Anna

1 hour ago, HollyW said:

First, since “oneness” is to be observed, a mature Christian must be in unity and full harmony with fellow believers as far as faith and knowledge are concerned. He does not advocate or insist on personal opinions or harbor private ideas when it comes to Bible understanding. Rather, he has complete confidence in the truth as it is revealed by Jehovah God through his Son, Jesus Christ, and “the faithful and discreet slave.” By regularly taking in the spiritual food provided “at the proper time”—through Christian publications, meetings, assemblies, and conventions—we can be sure that we maintain “oneness” with fellow Christians in faith and knowledge.—Matthew 24:45. (Watchtower, August 1, 2001, p.14)

To survive the great tribulation and Armageddon, the WTS says the great crowd must be JWs in good standing----You don't agree with that?

Has the Revelation Climax commentary has been adjusted to say different.   

It says a "mature Christian". We are all at different levels of Christian maturity, learning and adjusting out views and opinions. It also suggests there is nothing wrong with a personal opinion, it is the advocating or insisting on it. That is immature. As for harboring private ideas, well, no one can stop private ideas, and no one except Jehovah needs to know about them. Again to what extend and what KIND of private ideas one harbors does have a baring on the maturity of the Christian. The operative idea is NOT "harboring". This suggests that on the contrary, we should be able to talk about them. And if these private ideas foster doubt, then we should definitely talk to a mature Christian about them.

As regards "To survive the great tribulation and Armageddon, the WTS says the great crowd must be JWs in good standing" JWInsider has covered that.

On 9/4/2016 at 0:24 PM, Jay Witness said:

I was still a Witness at the time, and I believed that if I got an abortion I would go to hell,

???????

5 hours ago, HollyW said:

WTS says No.  Their viewpoint from Revelation Climax p. 126:

How do individuals of the great crowd qualify for survival? The elder tells John that they have “washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.” In other words, they have exercised faith in Jesus as their Ransomer, have made a dedication to Jehovah, have symbolized their dedication by water baptism, and “hold a good conscience” by their upright conduct. (1 Peter 3:16, 21; Matthew 20:28) Thus, they are clean and righteous in Jehovah’s eyes. And they keep themselves “without spot from the world.”—James 1:27.

25 Further, they have become zealous Witnesses of Jehovah—“rendering him sacred service day and night in his temple.”

 

 

 

I have given my opinion in my answer to JWInsider

10 hours ago, JW Insider said:

There have been several statements in the publications for those concerned about children, mentally incapacitated, and those alive at Armageddon who have never had an opportunity to learn of Jehovah's goodness. We once taught that all honest-hearted persons have an opportunity because the angels could create the opportunity for them, even in countries like China, Saudi Arabia, India, etc. Yet, the gains that Witnesses have made in various countries around the world are almost always in proportion to the number of missionaries from Christendom who were allowed to work in these areas in the 17th through the 19th centuries. If Christendom paved the way, then we will do relatively well. If Christendom had been allowed very few concessions or none, then this is also the predictor of how well we have done (so far).

I thought that the related statement below (from 2002) not only says it clearly, but also reminds us to think about our own attitudes. Armageddon, Jehovah's impending judgment, should be a "motivation" for us to show whether we look at our fellow inhabitants with love. Do we see "each" and every individual [in the entire world] as having the potential to become a servant of Jehovah? Love makes us want to share the good things we have. If we love our neighbor, we want to share our experiences with them. If they are uncomfortable, or suffering, we want to share what we can with them to make them more comfortable, and ease their suffering. Religion is generally designed to bring comfort, but often leaves people less comfortable. Religion seems not to address the terrible prospects for the planet brought about by the greed of man. Yet, our message is a very comforting one for those sighing and crying, desperate, and  broken-hearted -- including especially, those who have a love for life on this planet.

The 0.1% number that you mentioned has been repeated in the same context with the message that literally billions will die. (99.9%) But, the publications no longer try to put a number or a percent on the deaths at Armageddon. I like the way it was worded here:

*** w02 8/15 pp. 18-19 par. 13 “Follow Me Continually” ***
How may we imitate him in this regard? Never should we develop a callous attitude toward the people around us. Granted, “the war of the great day of God the Almighty” is looming ever nearer, and many among mankind’s billions will be destroyed. (Revelation 16:14; Jeremiah 25:33) Yet, we do not know who will live and who will die. —Matthew 19:24-26; 25:31-33; Acts 17:31.That judgment lies in the future and belongs to the one Jehovah has appointed, Jesus Christ. Until the judgment is passed, we view each individual as having the potential to become a servant of Jehovah.

To me, this is one of the most significant improvements to our teachings because it does not open us up to the charge of being haughty and presumptuous about who will survive and who won't.

For me, this is one of many improvements the current Governing Body have promoted. When I was first going out in service, and even well after I was baptized, the attitude was quite different, and I remembered being bothered by it, especially when I had to defend that attitude to householders.

