HollyW

Even though knowledge, prophesying, and tongues would one day cease, this does NOT fit the changes being made by the WTS for all these decades.  That's why I explained to you in some detail how these scriptures are not applicable to either the question in the OP nor to the history of the WTS.  Even in simple terms, it doesn't seem to have registered with you yet.
What would you consider to be a balanced and unbiased approach to a group of men who say to listen to them as you would to the voice of God?
If they said that because they are still babies, would you consider it wise to listen to them as you would to the voice of God?
The changes made between the Mosaic covenant and the New Covenant were inspired by God and outlined in his Word, such as circumcision being a spiritual event rather than a physical one, and in no way can this be used as an excuse for the changes the governing body has been making to the beliefs of JWs for all these years. 
That you are willing to accept what they tell you to believe reveals your dedication at baptism was not to God but to the governing body of the WTS organization, which is why you believe you are to change your beliefs about what the Bible really teaches whenever the men on the WTS governing body tell  you to change them.
 

David, trying to save his life by hiding who he was and pretending to be somebody he wasn't, was not cowardly. We agree. It's extremely brave to be among those who would turn hostile toward him (even kill him!) in a heartbeat. It's similar with the situation a doubting or unbelieving JW often finds himself in. His family and friends may not go so far as to kill him, but it can lead to them cutting off all contact with him which can be a kind of living death - for both parties.
That assumes that the JW organization is specially chosen by God and that the leaders are God's anointed. A questioning JW who thoroughly researches his religion and concludes it doesn't stand up to scrutiny will broadly fall into one of two camps:

1. Someone who remains a Christian believer and takes the Bible as God's Word. In this case, he concludes that there is a disconnect between the Organization's doctrines, with its claims about itself, and the Bible and known facts. Therefore, the Organization doesn't have a special relationship with God after all, and is just another Christian-based group among many with their various strengths and weaknesses. Subsequently, there is no reason to regard the Organization's human leaders in any higher esteem than one would a clergyman. This person would also be praying to God for strength to endure the situation he was in and to find a way through.

2.  Someone who believes the Bible originated with man. The Judeo-Christian God does not exist. All bets are off. The Organization is human construct with irrational, mumbo-jumbo ideas.

Either way, your point about speaking against God's anointed or organization would be considered moot by a JW dissenter.
Assuming the person is still a Bible-believer, he'll find himself in an impossible situation. Despite the Awake's comment a few years ago ...

"No one should be forced to worship in a way that he finds unacceptable or be made to choose between his beliefs and his family." - g 7/09, p. 29, Is It Wrong to Change Your Religion?
... he'll have to choose between his beliefs (and expressing them) and his family. He can seek out a Christian church and join with them in praise and worship ... but he'll lose his JW family and friends. Or he can keep his beliefs to himself, continue with his JW family and the JW community with its 'unacceptable' worship, but struggle with his godly conscience and personal integrity. He may end up in a spiritual no-man's land. It's not an easy choice and it often takes some time to make.
A person has a better idea of what they were doing if they get baptized as an adult. Not necessarily so with a minor. Eoin and I have had a couple of discussions on the ethics of minors getting baptised as JWs. Rather than repeat myself here, you might like to take a look.

You make it sound like 'no choice' is a good thing. It's one matter for a child to be born subject to a country's laws, but death for not following your parent's religion? Doesn't society criticize fundamentalist Muslim groups/authorities for having a similar mindset? What about tolerance and freedom of religion that JWs often fight for - even going to Caesar's courts to do so? Is it fair to demand those freedoms for oneself while denying the same for one's own children or others?
That depends on your point of view. Losing faith in what? Falling away from what? 

For the still-Christian-but-doubting-JW God, not Satan, is leading them out of the Organization. For the atheist or agnostic JW, the biblical God and Satan don't exist; they survive without expectations of divine help or fears of devilish temptation.

As for your comments about what a person should and shouldn't do, everyone's circumstances are different and the individual has to carefully weigh up his options and their wider ramifications. 

"Don't judge a man until you have walked a mile in his shoes."
 

This Statement By You Is Very telling. You have no idea of the facts, only what the wt has told you. For you to call these cases a money grab and that they are "shysters", when you know nothing of the abuse. The wt has admitted to the fact that these were substantiated claims and that they also have the proof and in some cases confessions. But you can't accept this. So you put your fingers in your ears and scream la la la la I can't hear you.
 
Also by liking your own posts to puff up your "status" is par for the course with the wt too.

