Jump to content

Anna

What does a person have to do to survive Armageddon?

Topic Summary

Created

Last Reply

Replies

Views

Anna -
Jesus.defender -
131
5496

Top Posters


Recommended Posts

Has anyone wondered about this?

God’s Kingdom Rules! Page 230, par.19 & 20  says:

How to Prepare Ourselves

19  How can we prepare ourselves for the earthshaking

events that are to come? The Watchtower stated some years

ago: “Survival will depend on obedience.” Why is that so?

The answer is found in a warning from Jehovah to the captive

Jews living in ancient Babylon. Jehovah foretold that

Babylon would be conquered, but what were God’s people

to do to prepare themselves for that event? Jehovah stated:

“Go, my people, enter your inner rooms, and shut your

doors behind you. Hide yourself for a brief moment until

the wrath has passed by.” (Isa. 26:20) Note the verbs in this

verse: “go,” “enter,” “shut,” “hide”—all are in the imperative

mood; they are commands. The Jews who heeded those

commands would have stayed in their houses, away from

the conquering soldiers out in the streets. Hence, their survival

depended on obeying Jehovah’s instructions.[2]

 

20  What is the lesson for us? As in the case of those ancient

servants of God, our survival of coming events will

depend on our obedience to Jehovah’s instructions. (Isa.

30:21) Such instructions come to us through the congregation

arrangement. Therefore, we want to develop heartfelt

obedience to the guidance we are receiving. (1 John 5:3)

If we do so today, we will be more inclined to obey willingly

in the future and thus receive the protection of our Father,

Jehovah, and our King, Jesus. (Zeph. 2:3) That divine

protection will allow us to witness firsthand how God’s

Kingdom will completely remove its enemies. What an unforgettable

event that will be!

Prior to those paragraphs, and in harmony with Matthew 24, it was made clear that the sheep and the goats will have already been judged, the sheep being marked for survival. Why would there be further need to follow some other instructions in order to survive? Matthew 24 does not indicate anything about additional instructions as a criterion for survival. In fact it says “then two men will be in the field; one will be taken along and the other abandoned.  Two women will be grinding at the hand mill; one will be taken along and the other abandoned.” This indicates that people will be in ordinary situations, when they are “saved”. The rest of the gospels focus on doing God’s will and following in Christ’s footsteps as the criterion for gaining salvation. "For this is what the love of God means, that we observe his commandments; and yet his commandments are not burdensome" 1John 5:3. None of the Greek scriptures talk about any special instructions that will have to be obeyed during the great tribulation and Armageddon.  It is only Isaiah that mentions this in relation to surviving the overthrow of Babylon, with similar references to the Passover in Egypt and perhaps also Noah entering the Ark.

I wonder why the Slave thinks that the same pattern will be followed when the ultimate destruction comes, as if Jehovah is not capable of saving individuals wherever they may be. Looking at it from a practical point of view, not everyone will be physically able to “go” or “shut” or “hide”. Think of the old and infirm.  The scripture in Zepheniah 2:3 talks about doing specific things well before  the day of Jehovah's anger. “Seek Jehovah, all you meek ones of the earth, Who observe his righteous decrees, seek righteousness, seek meekness. Probably you will be concealed on the day of Jehovah’s anger”.

The paragraph that follows,  (Par. 20) talks about us learning to obey the Slave now, so that when the time comes we will “obey” the Slave then, because our salvation depends on it.  But the scriptures clearly show our salvation depends on lots of other things, one of them being enduring faithfully to the end.  This was the symposium at this year’s Do not Give up convention as well. This included practical steps to “Run With Endurance”

·         Run to Win! (1 Corinthians 9:24)

·         Train Diligently (1 Corinthians 9:25-27)

·         Let Go of Unnecessary Burdens (Hebrews 12:1)

·         Imitate Good Examples (Hebrews 12:2, 3)

·         Eat Nutritious Food (Hebrews 5:12-14)

·         Drink Plenty of Water (Revelation 22:17)

·         Obey the Rules of the Contest (2 Timothy 2:5)

·         Be Confident of Gaining the Prize (Romans 15:13)

That pertains to everything we do now. And those are the things we will be judged on. That’s how we prepare ourselves surely? Not by obeying some last minute instructions as if Jehovah is not capable of saving each individual Witness wherever they may be, since the whole performance is going to involve supernatural powers anyway....Plus, it has been speculated that some may die at Armageddon, not by Jehovah's hand, but by other extenuating circumstances, even by being in the wrong place at the wrong time.

I will do some more research on this....

 

Share this post


Link to post

Regardless of the fact that I do not share much of the Governing Body's explanation, when did the time for Jerusalem's destruction approach them, they did not have to stand up and go? Did not they have to do something practical and immediately even if they were old and sick?
From what little I understood (little: I used the translator) would not it have been enough that they had faith in Jehovah?
Since Jehovah is Almighty and can protect His people in any circumstance, Christians of the first century could also decide not to leave Jerusalem, no?

Obviously there are many other things to say.
The instructions come from the Word of God (and will not come from a divine inspiration) so it is important to study the Bible to understand what we must do when approaching the Armageddon War.
But many of us believe they have understood everything and are not allowed to discuss or look.
They wait for instructions from others.

Share this post


Link to post
5 hours ago, Anna said:

20 What is the lesson for us?

There is no direct statement in the publications that we must "hide." You have included some bigger questions about timing and survival and obedience, and those are worth discussing. However, the logic of the two paragraphs indicates nothing about "hiding" in any modern-day fulfillment of Isaiah 26:20. The point was only that, in this past example, survival depended on obedience to "commands" and the same will be true in the near future.

Share this post


Link to post
15 hours ago, JW Insider said:

There is no direct statement in the publications that we must "hide." You have included some bigger questions about timing and survival and obedience, and those are worth discussing. However, the logic of the two paragraphs indicates nothing about "hiding" in any modern-day fulfillment of Isaiah 26:20. The point was only that, in this past example, survival depended on obedience to "commands" and the same will be true in the near future.

Thank you. I wrote this late last night, and knew it wasn't really what I wanted to say. I wanted to talk about the "timing and survival and obedience"  I should have waited till my brain was in gear properly. Although the Slave has insinuated "hiding"  in the convention video, I understand that it was not meant specifically, as we really don't know. So I wanted the whole point of my post to be about the necessity to obey some additional command in order to survive, when already judged as sheep. I was wanting to reason on the fact that what would happen if as a sheep, you happen not to obey this specific command whatever it will be, "especially when it might seem illogical from a human point of view". Is it insinuating a kind of "Final Test" of loyalty? But does that make sense if already judged as sheep and marked for survival and is the concept of this kind of "Final Test" even scriptural? Are we not to be "found finally by him spotless and unblemished and in peace" without some additional requirement?

Why this additional need to prove our loyalty to God, by obeying the Slave to survive Armageddon, and why is the Slave using this as a reason to obey them now. Today, shouldn't we want to be cooperative with organizational arrangements  because it creates order and because we believe it is the right thing to do? Why does the Slave have to preface paragraph 20 in the book with the kind of sentiments in paragraph 19?

I will go and edit the title of the topic and and make some changes to the original post so that it reflects more of what I actually meant :)

Share this post


Link to post
6 hours ago, Israeli Bar Avaddhon said:

From what little I understood (little: I used the translator) would not it have been enough that they had faith in Jehovah?
Since Jehovah is Almighty and can protect His people in any circumstance, Christians of the first century could also decide not to leave Jerusalem, no?

Good point. I wonder why this wasn't used as an example rather than Isaiah? I guess because we apply it to getting out of false religion and keep ourselves without spot from the world. But my main dispute really is that this is being used in a kind of foreboding way as a reason everyone should be obedient and cooperate with the Slave now.

Share this post


Link to post
34 minutes ago, AllenSmith said:

The posted question has one simple take. OBEY GOD'S WILL, and stay away from people that oppose his message, when its sent through those that God has commissioned.

    Hello guest!

Just like people think the GB is overreaching with scripture, So are they with apostasy!!!^_^

 

There you go again with your apostates, lol. I'm sure it must be your favorite word.

Share this post


Link to post

Further to the topic above, this WT talks about Jehovah's Valley of protection.

    Hello guest!

"How vital it will be during the great tribulation to maintain our faith in Jehovah’s saving power and to remain in Jehovah’s valley of protection"!

" Under Jehovah’s protection, we will survive the end of this wicked system of things and enter into God’s righteous new world. Though we are objects of hatred by all the nations, let us be resolved to remain loyal subjects of God’s Kingdom, ever determined to stay in Jehovah’s valley of protection".

Share this post


Link to post

I will add these scriptures:

(2 Peter 2:9) So, then, Jehovah knows how to rescue people of godly devotion out of trial, but to reserve unrighteous people to be destroyed on the day of judgment,

(Acts 3:22, 23) 22 In fact, Moses said: ‘Jehovah your God will raise up for you from among your brothers a prophet like me. You must listen to whatever he tells you. 23 Indeed, anyone who does not listen to that Prophet will be completely destroyed from among the people.. . .

(Matthew 17:5) 5 While he was still speaking, look! a bright cloud overshadowed them, and look! a voice out of the cloud said: “This is my Son, the beloved, whom I have approved. Listen to him.” 

(1 Corinthians 4:6) 6 Now, brothers, these things I have applied to myself and A·polʹlos for your good, that through us you may learn the rule: “Do not go beyond the things that are written,” so that you may not be puffed up with pride, favoring one against the other. 
 

 

Share this post


Link to post

For the sake of this discussion I see the need to separate for a moment organizational procedures and spiritual matters, (although many times they are intertwined obviously). We understand organizational procedures to involve things like congregational protocol, certain policies on handling various matters etc. etc.

Spiritual things or doctrinal matters on the other hand are those that we learn when we study the Bible, meditate on, and put into practice what we learn in our lives. This must be what Jesus had in mind when he makes all those references to salvation.

Organizational matters are important for obvious reasons, and cooperation with those taking the lead in these matters is obviously important too.

However, when it comes to actual salvation on that day, are we perhaps going beyond what is written if we attach importance to a location, i.e. where we find ourselves physically, when it seems clear from the scriptures that it is our spiritual state that will decide the outcome for an individual at Armageddon?

  

Share this post


Link to post

Acts 3:22,23 is referring to Jesus Christ, and Jesus Christ is often called the "Greater Moses". We know that Jesus Christ is our undeniable leader and we should "Listen to him" as it says in Matthew 17:5. Now, how should we expect to receive direction from Jesus Christ today and in the coming years? Is it direct from Christ or from a body of men acting as representatives for him? This isn't meant as an attack on the GB, but I just wanted some clarification on this matter. Because in the first century, Jesus Christ was able to direct Saul/Paul directly to preach on his behalf. He didn't go through a centralized body to see that work done.

Share this post


Link to post
2 hours ago, Anna said:

are we perhaps going beyond what is written

by going beyond the application intended,  (Isaiah 25:20 and 30:21, 1John 5:3,  Zephaniah 2:3 as cited in the two paragraphs) claiming that "our survival of coming events will depend on our obedience to Jehovah’s instructions" and  "Therefore, we want to develop heartfelt obedience to the guidance we are receiving. (1 John 5:3) If we do so today, we will be more inclined to obey willingly in the future and thus receive the protection of our Father, Jehovah, and our King, Jesus" for the purpose of the Slave reaffirming God given authority over the flock at the present time?

