Shiwiii

The instrument is broken, all of them!!!! 
That is why we are to follow Jesus and not ANY so called organization. I say so called because those in each organization do not and cannot follow men, because men change their ideas to suit their needs. 

I didn't choose the label, the WT did.
I didn't apply the conditions of these people, the WT did.
I didn't say who would make it and who wouldn't, the WT did. 
Read your Revelation book, Aid to bible understanding, reasoning from the scriptures, etc. Its all there where the WT has made these claims, I am just asking you about them, and how YOU align that with the Bible. Obviously you are not in agreement with the WT on this one, so tell me what you do believe. 

What is it we're agreeing to disagree on?  That the apostle Paul said true Christians would be recognized for their constant changing of what they say the Bible really teaches, just the way the WTS has been doing for it's entire history?
Is that what you're agreeing with?  Because I certainly disagree with that.
I wasn't implying anyone was tricked at all.  I thought I was being very clear that JWs change their beliefs when the men on the governing body tell them to because they are listening to those men as though to the voice of God, just as those men have told them to.
[w57 6/15 p.370] Let us now unmistakably identify Jehovah’s channel of communication for our day, that we may continue in his favor. Listen to the inspired answer to the situation, in Matthew 24:45-47 (NW): “Who really is the faithful and discreet slave whom his master appointed over his domestics to give them their food at the proper time? Happy is that slave if his master on arriving finds him doing so. Truly I say to you, He will appoint him over all his belongings.” And has he? Yes, particularly since 1919 has it been true that he has appointed the collective body of the anointed remnant over all the visible interests of the Kingdom. The “slave” then became responsible not only for ministering to the needs of the anointed body members but also for taking on the responsibility of preaching the good news of the established Kingdom to people of all nations. (Matt. 24:14) Such is true not by their determination of it, but because God himself has so directed. “God has set the members in the body, each one of them, just as he pleased,” is the way it is pictured in 1 Corinthians 12:18 (NW). It is vital that we appreciate this fact and respond to the directions of the “slave” as we would to the voice of God, because it is His provision.
If the "slave" is really to be listened to as you would to the voice of God, would you listen to a "slave" who said something like the child born in Revelation 12 is the antichrist?

Tell me this then, those who do not submit themselves to Christ at the end of the thousand year reign,  did they gain to perfection as those who did submit?

JWT, 
It is true that the society believes that only JW's will survive Armageddon. So then only JW's will be there at the end of the 1000 year reign. If only JW's are there after 1000 years, then they HAVE to be the ones who, after being made perfect, would align themselves with Satan by not submitting to Christ. Thus be on the opposite side of God and aligned with Satan, and ready for war against the saints.  

So who does Satan gather together for war at the end of the 1000 year reign if all that are left are perfect?

Do you believe the WTS has interpreted Revelation 20:7-9 incorrectly then?  I posted their interpretation of it.
Revelation 20:7-9 “Now as soon as the thousand years have been ended, Satan will be let loose out of his prison, and he will go out to mislead those nations in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together for the war. The number of these is as the sand of the sea. And they advanced over the breadth of the earth and encircled the camp of the holy ones and the beloved city.”
Your belief is that during the millennium everyone will live in peace and harmony, anyone out of harmony with (enemies of) Jehovah will either not be resurrected or will be summarily annihilated during that time, until by the end of the 1,000 years everyone on earth will have reached perfection and will have become perfectly sin-free, as Adam was before he sinned. Everyone on earth will have studied from the new WTS publications especially designed for them to come to know Jehovah and his requirements, and will have chosen to serve him as his Witnesses.  But then Satan is released and persuades a vast number of these perfected JWs to go to war against their fellow JWs.
 So, is the WTS wrong, or is this something you weren't aware of?

Here, let me refresh your memory and provide the transcript of the opening questions Mr. Jackson was asked: 
 
6       Q.   Do you recognise, Mr Jackson ‐ and in asking this      
    7       question, let me make it clear, I'm not suggesting it is     
     8       peculiar to the Jehovah's Witness organisation, there are       
   9       many, many organisations in this position ‐ but do you        
 10       accept that the Jehovah's Witness organisation has        
 11       a problem with child abuse amongst its members?        
 12       A.   I accept that child abuse is a problem right        
 13       throughout the community and it's something that we've had      
   14       to deal with as well.       
  15         
16       Q.   Do you accept that the manner in which your        
 17       organisation has dealt with allegations of child sexual        
 18       abuse has also presented problems?      
  19       A.   There have been changes in policies over the last 20        
 20       or 30 years, where we've tried to address some of those        
 21       problem areas, and by the fact that they have changed the       
  22       policy would indicate that the original policies weren't       
  23       perfect.        
 24        
 25       Q.   And you accept, of course, that your organisation,        
 26       including people in positions of responsibility, like       
  27       elders, is not immune from the problem of child sexual        
 28       abuse?         
29       A.   That appears to be the case.
 