One of Your Own popes, Geoffrey Jackson, has admitted that there have been molesters within the organization that have not been turned over to authorities. This isn't behind the scenes,  but rather under oath in a court of law, Caesars law, to which the Bible tells us we must obey.
Maybe you should watch the Australian royal commission and see for yourself.  Or you can research the San Diego superior court case against Mr Campos.
I'm not afraid to have my posts challenged, in fact I would hope each and every one of them are. Then we have discussion.  You need to come to the table with proof of your claims and I will do the same. I've given you my proof, please provide yours.

Acts 4:10   let it be known to all of you and to all the people of Israel that in the name of Jesus Christ the Nazarene, whom you executed on a stake but whom God raised up from the dead, by means of him this man stands here healthy in front of you..........12  Furthermore, there is no salvation in anyone else, for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must get saved......17 So that this does not spread any further among the people, let us threaten them and tell them not to speak to anyone anymore on the basis of this name.” 18 With that they called them and ordered them not to say anything at all or to teach on the basis of the name of Jesus. 19 But in reply Peter and John said to them: “Whether it is right in the sight of God to listen to you rather than to God, judge for yourselves. 20  But as for us, we cannot stop speaking about the things we have seen and heard.”
Acts 5:28 “We strictly ordered you not to keep teaching on the basis of this name, and yet look! you have filled Jerusalem with your teaching, and you are determined to bring the blood of this man upon us.”+29 In answer Peter and the other apostles said: "We must obey God as ruler rather than men.   The God of our forefathers raised up Jesus, whom you killed, hanging him on a stake. 31 God exalted this one as Chief Agent and Savior to his right hand, to give repentance to Israel and forgiveness of sins.  32 And we are witnesses of these matters, and so is the holy spirit, which God has given to those obeying him as ruler.”
 

Acts 4:10   let it be known to all of you and to all the people of Israel that in the name of Jesus Christ the Nazarene, whom you executed on a stake but whom God raised up from the dead, by means of him this man stands here healthy in front of you..........12  Furthermore, there is no salvation in anyone else, for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must get saved......17 So that this does not spread any further among the people, let us threaten them and tell them not to speak to anyone anymore on the basis of this name.” 18 With that they called them and ordered them not to say anything at all or to teach on the basis of the name of Jesus. 19 But in reply Peter and John said to them: “Whether it is right in the sight of God to listen to you rather than to God, judge for yourselves. 20  But as for us, we cannot stop speaking about the things we have seen and heard.”
Acts 5:28 “We strictly ordered you not to keep teaching on the basis of this name, and yet look! you have filled Jerusalem with your teaching, and you are determined to bring the blood of this man upon us.”+29 In answer Peter and the other apostles said: "We must obey God as ruler rather than men.   The God of our forefathers raised up Jesus, whom you killed, hanging him on a stake. 31 God exalted this one as Chief Agent and Savior to his right hand, to give repentance to Israel and forgiveness of sins.  32 And we are witnesses of these matters, and so is the holy spirit, which God has given to those obeying him as ruler.”
 

Great post, Ann.
There's also this in 1 Corinthians 9:19  For though I am free from all men, I have made myself a slave to all, so that I may win more. 20 To the Jews I became as a Jew, so that I might win Jews; to those who are under the Law, as under[i]the Law though not being myself under the Law, so that I might win those who are under the Law; 21 to those who are without law,as without law, though not being without the law of God but under the law of Christ, so that I might win those who are without law. 22 To the weak I became weak, that I might win the weak; I have become all things to all men, so that I may by all means save some. 23 I do all things for the sake of the gospel, so that I may become a fellow partaker of it.

Aren't you reading a little too far into this and creating a persecution complex for the society? I for one do not believe this to be true of jws in general,  but to fabricate a spin is just like the wt to do, instead of taking the "news" at face value. 
Now the second half is something completely different.  The refusal to turn over documents that they had already turned over is appalling,  unless they have something to hide. The details of the first turn over, being redacted beyond recognition is hiding something. If they stand for truth and what Jesus stood for, then they should have no problem.

The Father’s name is lifted up through Jesus’ own name, which we know as “YHWH is Salvation”.

“I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name, the name you gave me, so that they may be one as we are one.”  John 17:11

 If the organization truly could see this there would not have been the presumptuous act of inserting “Jehovah” into the NT.  Jesus bears God’s name within his personage and in spirit.  What more do we need?  Do we dare alter as the WT has, what has been handed down for centuries and still preserve its truth? Perhaps, perhaps not, but who is man to act so brazen in God's sight?