To me, it sounds awfully like some kind of soft threat you make to a child. What I hear when I read those two paragraphs in the “God’s Kingdom book”  is: “you better obey the Slave NOW or you’re gonna die!” And I am thinking, do we really need that? Are we presumed so shallow as to obey merely to save our hides? Or shouldn’t we be granted the dignity that our obedience surely has deeper motives than that?

 

There, I’ve said it in a nutshell.

Share this post


Link to post
2 hours ago, Noble Berean said:

Is it direct from Christ or from a body of men acting as representatives for him? This isn't meant as an attack on the GB, but I just wanted some clarification on this matter. Because in the first century, Jesus Christ was able to direct Saul/Paul directly to preach on his behalf. He didn't go through a centralized body to see that work done.

You will probably admit that it would be very difficult to accomplish what we have accomplished globally without having a centralized body. I personally see nothing wrong, or even unscriptural about it. Even with regard to keeping a uniform doctrine. 

Here are two articles from the same WT that go into detail of why this idea is reasonable:

    Hello guest!

    Hello guest!

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
2 hours ago, Noble Berean said:

Because in the first century, Jesus Christ was able to direct Saul/Paul directly to preach on his behalf.

Says who? Paul himself, mostly, plus a handful that could testify he had experienced some sort of religious experience, though they were not able to catch any of the words. Skeptics on this forum would not have been impressed.

 What if those first century Christians had refused to listen to him or read his letters, saying 

 

2 hours ago, Noble Berean said:

We know that Jesus Christ is our undeniable leader and we should "Listen to him" as it says in Matthew 17:5. Now, how should we expect to receive direction from Jesus Christ today and in the coming years? Is it direct from Christ or from a body of men acting as representatives for him?

Why could they not have reasoned similarly? Let Jesus speak himself, if he has something to say! Why could they not have refused to listen to Paul the Middleman? When the verse says "Listen to him" it is not speaking of Paul.

Perhaps there were some who did argue that way. I don't see why there wouldn't have been. Where are they now?

The good news enjoyed tremendous growth under Paul? Big deal. It has done the same under the direction of the GB, yet that makes no difference to critics here.

Practically speaking, what do you propose we should do if we allow no one to represent Christ, but insist on communication from Jesus himself?

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
4 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Paul himself, mostly, plus a handful that could testify he had experienced some sort of religious experience, though they were not able to catch any of the words.

Jehovah God gave ample evidence to first-century Christians to verify the apostle Paul's divine backing:

  • In Acts 14:10 he heals a man so that he can walk.
  • In Acts 19:11-12 his handkerchief causes diseases and demons to be expelled.
  • In Acts 20:10-12 he resurrects a boy.
4 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Practically speaking, what do you propose we should do if we allow no one to represent Christ, but insist on communication from Jesus himself?

I admit that I can't dogmatically say that Jesus Christ has no representatives on earth. I just was trying to point out that in the Bible Jesus Christ doesn't need a centralized body to achieve his will, so it throws a wrench into the GB's theory Jesus operates in a pyramid, trickle-down structure. I do believe that Jehovah God has and is still using anointed ones to direct the preaching work and to direct his people. I believe that the anointed will become increasingly important in coming years as guides for his people. I do believe that the worldwide reach of the preaching work by the JW organization indicates that God's temple of anointed is associated with this organization (a religion established by anointed ones and still supported by anointed ones). I see the temple of God as the anointed ones--a people rather than a faceless organization that exists legally (2 Corinthians 6:14-18). God's temple is IMO not contingent on a legally created organization, but is a brotherhood that will exist regardless of what happens to the JW org.

I think the GB has made it pretty clear that we can only make it into the new system by closely obeying their singular direction. There's a very narrow pathway to get to the other side of this system of things, and it's tied to unquestioned obedience of the GB. The organization is very high control with no room for dissent. The GB has set it up that no one can question their direction under threat of expulsion. That alarms me, because when you have unchecked authority things usually don't go well. And I think it's also concerning that JWs don't seem to "...test the inspired statements to see whether they originate with God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world" (1 John 4:1). And I am one of those "loonies" that believe the Man of Lawlessness will play some role in the future.

Share this post


Link to post
8 hours ago, Noble Berean said:

Jehovah God gave ample evidence to first-century Christians to verify the apostle Paul's divine backing:

  • In Acts 14:10 he heals a man so that he can walk.
  • In Acts 19:11-12 his handkerchief causes diseases and demons to be expelled.
  • In Acts 20:10-12 he resurrects a boy.

And Paul also said all these gifts would pass away. So it all becomes irrelevant to identifying divine backing today.

8 hours ago, Noble Berean said:

I admit that I can't dogmatically say that Jesus Christ has no representatives on earth

Then why keep doing it with the GB?

 

8 hours ago, Noble Berean said:

I just was trying to point out that in the Bible Jesus Christ doesn't need a centralized body to achieve his will,

He doesn't NEED anything. That is not to say it does not come in handy. Replace Bethel with a pile of rocks, and look to those to 'cry out.'

8 hours ago, Noble Berean said:

I do believe... I believe... I do believe 

My point is that your footing is much less firm here.

 

8 hours ago, Noble Berean said:

I see the temple of God as the anointed ones--a people rather than a faceless organization that exists legally ...JW org.

If anything, the JW.org disproves this. I see their faces all the time, whereas I never used to.

8 hours ago, Noble Berean said:

God's temple is IMO not contingent on a legally created organization,

Yes! As long as God's temple doesn't do anything, all is fine. Far better to meet in each other's basements. (caution: unnecessary sarcasm here, the language of you-know-who)

 

8 hours ago, Noble Berean said:

but is a brotherhood that will exist regardless of what happens to the JW org.

Yes. It will. Why not allow it to make hay while the sun shines?

8 hours ago, Noble Berean said:

I think the GB has made it pretty clear that we can only make it into the new system by closely obeying their singular direction. There's a very narrow pathway to get to the other side of this system of things

You think there's not? Didn't Jesus say something about 'cramped and narrow?' I think they simply don't want to be negligent. I don't think they know themselves how things will shake out beyond the hints from the scriptures. But whatever the caution be issued in the future, I don't think they want to see a brotherhood dominated by the sons-in-law of Lot, who imagine they are joking.

IMO, it is because of this that: 

 

8 hours ago, Noble Berean said:

 it's tied to unquestioned obedience of the GB. The organization is very high control with no room for dissent. The GB has set it up that no one can question their direction under threat of expulsion.

You have much exaggerated this, but everyone knows where you are coming from. Nobody would say your words are groundless, only exaggerated. This is among the most recurring themes of this entire forum.

8 hours ago, Noble Berean said:

That alarms me, because when you have unchecked authority things usually don't go well.

This statement strikes me as not unlike Peter's in the windstorm - panicking at the unknown and fear-inspiring. Congregation authority was pretty much unchecked in the first century, much to the dismay of Diotrophes and the superfine apostles. As so as the latter succeeded in checking it, it all fell apart.

8 hours ago, Noble Berean said:

And I think it's also concerning that JWs don't seem to "...test the inspired statements to see whether they originate with God

We do tend to go by rote. How 'concerning' this is is anyone's guess. They don't call them sheep for nothing.

8 hours ago, Noble Berean said:

And I am one of those "loonies" 

No.

Share this post


Link to post
47 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Then why keep doing it with the GB?

There's many more anointed than GB members, but according to the GB salvation comes from strict obedience to them alone. Based on the increasing number of partakers...I wonder if a generation of younger anointed ones is rising up. This seems to be a worrisome trend to the org, because it throws a wrench in their current generation theory. Like I said, I believe the anointed will play a vital role in the future. But I digress...

1 hour ago, TrueTomHarley said:

If anything, the JW.org disproves this. I see their faces all the time, whereas I never used to.

I meant the faceless legal entity that exists in name only. It behaves like a person would...seeking it's best interests. But I'm concerned about the people and not an organization. 

48 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

He doesn't NEED anything. That is not to say it does not come in handy. Replace Bethel with a pile of rocks, and look to those to 'cry out.'

I get that he can do anything he wants, but I'm concerned about what he has done to verify what he's doing today. Do you think it's at all possible that Jesus could communicate with the anointed directly? And not rely on a centralized GB? If that were the case, would that be acceptable to those taking the lead? 

1 hour ago, TrueTomHarley said:

This statement strikes me as not unlike Peter's in the windstorm - panicking at the unknown and fear-inspiring. Congregation authority was pretty much unchecked in the first century, much to the dismay of Diotrophes and the superfine apostles. As so as the latter succeeded in checking it, it all fell apart.

Is it an unreasonable fear? If unchecked authority was what caused the Clergy class to form, shouldn't we be concerned about the unchecked authority of the GB today? "Oh this time just trust us." I believe power is always corruptive. 

1 hour ago, TrueTomHarley said:

We do tend to go by rote. How 'concerning' this is is anyone's guess. They don't call them sheep for nothing

It's concerning because the organization promotes a mindset of not questioning anything. That flies in the face of 1 John 4:1. Jehovah wants us to test the inspired expressions. The bereans were called noble for that reason. If it is the truth, it should stand up to critical thought. 

Share this post


Link to post

Try to evaluate this "inspired expression".
If it does not happen, it's false.
Soon the preaching work will be suppressed, first in Russia and then all over the world.
The war that is about to burst (because it is about to burst) will lead to the victory of the northern king (which is currently Russia). The suppression of the preaching work will reach the whole world and the king of the north will "succeed."
The Governing Body does not say this, is not it?
Indeed, he said that "Jehovah's Witnesses have resisted all persecutions and will stand still now" (referring to the situation in Russia). 
If the Governing Body is right, then there is nothing to worry about (but we hope it does not happen again as in 1914 or 1975).
If, on the contrary, the people of God are made up of spiritual drunks, then they will have to wake up through Jehovah's "strange work".
Keep looking at what's happening - Joel 1: 5-8
Alternatively, to change, you could really study the Bible and understand what to do (without idolizing people above the Bible).
"What does a person have to do to survive Armageddon?"
You could study the Bible without preconceptions.
Perhaps even the last "stupid" is able to understand it if sincerely asks God to help - Matthew 11:25

Share this post


Link to post
5 hours ago, Noble Berean said:

If it is the truth, it should stand up to critical thought. 

Oh? Jesus said any who would see life must eat his flesh and drink his blood. How would your 'critical thought' analyze that one? He lost a great many disciples that day. Probably it was ones who, like you, put their trust in critical thought.

'Critical thought' is the trademark of a generation that constructs a system that is swirling directly down the toilet, and yet proponents thereof project an air of superiority right until their heads go under.

Jesus could not have said anything more stupid if his concern was to cater to critical thought. It should be clear that he doesn't give a hoot about it. He violates its tenets all the time. He spins illustrations that he rarely explains. When he does explain them, it is not in a manner that would satisfy any advocate of critical thought. He raises strawmen as readily as he breathes. He launches ad homenum attacks willy-nilly. He speaks to the heart, in almost total disregard for the head. 

For every verse about the head, there are ten about the heart. People insisting on critical thought are the most obnoxious people in the world because each one assumes that he alone has a lock on the stuff. Critical thought is the main element of this world's wisdom that God laughs at.

Though I don't mean to equate the two, the current uproar over a Trump tweet illustrates the divide perfectly. I don't care how much I dislike @James Thomas Rook Jr. ; if he saved my kid from 10 years in a Chinese prison I would be on my hands and knees thanking him. A tweet that calls out ingratitude gets people stirred up because it speaks to the heart - everyone knows where gratitude is and when it is appropriate. But those who go in for critical analysis think the president petty for not letting it go. Doesn't he have more important things to do?

