Nana Fofana

It is interesting to compare the similarities in Colossians 1:15-17 with John 1:1-3.
 
Colossians 1:15-17:
15 He is the image of the invisible God,
the FIRSTBORN of ALL creation;
 
16 because by means of him
ALL other things were CREATED
in the heavens AND on the earth,
the things visible and the things invisible…
 
ALL other things have been CREATED
THROUGH him and FOR him.
17 Also, he is BEFORE all other things,
and by means of him  ALL other things were made to EXIST,
 
John 1:1-3:
1 In the BEGINNING was the Word,
and the Word was WITH God,
and the Word was a god.
2 This one was in the BEGINNING WITH God.
3 ALL things came into EXISTENCE THROUGH HIM,
and apart from him NOT EVEN ONE THING came into EXISTENCE…

We are not talking about the city of  Cain or the nomadic settlements in the time of Abraham - (although Ur was a city state and Melchizedek was a priest-king of Jerusalem /Salem) in his time.
We are talking about the culture of cities-states which was started by Nimrod (built many cities in Babylon and Assyria) and formed the network of cities which became the Sumerian, Assyrian and Babylonian empires.
comparing apples with .... 
In Greece they also had city-states...... Athens, 
A polis consisted of an urban centre, often fortified and with a sacred centre built on a natural acropolis or harbour, which controlled a surrounding territory (chora) of land. The term polis has, therefore, been translated as ‘city-state’
Other cultures had a similar social and political structure, notably, the Babylonians, Etruscans and Phoenicians,
among the most important were Athens, Sparta, Corinth, Thebes, Syracuse, Aegina, Rhodes, Argos, Eretria, and Elis.
Abraham was looking forward to a 'city' - as described by Paul.  This refers to a government with a king which is a priest - like Melchizedek! 
Later cities: the function of the priests became separated from that of the king.... Most cities had large temples where priests fed and clothed the God of the city and tended to the "God" and people who came for predictions.  All were polytheists - so there were many shrines to the other Gods.

1.      The Jews from the 10 tribe were scattered ALL over the empire - many of those taken by the Syrian empire were put in Elam and the cities of the Medes....and the river Gozan. Look on a map - this is at the outskirts of the empire territory.     
The root cause of the ten tribe deportation is given in 2 Kings 18: 11,12  together with the names of the areas they were deported to. The root cause for Israel was the SAME reason for the exile of the Juda - disobedience to the law and the pollution of the land. They broke the covenant of Jehovah excessively with their deity worship.  NOT a whim of  Jehovah for them to have a change...of ruler 
Your 'theory' above - not true.    It must have taken some time to reach them in the far reaches of the empire!  The call went out to ALL of israel to return.
2.    617 BCE - Jehoiachin - The upper class of the population is taken to the Babylon - including the metal workers, mighty warriors, craftsmen, court officials princes, including Daniel and his 3 friends, Ezekiel and their families.... the numbers for the men are given in the scriptures I cited in my response above - the number of men as the numbers of the wives and children are not given.  I have already given you the proof that Ezekiel  (Ez 1)  visited a  community of the first group of exiles at the river Chebar......   Not all these people were settled in the city of Babylon itself and they were not in a position to hear any court gossip....too far away... look on your map where they were...(there were two more incursions by Nebuchadnezzar after this - most probably taking all the smaller cities around Jerusalem.) 
3. The poor people who were left behind under Zedekia and the prophet Jeremiah - together with a group of high officials - could have been spared being removed from the land BUT as you rightly said - they did not listen to Jeremiah/Jehovah. However!   The first group of exiles had already left for Babylon almost 10 years before - it was not the entire group that would have been spared the exile as you have implied in your previous answers.   
The temple of worship was destroyed and all the rest in the city were taken. Thousands who took refuge in Jerusalem during the 18 month siege (some Jewish sources say 30)  died from famine and sickness, war injuries, and the fire which destroyed the temple ( Lam 4:10
With their own hands compassionate women
    have cooked their own children

I remember reading that the Babylonians catapulted dead bodies,   which Jews had thrown over the wall (most probably swollen in the heat), they were projected back into the city - the conditions must have been absolutely devastating - especially for Jews who were not supposed to touch a dead body. The Talmud says that almost a million died....  I believe this is exaggerated but it gives one a good idea of the devastation - apart from those who died in other cities.
Zedekiah's sons and many, officials, priests etc. were put to death. Only 832 men survived Jerusalem with the remnants of their families. Jer 52:29 (In the 18th year of Nebuchadnezzar, 832 people were taken from Jerusalem).   Jerusalem and its land was definitely left desolate. 
Jer 9:11  11 “I will make Jerusalem a heap of ruins,
    a haunt of jackals;
and I will lay waste the towns of Judah
    so no one can live there.”
13...The Lord said, “It is because they have forsaken my law,
Jer 32: 43 - a wasteland without man and beast
Several archeologists confirm that archeological surveys confirm there was not a single known case where a town of Judah was continuously occupied because of the violence that was visited on the Judah.  City after city was ceased to be inhabited at this time - some never to be reoccupied. 
 
The above scriptures and events prove why the countryside was almost empty - all the deaths and the exile of those who survived - that hegemony was NOT the main reason for the exile but it was disobedience to Jehovah that led to the total devastation of their capital city and its land.
 
 

Already debunked.
AlanF

I appreciate Nana, Anna and Scholar quoting the relevant scriptures and thanks Allan Smith for some new ideas on the table. I liked your thoughts on the festivals because the entire history of the nation was centered on the celebration of the festivals (Sabbath Year included). Israel was a nation dedicated to Jehovah - they neglected it and went into exile - but the promise of Jehovah was that they would be repatriated back to the land so they can restart their pure worship to him and rebuild the temple. 
 
AlanF is too quick to "poo" other people’s thoughts but I see he makes a lot of wild hmm… “scholarly” statements for which he has no proof for either!  They just lived in cities??  LOL Get real AlanF...  it was not 2017 AD …..but 537 BCE.  By your comments I can see that you do not have any understanding of how the people lived.... 
Dear AllanF this is for you:
When one reads into the scriptures what you ‘want’ it is called speculation.  I quoted several scriptures referring to ‘70 years’ and you concluded it only refers to ‘hegemony’. 
Please look again at:-  Jeremiah 25:11 refers to the LAND which must be desolate for 70 years. “And this whole LAND shall be a desolation.”   
Most of the inhabitants were removed so there was no large scale planting and the land was not kept clean of wild animals.  When they went back to their land they had to clear it to start planting and get on with everyday life – as prophesied. It does not mean the land was barren of people but that  it was laid waste.
Isaih 1: Look! Jehovah is emptying the land* and making it desolate. He turns it upside down* and scatters its inhabitants.  2  It will be the same for everyone: The people as well as the priest,The servant and his master, The servant and her mistress,The buyer and the seller,The lender and the borrower,The creditor and the debtor.  3  The land will be completely emptied;It will be completely plundered, For Jehovah has spoken this word.  4  The land mourns; it is wasting away. The productive land withers; it is fading away. The prominent people of the land wither.  5  The land has been polluted by its inhabitants, For they have bypassed the laws,
 