“Jesus is “‘the stone you builders rejected, which has become the cornerstone.’  Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to mankind by which we must be saved.”  Acts 4:11,12

“I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting him who called you in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— not that there is another one, but there are some who trouble you and want to distort the gospel of Christ. But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed. As we have said before, so now I say again: if anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to the one you received, let him be accursed. “ Gal1:6-9

Jesus set forth God’s purpose and the mystery of his will; indeed, Jesus proclaimed “YHWH is Salvation”.  God's name is quite clear as the scriptures stand through every act by his beloved Son, our Lord Jesus Christ. Eph 1:8,17



 

 

 

Well, Mr V, you pressed me for my opinions about Paul's statements in 1 Corinthians 13:8-13 and I gave them.  Please tell me how anything in those scriptures apply to the changes the WTS has made in what they said were true Bible teachings, especially those since you were baptized.
Why do you consider what I've posted as being a worst case scenario?  
Even the WTS says that these scriptures are not applicable to the growth and knowledge humans go thru from babyhood to adulthood.  And Paul is not talking about that either.  He is speaking about spiritual matters, gifts of the Holy Spirit.  Nor is he talking about teaching wrong understandings and having to correct them.
Your analogy to a baby would only apply if you believed the leaders of the WTS resembled babies when they began back in the 1870's and still haven't reached adulthood, therefore you continue to follow what they say are true Bible teachings with the expectation that sometime in the future they will finally reach maturity and be able to teach as mature adults and not need to correct any misunderstandings.
But that isn't what you believe, is it.  You believe they are teaching what our heavenly Father and Christ Jesus want them to teach and that's why you are willing to accept what they tell you the Bible teaches, even if that changes what they told you the Bible was teaching when you were baptized.  Isn't that how you would answer the question in the OP?
 

Those scriptures there in 1 Corinthians 13:8-13 don't apply to the question asked in the OP, unless you're saying what Paul  was teaching were expectations and understandings that would have to be adjusted to other expectations and other understandings later in the future.  IOW that Jehovah had purposely let him teach errors in order for him to realize his need to look always to Him and His Word.
But if you believe those scriptures do apply to the changes and adjustments the WTS has made in what is supposed to be considered as true Bible teachings, let's take another look at them with that in mind.
1 Corinthians 13:8   Love never fails. But whether there are [gifts of] prophesying, they will be done away with; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will be done away with. 9 For we have partial knowledge and we prophesy partially; 10 but when that which is complete arrives, that which is partial will be done away with. 11 When I was a babe, I used to speak as a babe, to think as a babe, to reason as a babe; but now that I have become a man, I have done away with the [traits] of a babe. 12 For at present we see in hazy outline by means of a metal mirror, but then it will be face to face. At present I know partially, but then I shall know accurately even as I am accurately known. 13 Now, however, there remain faith, hope, love, these three; but the greatest of these is love. 
Is Paul saying that he expected prophesies themselves to be wrong and need adjusting, or that there would come a time when the Holy Spirit would not move anyone to prophesy because all prophecy had been fulfilled and prophesying would no longer be needed?
Was he saying that what the disciples spoke in tongues was wrong and would be adjusted sometime later, or was he saying there would be a time when the gift of tongues would not be needed....not that the messages and interpretations given for them had been mistaken.
If the knowledge Paul mentions in verse 8 is the ordinary knowledge common to all mankind thru experiences and studies, that of course would change, but he isn't referring to that kind of knowledge, is he.  He's referring to spiritual knowledge we receive thru the Holy Spirit.  Is he saying that the knowledge imparted by the Holy Spirit would be in need of re-examination and adjustment, or is he saying there would be a time when this gift of knowledge would not be needed?
You would have Paul saying that the partial knowledge and the partial prophesying he had was itself wrong, but what he's saying is that it is partial and not complete yet.  He's not saying he misunderstood anything and had to make adjustments in his understanding.
 

Hi Lloyd,

I do appreciate your concern, very much.  You have sincere fervor to be a spiritual person, but Jesus gave us warning after warning of deception in our day before his return that we cannot ignore.  I know the following is long, but please bear with me. 

At one time the organization’s baptism questions reflected this scripture. Thanks to jwfacts, the sly change in questions over the years is all on one page that you can reference, but I will present part here:

  WT 1944, 2/1 p. 44:   “Have you recognized yourself as a sinner and needing salvation from Jehovah God and have you acknowledged that this salvation proceeds from Him and through his Ransomer Christ Jesus?  On the basis of this faith in God and in his provision for redemption, have you consecrated yourself unreservedly to do the will of God henceforth as that will is revealed to you through Christ Jesus and through God’s Word as His holy spirit makes it plain?”