When Trump tweets that North Korea has launched all its missills, people of heart will run to take cover. People of critical thought will run to their computers to point out that the idiot can't even spell the word right.

THAT is my opinion of your 'critical thought.' As nearly as I can tell, it is Jesus' opinion. And God's.

Things that have been done on the GB's watch and on their behest - do the blessings outweigh the costs? There are costs - sometimes they are significant. Do the spiritual benefits the GB alone has enabled outweigh the costs? Or do the costs, invariably matters of personal rights curtailed somehow, outweigh the benefits? It is a matter of the heart. The head has little to do with it.

Share this post


Link to post
10 hours ago, Noble Berean said:

Like I said, I believe the anointed will play a vital role in the future.

I am assuming you mean while still on earth since in heaven they will definitely play a vital role :). All the anointed I have ever known (and I have known quite a few) have been very humble people, never ones who pushed ahead and asserted themselves in any way. I cannot imagine that they would suddenly become something they are not. True, I don't now what kind of role you had in mind, and if this role would require some kind of miraculous intervention, since there are many congregations with not a single anointed person in them.

Share this post


Link to post
1 hour ago, TrueTomHarley said:

When Trump tweets that North Korea has launched all its missills, people of heart will run to take cover. People of critical thought will run to their computers to point out that the idiot can't even spell the word right.

:D:D:D funny but true!

Share this post


Link to post
7 hours ago, Noble Berean said:

Do you think it's at all possible that Jesus could communicate with the anointed directly? And not rely on a centralized GB? If that were the case, would that be acceptable to those taking the lead? 

Sorry, I know this question wasn't to me, but I find it interesting. As far as I am aware, Jesus doesn't communicate with the anointed (any anointed) directly. I believe all the communication is there for anybody to access, because it's the Bible. Yes, holy spirit is needed to help us understand the scriptures, but anyone can ask for holy spirit for that purpose. The only time in my opinion when there is any direct communication, is at the point when the person receives the heavenly calling. It used to be thought that the anointed would regularly receive some kind of divine flashes of inspiration or insight, but there is no evidence that the anointed, including the GB think that now. It seems that all true Christians have equal access to the Bible, prayer and holy spirit. 

Share this post


Link to post

@Anna. Is all this discussion about this little piece of advice in paragraph 20 of Chapter 21 of the Kingdom Rule Book?

"As in the case of those ancient servants of God, our survival of coming events will depend on our obedience to Jehovah’s instructions. (Isa. 30:21) Such instructions come to us through the congregation arrangement. Therefore, we want to develop heartfelt obedience to the guidance we are receiving. (1 John 5:3) If we do so today, we will be more inclined to obey willingly in the future and thus receive the protection of our Father, Jehovah, and our King, Jesus."

For me the thrust of this is "Make it a practice to obey the instructions coming through the current theocratic structure in the congregation right now. Don't fall into the trap of thinking because you are safe today, you are safe tomorrow. "He that endures to the end is the one that will be saved" With regard to the end of the current system of things, similar situations have occurred in the past, but those who survived followed to the letter, and to the end, the instructions they were given at the time. If you take heed of their example now, then you will be well prepared to follow  instructions quickly and carefully both now and in the future, no matter how or by whatever means they are given, because your very lives are involved"

Bit like saying " Well, you're on the right plane, we're taking off in a minute, but there are some safety instructions I need to give you as we are expecting some disturbance on the flight. Don't be too concerned, we've never lost a passenger yet who followed the instructions to the letter. Here they are, please pay attention............"

Let's turn it around. "Do not follow any instructions given through the congregation, particularly those coming from the Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses, regarding any action that needs to be taken through the coming cataclysmic events that will accompany the end of the current system of things."

Let me know how you get on.

Share this post


Link to post
1 hour ago, Gone Fishing said:

Is all this discussion about this little piece of advice in paragraph 20 of Chapter 21 of the Kingdom Rule Book?

Yes, including paragraph 19. But I think the thread might have digressed a little by now.

1 hour ago, Gone Fishing said:

Let's turn it around. "Do not follow any instructions given through the congregation, particularly those coming from the Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses, regarding any action that needs to be taken through the coming cataclysmic events that will accompany the end of the current system of things."

Let me know how you get on.

I think you might have misunderstood. I have no issue with following  instructions per se. None at all actually. What I am wondering about is the reasoning in par. 19 and 20 in relation to this. There are two questions that came to mind as we were studying the lesson at the midweek meeting (actually a week ago since I read on ahead last week). I already posted my line of thought in several posts above and you might have missed it, so I will just rearrange and copy and paste some of it here:

In those two paragraphs I was wondering if we might be going beyond what is written by going beyond the application intended for the scriptures that were cited: (Isaiah 25:20 and 30:21, 1John 5:3,  Zephaniah 2:3)( saying that "our survival of coming events will depend on our obedience to Jehovah’s instructions" and  "Therefore, we want to develop heartfelt obedience to the guidance we are receiving. (1 John 5:3) If we do so today, we will be more inclined to obey willingly in the future and thus receive the protection of our Father, Jehovah, and our King, Jesus") It makes me wonder, was this written for the purpose of reaffirming the Slave's God given authority over the flock at the present time?

Otherwise it doesn't seem to make sense to me that after those who are judged as sheep, and marked for survival then their survival (of coming events) will depend on their obedience to Jehovah’s instructions. I don't see anywhere in the scriptures where Jesus teaches this idea with regard to the final judgement. In fact I see the opposite "Then two men will be in the field; one will be taken along and the other abandoned. Two women will be grinding at the hand mill; one will be taken along and the other abandoned".

To me, it sounds awfully like some kind of soft threat you make to a child. What I hear when I read those two paragraphs is: “you better obey the Slave NOW, or you’re gonna die later.” And I am thinking, do we really need that? Are we presumed so shallow as to obey merely to save our hides? Or shouldn’t we be granted the dignity that our obedience surely has deeper motives than that?

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
2 hours ago, Gone Fishing said:

Bit like saying " Well, you're on the right plane, we're taking off in a minute, but there are some safety instructions I need to give you as we are expecting some disturbance on the flight. Don't be too concerned, we've never lost a passenger yet who followed the instructions to the letter. Here they are, please pay attention..

Assuming that landing safely is the ultimate goal, that illustration is good, except what I think the Bible (Jehovah) is saying is; " Well, you're on the right plane, we're taking off in a minute, but there are some safety instructions I need to give you as we are expecting some disturbance on the flight. If you follow them,  you will land safely". And what the Slave seems to be adding is; "So when you have landed safely and arrived at the gate,  there will be additional instructions because without those you will not be able to make it into the building".

Share this post


Link to post
12 hours ago, Noble Berean said:

Do you think it's at all possible that Jesus could communicate with the anointed directly? 

Yes

12 hours ago, Noble Berean said:

And not rely on a centralized GB?

Yes.

12 hours ago, Noble Berean said:

If that were the case, would that be acceptable to those taking the lead? 

It had better be. But these three questions miss the one obvious fact that makes them all irrelevant.

How would they know? Because the individual annointed ones say so? The day that this happens I am going to reveal here that I am also annointed and I have been lurking here for months. I now have a pronouncement. It is that my fellow annointed @Witness is all wet and no one should listen to her, and that @James Thomas Rook Jr. is next in line as replacement in case someone bites the dust. He has many many many complaints. It is time to put them all on the front burner.

If anyone doesn't believe it, I will threaten to summon Jesus' white horse, who is not exactly Mr. Ed. I'm annointed. I said something. Jump!!

 

 

Share this post


Link to post

@Gone Fishing

We can take this whole survival thing further into the stream of time. Even after being judged as sheep, and after entering the new world, our survival will always depend on obeying Jehovah’s instructions, since we will always be dependent on him to stay alive. Still, I don’t think that warrants us thinking that there will be some kind of “special logistical” instructions at Armageddon, as if Jehovah needs us in one particular place, or do some particular thing in order to be able to save us. Or in order for us to prove we are worthy of salvation. Like one more test on top of a test. And especially not when the reason for that is used to “encourage” us to be obedient now.....  

Just my thoughts

Share this post


Link to post
12 hours ago, Anna said:

in order for us to prove we are worthy of salvation

Well I think we all know this will never happen. The undeserved kindness behind the ransom is the key to salvation, but as we know, it has terms. That's the intent of Jesus words at Matt 7:21.

It doesn't matter how far you extend my illustration through the stages of a journey (of which "landing safely" is only the first), there will always be some set of protocols to ensure a safe passage. Even those who had no sin had a need to conform to Jehovah's direction, even if the instruction was just to determine a willingness to do just that. This was demonstrated with Adam and Eve in the garden of Eden when the general statement at Gen.1:29 was modified by the detail at Gen 2:17.

Just because a potential "great crowd" of faithful (thus far) Christians have commenced washing "their robes.... in the blood of the Lamb" and:

  • have not been fooled by declarations of "peace and security" ,
  • are the surving "flesh" when the dismantling of Babylon is "cut short",
  • witness (with understanding) the shaking of the "powers of the heavens",
  • are judged as "sheep", 
  • experience Jehovah's protection and deliverance through the attack of "Gog of the land of Magog" whilst witnessing the gathering of [Jesus'] "chosen ones" (whatever form that takes),

this does not then exclude them from any need to follow instructions from Jehovah, however these are channeled to them for the future.

There will be no "faithful and discreet slave" as we know it once these expected events have taken place. But there will be an arrangement to continue "the journey" safely, under Jehovah's direction. Ez.45:7.

So do I think that being reminded that obedience to Jehovah's instructions through congregational arrangements is a way that the Governing Body is saying “you better obey the Slave NOW, or you’re gonna die later.”, "like some kind of soft threat you make to a child"?

You could probably spin any knd of instruction Jehovah gives through an agency in that manner.

There are all sorts of points that could be made to address this matter but, for now, I prefer the statement made by (even) a demon-possessed woman when she stated of Paul and others preaching the good news, "“These men are slaves of the Most High God and are proclaiming to you the way of salvation" Acts 16:17.

This seems to embody the essence of what was more acceptably expressed at Zephaniah 8:23: “This is what Jehovah of armies says, ‘In those days ten men out of all the languages of the nations will take hold, yes, they will take firm hold of the robe of a Jew, saying: “We want to go with you, for we have heard that God is with you people.”’”

:)

 

Share this post


Link to post
11 hours ago, Gone Fishing said:

It doesn't matter how far you extend my illustration through the stages of a journey (of which "landing safely" is only the first), there will always be some set of protocols to ensure a safe passage.

Exactly, and this is what I tried to explain in the post above, when I said  “We can take this whole survival thing further into the stream of time. Even after being judged as sheep, and after entering the new world, our survival will always depend on obeying Jehovah’s instructions, since we will always be dependent on him to stay alive”.

11 hours ago, Gone Fishing said:

There will be no "faithful and discreet slave" as we know it once these expected events have taken place. But there will be an arrangement to continue "the journey" safely, under Jehovah's direction. Ez.45:7.

So do I think that being reminded that obedience to Jehovah's instructions through congregational arrangements is a way that the Governing Body is saying “you better obey the Slave NOW, or you’re gonna die later.”, "like some kind of soft threat you make to a child"?