Why is your reasoning that these scriptures ONLY refer to ‘hegemony’ faulty?
When in doubt, always go back to :- root cause:  what was the root cause for their exile? Definitely not because Jehovah had a whim to put them under foreign hegemony without a reason…. The reason was because of the law regarding the LAND which must lie fallow every 7th year; together with this, they were not obeying other laws…. and the land on which they were living, was defiled – according to scripture above. 
Jehovah required 70 years by the time of their exile. The number 70 is mentioned too many times to ignore.  If Jehovah uses numbers so many times then he meant to have his 70 years…. Jehovah’s consistency of action based on his word is what gave Daniel trust in this words and he discerned that the end of the 70 years were close. I agree with one of the other contributors on the forum that to give a month to 6 month leeway is acceptable (depending, from where one calculates the year) - it should be very close to 70 years. More discrepancy than this would be unacceptable – not because Jehovah made the error but because we are making an error somewhere.
From whatever angle one looks at this debate: from hegemony side, or the land (Jerusalem) being desolate, there is more than enough evidence for 537BCE.
Cyrus entered from the north when the Tigris river was lower (September) and the battle of Opis took place in October 539 BCE so he could get control of the Median wall. Nabonidus fled to Sippar.  Cyrus followed him to Sippar and so the hegemony was not ‘complete’ while Nabonidus was free. He later gave himself up in Babylon because he had no allies.  Cyrus went ahead and appointed his Satrap, Darius the Mede, and the administrators of the new government.  Then in, 538 BCE, when ALL Babylonia was in his control, Cyrus came back to assume the imperial title “King of Babylon, king of Sumer and Akkad, king of the four corners of the world"”  ….
All Babylonian kings were inaugurated ONLY in the temple of Marduk since the earliest of ancient times on New Year’s day – some of the Syrian kings were also inaugurated in this temple.  So it was on the following New Year that he took this title 538 BCE.
The Babylonian nation was so superstitious that they would not accept a ruler over the city/state if this festival had not been celebrated. Cyrus knew this; he was related to the Babylonian kings on the Median side. The Median King, Darius, was installed as his regent (Daniel’s vision talks of a two headed beast – the Median and Persian.)
Scholars accept Berossos - who is not really a reliable historian and living 300 years after Daniel but they reject the history of Daniel who was definitely there at the time.  Daniel used some ancient Akkadian words that were only in use in Babylon by highly educated administrators. (Nebuchadnezzar started the practice of rebuilding old temples, did archeology of these temples and kept the Arcadian language as a matter of nationalistic pride and tradition. ) Scholars will not take this into account but Bible students know this empire comprised two empires in one – they believe Daniel and his vision of Persia.
The situation was as follows: the nation of Babylon (very superstitious) hated Nabonidus, who was popular at the beginning of his reign, but popularity turned to hate when he built (and restored several) a temple to the moon god in Tema, oasis in Arabia, and left his son Belshazzar to rule in his place.
Nabonidus was absent so much in a period of ten years that he did not celebrate the NEW YEAR - which was sacrilege! -  It was the most important festival for the king and the nation on the calendar!! On the day of Akitu he had to renew his kingship by humbling himself in front of Marduk in front of all the people! The massive festival was 12 days long. Priests of Marduk taught that Marduk will punish the nation for the king’s deviance.
Cyrus was smart and did what was required – bowed to Marduk on the new year’s day and was loved by the people for taking his crown in this 12 day festival - a happy time for the people. He was seen as a great liberator. This is extremely significant  - if one knows the Babylonian mind and how they operated. This festival was in Nissan for 12 days. 538 BCE
Cyrus thereafter issued his Decree in 538 BCE for the return of the Jews. This date is corroborated all over the internet…..go check it out. 
 
So what “process” did this repatriation involve?
In 538 BCE: In the time of Cyrus and Nabonidus, the logistics were definitely NOT what they are today as Allen Smith pointed out but it fell on deaf ears. Yes, they had technology like the catapult, an excellent canal system (for water) for agriculture, the hanging gardens with its pumps etc. but logistics were time consuming due to transport constraints – not the world we know today...
Rushed communications were usually sent by couriers on horseback via a network of routes – other methods were slower.  Letters were dictated and inscribed and baked in Cuneiform and sealed and sent out to the 120 satraps mentioned by Ezra (evidence of 20 only came somewhat later).  Each Satrap would need a few weeks for the news to be spread to all Jewish enclaves. The territory was large and the 10 tribes were widely scattered during the Assyrian rule. The call went out to ALL of Israel not just the Jews (name Jew comes from Judah at the time).
The Jews then had to organize themselves: where to meet so they could move in a group together (a trek of  3-4 months around the desert – the same way Abraham came into the promised land) so they needed to prepare their logistics…. food, tents, protection, for the move with many animals which needed time to graze every day etc. Preparation is needed to take the most needed things, and extra carts made,  to establish a home on the other side. For the first large group of people to arrive in Jerusalem and start to work the LAND and prune desolate fruit trees, open up wells etc – could easily have taken a year. The LAND must not be fallow and must start to produce to break the desolate cycle.
This is the reason I accepted the date of 537 BCE many years ago.  I am not a scholar but an autodidact. One must account for human processes.  Number punching scholars are not prepared to do this.  Reasonableness about the lifestyle of the time; together with the confirmed historical dates, is the logical way to go.  In modern days – reasonableness and a thinking through of the process is one of the major requirements for logical evaluation when judging a case in court.
The date of 537BCE cannot be disproved because no one knows exactly how quickly the Jews moved to Jerusalem.  Those moved by Jehovah’s spirit could have been so excited that they organized themselves faster than we would expect. Reasonableness and logical thinking of the steps needed to start a new life in a neglected place, helps to make the right conclusion.
But if you are not reasonable then one makes wild statements about 1914, for example:  the scope of disasters in the 100 years before 1914. This has no substance and comes from a deep desire to claim that JWs are wrong about 1914. Whether by accident or not – the evidence on  ground zero proves that Jehovah helped the slave to understand this. Reputable historians that are scholars have said the 1914 was the year the world changed forever.
To watch these fights about 1914 by such early books as written in 1823 to me is silly (archeology was not properly established then).  Archeology started about 1801 when Napoleon went into Egypt…..and people made a connection between the pyramids and the bible (and by the way most bible lovers were fascinated with this for a century – it was part of the social talk of the era. 
So when you argue about these things it is a ploy away from the subject (but related) to discredit JWs early history….. If anyone looks back at the early history of any organization one can discredit it because we look at it with the knowledge we have at present…. which is not a fair and proper judgement because one should understand the ‘era’ they were living in to make this judgment. (I think they did pretty well if one thinks that they made many connections just on the knowledge from the Bible without archeology.) An awakening – but all the puzzle was not yet fitted……they did a good job with what they had….because they had a love for the bible and God.
At the time the early JWs wrote in all sincerity up to 130 years ago – they did not think that some ‘modern’ scholar would come a hundred years later and ‘nitpick’ every word to check out the ‘semantics’.  
The archeology available today has only come through the translation of thousands of tablets – especially the last 40 years…..  
 