*** w55 11/1 p. 648 Using Wisely the Reduced Time Left ***

Time spent in trying to accumulate wealth, fame or power or in trying to perpetuate this old system of things is wasted, and that is what more than 99.9 per cent of this earth’s population are doing.

*** w58 10/15 pp. 614-615 What Will Armageddon Mean for You? ***
On Satan’s side will be all the rest of mankind, more than 99.9 percent, even as we read: “The whole world is lying in the power of the wicked one.” That includes all the governments of the world together with their supporters, the commercial, religious and social institutions. Even the professedly Christian organizations? Yes, because all such that are friends of the world are making themselves enemies of God. . . . God’s Word likens Armageddon to the Flood, to the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah and to the battle at Gibeon, where God rained down great blocks of ice upon his enemies. Armageddon will be the worst thing ever to hit this earth in the history of man. It will be marked by . . . tremendous upheavals of earth, . . . rain of corrosive liquid fire and terror in the air, on land and in the sea.  No wonder that “the slain of Jehovah shall be at that day from one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth: they shall not be lamented, neither gathered, nor buried; they shall be dung upon the face of the ground.”—Jer. 25:33, AS.

There was also an idea that children should be baptized as fast as possible, or the children might not survive even if the parents did. The expression "get into the Ark before the door closes" was even a part of the baptism talk at the assembly in 1967.

*** w58 6/1 p. 330 Why Dedicate Ourselves to God? ***
And yet that is the very course that more than 99.9 percent of earth’s population take and it accounts for the fact that the earth is filled with confusion, misery and wickedness. . . . Dedication is therefore the course of wisdom, for “the wages sin pays is death, but the gift God gives is everlasting life.” . . . Nor may we vacillate or delay. We are living in the days comparable to those in which Noah lived and time is running out! If we procrastinate we may not survive the foretold cataclysmic end of this old world at Armageddon.

*** w51 11/15 p. 682 par. 23 Baptism for Salvation and Fire Baptism ***
So the Scriptural conclusion is that what brought salvation from the deluge was for the survivors to be baptized or immersed into Noah the ark-builder. . . . The seven who went into the ark with Noah had to have confidence in him as Jehovah’s prophet. They had to be unbreakably attached to him . . . . They had to be incorporated into a system of things not of that world, a theocratic arrangement in which Noah was the chief builder, the chief consultant and shipmaster or pilot. So they had to submit to him as the head who took the lead and directed the body of fellow workers. Doing all this, they were in effect baptized into Noah. This being baptized into a chosen servant of Jehovah was duplicated in the case of Moses. As he was the mediator between God and the Israelites, they had no approach into relationship with God except through him. They had to accept Jehovah’s laws through him. Outside of the theocratic organization under Moses’ visible headship and outside of this “state of Israel” there was no hope and a person was “without God in the world”.

Since 99.9% of the world population was going to die at Armageddon, some began saying that they could die but would surely be resurrected. My mother asked about this when hosting the circuit overseer for the week, and the circuit overseer's wife mentioned that her husband had given a talk where he said that they might die during the great tribulation when it was not "Jehovah's final judgment" at Armageddon. My mother was happy. (Her mother, my grandmother, worked almost all her life with mentally handicapped, "idiot savants," etc. Persons full of a lot of love but supposedly without prospects to survive Armageddon.)

Don't know whether the circuit overseer was told to say this or just speculating personally, but this was quite different from previous teachings. For example, both issues: the issue of "children" and the issue of the "uninformed" were dealt with in this question:

*** w51 5/1 pp. 287-288 Questions From Readers ***
Some maintain that at Armageddon there will be three classes: sheep that survive, goats that are eternally destroyed, and uninformed or unresponsible ones who will die but will be resurrected, and that in this latter class will be young children. Is this correct?-L. P., Montana.
We know of no Scriptural backing for such a view. The parable of the sheep and goats shows the nations being separated into two classes, not three. The goats headed for everlasting cutting-off are not just those who persecuted Christ’s brothers. The parable upbraids the goats, not for what they did, but for what they failed to do, for their indifference toward and lack of interest in his brothers.—Matt. 25:45.
Many who never come in touch with the anointed remnant nevertheless subscribe to what others do in persecuting or fail to do in the way of giving help. The Bible shows a communal responsibility, where a community upholds rulers who persecute Jehovah’s people. Did not the Egyptians suffer the plagues because of Pharaoh’s hardheartedness? Did not the Amalekites suffer for generations afterward because of Amalek’s opposition to Israel in the wilderness? Were not the entire households, including little children, of Korah and Dathan and Abiram swallowed up in destruction because of the rebellion of the household heads? Did not Achan by his greed bring death not only to himself but to his sons and daughters as well? Even King David brought death upon his people by his own transgressions. (Ex. 5:1, 2; 9:13-16; 17:8, 14, 16; 20:5, 6; Num. 16:23-33; Josh. 7:24, 25; 2 Sam. 24:10-17) Now, who will be rash and commit the folly of posing as more just than God by saying He was wrong in such procedures?—Deut. 32:4.
In harmony with the parable of the sheep and goats, Ezekiel chapter 9 shows but two classes, those marked for preservation and the unmarked ones appointed to destruction. And in this latter class note that little children were included, to be slain without pity. This is a prophetic picture of the destruction at Armageddon. At a time of judgment Jesus said: “If the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.” That means not only clergy and laity but also parent and child. If a parent chooses to sin against the holy spirit despite the eternal interests of his offspring, that then becomes the responsibility of the parent. In that same time of judgment Paul and Barnabas said to the Jews: “It was necessary for the word of God to be spoken first to you. Since you are thrusting it away from you and do not judge yourselves worthy of everlasting life, look! we turn to the nations.” (Acts 13:46, NW) Those Jews became responsible for the fate of their offspring, not Paul and Barnabas.
Parents devoted to their children will in the interests of their offspring shun wrong ways, taking instead right paths so as to put their children in the way of preservation. “Jehovah knows those who belong to him,” and that also means little children at Armageddon whose parents belong to Jehovah and who try to rear them according to God’s Word. (Deut. 6:6, 7; Eph. 6:4; 2 Tim. 2:19, NW) To Christian parents of young children the promise is: “Otherwise, your children would really be unclean, but now they are holy.”—1 Cor. 7:14, NW.

About 10 years after I was baptized, at the same time I started pioneering full-time, a more comforting answer became available (and has been repeated since):

*** w76 6/1 p. 347 pars. 16-17 Look Forward with Confidence in God’s Righteousness and Justice ***
16 Observe, however, that Jesus did not leave it up to humans to determine who are the “sheep” and who are the “goats.” How fine that is! For, if we humans were responsible to judge, how could we properly evaluate factors such as: How much of an opportunity did a person have to hear and accept the good news? Did his genetic, family or religious background affect his response? What is his heart condition—does he love righteousness? If he is a child or was born mentally retarded, how much bearing should family or community responsibility have on the matter?—1 Cor. 7:14; Deut. 30:19.
17 Unquestionably, not one of us is qualified to weigh these, and perhaps many other, vital factors and principles. We could not reach judgments that are ‘perfect, righteous and upright.’ (Deut. 32:4) Hence, why should any of us become needlessly involved with trying to decide who will survive and who will not?

 

 

Thank you for the pertinent quotes and observations. Very helpful

"Yet, the gains that Witnesses have made in various countries around the world are almost always in proportion to the number of missionaries from Christendom who were allowed to work in these areas in the 17th through the 19th centuries. If Christendom paved the way, then we will do relatively well. If Christendom had been allowed very few concessions or none, then this is also the predictor of how well we have done (so far) - True.

"...think about our own attitudes. Armageddon, Jehovah's impending judgment, should be a "motivation" for us to show whether we look at our fellow inhabitants with love. Do we see "each" and every individual [in the entire world] as having the potential to become a servant of Jehovah? Love makes us want to share the good things we have. If we love our neighbor, we want to share our experiences with them. If they are uncomfortable, or suffering, we want to share what we can with them to make them more comfortable, and ease their suffering. ". - YES. For a while some had the attitude that “We are God’s elite and the rest are Amharetz” . I remember you wrote  in one of your posts about how one of the members of the GB got upset when Bethel wasn’t ranked number 1 as the cleanest offices one year,  or something like that. It is understandable because as God’s organization, we should want to be the best we can be in everything, however if the attitude isn’t coupled with humility then it can bring in an air of superiority, which can rub off on others. I remember (and I am sure some of us had that experience at one point) when out in field service some would “joke” about how they would get that “goats” house after Armageddon. I am glad our overall attitude has changed and it is more like you described. I have not heard anyone say anything similar for many, many years now. On the contrary, there is a lot more kindness and compassion for the householders.  Interestingly, those who made such pompous, judgemental  remarks are no longer in the truth....

"Unquestionably, not one of us is qualified to weigh these, and perhaps many other, vital factors and principles. We could not reach judgments that are ‘perfect, righteous and upright.’ (Deut. 32:4) Hence, why should any of us become needlessly involved with trying to decide who will survive and who will not?" - Yes, very true. Of course we can't decide. In that case, it still begs the question though what will happen to aprox. 7 million people who have no chance of getting to know Jehovah because of the time factor.