You could probably spin any kind of instruction Jehovah gives through an agency in that manner

Yes indeed, and it has apparently already been spun a certain way, according to those two paragraphs.

However, thinking about it logically does that kind of a spin make sense?  I see several problems with it. If we are obedient to the Slave now, we will be judged as sheep obviously, and if we are obedient now, it follows we will be obedient during Armageddon, as per the reasoning in par. 20.  So this is a closed circle, since one naturally leads to the other. Therefore on that basis, what is actually the point of those two paragraphs? And what is to say we are at liberty to apply Jehovah's saving arrangements in the past to what he will do in the future?

Because how can it be categorically said that there will be instructions given to us through some centralized body or agent? Or even congregation overseers? Am I to imagine elder John is going to receive a vision which he will then relay to the rest of the little group?

To go into even more detail, it was different  with the Israelites for example, coming out of Egypt, following Moses. This kind of a scenario will obviously be impossible during Armageddon, although similar scenes are depicted in our literature. However, if you think about it, something like that is not even remotely possible because:

How could we be organized into one large group when we are so scattered? Although we are one nation symbolically we are not one nation physically. The next congregation from us is 10 miles away, and even if we were grouped according to circuits, we might have a couple of thousand, with the next couple of thousand in the next city, miles away. On top of that, how are we going to travel with no fuel, (and with the frail and infirm) since there will be no one to operate the stations, and no electricity to pump the fuel out as there will be no one operating the generators, and no one supplying the fuel as there will be no drivers and there will be no pilots to operate planes, no captains to operate ships, and no one to operate the oil rigs.  How are we going to get any messages forwarded across miles and miles of land and sea? This is a very complex modern infrastructure we live in at the present time, and it is wholly reliant on workers, who will be dead. And on top of these obvious logistical and communicational problems, there will be masses of rotting corpses, poisoning the water and air, to contend with. What are we going to be drinking and eating while we are figuring this out? I am sure we can all think of so much more. So what I am trying to say is that it goes without saying we will evidently have to rely directly on Jehovah and on miracles he will probably perform at that time. It stands to reason we will all be direct witnesses of these miracles, and will experience them personally, without them going through some human centralized group, or agents.

11 hours ago, Gone Fishing said:

or now, I prefer the statement made by (even) a demon-possessed woman when she stated of Paul and others preaching the good news, "“These men are slaves of the Most High God and are proclaiming to you the way of salvation" Acts 16:17.

If we are already judged as sheep before Armageddon, would it stand to reason that we would suddenly become disobedient, if we have proved by our life (on the basis of which we were judged) that we were worthy of being judged as sheep by our previous obedience?  It doesn’t make logical sense we would suddenly see the need to not follow instructions, especially after we have obviously been following instructions to get to where we are that point (judged as sheep) and especially when we had just witnessed the supernatural manifestations of the last prophesy being  fulfilled.  If we are honest, are many of us not already psyched up and eagerly waiting for some “special pronouncement” by the slave, so much so that most of us would be willing to move to Timbuktu at the drop of a hat, if those were the instructions given to us by them? And are we not sitting on the edge of our seats in anticipation and hint of any significant turn of events on the world scene any moment?

Wouldn’t it have been much simpler to say something along the lines of: “How will Jehovah preserve alive those who have been judged as sheep during Armageddon? We will have to wait and see. One thing we can be sure of is that Jehovah knows how to deliver people of Godly devotion. At that time all of us will most likely experience supernatural manifestations on our behalf, and we will want to put our full trust in Jehovah’s protective and life giving powers. Of course it won’t end there, as we will continue to do so after the dust of Armageddon has settled, and in to the distant future"......etc.

So I am still trying to figure out the motive behind those two paragraphs....

11 hours ago, Gone Fishing said:

Zephaniah 8:23: “This is what Jehovah of armies says, ‘In those days ten men out of all the languages of the nations will take hold, yes, they will take firm hold of the robe of a Jew, saying: “We want to go with you, for we have heard that God is with you people.”’”

This is the scripture I always go to, to explain why it's reasonable to expect that God has an organized and a united people on earth today.

Share this post


Link to post

" It seems that all true Christians have equal access to the Bible, prayer and holy spirit. "  - Anna

------------

(Psalm 65:2) 2 O Hearer of prayer, to you people of all sorts will come.

(Proverbs 2:1-22) My son, if you accept my sayings And treasure up my commandments,  2 By making your ear attentive to wisdom And inclining your heart to discernment;  3 Moreover, if you call out for understanding And raise your voice for discernment;  4 If you keep seeking for it as for silver, And you keep searching for it as for hidden treasures;  5 Then you will understand the fear of Jehovah, And you will find the knowledge of God.  6 For Jehovah himself gives wisdom; From his mouth come knowledge and discernment. 

(John 3:16) “For God loved the world so much that he gave his only-begotten Son, so that everyone exercising faith in him might not be destroyed but have everlasting life.

(Revelation 22:17) And the spirit and the bride keep on saying, “Come!” and let anyone hearing say, “Come!” and let anyone thirsting come; let anyone who wishes take life’s water free.

(Joel 2:28,29)  28 After that I will pour out my spirit on every sort of flesh, And your sons and your daughters will prophesy, Your old men will dream dreams, And your young men will see visions. 29 And even on my male slaves and female slaves I will pour out my spirit in those days.

Everyone has equal opportunity to come to Jehovah and receive help.

=====

I wanted to send this last night but it disappeared. Thanks to admin for restoring it.

=====

This morning I was writing a post and something miraculous happened - I was trying to remember a phrase in the Bible, but did not know where it was in the Bible.  I however continued with my writing, when I looked for the scripture for the next point I realized that I was being helped because the verse above the scripture had the phrase I was looking for to support the previous point. (I really did not know it was there I had seen it.)

This is not the first time I had experiences that show that Jehovah wants us to help others put confidence in Him and his Word.  God's Word is alive and exerts power.  Sometimes after I research things to help others I often understand them better or things become clearer to me as well.

 


 

 


 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
2 hours ago, Anna said:

thinking about it logically does that kind of a spin make sense?

What kind of spin? The spin you propose? or something else?

2 hours ago, Anna said:

how can it be categorically said that there will be instructions given to us through some centralized body or agent?

What is the purpose of this type of question? If you believe that Jehovah is providing effective guidance now through his arrangements, as he always has in history,  then there is no reason to doubt that appropriate guidance will be provided by him regardless of logistical challenges speculated upon at this point in time. We do know the meaning of his name don't we?

2 hours ago, Anna said:

we will evidently have to rely directly on Jehovah and on miracles he will probably perform at that time.

Isn't that what we are doing now??

2 hours ago, Anna said:

If we are already judged as sheep before Armageddon, would it stand to reason that we would suddenly become disobedient, if we have proved by our life (on the basis of which we were judged) that we were worthy of being judged as sheep by our previous obedience?

Not sure of the purpose of this question in the light of the ancient advice at 1Cor.10:31 "So let the one who thinks he is standing beware that he does not fall." (Not gender specific either).

2 hours ago, Anna said:

Wouldn’t it have been much simpler to say something along the lines of

Do you mean "the faithful slave should have said etc etc etc....."

2 hours ago, Anna said:

figure out the motive

Perhaps this helps: "they are keeping watch over you as those who will render an account," Heb 13:17.

Share this post


Link to post
4 hours ago, Gone Fishing said:

What kind of spin? The spin you propose? or something else?

No, no, NO! I protest! I did not propose any spin. In fact part of this whole debate is me trying to reason that no spin should be put on it at all.

4 hours ago, Gone Fishing said:

then there is no reason to doubt that appropriate guidance will be provided by him regardless of logistical challenges speculated upon at this point in time. We do know the meaning of his name don't we?

Yes, and I don’t doubt it at all. It just irritates me a little when what is speculation, is presented as fact.

4 hours ago, Gone Fishing said:
7 hours ago, Anna said:

we will evidently have to rely directly on Jehovah and on miracles he will probably perform at that time.

Isn't that what we are doing now??

I would say yes and no. Many rely on Jehovah through the Slave.  What I was meaning “rely directly” was that this reliance will be between individuals and Jehovah only. We have a tendency to do  ”group saving”   through phrases such as “Jehovah’s people as a whole”  “through the congregation arrangement”  etc.  There is nothing wrong with that at all, and is scriptural of course.  But Jesus indicates that this time it will be a little different. Romans14:12 “So, then, each of us will render an account for himself to God” Rev 22:12 “Look! I am coming quickly, and the reward I give is with me, to repay each one according to his work". Matt. 24:41 “Two women will be grinding at the hand mill; one will be taken along and the other abandoned....”.  So I was trying to indicate that concerning Armageddon, speculation on Jehovah  going through specific channels or agents to give us instructions  might be adding to what is not there...in spite of referencing Hebrew scriptures of how it used to be done etc.  As for miracles, I meant the kind of miracles that are not dependent on location or someones activity or that are done on behalf of a group. But the kind of miracle where you are standing in the middle of a war zone by yourself, with bullets flying and bombs going off and you are untouched, Marvel movie style. And then the miracle of actual survival during the aftermath, which I went into already a little.

4 hours ago, Gone Fishing said:
7 hours ago, Anna said:

If we are already judged as sheep before Armageddon, would it stand to reason that we would suddenly become disobedient, if we have proved by our life (on the basis of which we were judged) that we were worthy of being judged as sheep by our previous obedience?

Not sure of the purpose of this question in the light of the ancient advice at 1Cor.10:31 "So let the one who thinks he is standing beware that he does not fall." (Not gender specific either).

The purpose of that question was based on this reasoning in par 20.

Therefore, we want to develop heartfelt

obedience to the guidance we are receiving. (1 John 5:3)

If we do so today, we will be more inclined to obey willingly

in the future and thus receive the protection of our Father,

 

4 hours ago, Gone Fishing said:

Do you mean "the faithful slave should have said etc etc etc....."

I mean the paragraph would have been better without speculations and without the "if's", and the implication that we are so shallow as to obey merely to save our lives, without being granted the dignity that our obedience surely has deeper motives, such as our love for Jehovah and his sovereignty, appreciation for the ransom,  and our desire to please him. Therefor we shouldn't need the  "if's" but rather "because" .

Am I making too much of a big deal out of this...?

I think I need @TrueTomHarley to put things into perspective. Because to be honest, all I want to do during Armageddon is hide in the closet and pray like crazy, and afterwards sit on a pile of rubble, hopefully with my loved ones, have crows bring us food and water and just relax for a week or so. Because we will probably all be physically so tired and too emotionally drained and elated at the same time, to even comprehend any instructions blasted at us through a loudspeaker.

 

 

.

Share this post


Link to post
On 11/22/2017 at 5:34 PM, Anna said:

Good point. I wonder why this wasn't used as an example rather than Isaiah? I guess because we apply it to getting out of false religion and keep ourselves without spot from the world. But my main dispute really is that this is being used in a kind of foreboding way as a reason everyone should be obedient and cooperate with the Slave now.

As predicted in the Scriptures, I imagine that confidence in a certain guide will gradually decrease, more and more.
So writing phrases like "Strange instructions could come" means saying "you always obey".
Moreover, "closing in the congregations" is a play of words because it does not mean "closing in the Halls of the Kingdom". If the people of God will be scattered all over the world until the last moment, no specific instruction will be given (in fact, needs and situations vary from country to country). So cite Isaiah by applying "inner rooms" to congregations can mean everything and nothing.
If you lock yourself in a Kingdom Hall and this Kingdom Hall is destroyed, it means "you did not understand the instructions."
Closure to the congregation, on the other hand, is a way to say "You have to trust in Jehovah."
If something bad happens, it means you did not trust Jehovah.