Reign of Cyrus (538BCE when he was crowned king of all the earth):
Excerpt from Josephus: In the first year of the reign of Cyrus (1) which was the seventieth from the day that our people were removed out of their own land into Babylon, God commiserated the captivity and calamity of these poor people, according as he had foretold to them by Jeremiah the prophet, before the destruction of the city, that after they had served Nebuchadnezzar and his posterity, and after they had undergone that servitude seventy years, he would restore them again to the land of their fathers, and they should build their temple, and enjoy their ancient prosperity
 
Conditions during the captivity - ALLEN F has it wrong!
The boys from the ruling class were trained at the palace of Nebuchadnezzar.  The largest settlements were villages located along the Chebar River (which was an irrigation channel for agriculture).  The Jews (Juda) were allowed to live together in communities and they were allowed to farm and make all sorts of things to earn a living.  Some became rich…  They needed to keep their farming skills for their return…to work the land again.  They would have planted vegetables and feed for animals.
One can get almost 4 generations in 70 years – if they did not keep up their skills for farming their children will go back to Israel with no skills to sow etc. I see Jehovah’s hand in the circumstance that many of the Judeans were placed at the Chebar River and Ezekiel was there with them - if I remember correctly.
 
Jeremia encouraged the Jews to get on with life in captivity - Jer 29:4-11
4 Thus says the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel, to all who were carried away captive, whom I have caused to be carried away from Jerusalem to Babylon:
5 Build houses and dwell in them; plant gardens and eat their fruit.
6 Take wives and beget sons and daughters; and take wives for your sons and give your daughters to husbands, so that they may bear sons and daughters -- that you may be increased there, and not diminished.
7 And seek the peace of the city where I have caused you to be carried away captive, and pray to the LORD for it; for in its peace you will have peace.
8 For thus says the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel: Do not let your prophets and your diviners who are in your midst deceive you, nor listen to your dreams which you cause to be dreamed.
9 For they prophesy falsely to you in My name; I have not sent them, says the LORD.
10 For thus says the LORD: After seventy years are completed at Babylon, I will visit you and perform My good word toward you, and cause you to return to this place.
 
I have a peeve with academics:
(Now this is my peeve with many academics:  they just care about ‘dates’ and are totally disconnected to the practicalities of everyday life in the ‘period’ they research.                 
A good example (unrelated to this subject) is Western scholars - when they talk about Islam… claim that Mohammad never existed and the entire religious system was developed over a period of 200 years by other leaders….Why?  Because there are NO secular written references to him and NO secular dates - except the writings attributed to Mohammad by himself and his followers. 
They do not understand tribal and nomadic life. Other kingdoms in Arabia have king lists and histories but these tribes were not capable of writing an accurate historical biography immediately after Mohammad’s death.  In Mohammad’s case – the sword - was the most efficient way of spreading the faith – not writing.  Later, when scholars from Persia etc. was added to the fold – more writings and analytics appeared and many additional teachings from other faiths were added to the writings which already had  been plagiarized from many other religions).
Similar in this case – there are processes at stake we no-one can disprove or prove so we accept the most logical - which also has living evidence on ground zero.

Such a wild statement with no proof!  I speak to many atheists - most of them here in Sweden.... ... Their ideas of religion is what they learnt in Babylon the Great and most have not read the Bible.  Bible education has not been allowed here for 3 generations in the schools in Sweden but in England (many of these privileged ones who scoff at God) attended private Catholic/Anglican schools.
Most do of them do not know their history either (or ignore the facts) - for example - that Darwinism not only inspired the eugenics of Hitler - (6 million dead)  but that in a very short time after Darwin (in a matter of 50 years after 1914) the most people were killed in the entire history of the world - much more than any prior blood thirsty ruler or Christianity could do.    Russian revolution 1917 (atheist government) between 20 to 40 million people.  Mau se Tung(atheist government) - up to 100 million dead; Pol pot in Cambodia.... shall I go on - the list of genocides in the 20th century is astounding! 
Most of these 'high priests of this new religion called atheism' get their audiences from people who think they are smart but are not really analytical thinkers.
By the way I have read Hawkins but not a Dawkins.  I watched many of Dawkins' stupid stuff on YouTube and gave some comments but stopped watching when he said that “humans were seeded by aliens” without giving a scientific reason…..that clinched it for me.... 
Not much brains there just one nasty fellow and made a lot of money while doing it.  He does not care for science or truth.    I like to talk with atheists who really are in search of truth or care about science….and the world.  Some of them are as mocking and arrogant as AllanF….  

It is kinda funny how some who use John 1:1 and claim Jesus is God has no idea of the biblical, historical and scriptural context via manuscripts.
That being said, it is correctly translated to "a god" or "was a god", and such as been stated waaaaaaaay before Jehovah's Witnesses/Bible Students have been established.
I will not go into detail because when I tend to explain something, I go full on context, and I believe the Jehovah's Witnesses are in the write for correcting the wording in that text.
Other variations of rendering John 1:1 also exist (simple wiki search):
You see here most tend to go with "a god" or "was a god", in addition, ancient Greek differs from modern Greek. In ancient times, they rarely use uppercase letters.
 
NOTE: some translations tend to use Divine or divine, Deity or deity, vice versa. what is 100% true regardless of translation, "The Word was With God". Another thing to add, Jesus can't be God the Father because
A::: Shema Yisrael, something that Jesus had to do since he was a Jew born in the law and he included this in prayer to God
and
B::: When Jesus was a Baby, Zechariah thanked God, even giving God praise in Luke 1:68, 69, he began to speak due to Holy Spirit bestowed upon him for Zechariah spoke to God pretty much about Lord Jesus who was still in the womb of Mary. Jesus is refereed to as the Horn of Salvation, in English, The Savior (Born Powerful Savior).
Sahidic Coptic to English - In the beginning existed the word and the word existed with the god and a god was the word
14th century: "In the beginning was the word, and the word was at God, and God was the word" – Wycliffe's Bible (translated from the 4th-century Latin Vulgate)
1808: "and the Word was a god" – Thomas Belsham The New Testament, in an Improved Version, Upon the Basis of Archbishop Newcome’s New Translation: With a Corrected Text, London.
1822: "and the Word was a god" – The New Testament in Greek and English (A. Kneeland, 1822.)
1829: "and the Word was a god" – The Monotessaron; or, The Gospel History According to the Four Evangelists (J. S. Thompson, 1829)
1863: "and the Word was a god" – A Literal Translation of the New Testament (Herman Heinfetter [Pseudonym of Frederick Parker], 1863)
1864: "the LOGOS was God, This was in the Beginning with God" – A New Emphatic Version (right hand column)
1864: "and a god was the Word" – The Emphatic Diaglott by Benjamin Wilson, New York and London (left hand column interlinear reading)
1867: "In the beginning was the gospel preached through the Son. And the gospel was the word, and the word was with the Son, and the Son was with God, and the Son was of God" – The Joseph Smith Translation of the Bible
1879: "and the Word was a god" – Das Evangelium nach Johannes (J. Becker, 1979)
1885: "and the Word was a god" – Concise Commentary on The Holy Bible (R. Young, 1885)
1911: "and the Word was a god" – The Coptic Version of the N.T. (G. W. Horner, 1911)
1935: "and the Word was divine" – The Bible: An American Translation, by John M. P. Smith and Edgar J. Goodspeed, Chicago
1955: "so the Word was divine" – The Authentic New Testament, by Hugh J. Schonfield, Aberdeen.
1956: "In the beginning the Word was existing. And the Word was in fellowship with God the Father. And the Word was as to His essence absolute deity" – The Wuest Expanded Translation[16]
1958: "and the Word was a god" – The New Testament of Our Lord and Saviour Jesus Anointed" (J. L. Tomanec, 1958);
1962, 1979: "'the word was God.' Or, more literally, 'God was the word.'" – The Four Gospels and the Revelation (R. Lattimore, 1979)
1966, 2001: "...and he was the same as God" – The Good News Bible
1970, 1989: "...and what God was, the Word was" – The Revised English Bible 1975 "and a god (or, of a divine kind) was the Word" – Das Evangelium nach Johnnes, by Siegfried Schulz, Göttingen, Germany
1975: "and the Word was a god" – Das Evangelium nach Johannes (S. Schulz, 1975);
1978: "and godlike sort was the Logos" – Das Evangelium nach Johannes, by Johannes Schneider, Berlin
1993: "The Word was first, the Word present to God, God present to the Word. The Word was God, in readiness for God from day one." — The Message, by Eugene H. Peterson.[17]
 