Notice how, in 1955, being baptized was NOT in the name of an organization as the above question also relates:

"A Christian, therefore, cannot be baptized in the name of the one actually doing the immersing or in the name of any man, nor in the name of any organization, but in the name of the Father, the Son and the holy spirit." Watchtower 1955 Jul 1 p.411

Baptism questions from 1956:

“Have you recognized yourself before Jehovah God as a sinner who needs salvation, and have you acknowledged to him that this salvation proceeds from him the Father through his Son Jesus Christ? “

“On the basis of this faith in God and in his provision for salvation, have you dedicated yourself unreservedly to God to do his will henceforth as he reveals it to you through Jesus Christ and through the Bible under the enlightenment of the holy spirit?"

So far, these question are still in line with Matt 28:19

Wt 1966 10/1 pp 603-4 "We do not dedicate ourselves to a religion, nor to a man, nor to an organization. No, we dedicate ourselves to the Supreme Sovereign of the Universe, our Creator, Jehovah God himself. This makes dedication a very personal relationship between us and Jehovah." 

 Where did our necessary relationship with Jesus go in this quote?  But still, no dedication to an organization is considered acceptable. As the years have gone by, false doctrine regarding one’s dedication subtly appeared as you will see. 

1973 baptism questions:  “Have you repented of your sins and turned around, recognizing yourself before Jehovah God as a condemned sinner who needs salvation, and have you acknowledged to him that this salvation proceeds from him, the Father, through his Son Jesus Christ? 

"On the basis of this faith in God and in his provision for salvation, have you dedicated yourself unreservedly to God to do his will henceforth as he reveals it to you through Jesus Christ and through the Bible under the enlightening power of the holy spirit?”

Please Lloyd, take note of your baptism questions today:

Wt 1985/6/1 p. 30:  “On the basis of the sacrifice of Jesus Christ, have you repented of your sins and dedicated yourself to Jehovah to do his will?” 

“Do you understand that your dedication and baptism identify you as one of Jehovah's Witnesses in association with God's spirit-directed organization?”

Looking over the changes of the source of salvation and dedication, what do you conclude is the basis of my own salvation, is it an organization or is it Christ?  Can you see from the  baptism questions that as you now “preach” to lead one to baptism, the words of Matt 28:19,20 are a far cry from the recent baptism questions and lead one to “membership” into the organization?  These questions are now short and to the point, lacking spiritual substance, with emphasis on the organization.  I not only have dedicated myself to God and Jesus, but I identify myself to them in my continual efforts to imitate them.  

Compare this quote from above…

Wt 1966 10/1 pp 603-4 "We do not dedicate ourselves to a religion, nor to a man, nor to an organization. No, we dedicate ourselves to the Supreme Sovereign of the Universe, our Creator, Jehovah God himself. This makes dedication a very personal relationship between us and Jehovah." 

To this quote from 1990:

"Bible students need to get acquainted with the organization of the “one flock” Jesus spoke about at John 10:16. They must appreciate that identifying themselves with Jehovah’s organization is essential to their salvation. (Rev. 7:9, 10, 15) Therefore, we should start directing our Bible students to the organization as soon as a Bible study is established." KM 11/’90 p 1 

Matt 28:20 – “teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” Amen.

Has the organization observed all the things Jesus commanded in Matt 28:19?  No, since discreetly the organizational requirement has snaked its way in covertly as “salvation”!  Can I say that Jesus is with the organization if his clear, precise commandments are not followed to baptize in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit? No!

“But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Lord who bought them, and bring on themselves swift destruction.  And many will follow their destructive ways, because of whom the way of truth will be blasphemed. 3 By covetousness they will exploit you with deceptive words; for a long time their judgment has not been idle, and their destruction does not slumber.”  2 Pet 2:1-3

Our greatest test in the time of the end is discerning “fine fruit” from the lips of anointed ones.

 “And Jesus, answering them, began to say: “Take heed that no one deceives you.  For many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am He,’ and will deceive many.”  Mark 13:5,6

We know the meaning of the name “Jesus” is “YHWH is Salvation”.  What does the organization say?

“Come to Jehovah’s organization for salvation”  WT ‘81/11/15 p 212  “For many will come in My name, saying ‘I am He’” – “Jehovah”/organization is Salvation.  Jesus is salvation leading to God!

“But concerning that day or that hour, no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.  Be on guard, keep awake. For you do not know when the time will come. Mark 13:22,23

Have you stopped watching, being on guard, now that you reside in the organization – a “spiritual paradise”?  1 Pet 5:8; Matt 10:34

“For false christs and false prophets will arise and perform great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect.”  Matt 24:24

“Christ” means anointed; the GB are anointed and support false prophesies. 

