes like this: “Our Father which art in heaven, hallowed be thy name. May thy rule come into my heart more and more, and thy will be done in my mortal body. Relying on the assistance of thy promised grace to help in every time of need, through Jesus Christ our Lord, I register this Vow.. . . “I Vow to thee that I will be on the alert to resist everything akin to Spiritism and Occultism, and that, remembering that there are but the two masters, I shall resist these snares in all reasonable ways, as being of the Adversary. . . .Recitation of this vow was later discontinued among God’s people at Bethel and elsewhere. Another curious parallel between the Watchtower publications and Greber was that the medium Greber communicated with believed that the fallen angels could repent and be saved. On page 297 of Greber's book, he says that even Lucifer would ultimately be saved. The point is also repeated that Lucifer and Christ Jesus were brothers, Christ being made first, then Lucifer second. (Page 267-268). Rutherford also repeated this same point in his own books that Jesus and Lucifer were brothers.

I don't mind bringing it back to its A&W roots here. Angels and Women (A&W) was already discussed around these parts once, and I think you had apparently done some good research on it, if I remember right. I don't think it does much good to guess what was going on in the minds of Russell, Woodworth and Rutherford, but Allen pointed to the particular Golden Age magazine that provides an explanation for a start. I think we can start there or even go back a little farther. (To the first announcement in The Golden Age, July 30, 1924, p. 702.) I have numbered some sentences and paragraphs of that article so I can reference them. Review of Book "ANGELS AND WOMEN" is the title of a book just off the press. It is a reproduction and revision of the novel, "Seola" which was written in 1878, and which deals with conditions prior to the flood. Pastor Russell read this book with keen interest, and requested some of his friends to read it because of its striking harmony with the Scriptural account of the sons of God described in the sixth chapter of Genesis. Those sons of God became evil, and debauched the human family prior to, and up to, the time of the great deluge. We call attention to this book because we believe it will be of interest to Bible Students, who are familiar with the machinations of the devil and the demons and the influence exercised by them prior to the flood and also now in this evil day. The book throws light on the subject and is believed, will aid those who carefully consider it to avoid the baneful effects of spiritism, now so prevalent in the world. The book is revised and published by a personal friend of Pastor Russell, and one who was close to him in his work. It is published by the A. B. Abac Company, New York city. The publishers advise that the regular price of the book is $2.00; but to all subscribers to The Golden Age, it will furnished at $1.00 per volume, when ordered in lots of ten or more. This is not an advertisement, but a voluntary comment. Remember that this is from the first announcement in July. It wasn't until December 1924 that they started explaining what they thought was most important about the book. The original book was written in 1878, which brings up an interesting question (speculative) about whether Russell read it prior to a point he made in the very first Watchtower in July 1879 when he said that truth is truth even if it comes from Satan. This was a phrase that both Rutherford and Woodworth re-quoted from Russell on occasion. But Russell said more on the subject. I don't want to skip too much from context so I will only deal with this first point from the numbered paragraphs above in this post: In a 1911 Watch Tower, with the same idea repeated again in 1914, Russell claimed that some of the "fallen angels" were probably already being judged in fulfillment of Paul's words saying "Do you not know that we will judge angels?" Russell thought these would be the same angels held in Tartarus in bonds of dense darkness. But now released with a higher degree of freedom. Depending on how they handled this freedom, some would no doubt be repentant and gain forgiveness. The following is from the September 1911 Watch Tower in the article: "The Judgment of the Angels." Keep in mind that the theory behind the promotion of the book "Angels and Women" was that it was dictated in 1878 by one of the fallen angels who had repented and desired to do God's will. Since about this time, the anointed might even have currently (since 1878 at least) held some kind of power over them and might be involved in judging them. -------------------------rest of this post is a long quotation from the 1911 Watchtower-------------------------- THEIR JUDGMENT PROBABLY NOW We have answered in previous issues of THE WATCH TOWER that this trial will be, we believe, at the very beginning of this Great Day. And why at the beginning? For the reason that there is only one way, so far as we can see, in which these fallen angels can have a trial, their trial consisting in having a fuller opportunity to sin, if they so desire, or an opportunity to show, if they wish, that they are sick of sin and desire to return to harmony with God. . . . THEY ARE CONFINED TO EARTH'S ATMOSPHERE The Apostles Peter and Jude tell us that after their wrong course these angels were separated from association with the heavenly and holy angels, who were in harmony with God, and were cast down to tartarus, to our earth's atmosphere, "to be reserved in chains of darkness until the Judgment of the Great Day." What does that expression mean? The "chains of darkness" we believe to be a figurative statement signifying that they were no longer permitted to materialize in the light and, generally, not able to materialize at all. But of late spiritists claim, and we believe truthfully, that these spirits can now materialize in as real and tangible flesh as any human being possesses. As they state, and as the facts prove, this can be done only under certain circumstances; they still have a great deal of difficulty in materializing in the light. The "chains of darkness" still seem to be on them to some extent. Spiritists further claim, however, that the spirits are breaking these bonds and that gradually they will be able to do fully in the light everything that they can now do in the dark, and even more than this. The Bible corroborates what the spiritists claim, only that the spiritists teach that these things are done by the dead; who, the spirits tell, are more alive after death than before. Spiritists assert that it is the spirits of dead human beings that materialize. But the Bible takes the opposite position and says that these spirits are the fallen angels, and that so far as humanity are concerned, the dead are totally dead and must remain so until the resurrection. So, then, the Bible and the Spiritists are in decided conflict; and yet there is this harmony that we speak of, namely, that at the time of the Judgment of the Great Day we may expect the bonds restraining these spirits to be loosened. Of course God could hold them in restraint; but He will now permit these fallen angels to have a great lease of liberty. Then will come to them a great trial and testing, or judgment, in respect to their willingness or unwillingness to do according to the Divine will. SOME OF THEM PROBABLY REPENTANT It would not surprise us if some of the fallen angels who sinned in the past have repented and have had long centuries of experience with the unrepentant ones; and that these have suffered persecutions from those of evil mind. And so there may thus be two classes among the fallen angels; the one class desirous of doing the will of God and the other class, like Satan himself, wilfully opposed to the will of God. The trial time will prove each of these angels and manifest to which class each belongs. We think, too, that we see in the Scriptures a passage which we had not seen with the same force before --a Scripture that seems to give a thought along this very line. It seems to imply that at a very near date probably these fallen angels will have wonderful power, such as they have never had since the days of the flood, and that this wonderful power will be used in a very malevolent manner, to stir up mankind to evil doing; and that this will be the key, the secret connected with the awful time of trouble which the Bible tells us will mark the conclusion of this Age and which will constitute the forerunner or beginning of the New Dispensation. . . . The Bible says that Satan is the Prince of the Power of the Air, that he is the Prince of Demons. (Eph. 2:2; Matt. 9:34.) Therefore we understand that in this symbolical sense "the powers of the air" are the demons; that these powers of the air that are being held until the saints of God shall have been sealed in their foreheads, are these fallen angels. As soon as the power that is now controlling them shall be removed, we shall have a reign of evil all over the earth. The evil spirits will do all the evil that is in their power, and this will constitute the trial of all the fallen angels--the lifting of the restraints to see whether they will go contrary to the Divine will. All who thus manifest their alliance with evil in any way will become subjects of the Second Death; while others who show their loyalty to God will mark themselves as worthy, presumably, of everlasting life. It may be something in connection with the saints that will constitute the test of these angels. However, we need not wait many years until we shall know.