I speak to defend the scriptures, and that is what I intend to do.

We have clear instructions on how elders must be chosen - no females.  So if an anointed were on earth now in human form (before obtaining her heavenly calling where there will be no biological females - should they then serve as elders - now? 
 

allensmith28
Alan F would have us believe that the six month interval from Nisan, 538 BCE month 1 until Tishri, 538 BCE, month 7 according to his tabulation would be of sufficient time for the Jews to return home with a four-month journey inclusive. Now if ones' imagination cannot accommodate such a hypothesis then it must also be considered that the Jews were prior to Month 1 would have been in an anticipatory or preparatory frame of mind with some preparations already in hand. Now, this of course is an interesting scenario but if Alan F demands such an indulgence proving 538 BCE for the Return then how is it the case that he refuses one to believe or to concede the possibility that the Jews could have more easily returned the following year in 537 BE. 
The 538 BCE scenario perhaps first developed by Jeffro on his colourful website then later copied by Alan F is ridiculous, stupid and impossible unless Cyrus had the Internet, publish, circulate by email to all Jews waiting at the door with their Go- bags  packed  waiting for the air-conditioned coach to take them to the airport where they could travel cattle class by jet travel from Babylon to Jerusalem in a matter of a couple of hours and days.
Frankly, this scenario is garbage. The very fact that COJ remains silent or indifferent on this matter is quite telling for COJ is their hero, their Poppa and these two characters will simply whatever nonsense without any evidence. There is simply no evidence for the many assumptions Alan F and Jeffro make such as:
1. Cyrus issued his Decree in Month 1, 538 BCE
2. That the Jews arrived in Judah in Month 6, 538 BCE
This is just for starters.
scholar JW emeritus

Jesus is not yet a "Husband"...
His wedding is in the future.

allensmith28
Alan F first raised his hypothesis on the JWD forum about August 2006 presented with a tabulation of events from Tishri, 539 BCE to Iyyar, 536 BCE. This tabulation would cover those events around the return of the Jews. He states the following:
1. Cyrus issued his Decree in his 1st year, Nisan 538 BCE counting from Month 1
2. The Jews arrived in Judah in Month 6 in Cyrus' 1st year, Elul, 538 BCE
3. The Jews are settled in their cities in Month 7, in Cyrus', Tishri, 538 BCE
What this shows that within a period of 6 full months all of the events as described in Ezra 1:1-3:1 which of course is plain and utter nonsense. Alan F has already admitted that the journey would have taken at a minimum, 4 months so one can that this is simply a 'contrivance' designed to mislead the reader.
Now, COJ is no fool and he has had plenty of time to deal with this issue and even now he could easily post an ADDENDUM in support of Alan F's hypothesis but to date Jonsson has simply confined this issue to a footnote with two scholarly references and does not share Alan's dogmatism that 538 BCE is the only possible date for the Return or wording thus similar.
scholar JW emeritus

See how insulting this fellow is. It will be his undoing, most likely.
The fact that he worships the Dawkins-Harris-Hitchens Trinity makes it even more interesting.
Quick, someone find me a scripture of how a contemptuous person comes to ruin.

Both Jeffro and I have explained all this in great detail. The fact that you don't read it at all, or that you don't seem to retain what you read, does not change that.
As I've explained above and in the link I've given a dozen times, there were up to nearly six months for the preparation and the journey from Nisan 538 BCE. The journey was about four months, assuming that other biblical references to a similar journey can be used. That leaves nearly two months for preparation. And that assumes that the Jews were unaware of Cyrus' general practice of releasing captives, which they would have known of since Cyrus had been marching around the Near East for quite a few years. So they could have had a preparation time of up to seven months.
What do you think could not be accomplished in two to seven months?
Let's see that razor sharp Watch Tower trained brain in action!
AlanF

Still no evidence presented. Just bald assertions.
And of course, no one presented even one iotum of argumentation against what I posted above.
You've learned well from Mommy Watch Tower.
AlanF

GASP! Not you, too??! It wasn't because you made light of anyone, was it? hehehehe :))))))
yeah, Alan is a bit of a hothead at times - no one would dispute that. But when he is on, he is on, and his input is both unique and valuable.
I can join he and Nana to form a WNM Trinity for the infamous thread I was put in charge of where I was apparently expected to play nice with apostates and declined to do it and so the whole thread disappeared.
Having said this, and as much as I rib @The Librarian (the old hen), she has a tough job, I think does she the best she can.  I would vacate - as I did on one other site - if people here were as steadfastly nasty as they were there. She prevents that from happening, so if I have to take a shot now and again, I'll go along with her wishes until I can't - and I doubt that situation will arise.
I think a lot of ones here are unstable, and a few are downright crazy. I do not exclude myself from this statement - I am not without issues. They must be cut some slack. But to carry on too much about rebukes given is to be the same as those who bitch endlessly about the GB. Somebody has to drive. She has earned her seat. It is not for me to change her, but to go elsewhere if we absolutely can't get along. That is why I try to get along.

I don't even know what "Grammerly" is.
I am of course going to look it up ....
I find it embarrassing not to know everything.