By mentioning "that appears to be the case" shows Mr. Jackson's acceptance that there is in fact abuse at the hands of JW's in authority. The whole reason why the ARC had this inquiry was because the WT did not report to police. So acknowledgement that this is the case, and acknowledgement of the purpose of the hearing supports my claim. 
 
Actually the Campos case has the WT in Contempt of court and is being fined $4000 a day for failure to hand over documents. 
" A San Diego Superior Court judge has ordered the Church of Jehovah's Witnesses, also known as the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society of Pennsylvania, to pay $4000 a day for every day that it fails to produce documents requested... "
" ... judge Richard Strauss admonished the church for willfully ignoring a court order to produce all documents associated with a 1997 Body of Elders letter that church leaders sent to parishes around the world in a quest to learn about sexual abuse of children by church leaders. "
 
If this were a clerical error, then why have they not produced the documents yet? They are spending YOUR WWW donations daily to keep their records out of court! 

So who does Satan gather together for war at the end of the 1000 year reign if all that are left are perfect?

This Statement By You Is Very telling. You have no idea of the facts, only what the wt has told you. For you to call these cases a money grab and that they are "shysters", when you know nothing of the abuse. The wt has admitted to the fact that these were substantiated claims and that they also have the proof and in some cases confessions. But you can't accept this. So you put your fingers in your ears and scream la la la la I can't hear you.
 
Also by liking your own posts to puff up your "status" is par for the course with the wt too.

Even though knowledge, prophesying, and tongues would one day cease, this does NOT fit the changes being made by the WTS for all these decades.  That's why I explained to you in some detail how these scriptures are not applicable to either the question in the OP nor to the history of the WTS.  Even in simple terms, it doesn't seem to have registered with you yet.
What would you consider to be a balanced and unbiased approach to a group of men who say to listen to them as you would to the voice of God?
If they said that because they are still babies, would you consider it wise to listen to them as you would to the voice of God?
The changes made between the Mosaic covenant and the New Covenant were inspired by God and outlined in his Word, such as circumcision being a spiritual event rather than a physical one, and in no way can this be used as an excuse for the changes the governing body has been making to the beliefs of JWs for all these years. 
That you are willing to accept what they tell you to believe reveals your dedication at baptism was not to God but to the governing body of the WTS organization, which is why you believe you are to change your beliefs about what the Bible really teaches whenever the men on the WTS governing body tell  you to change them.
 

This Statement By You Is Very telling. You have no idea of the facts, only what the wt has told you. For you to call these cases a money grab and that they are "shysters", when you know nothing of the abuse. The wt has admitted to the fact that these were substantiated claims and that they also have the proof and in some cases confessions. But you can't accept this. So you put your fingers in your ears and scream la la la la I can't hear you.
 
Also by liking your own posts to puff up your "status" is par for the course with the wt too.

One of Your Own popes, Geoffrey Jackson, has admitted that there have been molesters within the organization that have not been turned over to authorities. This isn't behind the scenes,  but rather under oath in a court of law, Caesars law, to which the Bible tells us we must obey.
Maybe you should watch the Australian royal commission and see for yourself.  Or you can research the San Diego superior court case against Mr Campos.
I'm not afraid to have my posts challenged, in fact I would hope each and every one of them are. Then we have discussion.  You need to come to the table with proof of your claims and I will do the same. I've given you my proof, please provide yours.