"That judgment lies in the future and belongs to the one Jehovah has appointed, Jesus Christ. Until the judgment is passed, we view each individual as having the potential to become a servant of Jehovah". - This is probably the most satisfying answer, (to me anyway) because if we can view someone as "having the potential", then Jehovah can actually KNOW the potential. This is perhaps the answer to what will happen to those without knowledge, they will be judged according to their potential....It is interesting also to consider Matthew 25:41- 43  “Then he will say to those on his left: ‘Go away from me, you who have been cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the Devil and his angels.For I became hungry, but you gave me nothing to eat; and I was thirsty, but you gave me nothing to drink."....etc. It is obviously talking about those who SHOULD have known him and his representatives on earth, but chose not to. Those who are ignorant of Jesus and Jehovah, not through choice, surely cannot fall into this category.....imo. This would also of course apply to those who are intellectually limited. As for children...that's a difficult one since they are the responsibility of their parent, nevertheless they are innocent, for the time being anyway, but Jehovah can project what they would be like once they grew up I am sure.... My very good friend, when she first started to study, had a problem with this question regarding children, she didn't really get a satisfying answer (to her) at the time. It bothered her as she had a much younger brother, who was just a toddler. But she persevered and became a loyal sister nevertheless. Forward 30 years later:This little "toddler" is now a practicing homosexual, drug addict and a useless member of society choosing to lead a debauched life and criminal life. This is of course not to say he could not change, but the point is, children grow up, and choose a way of life according to their wishes, for the most part, so Jehovah surely would be able to see what kind of persons they would become......

"Religion is generally designed to bring comfort, but often leaves people less comfortable. Religion seems not to address the terrible prospects for the planet brought about by the greed of man. Yet, our message is a very comforting one for those sighing and crying, desperate, and  broken-hearted -- including especially, those who have a love for life on this planet". - Nice statement

Ok,

4 hours ago, Anna said:

I don't know what the Praeceptor said, I couldn't find it....perhaps you can tell me

Ok, I  think found it. The Praeceptor said return "To the congregation! If you want to be part of the christian congregation you must adhere to the biblical high standards" I think that's what you mean.

Well of course, if you return to God and Christ you will adhere to Biblical standards, and automatically want to return to the congregation. Both go hand in hand. What the Praeceptor said is correct. What I said was correct. Both aspects are in the Bible.

If you want to read something about organization:  https://www.jw.org/en/publications/magazines/watchtower-study-november-2016/organized-in-harmony-with-gods-word/

55 minutes ago, Shiwiii said:

what does that have to do with it? You made the statement that Witness could not be a JW if he didn't know that is was to come to God and Christ. The Praeceptor clearly did not give the same answer as you did. So that means someone, either you or The Praeceptor, needs to get in line and speak together or else there is a division among your group. 

I don't know what the Praeceptor said, I couldn't find it....perhaps you can tell me

28 minutes ago, Shiwiii said:

I believe this is limiting God. Does God need anything from us to do His will? Your statement makes the argument that there is.

 

Of course God does not need a thing from us to do his will. His will is that  " all sorts of people should be saved and come to an accurate knowledge of truth". (1 Tim 2:4) The preaching work is a kind privilege He gives to faithful ones so they can demonstrate their love, obedience and loyalty to him. Never mind the fact that it was actually a command from Jesus, to go and make disciples. (Matthew 28:18-20)

"For “everyone who calls on the name of Jehovah will be saved.”However, how will they call on him if they have not put faith in him? How, in turn, will they put faith in him about whom they have not heard? How, in turn, will they hear without someone to preach?  How, in turn, will they preach unless they have been sent out? Just as it is written: “How beautiful are the feet of those who declare good news of good things!" (Romans 10:13-15)

27 minutes ago, Shiwiii said:

That is not what The Praeceptor said, do you believe that The Praeceptor not a witness? 

My other sentence clarified my statement: " We want to make sure we have God's and Christ's understanding on what it means to "come" to them".

4 hours ago, Witness said:

Come back to what, Anna?  And who’s forgiveness do we seek? Is it the organization and under man's decision of acceptability and worthiness?  Or do the scriptures say we repent and come back to God and Christ?  God isn't the organization, is he?

Isa 46:5 - “To whom will you liken Me, and make Me equal And compare Me, that we should be alike?”

John the Baptist told the Jewish people, to repent of their wrongdoings, never leading them to an organization, but preparing them for Christ.  Jesus' message was to his own people, to repent.  They did this by recognizing who he was and his salvation for all of us.  Matt 4:17

Should we equate salvation with what man has built, or should we respectfully give credit of salvation to Christ and the Father?

1 Cor 7:23 - "You were bought at a price; do not become slaves of men."

We become "slaves of men" when putting our salvation in their hands, as if they are the ones who read our hearts.

Jer 17:10 -  "I, the LORD, search the heart, I test the mind, Even to give to each man according to his ways, According to the results of his deeds.

 

Ps 139: 23-24 - "Search me, O God, and know my heart;
Try me, and know my anxieties;
 And see if there is any wicked way in me,
And lead me in the way everlasting."

Rom 8:27 - "Now He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He makes intercession for the saints according to the will of God."

The Catholic Church uses a false priest and confessional, becoming mediator between man and Christ.  The Watchtower uses false priests, called a judicial committee, and the back room, becoming mediator between man and Christ.