@AnnaWell I know you probably mean this: "I am not thinking this is a sinister or underhanded way to over assert authority," but when you then say this: "insinuating our prime motive for obedience is to survive Armageddon", to use the word insinuating is a bit confusing to me in view of it's meaning. I definitely do not think the GB are making such an insinuation which would sound remarkably similar to the one made at Job 2:4. And I am sure you do not think that either.
You have raised a lot of logistical questions here regarding Armageddon survival strategies, but my feeling is that behavioural strategies are what are required more than anything at this time. The logistical stuff comes later and I am sure the GB will know how to delegate in this area according to local need. And I don't think one has to have a particularly sophisticated view of things in order to work that out.
Coincidentally, a couple of days ago some were discussing this very matter regarding Is. 26:20, around the role of Kingdom Halls in providing protection. Some rather narrow-minded views were expressed, but one older sister just casually remarked, "well it can't be about literally hiding in Kingdom Halls because they haven't got any in Russia, and anyway by that time they might be shut down all over the place" Everybody agreed that whatever means of protection Jehovah will provide, we'll have to be obedient to his instructions then, just like we are now, and any strangeness about those instructions will probably be in comparison to what those who don't trust Jehovah are doing at the time. (Compare 1Cor.1:25: "Because a foolish thing of God is wiser than men"). Wonder what Egyptians would have thought about what the Israelites were doing with sheep's blood on the night of the Passover, (if any were aware)? Ex.12:7.
By behavioural instructions that seem strange, I mean ones based on, for example, Matt 5:29 "Do not resist the one who is wicked, but whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other also to him." This is the kind of "strange " instruction that is going to lead to salvation, not tenting out in what's left of the Kingdom Hall car park! Or skulking through the countryside with grab-bags full of beef jerky, wind up torches, and bottles of water! (Although, who knows?).
Rest assured, "Jehovah knows how to rescue people of godly devotion out of trial, " 2Pet.2:9. It's working now through our obedience to the advice and counsel we receive. We have no reason to believe it will not continue.

Alan F
Well if you now correctly argue that the Jews' captivity expired after 539 BCE in 538 BCE then how can you possibly argue that the seventy years which was the nominated period of captivity-exile-servitude could possibly end in 539 BCE? That does not make any sense at all.
You accuse me of misrepresentation and to create a straw man in the pursuit thereof and that I am unchristian. This is a bit rich coming from a person who has professed to be a unbeliever or am I misrepresenting your personal views on God, Jesus and the Bible?
Actually No! The date 537 BCE is the better candidate.
 
It is nice to agree on something. Your claim that Ezra and Josephus cannot support 537 BCE is simply your opinion but if you have evidence to the contrary. I am not interested in your website as I have read it before years ago and it lacks scholarship. So, if you wish to persevere with this matter then prepare an academic paper, properly formatted to COJ for his opinion and to me for my examination and I will give you feedback and possibly an academic grade if you behave yourself. You may choose its length and as you have already a University Degree I expect rigour from you.
Jeremiah linked the land paying off its sabbaths with the Jewish nation's servitude to Babylon thus constituting a single historic period of seventy years. When reading this texts along with the others by Ezra, Daniel and Zechariah one can only conclude that the seventy years can only be one of servitude-exile-desolation. No other interpretation can fit the biblical narrative, it is as simple as that. To argue that there was Babylonian supremacy in 609 BCE is historical revisionism at best, I believe that no academic study of that Late Judean Period would support such a view and besides that the date 609 BCE is simply to 'fuzzy' and that is why COJ also argued that 605 BCE was an alternative candidate for the beginning of the seventy years. The date 587BCE is also problematic as you well know for most leading scholars have always preferred 586 BCE so this too is rather 'fuzzy'. The date 607 BCE takes the razor to both dates for it reminds one of 'Ockham's razor'.
Jer. 29:10 simply addresses those previous exiles who take as part of the first deportation and had to remain in Babylon until the seventy years had expired.Further, it recognized Babylonian supremacy particularly over Judah and its nation having to serve Babylon seventy years. Jeremiah's description of the seventy years applied to Judah alone unless otherwise specified as with the case of Tyre who had to serve Babylon for a similar period. The expression 'these nations' is subject to interpretation according to Commentators and a number of plausible have been offered but in any event commensurate with the events that befell Judah at that time other nations were in for judgement as prophesied in Jer. 25:15-38. We cannot say with any certainty the chronology for these other nations as we can in the case of Judah and Judah alone.
Yes, I agree with you that servitude is not the same as captivity but the simple facts are is that the nation was to be brought into servitude and transported from their homeland to a foreign country which in anyone's language means Exile. So with the seventy years as foretold by the Prophets the seventy years would be one of servitude/captivity and Exile.
T
 
here is nothing ambiguous about Daniel's observation for it was a fitting prelude to his prayer to Jehovah and I am quite sure that Jehovah God and the angel that answered his prayer did not find any ambiguity in Daniel for he was a 'straightshooter'.
Jer. 25;11 describes two events both of which were to be fulfilled within that seventy period namely that the land would be desolate in harmony with the previous description in vss.9-10 and the nation's servitude to Babylon. the surrounding nations would also be caught up in the forthcoming maelstrom as foretold and later described in the OAN. It cannot be said that Judah was not the primary target for Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Jeremiah, Daniel who were all contemporaries to those events had Judah in sight especially with a description of a totally devastated land without an inhabitant and Exile in Babylon.
That is not my intention for this chapter speaks for itself, it details events associated with the reigns of Jehoiakim and Zedekiah namely the impending destruction and their servitude to Babylon. Its contents harmonize with our view of Late Judean history, the end of the Monarchy and our Chronology.
The reader can consult Josephus who in several places viewed the seventy years are running between the Fall and the Return so cannot be debunked. You are yet to prove with sound scholarship that Ezra and Josephus disproves 537 BCE.
scholar JW emeritus
 
 
 
 

Scholar JW Pretendus wrote:
:: The Watch Tower Society's pivotal date for its 1914 chronology is 537 BCE, which it bases on speculation that there were about two years between the fall of Babylon in 539 BCE and the return of some Jewish exiles to Judah in 537 BCE. Yet there is no proof of this speculation, and one will find only speculation in Watch Tower publications. Further, the available evidence is that the Jews returned to Judah in 538 BCE, thus wiping out Watch Tower chronology in one fell swoop.
:: The claim that the prophet Jeremiah predicted exactly 70 years of desolation of Judah is demonstrably false, using the Bible alone. What Jeremiah predicted was 70 years of Babylonian hegemony over the Near East. Desolation of Judah was to occur only if the Jews refused to bow to Babylonian rule   
I'm perfectly well aware of the Watch Tower Society's claims, but I'm talking about reality: the reality is that 1914 must be maintained at all costs, and 1914 is based on these dates: return of the Jews -- back 70 years -- fall of Jerusalem -- forward 2,520 years -- 1914. The date of Babylon's fall (539) is undisputed. The date of the return of the Jews is undetermined in the scholarly community but Watch Tower chronology is fundamentally based on it being 537. Therefore it is the real, practical pivotal date.
Still lying. I and others have pointed out a number of sources to you. That you continue to ignore them proves your scholastic dishonesty.
Lying still more. I've given you a brief reference ( https://ad1914.com/category/alan-feuerbacher/ ), and you've read and ignored far more extensive writeups.
Wrong. Jer. 25 and 27 clearly define the 70 years as a period of Babylonian supremacy over all the nations in the Near East. Whether desolation of a nation occurred was contingent on how it reacted to Babylon's supremacy.
A flat out lie. As I pointed out, and you have steadfastly ignored, Jer. 27 shows that you're lying:
<< 8 “‘“‘If any nation or kingdom refuses to serve King Nebuchadnezzar of Babylon and refuses to put its neck under the yoke of the king of Babylon, I will punish that nation with the sword, with famine, and with pestilence,’ declares Jehovah, ‘until I have finished them off by his hand.’ 9 “‘“‘Therefore, do not listen to your prophets, your diviners, your dreamers, your magicians, and your sorcerers, who are saying to you: “You will not serve the king of Babylon.” 10 For they are prophesying lies to you, so that you will be taken far away from your land and I will disperse you and you will perish. 11 “‘“‘But the nation that brings its neck under the yoke of the king of Babylon and serves him, I will allow to remain on its land,’ declares Jehovah, ‘to cultivate it and dwell in it.’”’” >>
You know you're lying because these scriptures have been pointed out to you dozens of times over the years.
If the outcome was definitely to be desolation, then there was no contingency. Get your story straight.
:: Since Russell's day, the Watch Tower Society used 536 BCE as the pivotal date for its chronology, claiming that Babylon was destroyed and the desolation of Judah ended then. Thus they used 606 BCE as the beginning date for "the Gentile Times". In the 1940s and 1950s they changed a number of dates. Babylon's fall occurred in 536, then 537, then 538 and finally 539 BCE. The desolation of Jerusalem ended in 536, then 537 BCE. The "times of the Gentiles" began in 606, then 607 BCE. Always the goal was to maintain the 1914 date
 