Instead, the Bible explains that the people of God will be gathered (from all over the world) to a specific spot on Earth just before Armageddon. In this case the instructions (which may concern first aid, hygiene, food sharing and other things) will be clear and simple. They will not be strange.

But this information is "apostasy" is not it?
So very few will pay attention.
Alternatively, wait for these "strange" instructions.
It will be very reasonable to think that people who are resident all over the world, with different geographies, different climates, different needs, and isolated siblings far from everyone and everyone, will receive "specific instructions".
Let's say "close in the congregations" and so we are sure we will not go wrong (if something goes wrong, the fault is what you did not trust in Jehovah).

Think about Israel's history and how it was saved from Egypt, or about Lot and how it was saved from Sodom and Gomorrah.
Think of the words "for our education" - Romans 15: 4
Reflect on the words "fully prepared" - 2 Timothy 3:16, 17
Perhaps the instructions to survive Armageddon (perhaps) are already written in the Bible.

Share this post


Link to post
6 hours ago, Anna said:

think I need @TrueTomHarley to put things into perspective. Because to be honest, all I want to do during Armageddon is hide in the closet and pray like crazy, and afterwards sit on a pile of rubble, hopefully with my loved ones, have crows bring us food and

Have the crows bring her an extra sandwich and more ink for her pen.

Share this post


Link to post
On 11/22/2017 at 7:34 PM, TrueTomHarley said:

Why could they not have reasoned similarly? Let Jesus speak himself, if he has something to say! Why could they not have refused to listen to Paul the Middleman? When the verse says "Listen to him" it is not speaking of Paul.

If we step outside the world of Bible believing people, we find this is exactly how those of critical though (higher criticism) regard Paul. They practically treat him as a person who founded a separate religion, reinterpreting the words and teachings of Jesus - linking them to OT events that Jesus himself never linked them to.

It brings to mind those who rail at the marked difference in direction from Russell to Rutherford, from Rutherford to Knorr, from Knorr to the GB. They are fixated on men. If they are going to harp on this, tell them to not be so namby-pamby. Tell them to follow through. Tell them to ignore Paul and focus on only what Jesus said. 

It is the same with those like @Noble Berean who started this line of discussion, with the GB. It cannot be that God works through that group of men? Don't be such a wimp! Extend your logic to Jesus and Paul. Take your Bible and rip out every book after Acts.

Share this post


Link to post
14 hours ago, Anna said:

The purpose of that question was based on this reasoning in par 20.

Therefore, we want to develop heartfelt

obedience to the guidance we are receiving. (1 John 5:3)

If we do so today, we will be more inclined to obey willingly

in the future and thus receive the protection of our Father,

Then 1Cor 10:31 stands. The concept of  judgement on whether humans are classed figuratively as sheep or goats is drawn from the parable which shows that judgement to be based on how they treat Christs "brothers" (Matt 25:31-46).. So, respect and solidarity for and with anointed Christians, and particularly the Governing Body, is a key component of the favourable judgement.

But if anyone thinks that just standing by an organisational arrangement serves as the sole ticket to Armageddon survival....well..... let me know how that works out, although the "probably" is starting to look a bit "probably won't" from here.

I am looking at a whole range of other scriptural criteria as well, (like Mic 6:8), on this issue, and I am going to continue to be very grateful for the provision of a shepherding arrangement to help and support me in the discerning and applying of those requirements. To me that is the part of the purpose of the congregation as described for example at Eph 4:11-16.

On that basis I cannot see that encouragement to be obedient to instructions and directions by means of the Christian congregation through these crtical times would be in any way a sinister or underhand scheme to over assert authority, or to somehow direct attention away from our need to have complete dependence on the "one who can destroy both soul and body in Ge·hen?na".

So, I do believe we are kicking into the same goal are we not??.............:)

Share this post


Link to post
On 11/22/2017 at 07:14, Anna said:

The Watchtower stated some years ago: “Survival will depend on obedience.”

The paragraph that follows,  (Par. 20) talks about us learning to obey the Slave now, so that when the time comes we will “obey” the Slave then, because our salvation depends on it.  But the scriptures clearly show our salvation depends on lots of other things, one of them being enduring faithfully to the end.  

For the sake of this discussion I see the need to separate for a moment organizational procedures and spiritual matters, 

To me, it sounds awfully like some kind of soft threat you make to a child. What I hear when I read those two paragraphs in the “God’s Kingdom book”  is: “you better obey the Slave NOW or you’re gonna die!”

LESSONS FOR TODAY (WT study edition, nov 2013)

17 . ....(3) At that time, the LIFE-SAVING DIRECTIONS that we receive FROM Jehovah’s ORGANIZATION may not appear practical from a human standpoint. All of us MUST BE READY TO OBEY ANY INSTRUCTIONS we may receive, whether these appear SOUND from a strategic or human standpoint OR NOT. 
 
AND NOW (after few years we have) SALTO MORTALE

“WHO REALLY IS THE FAITHFUL AND DISCREET SLAVE?” (WT study edition, feb 2017) 

12 The Governing Body IS NEITHER INSPIRED NOR INFALLIBLE. Therefore, IT CAN ERR IN DOCTRINAL MATTERS OR IN ORGANIZATIONAL DIRECTION. In fact, the Watch Tower Publications Index includes the heading “Beliefs Clarified,” which lists adjustments in our Scriptural understanding since 1870. Of course, JESUS DID NOT TELL US THAT his faithful SLAVE WOULD PRODUCE PERFECT spiritual food.

 
On 11/22/2017 at 12:45, JW Insider said:

There is no direct statement in the publications that we must "hide."

Basement Video on Convention is one example of direct statement  how should, would, will JW be saved  by resurrection . :)))

 

Share this post


Link to post
7 hours ago, Gone Fishing said:
8 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

JESUS DID NOT TELL US THAT his faithful SLAVE WOULD PRODUCE PERFECT spiritual food.

But HE DID NOT SAY THAT SPRITUAL FOOD WOULD BE PROVIDED FROM ANYWHERE ELSE!

The slave does not produce spiritual food, it's just that any servant that is properly motivated will do what they can to share what they can. Our Governing Body has done an excellent job in finding efficient ways to share "spiritual" food, because the ministry they have chosen to administer for us is a teaching ministry. But the illustration of the "wicked and faithful slave" that this idea is based on says nothing about spiritual food specifically. A true steward will always do what is in his power to effectively carry out his ministry.

But all of us are slaves of Christ, and all of us should learn from the same illustration, whether it is spiritual food we share, physical food, comfort, clothing, support, encouragement -- our food should be for us to do the will of our Father. But I think it's clear that the "food" includes sharing physical food, wherever such a stewardship and ministry is necessary.

  • (James 1:27) 27 The form of worship that is clean and undefiled from the standpoint of our God and Father is this: to look after orphans and widows in their tribulation, and to keep oneself without spot from the world.

  • (Acts 6:1) . . ., the Greek-speaking Jews began complaining against the Hebrew-speaking Jews, because their widows were being overlooked in the daily distribution.

  • (1 Timothy 5:3-8) 3 Give consideration to widows who are truly widows. 4 But if any widow has children or grandchildren, let these learn first to practice godly devotion in their own household and to repay their parents and grandparents what is due them, for this is acceptable in God’s sight. 5 Now the woman who is truly a widow and left destitute has put her hope in God and continues in supplications and prayers night and day. . . .  8 Certainly if anyone does not provide for those who are his own, and especially for those who are members of his household, he has disowned the faith and is worse than a person without faith.

  • (Matthew 10:42) 42 And whoever gives one of these little ones only a cup of cold water to drink because he is a disciple, I tell you truly, he will by no means lose his reward.”

Paul made a point to show that there is no separate "body" within the "body of the congregation." People who believed this would look to men who were good teachers of spiritual things, like Paul himself, or Apollos. Paul said: all Christians were fellow servants, and that all of us carry the burdens of one another. Yet in the end, we are responsible for our own spiritual standing -- not because of specific teachings produced by others.

  • (1 Corinthians 3:5-9) 5 What, then, is A·polʹlos? Yes, what is Paul? Ministers through whom you became believers, just as the Lord granted each one. 6 I planted, A·polʹlos watered, but God kept making it grow, 7 so that neither is the one who plants anything nor is the one who waters, but God who makes it grow. 8 Now the one who plants and the one who waters are one, but each person will receive his own reward according to his own work. 9 For we are God’s fellow workers. You are God’s field under cultivation, God’s building.
  • (Galatians 6:2-5) 2 Go on carrying the burdens of one another, and in this way you will fulfill the law of the Christ. 3 For if anyone thinks he is something when he is nothing, he is deceiving himself. 4 But let each one examine his own actions, and then he will have cause for rejoicing in regard to himself alone, and not in comparison with the other person. 5 For each one will carry his own load.

  • 1 Corinthians 7:22-24) . . .he that was called when a freeman is a slave of Christ. 23 YOU were bought with a price; stop becoming slaves of men. 24 In whatever condition each one was called, brothers, let him remain in it associated with God.

I think we should take offense at the idea that the Governing Body produces spiritual food. Jesus is the food. And all of us will be taught ultimately by Jehovah.

  • (John 6:45-58) 45 It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by Jehovah.’ Everyone who has listened to the Father and has learned comes to me. 46 Not that any man has seen the Father, except the one who is from God; this one has seen the Father. 47 Most truly I say to you, whoever believes has everlasting life. 48 “I am the bread of life. 49 Your forefathers ate the manna in the wilderness and yet they died. 50 This is the bread that comes down from heaven, so that anyone may eat of it and not die. 51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread he will live forever; and for a fact, the bread that I will give is my flesh in behalf of the life of the world.” 52 Then the Jews began to argue with one another, saying: “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?” 53 So Jesus said to them: “Most truly I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in yourselves. 54 Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood has everlasting life, and I will resurrect him on the last day; 55 for my flesh is true food and my blood is true drink. 56 Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood remains in union with me, and I in union with him. 57 Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so also the one who feeds on me will live because of me. 58 This is the bread that came down from heaven. It is not as when your forefathers ate and yet died. Whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.”
  • (1 Corinthians 3:11) 11 For no one can lay any other foundation than what is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

So far, we should remember that so many times when the Governing Body has attempted to produce food, that food has soon rotted or has become stale. But there has always been great permanent value in everything they have shared, even when they are just sharing a cup of water with another one of Christ's brothers when directing a response to material disasters around the world, or other helpful services, or rebuilding a place of worship, or sharing Bibles and Bible-based publications and videos, talks, sermons, artwork, organizing assemblies, etc. But we shouldn't shirk our own part in all this. It's important that ALL of us are faithful and discreet stewards. Otherwise, I think we have missed the point of Jesus' illustration in Matthew 24, and might sometimes just be relying on obsolete types and antitypes to avoid carrying our own load.