“But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed.”  Gal 1:8

Can you see that “another gospel” is supported by the “faithful and discreet slave” to have all preach that the organization is one’s salvation, and dedication to it is necessary to receive salvation?  2 Cor 11:4

"How can you say, "We are wise, for we have the law of the Lord," when actually the lying pen of the scribes has handled it falsely?  The wise will be put to shame; they will be dismayed and trapped, Since they have rejected the word of the Lord, what kind of wisdom to they have?"  Jer 8:8,9

 “He who speaks from himself seeks his own glory; but He who seeks the glory of the One who sent Him is true, and no unrighteousness is in Him.”  John 7:18

“It is a great privilege to get baptized as one of Jehovah’s Witnesses.”  w16 March pp. 3-7

Lloyd, I have broken free from the oppression by men who believe they can rule over another.  While the GB declares themselves as “faithful”, they willingly “trample” their own in Christ, along with all believers so subtly, using the word “love” to support their own “godliness”, but instead “denying its power”.  2 Tim 3:1-9; Mark 13:14 

Somewhere here, you mentioned Jehovah’s Witnesses are the “scum of the earth”, when in reality it is those who declare salvation in the Father and Christ alone who are indeed viewed as the scum of the earth in the eyes of JWs, as a result of disfellowshiping; this is a sign of the end times.

“They will put you out of the synagogues (Greek-“congregations) . Indeed, the hour is coming when whoever kills you (“figuratively to destroy”) will think he is offering service to God.”  John 16:2 (Rev 20:4)

Have JWs been put out of any congregation in the world?  One’s own brother consistently transgresses against another.  Matt 10:35-39; Mark 13:12,13; Heb 13:13; John 15:20; Please read Luke 12:49-53





The GB is successful in doing this by shutting up their fellow anointed ones, in the same manner as Diotrephes:

“I have written something to the church, but Diotrephes, who likes to put himself first, does not acknowledge our authority.  So if I come, I will bring up what he is doing, talking wicked nonsense against us. And not content with that, he refuses to welcome the brothers, and also stops those who want to and puts them out of the church.”  3 John 1:9-11

This is a time of the sifting of hearts, Lloyd, not to be swayed by a false "peace and security".  God allows it, in order for those seriously seeking God whole souled will find him, through turning to Christ for pure truth.  Luke 22:31; 2 Thess 2:1-12; John 14:6; Rev 3:18; 3:20; Luke 17:22-37

 http://pearl-sign.blogspot.com/

 


 
 

 

 

 

Was David a coward when he hid and feigned insanity among the Philistines and later pretended to be their ally when he was really working against them? Or was he working for the greater good?
Ecclesiastes 3:1-8 - There is an appointed time for everything, A time for every activity under the heavens:  2 A time for birth and a time to die; A time to plant and a time to uproot what was planted;  3 A time to kill and a time to heal; A time to tear down and a time to build up;  4 A time to weep and a time to laugh; A time to wail and a time to dance;  5 A time to throw stones away and a time to gather stones together; A time to embrace and a time to refrain from embracing;  6 A time to search and a time to give up as lost; A time to keep and a time to throw away;  7 A time to rip apart and a time to sew together; A time to be silent and a time to speak;  8 A time to love and a time to hate; A time for war and a time for peace.
Oftentimes it is better to gently coax loved ones into truth by maintaining relationships with them rather than by hitting them with a giant mallet, causing injury and alienation that never fully heals. It takes greater psychological fortitude to use the soft approach - often at the expense of your own mental and spiritual well-being.
When a JW is alone in his unbelief and there is nobody among his family and friends to share his concerns or frustrations with for fear of becoming an outcast (which may cause extreme practical, economic and emotional problems - not just for himself but for others too), online forums are the places to safely vent and get the needed validation and support.
This 'Jordan' guy is going through a process and that is what 'Tears of Oberon' is seeing. 'Jordan' will eventually leave, but it will be when he is ready. How many times have you heard experiences where people have dilly-dallied and taken years to officially convert to the JWs? There is no cookie-cutter method of disengaging from a high-control religious group ... or converting to become a member of one ... and 'Tears of Oberon' will do well to be mindful of the individuality of a person's spiritual journey.