 

If you were one of Jehovah's Witnesses you would know what I meant by come back. It's obvious it is come back to God and Christ. However, that statement in itself is very ambiguous and means different things to different people. We want to make sure we have God's and Christs understanding on what it means to "come" to them.

I see to you, organization is a dirty word. However, God is a God of order and there can be no order unless there is organization, especially as regards the enormous task of "preaching in all the inhabited earth", which his followers would be doing. Also, there could be no doctrinal unity without organization. There is only one truth.

No one has ever suggested that the judicial committee is any kind of mediation between man and Christ. The sole purpose of a judicial committee is to ascertain, on available evidence, whether a person can continue to be called one of Jehovah's Witnesses. The Christian congregation (on a larger scale the organization) must be kept morally and spiritually clean, otherwise it would lose God's approval as being his representatives and ambassadors. It has happened, on very rare occasions, that someone has been wrongfully disfellowshipped. If that was the case, then this would have no baring on how God and Christ view them. Conversely, if they have been rightfully disfellowshipped, then it is still ultimately up to Jehovah and Christ how they view them, their view is what ultimately counts and not the brothers view. Jehovah reads the heart and he knows the full situation.

As regards coming back to an organization, well that is logical, that is where your spiritual brothers and sisters are, people of like mind and belief. It is not God's purpose to have randomly scattered people who have "come" to him and Christ but who do not associate with others who have done the same. - “This is what Jehovah of armies says, ‘In those days ten men out of all the languages of the nations will take hold, yes, they will take firm hold of the robe of a Jew, saying: “We want to go with you, for we have heard that God is with you people.”’” (Zechariah 8:23)

"In the final part of the days, The mountain of the house of Jehovah Will become firmly established above the top of the mountains, And it will be raised up above the hills, And to it all the nations will stream.  And many peoples will go and say: “Come, let us go up to the mountain of Jehovah, To the house of the God of Jacob. He will instruct us about his ways, And we will walk in his paths.” For law will go out of Zion, And the word of Jehovah out of Jerusalem........." (Isaiah 2: 2 - onward)

8 hours ago, ThePraeceptor said:

I don't think anyone who doesn't know God and lives by His principles will enter but that's just my interpretation of things.

Well that is what I generally think, because it would seem like that according to Matt 20:1-15. That is why I started wondering about those billions of people in India and China and the statistics of 1:400, which of course do not exist there. It seems illogical to think that those two countries would have virtually no one (relatively speaking) whose heart would be inclined to the truth, because all people are basically the same as regards heart conditions; that there should be at least 1 out of 400 Chinese and Indian persons who would accept the truth. If we were to say no, wouldn't that be racist? So in view of this, there is at least 7 million who still need to come to know Jehovah....and there is no time for that....so that is why I got to wondering about how would it be done and if anyone had any scriptural suggestions.

But you are right, in the end these are theoretical games. In any case, with Jehovah, anything is possible.

P.S. I spoke to a brother at our hall the other day whose son and his wife are special pioneers in Indonesia and they have a nice little congregation going there. I think that's what got me to thinking about the vastness of the far east, and all those billions of people living there....

2 minutes ago, Anna said:

If they do not get the chance, because of the circumstances I talked about, then it would be up to Jehovah to see their hearts, because if Jehovah wants to, he can predict whether someone would be receptive to the truth if given the chance or not. So my suggestion was that this may have to happen because of the limited time left to reach all those people... then no, maybe not everyone surviving Armageddon will be one of Jehovah's Witnesses, whether they are "saved", would ultimately rest with them according to how they reacted afterward.

4 hours ago, Arauna said:

 

I am not going to quote scriptures - just reason with you: There is a difference between willful sin and unpardonable sin.  When one commits adultery one 'knows' that it is wrong - so one can equate it with willful sin which is committed out of weakness.   However, can one equate this sin with someone who has tasted the love of Jehovah's spirit and then turned against Jehovah and his organization in full hate and try to stumble as many people as possible? .... this is equal to the sin of Satan - an unpardonable sin.

Although many apostates have returned it does not mean that all apostates have committed the unpardonable sin. Jehovah is the one who knows if someone has sinned against his Spirit so that they will not return to his organization.   The sin they have been 'practicing' has hardened their heart to the extent that they become like pharaoh - self-willed / self-righteous to the extent where they will never subject themselves to Jehovah or his organization ever again.

When I was a young teenager I would worry in case I sinned against the holy spirit, which is unpardonable. How would one know? As I got more knowledge and experience in the truth I realized that those who commit the unpardonable sin do NOT ever want to repent or come back. So even if someone sins greatly, (even joining false religion for a time) and they seek forgiveness and repentance, that in itself is a sign they have not committed the unforgivable sin. Quite logical really.

2 minutes ago, HollyW said:

 

That's quite the broad brush you're painting with there.