As I said above: the whole focus of Watch Tower efforts has been to maintain the 1914 date.
The difference is that the Watch Tower Society has always claimed that its chronology is divinely directed, and has treated critics as if they were heretics. Scholars don't do that.
:: More unevidenced gobble-de-goop. As I pointed out some 12 years ago, Josephus made statements about the beginning of the building of the temple in 537 BCE that, in conjunction with Ezra, prove that the Jews did not return to Judah in 537 but in 538 BCE. Need I refer you back to the old JWD threads where your claims were demolished
Straw man. Josephus did not use the modern Gregorian calendar since it did not exist, nor the Julian calendar. He used some form of the Jewish calendar, as anyone can see by reading his works.
Very little interpretation is needed. Ezra 3:8, 10 states that in the 2nd month of the 2nd year of the return of the Jews to Judah, the temple's foundations were laid. Since Ezra is clear that the Jews returned in the 7th month (Tishri of 538 or 537), the 2nd month of the next year must necessarily be Iyyar of 537 or 536. The Watch Tower Society claims 536, based on Ezra's statements.
Understanding Josephus' statement that "in the second year of the reign of Cyrus [the temple’s] foundations were laid" requires little interpretation. Whether that 2nd year is in a Nisan or Tishri calendar makes no difference to the final result -- the temple foundation was laid in Iyyar of 537, requiring the return of the Jews in 538.
Now, you can deal with actual details for once, or resort to your usual meaningless generalities and gobble-de-goop, as you do here:
Surely a competent scholar such as yourself could easily point out where Josephus and Ezra combined are wrong, thus saving us all a lot of trouble. But you can't, not now and not a decade ago. Thus you'll just bluster and spew gobble-de-goop.
Readers with a bit of scholastic honesty will read my linked article, analyze the evidence, and come to their own conclusions. But most of them already know that my argument is correct, and that you cannot refute it.
Irrelevant, but I'll answer anyway: Josephus mentioned the 70 years four times. In the earliest three instances he said that Judah was desolated for 70 years, but a good deal of evidence shows that he was merely repeating the current popular legend. But in the last instance Josephus referenced material from an earlier Babylonian writer, set down various dates, and showed why the temple was desolated for fifty -- not seventy -- years. This latter material is consistent with most other historical material.
But you already know all this, so your bringing it up is a red herring and another instance of your scholastic dishonesty.
     
:: Since no definitive evidence is presented in any Watch Tower publications, the words "likely", "evidently", "doubtless", etc. clearly prove speculation
More gross lying. The Watch Tower Society is so convinced that these speculations are divinely inspired that it actually declares anyone who disagrees an apostate from God, declares them wicked, and disfellowships them. That is NOT intellectual honesty but intellectual terrorism.
Furthermore, only in a handful of instances does the Society admit that its 537 date is speculative. In most cases, the date is stated or implied to be definitively established, thus definitively establishing a base for the 1914 calculation. The Watch Tower Society is lying about this. Like mother, like son.
     
:: Wrong. There are NO historical sources that are well established regarding 537 as you claim. The proof is easy: you cannot provide any
As I said: you cannot cite any historical sources to support your claim. You lose.
     
:: Wrong again. Ezra and Josephus together prove that 537 is impossible, and that 538 BCE is almost certainly the date. See https://ad1914.com/category/alan-feuerbacher/ for a brief discussion
Because I'm the first one to have written about it, so far as I know.
Already done. Read the material at the link I provided.
You disagree with it? Then argue your case. Otherwise you're just blowing wind, as all readers can see.
COJ was not aware of this argument until after he published the last edition of GTR.
 
:: Wrong again. Most refuse to speculate, but a few offer 537 -- always without solid evidence -- and an equal number of others offer 538, usually without much evidence.
LOL! The Watch Tower Society and you are thoroughly dogmatic about your fake 537 date and about a host of other chronological matters. Such a gross hypocrite!
     
:: It certainly does fit the evidence, the only actual evidence being given by the combined testimony of Ezra and Josephus, as the above link shows.
Read my linked essay.
     
:: Your usual unevidenced claims. As Christopher Hitchens observed, that which is set forth without evidence can be dismissed without evidence. Except that I and others have provided mountains of evidence against Watch Tower Chronology.
I've read Lipschits' book. It says nothing to support Watch Tower traditions.
Readers should note that "scholar JW" normally cites no scriptures or scholarly souces. Rather, he resorts to bald assertions and statements of opinion without presenting actual evidence.
AlanF

Scholar JW Pretendus wrote:
:: Either you cannot read, or you're a hopeless liar. Read again what I said:
:::: I have always explained exactly what Brown meant by "connecting" them. And that connection is not what the Society implied in the Proclaimers book (p. 134), which is that Brown equated the two time periods. The implication is clear from the arguments presented in the Proclaimers book
You continue with your gross dishonesty. You refuse to acknowledge that what I said was correct. You refuse to admit that the Watch Tower Society's words were not meant in some vague way, where "connect" has no specific meaning, but were meant to convey to the reader that Brown equated the "seven times" with the "Gentile Times".
This is actually a very good illustration of how the Watch Tower Society dishonestly uses language. It uses ambiguous language to convey a clear meaning to naive readers, while actually saying something non-committal or even opposite. That way, when called out on a false statement, they can claim, "well, we didn't actually say blah blah blah".
Still not defining exactly what "connection" means in the offending Proclaimers book statement.
     