  • (1 Peter 4:10-11) 10 To the extent that each one has received a gift, use it in ministering to one another as fine stewards of God’s undeserved kindness that is expressed in various ways. 11 If anyone speaks, let him do so as speaking pronouncements from God; if anyone ministers, let him do so as depending on the strength that God supplies; so that in all things God may be glorified through Jesus Christ.. . .
  • *** Rbi8 1 Peter 4:10 ***    Or, “house managers.” Lit., “house administrators.” Gr., oi·ko·noʹmoi; Lat., di·spen·sa·toʹres; J22(Heb.), kesoh·khenimʹ, “as stewards.”
  • (1 Corinthians 12:27, 28) 27 Now you are Christ’s body, and each of you individually is a member. 28 And God has assigned the respective ones in the congregation:. . . teachers; . . . helpful services; abilities to direct;. . .

When Jesus returns to ask who among us were really faithful stewards, and who were shirking our responsibilities, imagine his reaction --in light of these scriptures-- if we were to tell Jesus that we thought we were supposed to depend on a specific body of men to define what he meant by ministering and to define the types of food we shared with others.

  • (Luke 12:47, 48) 47 Then that slave who understood the will of his master but did not get ready or do what he asked will be beaten with many strokes. 48 But the one who did not understand and yet did things deserving of strokes will be beaten with few. Indeed, everyone to whom much was given, much will be demanded of him, and the one who was put in charge of much will have more than usual demanded of him.

Share this post


Link to post
12 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

It is the same with those like @Noble Berean who started this line of discussion, with the GB. It cannot be that God works through that group of men? Don't be such a wimp! Extend your logic to Jesus and Paul. Take your Bible and rip out every book after Acts.

Perhaps I haven't been very clear with my wording on this forum. I don't actually disagree with a Governing Body existing over the organization of Jehovah's Witnesses. That would be like me questioning why each congregation has an elder body. It is clear that the GB fulfills the role of an elder body over the entire congregation on earth.

What I take issue with is the unquestioned obedience that the GB demands. I have yet to receive satisfactory, Scriptural evidence for this view. Is this how the first century apostles perceived themselves? Any questioning by JWs is compared to the fatal murmuring of Korah and his associates, but Moses was a prophet for Jehovah God. When he spoke to the people, it was like God himself spoke. He was granted the authority by Jehovah to lead the Israelites like God. Jehovah made his divine support of Moses clear when he parted the Red Sea and performed many miracles in his name. When Moses spoke to the people with a thought generated by his own imperfect mind rather than God's, Jehovah actually removed his blessing of the Promise Land. The GB don't speak as prophets, and it is clear they often speak and direct with thoughts generated by imperfect, human minds rather than God's mind. They acknowledge that they have erred in their direction throughout the organization's history. So, how can they expect the same level of obedience that Moses received? It doesn't add up in my mind. Besides, it is Jesus who is the greater Moses and not the GB.

Now, you may say that prophets don't exist anymore, so it's unfair to expect prophets in this day and age. That's true. We no longer need prophets, because we have God's complete word in the Bible. I believe that Jesus Christ's leadership is expressed through the Bible. It trumps all human authority. It is the "check" to us all. The Bible stands alone. In my research, I pondered why Jehovah separated the roles of apostles and prophets into two groups in the first century. I have my own theory that Jehovah did so to prevent one  group from gaining too much authority--sort of like the checks and balances in the US government. But the GB acts as those taking the lead and guardians of doctrine. Instead of the Bible "checking" their authority as an independent entity (like an auditor), it has become completely intertwined with the GB. They have stated that they alone have been granted the capacity from God to properly interpret the Bible's message. So, no one else can use the Bible to check them, because they can simply discredit that individual by saying that he/she was not chosen by God to interpret the Bible. Therefore, their interpretation is invalid.

It's like when the gov't does an internal investigation...we roll our eyes. We know that it won't be too critical against itself, but instead create an outcome that is the most favorable. The GB has interpreted the Bible and structured the org in such a way that gives them maximum control and minimum accountability. They essentially play both sides of the fields: God's channel that deserves unquestioned obedience and the imperfect human group that err. Having to be submissive to a GB who play these 2 conflicting roles is very frustrating for me. I don't know how to work with them.

And while I've said a lot, I just want to be clear that I don't want to usurp anyone's authority--especially in God's religion. My questioning is how I make my faith and my ideology firmer. I'm a work-in-progress. I'm not so dogmatic to claim I have all the right answers. My views are evolving, and I appreciate the discussions on here.

Share this post


Link to post
9 hours ago, Gone Fishing said:

But HE DID NOT SAY THAT SPRITUAL FOOD WOULD BE PROVIDED FROM ANYWHERE ELSE!

He ask, rhetorical question; "Who is FDS?" In asking Jesus not gave the answer.

Only 2 conclusions;

A - IF FDS giving food he is ok and will receive revard 

B - IF FDS not giving food he will be punished. 

 

Share this post


Link to post
4 hours ago, JW Insider said:

The slave does not produce spiritual food.... (and other thoughts) 

Yes, GB  does produce "food" (millions of printed/published publication proved this). In text you explained very well about rooted food from FDS aka GB. Such "product" is not from "heaven". Well who is Producer/Manufacturer  of such rooted food?? 

If "slave" doing his job well he will not received any compliment from Master. Because his job is to work, to serve. And other slaves around this particular "slave" not need to sing praises about "slave" who bring food on table, And also this particular "slave" must quietly doing his job and not talking around how he doing this or that and how all his work is fantastic and unique in the whole world. Such servant is not Modest. And will not receive higher position in Master's household. 

I agree with you, if understand you correctly, how every person is/can be FDS in some situation. :)

I agree how illustration about FDS  tells us nothing about Quality of Food. So, GB self conclusion about  what  words "Jesus never said" is pure manipulation and deceiving.  They, GB also sometimes using fraze, while introducing new theories or new changes of doctrines, like this: "Jesus was thought, He obviously meant ..." and then put OWN human idea :)))

Also, GB by own retrospective self evaluation of food quality ("perfect food" vs "imperfect food") shows how they consider themselves not only as "producer aka kitchen chef" and "sharers aka distributors" of food BUT also as  inspector and controller of food quality. They appropriated the right to evaluate food - this right belongs to the Lord, Master.

Blessed you!

Share this post


Link to post
7 minutes ago, Srecko Sostar said:

They appropriated the right to evaluate food - this right belongs to the Lord, Master.

P.S. about food quality.

Master is One who have  absolute ability to check "the food" and to say all critics and all compliments how and what food was served on a table. Here we have two segments, as you JW Insider also concluded; 

1) Perfect food from Jesus is served on the table

2) Rooted food from Human is served on the table

Is table the same table? Or we have two and more tables? :)

If table is one, and we sitting and waiting for food. And then food start to coming 3-5 time in a day and for weeks and for years. Did I or you not developed ability to recognize all  different tastes and smells of food? How was food served on table? Did same servant came and bring food or some new faces coming with new dishes? 

Who is responsible if i am eating food which taste is suspicious to me (food is not "perfect) and i am stubborn in decision to eat "imperfect", rooted food despite of fact how my taste buds and nose and eyes start to questioning the food? "Kitchen chef" will answer to Master. To whom will answer "distributor of food" the one who bringing food on table? I guess also to Master, no matter did he knew or not what was happen in kitchen in cooking process. And what will be with hungry people around the table. Can they "sue" Chef or Waiter for food they ate? Or to make complain?  It depend.  :)))

Share this post


Link to post
50 minutes ago, Nana Fofana said:

Vit lowliest fluoride-doast looserss -at dat!

Nana, i do not understand this sentence. Google translator is powerless to help me.

But all at all , thanks for very good arguments :) ;)))

Share this post


Link to post
10 hours ago, JW Insider said:

Jesus is the food. And all of us will be taught ultimately by Jehovah.

Jesus is bread and in that meaning is food for us, also as his blood is drink for us. 

Serving to others (doing Father's will) was food for Jesus.

Father's will for us is that Jesus teaching us. He is "Great Teacher" (book) :)))

Share this post


Link to post
1 hour ago, Nana Fofana said:

hmm...

Dear Nana,

i see you gave me LIKE symbol, but...

My thanking you for "very good arguments" was in irony mode. To clear misunderstanding  and meaning of written words i was send to you i will put it this way;

"I am sorry Nana, but i don't see how your comment/explanation giving arguments."

All best Nana!

Share this post


Link to post

Nana reminds me of Paul going nuts under provocation. Squelch her, @The Librarian (you old hen) and you must also squelch Paul:

"Are they ministers of Christ? I reply like a madman I am more outstandly one!" Paul cried in exasperation, pulled rank for several verses, and then they hauled him away to check his blood pressure and give him a sedative.

"You are going mad, @Nana Fofana Great learning is driving you into madness!"

Share this post


Link to post
1 hour ago, Nana Fofana said:

My Sorbian accent 

If you are from Serbia, i would understand if you would like to use your mother language. I am from Zagreb, Croatia, so we are neighbors in this way or another :)))

I spent 3 years in Valjevo prison when i was JW, because refused to go to the army/military service from 1980-1983. hehe

Share this post


Link to post
On 11/25/2017 at 4:28 AM, Israeli Bar Avaddhon said:

Instead, the Bible explains that the people of God will be gathered (from all over the world) to a specific spot on Earth just before Armageddon. 

This is speculation. As if Jehovah can only save people when they are gathered in a specific spot?

On 11/25/2017 at 4:28 AM, Israeli Bar Avaddhon said:

Perhaps the instructions to survive Armageddon (perhaps) are already written in the Bible.

They sure are, as far as I can tell.  John 17:3, John 20:31, John 8:12,  Matthew 7:21,  Romans 2:13, James 1:22, 1 John 2:17, 1 John 5:3, Jude 3:3-5, Romans 13:11-13, Heb 10:36,  3John 3,4,  Romans 8:6....etc. etc.

Share this post


Link to post
11 minutes ago, Anna said:

This is speculation. As if Jehovah can only save people when they are gathered in a specific spot?

They sure are, as far as I can tell.  John 17:3, John 20:31, John 8:12,  Matthew 7:21,  Romans 2:13, James 1:22, 1 John 2:17, 1 John 5:3, Jude 3:3-5, Romans 13:11-13, Heb 10:36,  3John 3,4,  Romans 8:6....etc. etc.

"This is speculation. How can Jehovah save only people when they are reunited at a specific point?"

Jehovah can save anyone, anytime, anywhere or situation.
I simply wrote that the gathering is a biblical teaching.
This may be true or it may be false.
Then the objection had to be: "Where is it written in the Bible that the people of God will have to gather in a specific place before Armageddon?"

Share this post


Link to post
3 minutes ago, Gnosis Pithos said:

It seems your hypocrisy! is being two-faced. If you have a problem being "sick" see a doctor, and take it out on him. Otherwise, it's just a fool's game not to include everyone in your contagious illness.

If you downvote, you could at least contribute to our discussions :)

Share this post


Link to post
38 minutes ago, Successor said:

For no other reason, there is no discussion!!!!

Most parts in your post were nice, and true, but had actually nothing to do with the discussion...

Share this post


Link to post

Thank you to the other contributors.

@Gone Fishing has presented excellent reasoning, @JW Insider counter reasoning, @TrueTomHarley realized all too soon this might me one of my "rants" that I don't raise anywhere else and that it could be the next topic for a letter to the GB that I never send, @Noble Berean went straight to the heart of the matter. Thankfully this post has been spared JTR's cartoons because maybe he has not discovered it yet, @Nana Fofana hit the bottle, Allen et al resorted to personal attacks and apportioning down votes left right and center.....so nothing new there, and last but not least Srecko with his obviously biased interpretation, and Bar Avaddhon with his complex interpretations and sometimes difficult to understand discourse but that is not his fault, Google translator needs to do a better job.