Acts 4:10   let it be known to all of you and to all the people of Israel that in the name of Jesus Christ the Nazarene, whom you executed on a stake but whom God raised up from the dead, by means of him this man stands here healthy in front of you..........12  Furthermore, there is no salvation in anyone else, for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must get saved......17 So that this does not spread any further among the people, let us threaten them and tell them not to speak to anyone anymore on the basis of this name.” 18 With that they called them and ordered them not to say anything at all or to teach on the basis of the name of Jesus. 19 But in reply Peter and John said to them: “Whether it is right in the sight of God to listen to you rather than to God, judge for yourselves. 20  But as for us, we cannot stop speaking about the things we have seen and heard.”
Acts 5:28 “We strictly ordered you not to keep teaching on the basis of this name, and yet look! you have filled Jerusalem with your teaching, and you are determined to bring the blood of this man upon us.”+29 In answer Peter and the other apostles said: "We must obey God as ruler rather than men.   The God of our forefathers raised up Jesus, whom you killed, hanging him on a stake. 31 God exalted this one as Chief Agent and Savior to his right hand, to give repentance to Israel and forgiveness of sins.  32 And we are witnesses of these matters, and so is the holy spirit, which God has given to those obeying him as ruler.”
 

Aren't you reading a little too far into this and creating a persecution complex for the society? I for one do not believe this to be true of jws in general,  but to fabricate a spin is just like the wt to do, instead of taking the "news" at face value. 
Now the second half is something completely different.  The refusal to turn over documents that they had already turned over is appalling,  unless they have something to hide. The details of the first turn over, being redacted beyond recognition is hiding something. If they stand for truth and what Jesus stood for, then they should have no problem.

Well, Mr V, you pressed me for my opinions about Paul's statements in 1 Corinthians 13:8-13 and I gave them.  Please tell me how anything in those scriptures apply to the changes the WTS has made in what they said were true Bible teachings, especially those since you were baptized.
Why do you consider what I've posted as being a worst case scenario?  
Even the WTS says that these scriptures are not applicable to the growth and knowledge humans go thru from babyhood to adulthood.  And Paul is not talking about that either.  He is speaking about spiritual matters, gifts of the Holy Spirit.  Nor is he talking about teaching wrong understandings and having to correct them.
Your analogy to a baby would only apply if you believed the leaders of the WTS resembled babies when they began back in the 1870's and still haven't reached adulthood, therefore you continue to follow what they say are true Bible teachings with the expectation that sometime in the future they will finally reach maturity and be able to teach as mature adults and not need to correct any misunderstandings.
But that isn't what you believe, is it.  You believe they are teaching what our heavenly Father and Christ Jesus want them to teach and that's why you are willing to accept what they tell you the Bible teaches, even if that changes what they told you the Bible was teaching when you were baptized.  Isn't that how you would answer the question in the OP?
 

then why do they expect you to obey THEM perfectly? 

Your answer here is exactly what I was saying:
Lloyd St.- I would hope that the elders would make that plain to me and I would pray that I would have the humility to accept that counsel.
It is not a "straw man", it is what you said, unless you choose to clarify further. Here you stated that if you knew better, you would still seek the elders to tell you what you really are supposed to believe. You said you would even pray that you would accept it.
The same quote of yours I quoted in the response of #1. above is the words out of your "mouth" that supports my statement. 
Why in the world would you want to keep your mouth shut? Is your opinion not worth anything? Of course it is, and the only way "progression" happens is by people questioning things. 
No, I am no teacher of the Bible. I am only a person who reads it and tries to apply it to my life. I am one to question things when they claim to be of the Bible and are not. I do know quite a lot about the organization, but in no way do I know everything. You never did answer my questions, but I'll answer them for you. The Holy Spirit is to teach us of all things (John 14:26), The Christ is to be called "teacher" (Matthew 23:1-10), God directs us (Psalms 48:14). Actually Jesus only said to Peter once to feed His sheep, He asked him 3 times if he loved Him. Peter and Paul both said that circumcision was of no real value. 
Trying your best is admirable, forcing others to obey you and your belief without question is not. Building up people who want to serve God is great, it is something we all should do, but totalitarianism is the exact opposite of building up. 
I understand you believe that the organization is Jehovah's organization, and submission to the org is the same as submission to God. However there is no proof of this tie between the two. Enough said on this one. 
 
Yes, I see your point, it is what you would feel. I did ask how you would feel. I was being short sighted in thinking that one would not become proud and boastful in the discovery of truth before the org did. I was thinking more along the lines of how one would deal with the knowledge they attained and still support the org's view. It never crossed my mind that a person would gain a large ego over it. 
 