:: Brown "connects" the two periods vaguely at 1917, and not even directly but through an intermediate 75 lunar year period at the end of the "Gentile Times". The "seven times" were 2,520 solar years beginning in 604 BCE and ending in 1917 CE. The "Gentile Times" of the "Mohameddan Imposture" began in 622 CE with Mohamed's flight to Mecca, and ended in 1844 CE. From 1844 to 1917 is 75 lunar (Mohameddan) years.
:: Again the point is that the Proclaimers book strongly implies that Brown equated the two periods, whereas he only said that they were somewhat related or vaguely connected. Why else would the author italicize the statement
Continuing to try to pull the wool over readers' eyes.
Once again, in context, the Proclaimers book was expounding on the "seven times" and the "Gentile Times". Almost all readers already know that Watch Tower tradition is that the two periods are the same. The whole section is titled "End of the Gentile Times". Brown set forth complicated expositions on these two time periods, almost all of which would be unknown to almost all readers. The Proclaimers book gives no indication about these expositions. Therefore, in context, when the book says that Brown "connected" these periods, the reader is meant to understand that Brown "equated" the periods -- not that he left his readers with some vague, unexplained "connection".
     
::: The Proclaimers book on p.134 simply stated the fact of the connection between the two time periods contra Jonsson who had asserted the contrary.
:: No he didn't. Cite your sources if you disagree
It's astonishing how dishonest you can be when you put your mind to it.
Jonsson's overall exposition is on how the notion of the "Gentile times" came to be, and how various expositors came to calculate a "seven times" period of 2,520 years and to equate that period with the "Gentile times". In that context Jonsson wrote: "The first expositor known to have arrived at a period of 2,520 years was John Aquila Brown in 1823. He did not associate this period with the Gentile times of Luke 21:24, however; to him the Gentile times were a period of 1,260 lunar years, corresponding to 1,242 Julian years." Note the word "associate". That's another vague word that often takes on a clear meaning only in context. In this context it clearly means "equate", because Jonsson explicitly states that Brown viewed the 2,520 years as different from the 1,260 lunar years of the "Gentile times". Indeed, on page 22 Jonsson wrote: "The 2,520 years were soon identified by other expositors with the "Gentile times" of Luke 21:24." Obviously, "identified" here means "equated". Therefore, "associate" in this overall context also means "equate". So Jonsson was correct, and it's quite obvious that, if the author of the Proclaimers book read Jonsson's book (very unlikely), he misunderstood it.
One is still left wondering why the Proclaimers book's author bothered to italicize his statement. There is no reasonable explanation other than that he wanted to contradict someone else.
:: the Society strongly implied -- in context -- an equation
I happen to have excellent reading comprehension, and am not prone to misinterpreting subtle cues in Watch Tower literature. Once again, the overall context of the Proclaimers book here is how the "seven times" came to be equated with the "Gentile Times". With that context in mind, the statement that Brown "did connect these 'seven times' with the Gentile Times" clearly implies that Brown equated the two periods. This is especially so because the book gives no information about how the periods were "connected" apart from the implication that they were equated.
     
:: Let's see if you can quote Brown and make your above statements specific. No one will be holding their breath
How about you quote them and then explain how each sentence supports your claim.
So far you're batting zero, as I said you would.
     
AlanF

Scholar JW Pretendus wrote:
:: Who did the Jews become captive to and servants of? To Nebuchadnezzar and his sons. Until when were they captive? Until the kingdom of Persia began to reign in place of the kingdom of Babylon. In what year was that? In 539 BCE. Therefore the captivity of the Jews to Nebuchadnezzar and his sons ended in 539 BCE -- not in 537 BCE as the Watch Tower Society claims. What fulfilled "Jehovah’s word spoken by Jeremiah"? The ending of the Jews' captivity by their being released by the newly reigning kingdom of Persia . . .   
I did not say they were. I've said consistently that a Jewish remnant left Babylon in early 538 BCE. I've said consistently that the Jews as a whole were no longer captive to "Nebuchadnezzar and his sons" after Babylon was overthrown simply because the Babylonian rulers were no longer in power and therefore could hold no captives.
For many years, Neil, your main tactic of argumentation has been to create straw men by misrepresenting what your oponents say. You're still at it. So unchristian!
538, actually.
So we agree on that. But the declaration of release was made in early (Nisan) 538 BCE, likely in conjunction with ceremonies connected with the beginning of Cyrus' first full regnal year (not his accession year, which began in late 539 shortly after his armies conquered Babylon). Since Ezra and Josephus together provide the only complete testimony (see https://ad1914.com/category/alan-feuerbacher/ ) on when rebuilding of the temple began (537 BCE), 537 is not possible for the return of the Jews to Judah, because temple rebuilding would have to have begun in 536 BCE, thus contradicting both Ezra and Josephus.
:: Also note that Jeremiah prophesied nothing about the land paying off sabbaths, so "Jehovah’s word spoken by Jeremiah" had nothing to do with the paying off of sabbaths. Nor does the passage say that the paying of sabbaths ended when the 70 years ended. It merely says that during the 70 years the land would be paying sabbaths. Since various sources prove that the 70 years were a time of Babylonian supremacy over the Near East, and they most likely began in 609 BCE when Babylon overthrew the last remnants of the Assyrian empire, and they most certainly ended with Babylon's overthrow in 539 BCE, and Jerusalem was overthrown in 587 BCE, the sabbaths were certainly being paid during that time of Babylonian supremacy.
You just proved my point: Jeremiah nowhere makes such a prophecy.
If you disagree, then cite the appropriate passage.
More unevidenced gobble-de-goop. You still can't cite the Bible for evidence.
:: According to this rendering, all that Daniel said was that 70 years must pass before the desolations of Jerusalem would end, not that the end of the desolations would coincide with the end of the 70 years
Wrong. What Daniel says is ambiguous, as I have carefully explained.
Pure speculation and a fine example of circular argumentation. Far more likely, Daniel had already observed the fall of Babylon, and therefore concluded that the 70 years of Babylonian supremacy had ended, based on Jer. 25:11, 12: "'... and these nations will have to serve the king of Babylon for 70 years. But when 70 years have been fulfilled, I will call to account the king of Babylon and that nation for their error,' declares Jehovah." Since Jehovah had clearly called to account the king of Babylon by removing him (Nabonidus) from power and killing his viceroy (and probably son, Belshazzar) Daniel could only conclude that the 70 years had ended.
:: This passage explicitly proves what I have said: the 70 years refer to Babylonian supremacy, not to the captivity of the Jews as a whole or the desolation of Jerusalem.
It does more than that. In conjunction with Jer. 25 and 27, it defines the 70 years as a period defined by Babylonian supremacy over the entire Near East, not merely supremacy over Judah or the captivity of the Jews. The latter was a minor event in Babylon's history.
     