I don't have time right now, but when I do I would like to reply to individual posters in more detail...

Share this post


Link to post
54 minutes ago, Successor said:

What it means is, JWinsider, Anna, TTH, JTR, and others are NOT just commentators, they are also moderators,

To be fair, Successor, this category of 'Controversial Posts' carries this caution: 

Only enter this section if you feel strong enough spiritually to defend yourself biblically. As you probably are aware, not everyone on Facebook, Twitter and the Internet is nice and civilized. Some are rather rude. You are hereby forewarned.

True, there are two dozen ways to get in here, and nobody sees the warning. I didn't. And I  initially was as I think you are now: outraged to see villains on the loose in what is supposedly a JW-friendly site. If you stay (I'm not suggesting that you should) you should get more of a feel for what's going on. 

I AM just a commentator, with no more powers than you. I'm not so sure about all the the other liars, though. The chief mastermind you have not named and I will only give the hint that she is a controlling old biddy who drinks like a fish. Even she is in fear, as is everybody, of the dreaded @admin, but they needn't be. He is not interested in anyone's corporate agenda. 

Maybe you are right and the whole thing should be shut down. Unfortunately, this is the internet, where nobody is going anywhere. You will find you cannot change anyone here. During my tenure, i have not seen anyone budge even a little (well - in some cases maybe a veerrrryyy little). Only I have changed. I have taken to the bottle.

Like you, for the longest time I suspected this was a "good cop/bad cop" apostate site, the good cops luring them in for the bad guys to chop them off at the knees. I have put that suspicion in the trash, but Waste Management has not yet come, and I can always retrieve it if need be.  

As far as I know, no one has ever been banned here. @Allen Smith was sent to the penalty box once and he is still sore about it. I don't know the reason - it was before my time. He may have simply been carrying on too long. I understand the motivation to do so.

And I once had an entire thread taken down because I was being too mean to those I thought apostates. Like Hester Prynee, I had to wear a scarlet A for a time, designating 'Abuse.' (Hers, from the Nathaniel Hawthorne book was for Adultery) In both cases, though, they eventually were reconstrued as 'Angel.'

I'm just here because I like to write and I don't have a life, Successor.

Run - save yourself before it is too late, as it is for me.

"and it's been the ruin of many a poor boy, and God, I know I'm one." - Georgia Turner/Bret Martin

Share this post


Link to post
19 minutes ago, The Librarian said:

@Gone Fishing What were you trying to view when you saw that? Just curious.

I pasted the clip from a post which I reacted to. The poster responded to my comment as indicated in the shots below, but the post has now disappeared. Others quoted from it also, after me.

Successor 1.jpgSuccessor 2.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
1 hour ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Controversial Posts' carries this caution: 

Only enter this section if you feel strong enough spiritually to defend yourself biblically. As you probably are aware, not everyone on Facebook, Twitter and the Internet is nice and civilized. Some are rather rude. You are hereby forewarned.

To be fair, this topic is not under controversial posts, but under Bible discussion, because that was what I was hoping it was going to be....

Share this post


Link to post
50 minutes ago, The Librarian said:

@TrueTomHarley I am enforcing the no rudeness rule heavier than before.

Only enter this section if you feel strong enough spiritually to defend yourself biblically. As you probably are aware, not everyone on Facebook, Twitter and the Internet is nice and civilized. Some are rather rude. You are hereby forewarned.

Oops. Just noticed:

"To be fair, this topic is not under controversial posts, but under Bible discussion, because that was what I was hoping it was going to be...."

Sorry. I think

Share this post


Link to post
2 hours ago, Anna said:

Thank you to the other contributors.

@Gone Fishing has presented excellent reasoning, @JW Insider counter reasoning, @TrueTomHarley realized all too soon this might me one of my "rants" that I don't raise anywhere else and that it could be the next topic for a letter to the GB that I never send, @Noble Berean went straight to the heart of the matter. Thankfully this post has been spared JTR's cartoons because maybe he has not discovered it yet, @Nana Fofana hit the bottle, Allen et al resorted to personal attacks and apportioning down votes left right and center.....so nothing new there, and last but not least Srecko with his obviously biased interpretation, and Bar Avaddhon with his complex interpretations and sometimes difficult to understand discourse but that is not his fault, Google translator needs to do a better job.

I don't have time right now, but when I do I would like to reply to individual posters in more detail...

porkey.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
2 hours ago, Anna said:

Thank you to the other contributors.

@Gone Fishing has presented excellent reasoning, @JW Insider counter reasoning, @TrueTomHarley realized all too soon this might me one of my "rants" that I don't raise anywhere else and that it could be the next topic for a letter to the GB that I never send, @Noble Berean went straight to the heart of the matter. Thankfully this post has been spared JTR's cartoons because maybe he has not discovered it yet, @Nana Fofana hit the bottle, Allen et al resorted to personal attacks and apportioning down votes left right and center.....so nothing new there, and last but not least Srecko with his obviously biased interpretation, and Bar Avaddhon with his complex interpretations and sometimes difficult to understand discourse but that is not his fault, Google translator needs to do a better job.

I don't have time right now, but when I do I would like to reply to individual posters in more detail...

I also meant to mention @Melinda Mills who like me, finds  other poster's comments (not the rude ones) helpful and inspire her to do more research and "reason out a matter" .

Share this post


Link to post

 

On 11/25/2017 at 1:07 PM, Gone Fishing said:

Then 1Cor 10:31 stands. The concept of  judgement on whether humans are classed figuratively as sheep or goats is drawn from the parable which shows that judgement to be based on how they treat Christs "brothers" (Matt 25:31-46).. So, respect and solidarity for and with anointed Christians, and particularly the Governing Body, is a key component of the favourable judgement.

But if anyone thinks that just standing by an organisational arrangement serves as the sole ticket to Armageddon survival....well..... let me know how that works out, although the "probably" is starting to look a bit "probably won't" from here.

I am looking at a whole range of other scriptural criteria as well, (like Mic 6:8), on this issue, and I am going to continue to be very grateful for the provision of a shepherding arrangement to help and support me in the discerning and applying of those requirements. To me that is the part of the purpose of the congregation as described for example at Eph 4:11-16.

Yes indeed, "united we stand, divided we fall"

And I like this remark you make " I am going to continue to be very grateful for the provision of a shepherding arrangement to help and support me in the discerning and applying of those requirements".

On 11/25/2017 at 1:07 PM, Gone Fishing said:

On that basis I cannot see that encouragement to be obedient to instructions and directions by means of the Christian congregation through these crtical times would be in any way a sinister or underhand scheme to over assert authority, or to somehow direct attention away from our need to have complete dependence on the "one who can destroy both soul and body in Ge·hen?na".

I am not thinking this is a sinister or underhanded way to over assert authority, but rather I am:

1. wondering about the application of the scriptures that were used, using them to show that there will be, without a doubt, special instructions passed on from Jehovah to the Slave, then to the congregations, to preserve us alive.

2. wondering about the logic of such an interpretation. Just yesterday we were asked if our house could be used for a new field service group (as there is a need for another group because of the increase in the congregation) and I reminded the brother (tongue in cheek) that we don't have a basement and does that matter. (For those who don't know the significance of this it's from the idea that service groups will receive instructions for the survival of Armageddon (it used to be Book Study groups) and from the insinuation at the convention video where the (presumably) field service group were hiding in a basement). Then I get to thinking along practical lines. Each group is different, (location, publishers, some old and infirm etc.) and has different circumstances (different countries). Does that mean that "specific instructions" will be passed to each individual group overseers, or slightly more general such as  "those groups that have a basement go and hide in there, those who don't have one get with a group that does, those who don't have access to any basements go and hide in the woods, those that are not near any woods go and hide in the shed etc. etc. even then as one can see it would become ridiculous to give out even generalized instructions because of the infinite number of specific circumstances that exist for each individual all over the world. Or are we thinking each group overseer is going to receive personal divine instruction for their particular group? It all seems just far fetched and unlikely...and on top of that, standing on a somewhat shaky foundation, as another poster reminded us of the 2017 Feb WT where it mentions that the Slave can err....... in organizational direction. Also, when will there be time for the announcement of such instructions to the congregations, especially since the day will come as a thief in the night while we are "in the field, or grinding at the hand mill"?

3. wondering about the manner used, insinuating our prime motive for obedience is to survive Armageddon, rather  "our love for Jehovah and his sovereignty, appreciation for the ransom,  and our desire to please him".

 

On 11/25/2017 at 1:07 PM, Gone Fishing said:

So, I do believe we are kicking into the same goal are we not??.............:)

I like that. Yes! :)

Share this post


Link to post

@AnnaWell I know you probably mean this: "I am not thinking this is a sinister or underhanded way to over assert authority," but when you then say this: "insinuating our prime motive for obedience is to survive Armageddon", to use the word insinuating is a bit confusing to me in view of it's meaning. I definitely do not think the GB are making such an insinuation which would sound remarkably similar to the one made at Job 2:4. And I am sure you do not think that either.

You have raised a lot of logistical questions here regarding Armageddon survival strategies, but my feeling is that behavioural strategies are what are required more than anything at this time. The logistical stuff comes later and I am sure the GB will know how to delegate in this area according to local need. And I don't think one has to have a particularly sophisticated view of things in order to work that out.

Coincidentally, a couple of days ago some were discussing this very matter regarding Is. 26:20, around the role of Kingdom Halls in providing protection. Some rather narrow-minded views were expressed, but one older sister just casually remarked, "well it can't be about literally hiding in Kingdom Halls because they haven't got any in Russia, and anyway by that time they might be shut down all over the place" Everybody agreed that whatever means of protection Jehovah will provide, we'll have to be obedient to his instructions then, just like we are now, and any strangeness about those instructions will probably be in comparison to what those who don't trust Jehovah are doing at the time. (Compare 1Cor.1:25: "Because a foolish thing of God is wiser than men"). Wonder what Egyptians would have thought about what the Israelites were doing with sheep's blood on the night of the Passover, (if any were aware)? Ex.12:7.

By behavioural instructions that seem strange, I mean ones based on, for example, Matt 5:29 "Do not resist the one who is wicked, but whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other also to him." This is the kind of "strange " instruction that is going to lead to salvation, not tenting out in what's left of the Kingdom Hall car park! Or skulking through the countryside with grab-bags full of beef jerky, wind up torches, and bottles of water! (Although, who knows?).

Rest assured, "Jehovah knows how to rescue people of godly devotion out of trial, " 2Pet.2:9. It's working now through our obedience to the advice and counsel we receive. We have no reason to believe it will not continue.

:)

Share this post


Link to post
On 11/25/2017 at 11:27 PM, Noble Berean said:

Perhaps I haven't been very clear with my wording on this forum. I don't actually disagree with a Governing Body existing over the organization of Jehovah's Witnesses. That would be like me questioning why each congregation has an elder body. It is clear that the GB fulfills the role of an elder body over the entire congregation on earth.