Just history and experience Holly

3 hours ago, HollyW said:

Anna, it's not necessary for salvation for anyone to have heard of Jehovah's Witnesses.  It's Jesus they would have heard of to be saved.

I found some information about the spread of the Christian gospel around the world.  They might be of some interest to you.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity_in_India

https://answersingenesis.org/wild-brothers/tribal-missions/

https://www.cru.org/communities/ministries/the-jesus-film-project.html

http://www.wnd.com/2012/07/70000-christians-locked-in-concentration-camps/

Holly, I'm afraid I do not subscribe to the beliefs of Christendom. To me, their leaders are counterfeit Christians, and most of who follow them, or profess to be Christians are such in name only.

13 hours ago, ThePraeceptor said:

(1) If I may ask... How do you arrive to this number? Why you think nearly half and not, let's say, 3/4? I'm just asking because I'm trying to understand your reasoning here.

(2) Personally I don't care how long the "generation" is/will be, when it started, how many will "pass" etc. I prefer to focus on becoming a better christian/servant of God so as to be ready whenever the end may come. I concluded this from these scriptures: Mark 13:32, Acts 1:7, 1 Thess. 5:1-5

 

Hi Praeceptor,

I said nearly half because there is 8 million of us right now, so if the other 7 million also came in then that would be almost double, i.e. 8 + 7 = 15. But if the 7 million do not ever hear of the truth (which was my reasoning prior to that) then they would have to enter the new system ignorant of Jehovah.....so that would mean nearly half of the people who would survive Armageddon would not know him....

I agree with you fully, I don't care either how long the "generation" is and that is why I wish we would stop discussing it. We will be going through it (again!) at our congregation Bible Study at the end of this month.....Just like you, I prefer to focus on becoming a better Christian, and the ministry, and to be ready. I get a little frustrated when we go on about the "overlapping" I wish we would stop it, as (to me) it makes no sense at all....

7 hours ago, JW Insider said:

I appreciated the chance to practice typing. I'm trying to increase my speed, and will use any excuse I can get. (That, and you didn't get a chance to say that my "tldr" posts have started to annoy you yet.) 

Your lovely long posts are not annoying me in the least . I just wish I had more time right now. I am working towards a deadline which is at the end of this month and I still have so much to do. I come here to get a quick break and distraction, so I don't burn out, and I even posted a quick topic, which I later realized I titled completely wrong... .but I can't change it now.....and I have no time to properly reply on it either, at least not if I don't want to make any further blunders  .....So, roll on end of the month and then I can breathe again...I'm still working and it's well past midnight here...

40 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

Hello Anna,  Welcome. Hope you don't mind if I add a few points.

Russell never scrapped the 1874 date, ever.

The 1873/4 date was actually originally suggested as a possibility by "Father Miller" himself back around 1843/4, but many of the Second Adventists after Miller preferred looking to closer dates in the 1850's and 1860's. (Many others did what Miller himself did, and said they shouldn't be setting dates any more. The Seventh Day Adventists generally followed Miller's advice.)

Barbour had the advantage of having been promoting the 1873/4 date from all the way back when other date-setters were still focusing on those 1860's dates. This is what made Barbour's name most closely associated with 1874 among the remaining Adventist date-setters. (He was the only one left standing after the previous failures.) Therefore, after the the 1860's failure, this meant that Barbour had a newly "captive" audience of Second Adventists that would quickly number to around 15,000 subscribers in time for the initial 1873 date expectations. He had to start building up the numbers again after the two main failures in 1873 and 1874, but Barbour (via one of his "Herald" contributors, B W Keith, and prior to Russell "discerning" it) declared 1874 to be correct as the beginning of an "invisible" presence, and then set 1878 as the new date for Christ's return.

This is why it was so urgent for Russell to put money into publicizing 1878, and why he funded a much larger distribution of Barbour's "Three Worlds" in 1877 that spelled out the "times and seasons" aspect of the Lord's Return, while Russell himself wrote a smaller booklet that focused on the "object and manner" aspect of the Lord's Return. Russell did get his name put on "Three Worlds" as co-author, but I've read that he probably didn't add much of anything himself. But all of this was focused on preparing for 1878. 1874 was used as a foundation to prove that 1878 was urgent!

Russell says that when 1878 failed, Barbour started spouting some bad doctrine in order to create a "distraction" from the failure of that date. Russell said that 1874 was still right, and 1878 was still right, but that they had expected the wrong thing. Russell then funded the Watch Tower magazine due to the urgency of the 1881 date when he was sure that the Bride of Christ would be joined with Christ in heaven, while remaining Christians would participate in a 40-year harvest that lasted from 1874 to 1914. 