And I'm now editing out my reference to it. It's now a mystery!

Yes, you are right. I was focused on what we can know about them based on the experiences we hear reported from all over the world, and how much of this appears tied to what we can know from Biblical examples. Also, I hadn't yet reached the post where you had yourself quoted the same scripture in 2 Cor 2:11 and made the correct point very clearly. There, we must agree to agree. Nothing explicit I would agree, but I think there are sufficient examples to sensitize a Christian conscience of the need to keep clear of certain items. True, I would not own a Ouija board, but if I were a brother who drove a truck for the Postal Services, Fed Ex, "Toys R Us" stores or "Amazon" I wouldn't care less whether someone had just sold either a brand new or a seance-used Ouija board and I was delivering it. I had a book called "Witchcraft in Europe, 400-1700: A Documentary History" on a shelf in my office library (at home) and a sister (who must have gotten "lost" after a circuitous trip to an upstairs bathroom) saw it and chided me for it. I removed it from the shelf, but I still own it and might even get around to reading it someday. That's a given. But do we want to be a part of helping the Devil get the word out that he can possess objects if he cannot? That may have been what we were doing when we warned people that things they buy from Goodwill and garage sales might be possessed. No, I haven't. But where rationalizations are rational, or based on the Bible, we can surely discuss whether or not we are truly letting our reasonableness be known to all. I went to school in a rural area of Missouri for several years where several houses in our area were "haunted" according to schoolmates and even some of the Witnesses. When the rural school was closed after I attended from 1964-1970, I moved into the city school. I learned that the people in the city school who lived on the properties next to those old abandoned houses never believed the stories, and had been through those houses themselves, and that it mostly used by boys taking their young girlfriends who would be the ones to be scared. So I admit that my feelings about haunted houses are skewed away from the typical beliefs that several others in the congregation had. We had a brother who came up from Florida who loved telling ghost stories. He seemed to have so many that I didn't trust him to be telling the truth all the time. So I would agree again that I probably rationalized away a lot of what he claimed, and believed it to be false. But, like Anna, I would happily hear about experiences to help me get a fuller picture.