I just thought of another scripture for you.
"And it shall come to pass in the last days, says God, That I will pour out of My Spirit on all flesh; Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, Your young men shall see visions, Your old men shall dream dreams. And on My menservants and on My maidservants I will pour out My Spirit in those days; And they shall prophesy."  Acts 2:17,18

Hi Philip,
"There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.  Gal 3:28
If all in Christ are one with him and not their own (1 Cor 6:19,20), whether male or female, Holy Spirit blesses them as his messengers to teach.  
"you also, as living stones, are being built up a spiritual house, a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ....But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light."  1 Pet 2:5,9
"For the lips of a priest should keep knowledge, and people should seek the law from his mouth; For he is the messenger of the Lord of hosts."  Mal 2:7
This article explains well the role of women in the Body of Christ.  
http://pearl-womenteach.blogspot.com/
 
 

Thanks Charlie, but up until a few years ago you were saying the chain of command was Jehovah > Jesus > Faithful Slave (144,000).  And that had been changed from being just the one man, Russell, which belief his successor felt was doing violence to scripture by excluding the rest of the 144,000.  Was this also an error, as they say 1975 was, that Jehovah permitted the faithful slave to make in order for them to understand they need to always look to him and the Bible?
 

I don't think Lloyd meant he would change his belief about the Trinity, but quite the opposite, if I read his post correctly.

If you paid for your own sins by your death, then Jesus died for nothing. This is what you are saying? Context of Romans 6:7 is that the dead can no longer sin, they are free from acting in sin, not that they have been acquitted. Just read verse 6 and see if you yourself have been crucified? Also, Daniel 12:2 opposes your view, rather the WT view, of not being judged based upon what you do now but what you do in your "second chance". verse 2 clearly states that once awakened/resurrected it is time for judgement, not time for trying again and then judgement.  

Of course, logical progression makes sense, if one is guided by the Holy Spirit’s direction.  But as has been brought out, the progression on doctrine has not followed logic.  Lloyd, The term “wait on Jehovah” or as you have said, “wait on Jehovah’s organization” (notice how God and the organization are as one – a duplicity Isa 46:5) in the scriptures, does not mean waiting for God to make us do what is right.  He gave us two choices, placed before us.  He doesn’t serve a spiritual plate, then later remove it by saying wait on me, because I may want you to toss out that previous spiritual gift that was flawed, and I will provide you with a new one.  Deut 30:15,19

Truly, he is waiting for us to choose life or death, through the use of our free will by obeying all of HIS direction and warnings set out in the bible.  The lie is a “spiritual paradise” where one believes safety exists(1 Thess 5:3; Jer 6:13-15); that any and all corruption that may occur within – either from wayward teaching, the wrongs done to individuals - will be fixed by God in order to keep ourselves alive while in it!  As individuals, we take action for our own sake just as Noah did. Matt 24:37; 1 Cor 10:11; Rom 12:1; Ps 146:3

 “Strive to enter through the narrow gate, for many, I say to you, will seek to enter and will not be able.” Luke 13:24 There is only one gate, Jesus Christ; any other one that we may enter can rob us of life.  John 10:7-10

"So when we obey elders, we show respect for Jehovah and Jesus, the two greatest Shepherds"  WT 11/2013

By signing your identity over to an organization, you willingly put yourself in men’s hands as a servant to obey, following their direction, when God says to us as he said in Moses’ day,

 “See, I have set before you today life and good, death and evil, 16 in that I command you today to love the Lord your God, to walk in His ways, and to keep His commandments, His statutes, and His judgments, that you may live and multiply; and the Lord your God will bless you in the land which you go to possess. 17 But if your heart turns away so that you do not hear, and are drawn away, and worship other gods and serve them, 18 I announce to you today that you shall surely perish; you shall not prolong your days in the land which you cross over the Jordan to go in and possess. “  Deut 30:15-18; Heb 12:25

 When do we wait on the Lord?  Scriptures refer to this when we, personally, are suffering from persecution from an adversary, or when we are weak –

But those who wait on the Lord
Shall renew their strength;
They shall mount up with wings like eagles,
They shall run and not be weary,
They shall walk and not faint.  Isa 40:31

Teach me Your way, O Lord,
And lead me in a smooth path, because of my enemies.
12 Do not deliver me to the will of my adversaries;
For false witnesses have risen against me,
And such as breathe out violence.
13 I would have lost heart, unless I had believed
That I would see the goodness of the Lord in the land of the living.

14 Wait on the Lord;
Be of good courage,
And He shall strengthen your heart;
Wait, I say, on the Lord!  Ps 27:11-14

He will be as a sanctuary,
But a stone of stumbling and a rock of offense
To both the houses of Israel,
As a trap and a snare to the inhabitants of Jerusalem.
15 And many among them shall stumble;
They shall fall and be broken,
Be snared and taken.”