It's true, as Ann said, that the 1874 was dropped around 1930, but there were some ways in which the "1874 chronology" (based on a chronological year-by-year correspondence between Jewish and Christian events) remained for several years, even after 1874 itself was dropped. Note the last vestige of this chronology:

*** kr chap. 5 p. 50 par. 5 The King Shines Light on the Kingdom ***
The harvest would extend from 1874 to 1914 and would culminate in the gathering of the anointed to heaven.

This 40-year harvest remained "on the books" up until 1961, but it had been slightly adjusted:

*** w54 3/1 p. 150 par. 5 Restoration of True Religion Today ***
Not until the Lord of the harvest gave the command could that be done. Corresponding to the events of the first advent, there is first an “Elijah” work performed, like the work of John the Baptist, to warn the people, trying to bring them to repentance. Such a work was prosecuted in a particular way from 1878 to 1918

*** w51 7/1 p. 410 par. 6 ‘Time, Times and Half a Time’ ***
6 Now note further corroborative proof of this period of time: “I will cause my two witnesses to prophesy a thousand two hundred and sixty days dressed in sackcloth.” (Rev. 11:3, NW) The “two witnesses” are the antitypical Elijah-John-the-Baptist work, and their being introduced at this time is important, for it helps us to understand Daniel’s prophecy. . . .  foreshadowed great works to be accomplished at this end of the system of things, and which were also to be done before 1918. . . . So it was antitypically with the work done from 1878 to 1918.

*** w52 2/1 p. 78 par. 7 Jehovah’s Theocratic Organization Today ***
But again we ask, “Who really is the faithful and discreet slave whom his master appointed over his domestics to give them their food at the proper time?” In 1878, forty years before the Lord’s coming to the temple for judgment, there was a class of sincere consecrated Christians . . .

*** w60 10/1 pp. 606-607 The Great Wheat Harvest ***
What was foretold in the illustration of the great harvest has been taking place in our day,. . . Christ’s anointed followers have been separated from Christendom, and imitation Christians appearing among them are removed as weeds are removed from harvested wheat. . . . The history of Jehovah’s witnesses, particularly since 1918, verifies the accuracy of what Jesus prophesied. . . .  As the harvest period in the illustration . . . . The more than forty years [1918 to 1960] that have passed since its beginning is short when compared with the centuries that have passed since the congregation was planted.

 

Thank you JW, you are right of course, my statement was rather arbitrary. I had researched this topic quite a while ago, but I should have gone back and refreshed my memory. I am pressed for time right now and I should have waited until I had time to get my facts right before posting, instead of just shooting from the hip. Not a good habit if you want to present a proper  argument.

Thanks for all the additional information.

Yes, plenty long enough, perhaps "generation" is just a time period, and not a literal generation.

14 minutes ago, HollyW said:

The Great Tribulation and Armageddon......not to put too fine a point on it.

Yes, another group. I was referring to the two groups of spirited-anointed JWs that make up "the generation".

 

 

OK, to put an even finer point on it: to be granted the prospect of everlasting life.

I knew what you were referring to. This area is something that I think we haven't got quite right yet.

1 minute ago, HollyW said:

Will only Jehovah's Witnesses be saved from what?  Sin and death?  

What do you think about the possibility that there's another group of spirit-anointed JWs whose lives overlap the second group of that generation?

In this particular instance I mean survive Armageddon. I should change the title.

Another group? No, I can't see that. The scriptures only mention 2 groups, the anointed and the other sheep

24 minutes ago, HollyW said:

What I posted from the 2014 book, "God's Kingdom Rules"........

 

 

"In 1914, the Bible Students began to discern the sign of Christ's invisible presence.

"

 

.....is not honest since it was not in 1914 at all but in 1876 that the Bible Students began to discern the sign of Christ's invisible presence as having begun in 1874......and, yes, Russell was convinced of 1874 by Barbour in 1876, which is why in 1879 he named his magazine Zion's Watchtower and Herald of Christ's Presence ---- he was heralding Christ's invisible presence as having begun in 1874.  And, as Ann has pointed out (thank you, Ann) that continued to be the WTS teaching clear thru 1914 and on into the 1930's.

So, in reality, Russell and the Bible Students missed BOTH dates of his invisible presence---the first by a couple of years and the second by 20 years or so.

What they were actually discerning in 1914 was that all of Russell's predictions about that year had failed miserably.  They were expecting to be raptured to heaven, that didn't happen.  They were expecting the Great Tribulation and Armageddon would be over, instead a world war erupted.  They were expecting the Millennium Kingdom to come, it didn't.  You can see the other things they were expecting from the seven proofs Russell had been teaching them since 1889---none of them took place either before 1914 nor after, nor any time since 1914.

So, no, the Bible Students had not begun to discern the sign of Christ's invisible presence in 1914 and it is dishonest to say they had.  The religious leaders of the WTS should know this.

Well I guess it depends how you look at it. From our perspective, yes, the Bible Students did begin discerning Christ's presence in 1914.  It is no secret that the Bible Students were disappointed. It was written about quite a number of times, that their expectations were wrong. In fact, page 50, paragraph 5, of God's Kingdom Rules, does not hide the fact either.