Jehovah's people? Who gets to draw the lines of who is and who isn't? Anyway, back on track. When you say "we've" do you mean you helped create the doctrines to which you now follow, or do you mean "we" as a collective org? 
while I know I have taken just a portion of your statement here, it is still within context. 
The organization prides itself on the persecution that it gets as proof, the problem is that it is usually self inflicted. Take for example the Australian Royal Comission, Candice Conti, San Diego Superior Court. The most recent is the San Diego one. The org is being held in contempt of court and sanctioned $4000 a day, yes a day for failing to provide unaltered documents in which they had previously had provided altered beyond legibility. 
This vastly superior knowledge is changing on a regular basis. What kind of trust can you put into something that is going to change next week/month/year? 
Would you drink a glass of water if it had just a little poison in it? 
It matters not what everyone thinks of me, what matters is what God thinks of me. 
 

Those scriptures there in 1 Corinthians 13:8-13 don't apply to the question asked in the OP, unless you're saying what Paul  was teaching were expectations and understandings that would have to be adjusted to other expectations and other understandings later in the future.  IOW that Jehovah had purposely let him teach errors in order for him to realize his need to look always to Him and His Word.
But if you believe those scriptures do apply to the changes and adjustments the WTS has made in what is supposed to be considered as true Bible teachings, let's take another look at them with that in mind.
1 Corinthians 13:8   Love never fails. But whether there are [gifts of] prophesying, they will be done away with; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will be done away with. 9 For we have partial knowledge and we prophesy partially; 10 but when that which is complete arrives, that which is partial will be done away with. 11 When I was a babe, I used to speak as a babe, to think as a babe, to reason as a babe; but now that I have become a man, I have done away with the [traits] of a babe. 12 For at present we see in hazy outline by means of a metal mirror, but then it will be face to face. At present I know partially, but then I shall know accurately even as I am accurately known. 13 Now, however, there remain faith, hope, love, these three; but the greatest of these is love. 
Is Paul saying that he expected prophesies themselves to be wrong and need adjusting, or that there would come a time when the Holy Spirit would not move anyone to prophesy because all prophecy had been fulfilled and prophesying would no longer be needed?
Was he saying that what the disciples spoke in tongues was wrong and would be adjusted sometime later, or was he saying there would be a time when the gift of tongues would not be needed....not that the messages and interpretations given for them had been mistaken.
If the knowledge Paul mentions in verse 8 is the ordinary knowledge common to all mankind thru experiences and studies, that of course would change, but he isn't referring to that kind of knowledge, is he.  He's referring to spiritual knowledge we receive thru the Holy Spirit.  Is he saying that the knowledge imparted by the Holy Spirit would be in need of re-examination and adjustment, or is he saying there would be a time when this gift of knowledge would not be needed?
You would have Paul saying that the partial knowledge and the partial prophesying he had was itself wrong, but what he's saying is that it is partial and not complete yet.  He's not saying he misunderstood anything and had to make adjustments in his understanding.
 

If you paid for your own sins by your death, then Jesus died for nothing. This is what you are saying? Context of Romans 6:7 is that the dead can no longer sin, they are free from acting in sin, not that they have been acquitted. Just read verse 6 and see if you yourself have been crucified? Also, Daniel 12:2 opposes your view, rather the WT view, of not being judged based upon what you do now but what you do in your "second chance". verse 2 clearly states that once awakened/resurrected it is time for judgement, not time for trying again and then judgement.  

This tells me that you are following MEN and not God. 

Of course, logical progression makes sense, if one is guided by the Holy Spirit’s direction.  But as has been brought out, the progression on doctrine has not followed logic.  Lloyd, The term “wait on Jehovah” or as you have said, “wait on Jehovah’s organization” (notice how God and the organization are as one – a duplicity Isa 46:5) in the scriptures, does not mean waiting for God to make us do what is right.  He gave us two choices, placed before us.  He doesn’t serve a spiritual plate, then later remove it by saying wait on me, because I may want you to toss out that previous spiritual gift that was flawed, and I will provide you with a new one.  Deut 30:15,19

Truly, he is waiting for us to choose life or death, through the use of our free will by obeying all of HIS direction and warnings set out in the bible.  The lie is a “spiritual paradise” where one believes safety exists(1 Thess 5:3; Jer 6:13-15); that any and all corruption that may occur within – either from wayward teaching, the wrongs done to individuals - will be fixed by God in order to keep ourselves alive while in it!  As individuals, we take action for our own sake just as Noah did. Matt 24:37; 1 Cor 10:11; Rom 12:1; Ps 146:3

 “Strive to enter through the narrow gate, for many, I say to you, will seek to enter and will not be able.” Luke 13:24 There is only one gate, Jesus Christ; any other one that we may enter can rob us of life.  John 10:7-10