:: Who are "these nations" that were to serve the king of Babylon for 70 years? The context of Jer. 25 is clear: the Jews and the nations round about. During what time period did they serve? From the beginning of Babylon's rule over the Near East in 609 BCE to its end in 539 when the Persian empire overthrew it.
:: Note that servitude is not the same as captivity. Jeremiah implored the Jews not to rebel against Babylon. If they did not, Jehovah would allow them to remain on their land during the 70 years of Babylonian supremacy. -- Jer. 27:4-11 They rebelled, and so were punished with captivity   
It does, but it mainly describes the 70 years as a period of servitude of Judah and all nations round about to Babylon. Jer. 25:8-11:
<< . . . I will bring them against this land and against its inhabitants and against all these surrounding nations . . . and these nations will have to serve the king of Babylon for 70 years. >>
Judah is not the primary focus; "all these surrounding nations" are a far bigger target.
Exactly. But just as many of them capitulated to Babylon and were not made captive or desolate, so did Judah have the opportunity (Jer. 27) but rejected it, and suffered the consequences.
Why do you continue to ignore Jeremiah 27?
Yes, of Judah and the surrounding nations.
Wrong.
Totally wrong. Keeping on repeating nonsense that was debunked 40 years ago does not make it true.
And of course, Josephus and Ezra prove that a return in 537 is impossible.
AlanF

Nana Fofana
Yes, this outlines for the first time within scholarship sound methodology relating to the determination of a precise date for the return of the Jewish Exiles however 538 is an unlikely candidate for the reasons we have explained as to the journey's length and time of travel amongst other unknown specifics which would make 537 BCE the most likely candidate.
scholar JW

Alan F
No! The Jewish captives were not released in 539 BCE but remained captive in Babylon until released by Cyrus in 537 BCE. This fact is proven by 2 Chronicles 36:22-23 wherein Jehovah declared that it was in the 'first year of Cyrus the Persian that the captives would be released and his 'first year' was 538/537BCE.
According to the Chronicler vs.21 clearly quotes Jeremiah's prophecy about the 'land paying off its sabbaths' which was a requisite component of the 'seventy years' period as the land had to remain desolate for 70 years as stated. In order for the land to repay its sabbaths it had to remain infertile, desolate for a fixed pre-determined period of time -seventy years. Nothing of any historical consequence occurred in 609 BCE as Babylon had by that time reached at any stage of political hegemony as Egypt remained the dominant player at that time in the region. The seventy years could not have begun in 609 BCE for the simple reason there was no suitable event that would warrant the status of a terminus a quo. 
Daniel in ch.9 vs.2 simply affirms the ongoing fulfilment of the seventy years as a period of desolation of both Jerusalem and Judah. He made this observation during the 'first year of Darius' which began after the Fall of Babylon in 539 BCE proving that even at that late hour the 'seventy years' had not then expired.
Jeremiah 29:10 simply affirms the fact that the seventy years was a period of Babylonian supremacy over the Jewish nation and its land as a period of servitude to Babylon whilst exiled in or at Babylon.
Jeremiah 25:11 describes the seventy years as a period of servitude of the Jewish nation whilst the land was desolate. During this period other surrounding nations roundabout would also experience servitude, brought under Babylonian domination as in the case of Tyre, Egypt and others.
All of the 'seventy year' textual corpus proves that the 'seventy years was a definite historic period of servitude to Babylon, an exile in Babylon with a desolated land running from the Fall in 607 BCE until the Return in 537 BCE which harmonizes well with the many accounts of the Jewish historian, Josephus.
scholar JW

Here is the Scripture that explains what am saying in my last post:
Colossians 1:13-16
13 He [Jehovah] rescued us from the authority of the darkness [Death] and transferred us into the kingdom of his beloved Son [Jesus], 14 by means of whom we have our release by ransom, the forgiveness of our sins. 15 He [Jesus] is the image of the invisible God [Jehovah], [Jesus is] the firstborn of all creation; 16 because by means of him [Jesus] all other things were created in the heavens and on the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All other things have been created through him [Jesus] and for him [Jesus].

I was talking about contributors who believe that the anointed will come back in the flesh to live on earth after they have already received their heavenly calling.  I was NOT talking about the anointed on earth today who have not yet been given a heavenly body.
Jesus did not come back in the flesh and ‘live’ amongst the people on earth did he?   He came back for only 50 days before he went back to his father.
 
I think they do a pretty good job of the training work they are doing in all the earth.  It is hard to manage so many different societies with so many different histories, previous religions and cultures and maintain functioning unity and harmony. How would you have managed it? 
I see you call it rules….  Well, to manage such a large family and keep out those who foment false teachings and divisions – there should be guidelines.  One shoe cannot fit all situations and therefore a body of elders should use their own combined discretion in situations where there are no guidelines. But there should be some form of uniformity in all the earth. It is not a perfect system but it works….we are still on this side of Armageddon – nothing is perfect.
I do not think you understand what the word "rule" means.  The letters in Arabic - which is close to the Hebrew- means to judge.  This means that "decisions” will be made regarding the administration of the restoration of the earth and of individual people – who may not be cooperating. 
One need not be among the people 'physically' to do this - just like a board of a company does not have to be present physically to make decisions about a company.
I also said - this does not mean that they will not be able to materialize for special purposes.  However, Jehovah is the perfect planner and everything he does has logic to it:-  
Why will he give a heavenly ‘reward’ and then bring them back to earth in materialized form to live on earth for thousand years.    Would it not have been more practical to let them stay here on earth in human form and then take them to heaven AFTER the 1000 years?   
As I said before - adopted sons of Jehovah will be part of his heavenly family like the other sons. 
Their bodies:
Rom 8:23 Not only that, but we ourselves also who have the firstfruits, namely, the spirit, yes, we ourselves groan within ourselves while we are earnestly waiting for adoption as sons, the release from our ‘bodies’ by ransom. 
1 Cor 15: 50 But I tell you this, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit God’s Kingdom, nor does corruption inherit incorruption.
 The Place:
Rev 3:21 To the one who conquers I will grant to sit down with me on my throne, just as I conquered and sat down with my Father on his throne.
Hebrew 8:1 – What tent is spoken of in these verses? The temple in earthly/fleshly Jerusalem or the heavenly one?
“…and he has sat down at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens, a minister of the holy place and of the true tent, which Jehovah set up, and not man. 
4  If he were on earth, he would not be a priest, since there are already men who offer the gifts according to the Law. These men are offering sacred service in a typical representation and a shadow of the heavenly things;
Hebrews 9: For its part, the former covenant used to have legal requirements for sacred service and its holy place on earth.
24 For Christ did not enter into a holy place made with hands, which is a copy of the reality, but into heaven itself,
The reality of the new covenant is in heaven - 
Hebrews 10: for the way of entry into the holy place by the blood of Jesus, which he opened up for us as a new and living way through the curtain, that is, his flesh, 
(Entire Hebrews 10 is about Jesus offering up his flesh - a fleshly body was prepared for him as sacrifice - so will the anointed offer up their flesh)
Hebrews 12:22  But you have approached a Mount Zion and a city of the living God, heavenly Jerusalem, and myriads of angels in general assembly, and the congregation of the firstborn who have been enrolled in the heavens,
. God will be present in this city:
Revelation 22: And there will no longer be any curse. But the throne of God and of the Lamb will be in the city, and his slaves will offer him sacred service; and they will see his face, and his name will be on their foreheads. God will shed light upon them, and they will rule as kings forever and ever.
NEW NATION and citizenship:
Phil 3:20 But our citizenship exists in the heavens, and we are eagerly waiting for a savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ, who will transform our humble body to be like his glorious body by his great power that enables him to subject all things to himself.
MT ZION: Isaiah 8 :18 Jehovah resides on Mount Zion.  
(apologies for the format - it is late and I want to go to bed)