29 minutes ago, HollyW said:

The WTS says that is the argument used to identify the true religion:

 

 

[w69 3/15 p.165-167] We need to examine, not only what we personally believe, but also what is taught by any religious organization with which we may be associated.

Are its teachings in full harmony with God’s Word

, or are they based on the traditions of men? If we are lovers of the truth, there is nothing to fear from such an examination. It should be the sincere desire of every one of us to learn what God’s will is for us, and then to do it.—John 8:32.

 

 

Or do you think maybe they meant that for just other religious organizations and not their own?

It is relative. As "fully" as humanly possible, in their limited human capacity. There is STARK contrast between how "in full" harmony Christendom is, and how "in full" harmony Jehovah's Witnesses are. There is no comparison. Christendom is based on "the traditions of men" .

17 hours ago, JW Insider said:

That was in 1927. But an organization can change its beliefs without being "apostate." You might be surprised, but I just wrote several paragraphs defending Rutherfod in most of those changes from 1927 to 1931, even if he did get some of them wrong. Maybe I'll save what I wrote for a more appropriate topic.
 

Let me know where you post it! :-)

Something I thought might be relevant since we are studying the God's Kingdom book. Not long ago, in a WT article, it was mentioned in reference to the "Kingdom being preached in all the inhabited earth" that this will not mean that literally everyone on Earth would have heard about the Kingdom before Armageddon starts.

When one does a bit of mathematics (not my forte) and calculates the percentage of current Jehovah's Witnesses in comparison to the World's population we arrive at 0.1%. This is a very small percentage indeed. (8 million JW to 8 billion population)

If we were to assume some averages, and use the United States as a fair example, then we can assume the ratio of 1 publisher to roughly around 400. This seems a fair number since "only a few are the ones finding the road to life". However, as we know, there is practically a non existent ratio when it comes to India and China, two of the world's countries with a population of over 1billion each (the majority of whom have never heard of the Bible, never mind Jehovah's Witnesses).  If we would assume the same ratio of 1:400, then this would immediately create over 3 million Witnesses in each of the two countries, i.e. over 6 million in India and China alone, bringing the total of JWs to over 14 million. If we were to also add 650 thousand in Indonesia, 485 thousand from Pakistan, and 402 thousand from Bangladesh that adds another 1.5 million bringing the total to over 15 million, almost doubling the Witnesses today.

If we go by the fact that all people are equal in Jehovah's eyes, and that no nation is above another when it comes to salvation, and that all people are basically the same, then we have to assume that there are people in those countries who, if given the chance, would embrace the truth and put themselves on Jehovah's side and create that ratio of 1:400.

With that in mind, it is evident that either there is going to have to be a lot of preaching done, verging on the miraculous, in order to bring in over 7 million new Witnesses within the allotted time of the "Generation", or, Jehovah will judge their hearts and allow nearly HALF of the people, (agnostics or believers in false Gods) entry into the new world without them even needing to know him.

Or, is "this Generation" a lot longer than we think.....

Any scriptural thoughts?

1 hour ago, HollyW said:

 

On page 21 of this book, "God's Kingdom Rules", there's a drawing of a street scene with Jesus above it and this caption printed on it: "In 1914, the Bible Students began to discern the sign of Christ's invisible presence."

However, history buffs will know that the Bible Students had already discerned Christ's invisible presence as having begun in 1874, and they continued that declaration throughout 1914 and several decades after it.

This is from Rutherford's Biographical sketch of Russell after his death:

Like other Christians he was looking for the Second Coming of Christ. Between 1872 and 1876 he discovered that the Scriptures clearly teach that the Lord would return as a spirit being, invisible to human eyes, not in a body of flesh, and that His Second Presence was due in the autumn of  1874.  This led to the publication of a booklet entitled "The Object and Manner of Our Lord’s Return," which had a phenomenal sale.

 

Many students of the Bible throughout the United States and Canada responded to the information derived from that book, and Pastor Russell’s correspondence became voluminous. Realizing the necessity of keeping the Truth before the minds of those who had begun to investigate, in 1879, he began the publication of "The Watch Tower and Herald of Christ’s Presence," and was its sole editor to the time of his death. [Overland Monthly/OV442- The Late Pastor Russell (By J.F. Rutherford)

 

 

Why the dishonesty in the 2014 book?

 

There is no dishonesty. Russell got his ideas about the date from Barbour and soon after that parted ways with him and also scrapped the date. The important thing was that Russell discerned, as opposed to what Christendom taught, that Christ's presence would be invisible. There is no mention of the year 1874 in the booklet. Russell states "It is not my object in this pamphlet to call attention more fully to the TIME.......those interested in knowing the evidences as to the time I would refer to Dr. N H Barbour... (page 62. The object and manner of our Lords return).

1874 was Barbour's date.