16 Bind up the testimony,
Seal the law among my disciples.
17 And I will wait on the Lord,
Who hides His face from the house of Jacob;
And I will hope in Him.  Isa 8:14-17

For evildoers shall be cut off; But those who wait on the Lord, They shall inherit the earth.”  Ps 37:9
Wait on the Lord; Be of good courage, And He shall strengthen your heart; Wait, I say, on the Lord!  Ps 27:14
The organization has taken this term and has convinced the sheep that by remembering to "wait on Jehovah" God will correct their own flawed teachings, that God will fix them, as if saying it is talisman, a charm.  God or Jesus have never told us to listen to false prophesy or to or serve anyone but them.  Matt 16:6
“Thus says the Lord of hosts: “Do not listen to the words of the prophets who prophesy to you. They make you worthless; They speak a vision of their own heart, Not from the mouth of the Lord.”  Jer 23:16
“Behold, I am against those who prophesy false dreams,” says the Lord, “and tell them, and cause My people to err by their lies and by their recklessness. Yet I did not send them or command them; therefore they shall not profit this people at all,” says the Lord.”  Jer 23:32
The teaching that the organization is “Jehovah’s organization” is an operation of error prophesied for the time of the end. Brushing aside the New Covenant as a new way to worship, the organization has developed its own “laws” of burden as did the Pharisees, with an elder “priesthood” displacing God’s chosen priesthood; the GB supporting false prophesy and continued visions of their own minds, as well as shunning their own brothers in Christ based on a present doctrine at hand. 1 Pet 2:5,9,10; Dan 8:11,24; 1 John 3:15; 2:9-11
 
 
Those outside the organization might not serve God  based on a date, but in the organization you will be disfellowshiped if you choose to make known that you will NOT serve God based on any date accepted as present doctrine by the organization.  
4womaninthewilderness.blogspot.com/2014/06/operation-of-error.html


 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

I don't think I missed the point of your illustration at all.  I understood it just as you've stated it:  "It simply shows that what may appear to be one thing in the darkness, may prove to be something else entirely in the light and upon a closer examination."
That was why I posted what I did when I replied to it.  If at your baptism you understood something to that effect, such as 'this is what the Bible appears to be teaching at present, but it may prove to be something else with more light and upon a closer examination, so let's wait for that light and that closer examination', then your illustration might fit, but I don't think that was your understanding, was it?  
Nor was the teaching about, say, the faithful slave, presented to you as being something that was still in darkness, was it. If we were to apply your illustration to the teaching about the identity of the faithful slave, it would cast Russell and Rutherford and those who came after them as being in the dark about this for nearly the entire existence of the WTS.
Perhaps our views of what progressive light means are different.  From Russell's own description it would not be the sort of light that extinguishes what he called "older light".  His application of this to his teachings was, "A new view of truth never can contradict a former truth."  That would be new light extinguishing older light.  Clearly the differing views about the identity of the faithful slave and also the identity of the superior powers were exactly what Russell said should not happen, that is, "the true increase is by adding to, not by substituting one for another."  He refers to the same scripture I did,  James 1:17  Every good thing given and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shifting shadow.
It might be a good idea to read again what he said in the  February 1881 ZWT p.3:
If we were following a man undoubtedly it would be different with us; undoubtedly one human idea would contradict another and that which was light one or two or six years ago would be regarded as darkness now: But with God there is no variableness, neither shadow of turning, and so it is with truth; any knowledge or light coming from God must be like its author. A new view of truth never can contradict a former truth. "New light" never extinguishes older "light," but adds to it. If you were lighting up a building containing seven gas jets you would not extinguish one every time you lighted another, but would add one light to another and they would be in harmony and thus give increase of light: So is it with the light of truth; the true increase is by adding to, not by substituting one for another. 