"So when we obey elders, we show respect for Jehovah and Jesus, the two greatest Shepherds"  WT 11/2013

By signing your identity over to an organization, you willingly put yourself in men’s hands as a servant to obey, following their direction, when God says to us as he said in Moses’ day,

 “See, I have set before you today life and good, death and evil, 16 in that I command you today to love the Lord your God, to walk in His ways, and to keep His commandments, His statutes, and His judgments, that you may live and multiply; and the Lord your God will bless you in the land which you go to possess. 17 But if your heart turns away so that you do not hear, and are drawn away, and worship other gods and serve them, 18 I announce to you today that you shall surely perish; you shall not prolong your days in the land which you cross over the Jordan to go in and possess. “  Deut 30:15-18; Heb 12:25

 When do we wait on the Lord?  Scriptures refer to this when we, personally, are suffering from persecution from an adversary, or when we are weak –

But those who wait on the Lord
Shall renew their strength;
They shall mount up with wings like eagles,
They shall run and not be weary,
They shall walk and not faint.  Isa 40:31

Teach me Your way, O Lord,
And lead me in a smooth path, because of my enemies.
12 Do not deliver me to the will of my adversaries;
For false witnesses have risen against me,
And such as breathe out violence.
13 I would have lost heart, unless I had believed
That I would see the goodness of the Lord in the land of the living.

14 Wait on the Lord;
Be of good courage,
And He shall strengthen your heart;
Wait, I say, on the Lord!  Ps 27:11-14

He will be as a sanctuary,
But a stone of stumbling and a rock of offense
To both the houses of Israel,
As a trap and a snare to the inhabitants of Jerusalem.
15 And many among them shall stumble;
They shall fall and be broken,
Be snared and taken.”

16 Bind up the testimony,
Seal the law among my disciples.
17 And I will wait on the Lord,
Who hides His face from the house of Jacob;
And I will hope in Him.  Isa 8:14-17

For evildoers shall be cut off; But those who wait on the Lord, They shall inherit the earth.”  Ps 37:9
Wait on the Lord; Be of good courage, And He shall strengthen your heart; Wait, I say, on the Lord!  Ps 27:14
The organization has taken this term and has convinced the sheep that by remembering to "wait on Jehovah" God will correct their own flawed teachings, that God will fix them, as if saying it is talisman, a charm.  God or Jesus have never told us to listen to false prophesy or to or serve anyone but them.  Matt 16:6
“Thus says the Lord of hosts: “Do not listen to the words of the prophets who prophesy to you. They make you worthless; They speak a vision of their own heart, Not from the mouth of the Lord.”  Jer 23:16
“Behold, I am against those who prophesy false dreams,” says the Lord, “and tell them, and cause My people to err by their lies and by their recklessness. Yet I did not send them or command them; therefore they shall not profit this people at all,” says the Lord.”  Jer 23:32
The teaching that the organization is “Jehovah’s organization” is an operation of error prophesied for the time of the end. Brushing aside the New Covenant as a new way to worship, the organization has developed its own “laws” of burden as did the Pharisees, with an elder “priesthood” displacing God’s chosen priesthood; the GB supporting false prophesy and continued visions of their own minds, as well as shunning their own brothers in Christ based on a present doctrine at hand. 1 Pet 2:5,9,10; Dan 8:11,24; 1 John 3:15; 2:9-11
 
 
Those outside the organization might not serve God  based on a date, but in the organization you will be disfellowshiped if you choose to make known that you will NOT serve God based on any date accepted as present doctrine by the organization.  
4womaninthewilderness.blogspot.com/2014/06/operation-of-error.html


 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

It seems as though you assume that the Septuagint and the NT are the same. They are not. The Septuagint is the OT written in Greek. Now one has to ask themselves when and why the Septuagint was written.  It was written so that the new Greek Christians could read the OT. 
Your link only proves that the Septuagint contained the tetragramatton.  I'm not saying it doesnt, but what I'm saying is the oldest NT manuscripts do not contain "jehovah".
Good try, but you'll have to do better than that. 

The name Jehovah is no where to be found in the Greek scriptures. It is added by men into the NT where it never was.
 
The idea that God cannot preserve His own name in His word without the help of man is absurd.  This limits God and elevates man. 

Jesus’ own name, which we know as “YHWH is Salvation”.
 Jesus name is also Immanuel, "God with us"