Hi again, Lloyd,
Let's take your illustration and in the light you and your father had at first, the stump looked like a bear.  Did your father require that you believe it was a bear in order for you to be approved association?  And did he require you to also teach others the stump was a bear on pain of shunning?  Of course not, so there's the difference in reality that your illustration does not speak to.  Obviously it was still too dark for either of you say the truth was that the stump was a bear.  This is where 1 John 1:5 comes in because the light you were using was not from God: This is the message we have heard from Him and announce to you, that God is Light, and in Him there is no darkness at all. " This verse could not have been written by someone peering into the darkness and seeing a bear where there was a stump.
Look for a moment at the practical application of what Russell wrote.  In the first light that he had, he looked at the faithful slave and saw 144,000 persons.  Later he came to believe he had been looking at one person, himself, and so did all of his followers.  This could be a case of adding more light and showing that it was just shadows that made the faithful slave appear to be 144,000 people when really there was just the one.  For thirty years this was what everyone in the WTS was seeing, but then the next president of the WTS, Judge Rutherford, said the faithful slave was 144,000 person, not just one, in fact he said it did violence to the scriptures to exclude any of the 144,000.  Do you see how the light went back to what it had been in the beginning?  That means that if Russell's light had increased, Rutherford's light had to have dimmed or gone out.
The current governing body of the WTS has in effect put out both the light Russell used to see just himself as the faithful slave and also put out the light Rutherford was using to see the faithful slave as all of the 144,000, and have turned on another light that shows just themselves as the faithful slave, and only when they are meeting as the faithful slave.
If not turning light on and off the way Russell spoke against doing, it surely is showing a dimmer switch being used.
You had felt I was misinterpreting your illustration but you offered it as a way to answer my question about being required to believe something that was not being taught when you were baptized.  You illustrated something being seen in the darkness.  1 John 1:5 shows that this could not be from God because in Him there is no darkness at all.  If the teaching that was changed was akin to what you pointed to as being seen in the darkness, can that teaching be said to be a Bible teaching that one must believe in order to be approved association?

It seems as though you assume that the Septuagint and the NT are the same. They are not. The Septuagint is the OT written in Greek. Now one has to ask themselves when and why the Septuagint was written.  It was written so that the new Greek Christians could read the OT. 
Your link only proves that the Septuagint contained the tetragramatton.  I'm not saying it doesnt, but what I'm saying is the oldest NT manuscripts do not contain "jehovah".
Good try, but you'll have to do better than that. 

The name Jehovah is no where to be found in the Greek scriptures. It is added by men into the NT where it never was.
 
The idea that God cannot preserve His own name in His word without the help of man is absurd.  This limits God and elevates man. 

Jesus’ own name, which we know as “YHWH is Salvation”.
 Jesus name is also Immanuel, "God with us"

Your answer here is exactly what I was saying:
Lloyd St.- I would hope that the elders would make that plain to me and I would pray that I would have the humility to accept that counsel.
It is not a "straw man", it is what you said, unless you choose to clarify further. Here you stated that if you knew better, you would still seek the elders to tell you what you really are supposed to believe. You said you would even pray that you would accept it.
The same quote of yours I quoted in the response of #1. above is the words out of your "mouth" that supports my statement. 
Why in the world would you want to keep your mouth shut? Is your opinion not worth anything? Of course it is, and the only way "progression" happens is by people questioning things. 
No, I am no teacher of the Bible. I am only a person who reads it and tries to apply it to my life. I am one to question things when they claim to be of the Bible and are not. I do know quite a lot about the organization, but in no way do I know everything. You never did answer my questions, but I'll answer them for you. The Holy Spirit is to teach us of all things (John 14:26), The Christ is to be called "teacher" (Matthew 23:1-10), God directs us (Psalms 48:14). Actually Jesus only said to Peter once to feed His sheep, He asked him 3 times if he loved Him. Peter and Paul both said that circumcision was of no real value. 
Trying your best is admirable, forcing others to obey you and your belief without question is not. Building up people who want to serve God is great, it is something we all should do, but totalitarianism is the exact opposite of building up. 
I understand you believe that the organization is Jehovah's organization, and submission to the org is the same as submission to God. However there is no proof of this tie between the two. Enough said on this one. 
 
Yes, I see your point, it is what you would feel. I did ask how you would feel. I was being short sighted in thinking that one would not become proud and boastful in the discovery of truth before the org did. I was thinking more along the lines of how one would deal with the knowledge they attained and still support the org's view. It never crossed my mind that a person would gain a large ego over it. 
 
Jehovah's people? Who gets to draw the lines of who is and who isn't? Anyway, back on track. When you say "we've" do you mean you helped create the doctrines to which you now follow, or do you mean "we" as a collective org? 
while I know I have taken just a portion of your statement here, it is still within context. 
The organization prides itself on the persecution that it gets as proof, the problem is that it is usually self inflicted. Take for example the Australian Royal Comission, Candice Conti, San Diego Superior Court. The most recent is the San Diego one. The org is being held in contempt of court and sanctioned $4000 a day, yes a day for failing to provide unaltered documents in which they had previously had provided altered beyond legibility. 
This vastly superior knowledge is changing on a regular basis. What kind of trust can you put into something that is going to change next week/month/year? 
Would you drink a glass of water if it had just a little poison in it? 
It matters not what everyone thinks of me, what matters is what God thinks of me.