What I take issue with is the unquestioned obedience that the GB demands. I have yet to receive satisfactory, Scriptural evidence for this view. Is this how the first century apostles perceived themselves? Any questioning by JWs is compared to the fatal murmuring of Korah and his associates, but Moses was a prophet for Jehovah God. When he spoke to the people, it was like God himself spoke. He was granted the authority by Jehovah to lead the Israelites like God. Jehovah made his divine support of Moses clear when he parted the Red Sea and performed many miracles in his name. When Moses spoke to the people with a thought generated by his own imperfect mind rather than God's, Jehovah actually removed his blessing of the Promise Land. The GB don't speak as prophets, and it is clear they often speak and direct with thoughts generated by imperfect, human minds rather than God's mind. They acknowledge that they have erred in their direction throughout the organization's history. So, how can they expect the same level of obedience that Moses received? It doesn't add up in my mind. Besides, it is Jesus who is the greater Moses and not the GB.

Now, you may say that prophets don't exist anymore, so it's unfair to expect prophets in this day and age. That's true. We no longer need prophets, because we have God's complete word in the Bible. I believe that Jesus Christ's leadership is expressed through the Bible. It trumps all human authority. It is the "check" to us all. The Bible stands alone. In my research, I pondered why Jehovah separated the roles of apostles and prophets into two groups in the first century. I have my own theory that Jehovah did so to prevent one  group from gaining too much authority--sort of like the checks and balances in the US government. But the GB acts as those taking the lead and guardians of doctrine. Instead of the Bible "checking" their authority as an independent entity (like an auditor), it has become completely intertwined with the GB. They have stated that they alone have been granted the capacity from God to properly interpret the Bible's message. So, no one else can use the Bible to check them, because they can simply discredit that individual by saying that he/she was not chosen by God to interpret the Bible. Therefore, their interpretation is invalid.

It's like when the gov't does an internal investigation...we roll our eyes. We know that it won't be too critical against itself, but instead create an outcome that is the most favorable. The GB has interpreted the Bible and structured the org in such a way that gives them maximum control and minimum accountability. They essentially play both sides of the fields: God's channel that deserves unquestioned obedience and the imperfect human group that err. Having to be submissive to a GB who play these 2 conflicting roles is very frustrating for me. I don't know how to work with them.

And while I've said a lot, I just want to be clear that I don't want to usurp anyone's authority--especially in God's religion. My questioning is how I make my faith and my ideology firmer. I'm a work-in-progress. I'm not so dogmatic to claim I have all the right answers. My views are evolving, and I appreciate the discussions on here.

I have noticed that as yet, nobody has attempted to answer any of the very valid questions and points you raise. Is this perhaps because there is no foolproof answer? I have heard many times Christendom say that certain unexplained matters are a matter of faith. That is why religion is a faith based organization. While I don't subscribe to the way they use this explanation (because it's more blind faith) we do have to have faith that Jehovah will surely not allow any lasting harm to come to anyone that serves him out of a complete heart.

I for one, appreciate your honesty.  I think we are all a work in progress in one way or another (including the GB). Always learning new things. This is why I posted this particular topic, because it is something that I wondered about, you may not be too bothered about it, you may have something else on your mind. I think most of us, if we are honest, have some topic that we do not see eye to eye. But rarely do we make a public fuss and tend to ride it out, wait on Jehovah and see what happens.

And also as @Gone Fishing pointed out Matthew 25: 34-40 “Then the King will say to those on his right: ‘Come, you who have been blessed by my Father, inherit the Kingdom prepared for you from the founding of the world.

    Hello guest!
For I became hungry and you gave me something to eat; I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink. I was a stranger and you received me hospitably;
    Hello guest!
    Hello guest!
naked and you clothed me. I fell sick and you looked after me. I was in prison and you visited me.’
Then the righteous ones will answer him with the words: ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink?When did we see you a stranger and receive you hospitably, or naked and clothe you?  When did we see you sick or in prison and visit you?’ 
In reply the King will say to them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.’"  Jesus tells us that supporting his brothers, which applies to the anointed, so the GB included (and by extension to all of us) is very important. This of course does not mean we will support something we believe is scripturally wrong.  Br. Jackson also  alluded to the fact that it is each individual's responsibility to "make sure" when he made this statement at the ARC, I quote: ": “Now, the Governing Body realises that if we were to give some direction that is not in harmony with God's word, all of Jehovah's Witnesses worldwide who have the Bible would notice that and they would see that it was wrong direction”.  @JW Insider made some good points in his comment regarding producing versus sharing/distributing spiritual food. There is nothing the GB can add to the Bible all we can do is share its message effectively, which can include using Bible aids.

This brings us to the notorious question of interpretation, but by our baptism, didn’t we agree with the interpretation? But also I think it has definitely to do with faith. We had faith that what we were learning was the best interpretation we had heard.  Hebrews ch 11 gives examples of all those who followed Jehovah’s instructions because they had faith "in things not yet seen". Abraham didn't even witness some of the things he was promised.  

On 11/25/2017 at 11:27 PM, Noble Berean said:

They have stated that they alone have been granted the capacity from God to properly interpret the Bible's message.

This is not strictly true according to Br. Jackson:

Q.   And do you see yourselves as Jehovah God's spokespeople on earth?  

Br. Jackson.That I think would seem to be quite presumptuous to say that we are the only spokesperson that God is using. The scriptures clearly show that someone can act in harmony with God's spirit in giving comfort and help in the congregations, but if I could just clarify a little, going back to Matthew 24, clearly, Jesus said that in the last days - and Jehovah's Witnesses believe these are the last days - there would be a slave, a group of persons who would have responsibility to care for the spiritual food.  So in that respect, we view ourselves as trying to fulfill that role.

also:

Q.   And the definitive interpretation of the Bible from time to time is the Governing Body; is that right?

 Br. Jackson: Ultimately, as guardians of our doctrine and beliefs, yes, some central group needs to make that decision, but that doesn't mean to say that we are just on our own   uunilaterally making those decisions without research and input from others.

also

Q.   I take it, too, that the state of knowledge about the

scriptures and, in particular, historical knowledge about

scriptures, also improves or increases from time to time?

 Br. Jackson:  That is correct.  But there are some basic things in

 the Bible that have not changed right from the beginnings

 of the Jehovah's Witness religion, and I won't take your

  time, obviously, going through those, but it is important

  to realise what are basic things in the Bible.  For

  example, is the Bible from God?  There is no possibility of

  us changing our viewpoint on that" end of quotes

 

It is those basic things that I think we can all agree on. They are the backbone of our faith/religion. As for those other things, we may have our opinion, without causing any upset, provided we don't go and harass other people about them or try and make them see it our way.

Sorry, I am going to have to continue this later....

 

 

 

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
7 hours ago, Nana Fofana said:

I'm not sure I understand what you're trying to say here or what was "explained very well", but if publications ARE- as called- "Bible-based literature" then you could say they are from heaven, couldn't you?

This two letter word you used - IF -  is very important in understanding this matter. :) 

Share this post


Link to post
7 hours ago, Nana Fofana said:

In the "talents" parables , the master does praise the 2 who turn out to have multiplied the money with which he had entrusted them.

We are not talking about these "parables". In fact IS IT any of illustrations, stories in the Bible -"THE PARABLES" at all?????? 

Parables as GB used in the past before they changed a view on Bible text - type and anti-type interpretations. Well also the "parables" are included in this changed position of GB scholars, i suppose :))) 

Share this post


Link to post
5 hours ago, Anna said:
On 11/26/2017 at 05:27, Noble Berean said:

They have stated that they alone have been granted the capacity from God to properly interpret the Bible's message.

This is not strictly true according to Br. Jackson:

Q.   And do you see yourselves as Jehovah God's spokespeople on earth?  

Br. Jackson.That I think would seem to be quite presumptuous to say that we are the only spokesperson that God is using. The scriptures clearly show that someone can act in harmony with God's spirit in giving comfort and help in the congregations, but if I could just clarify a little, going back to Matthew 24, clearly, Jesus said that in the last days - and Jehovah's Witnesses believe these are the last days - there would be a slave, a group of persons who would have responsibility to care for the spiritual food.  So in that respect, we view ourselves as trying to fulfill that role.

Dear Anna, is it possible that you say "this is not strictly true"??

GB claim that WT JWorg is "the only organization supported by JHVH, "the only true religion". How one religion can be as this if people who are leaders of "Gods organization" are not persons who have Gods guidance to properly interpret Bible and all in Bible?? What is needed for one person to be one who can interpret the Bible? Must be guided, inspired by holy spirit - that is first and last. Even for Bible writers is said that those humans was guided by holy spirit in such simple task as it is writing. How much more spirit, one person would need to have for interpreting and living by interpretations from him alone or from other who gives interpretations.

Now, we have to recall past self evaluation of WT leaders aka GB and how they look on such question from ARC and then go to present time to see changed view ( at least for every day using in front secular, worldly people) about unique position of GB (and all JW members too as part of organization) regard that question. Last thing what they said as answer for this and similar was: "WE ARE NOT INSPIRED ......"

If person (persons aka organization) is not "inspired" then he (or they) are not able to represent (to be representative) and to advocate for God as the only one and true member of the only one and true religion! 

Just my imperfect, uninspired and not unique opinion :))))

Share this post


Link to post
2 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

GB claim that WT JWorg is "the only organization supported by JHVH, "the only true religion

Dear Srecko,

To a greater extent, so does any other religious leader that claim that right for its church. So, what is the difference, by speaking in this terminology?

Share this post


Link to post
2 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Parables as GB used in the past before they changed a view on Bible text - type and anti-type interpretations. Well also the "parables" are included in this changed position of GB scholars, i suppose :)))

Dear Srecko

Consider the many changes Christendom has made, after the death of our Lord Jesus Christ. Has, the JW community changed scripture? or its understanding of scripture. These changes will continue as God provides clarity to those that are willing to accept and obey his commandments.

Share this post


Link to post
1 hour ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Just my imperfect, uninspired and not unique opinion :))))

This is an honest and commendable assessment, particularly in  that your opinion is not unique.

It was clearly expressed at the time of Moses, and differs little from what was said then about Jehovah's way of guiding his people. I'll only cite the one example.

"So they gathered together against Moses and Aaron and said to them: “We have had enough of you! The whole assembly is holy, all of them, and Jehovah is in their midst. Why, then, should you exalt yourselves above the congregation of Jehovah?" Num.16:3.
 

Share this post


Link to post
2 hours ago, Saladin said:

So, what is the difference, by speaking in this terminology?

Hi dear Saladin. 

You point out very good what in fact happening in JW religion. Leaders must openly claim in front of their members that they are "the only one". If they would not doing that way, what reason would people have to join this particular religion and not some other :))) who claim the same, hahaha. 

G. Jackson, by such respond in ARC, calls JW followers to look for possibility that "source for interpretations" is not only in GB but can be in some other people. He did not say Who that people can be, or Where they are, but because answer is gave to "non believers", they, ARC "non believers", can normally, logically come to conclusion how GB are in mood of accepting "inspired or non inspired" interpretations from other non JW people, and that they can be "spokesperson" for God, too. In some other organized or non organized religion or movement. But this GB wording is for public only. Members must obey, no matter did they have Bible in home or not, did they read it or not.   

GB leaders must use different terminology and sort of speech in front "worldly people", because they have different way on how to look at issue because they are not "believers nor followers of WT JWorg" :) 

Share this post


Link to post
On 11/25/2017 at 11:42 PM, Srecko Sostar said:

Also, GB by own retrospective self evaluation of food quality ("perfect food" vs "imperfect food") shows how they consider themselves not only as "producer aka kitchen chef" and "sharers aka distributors" of food BUT also as  inspector and controller of food quality. They appropriated the right to evaluate food - this right belongs to the Lord, Master.

Their version of a FDS is a far cry from a faithful “steward” who would gather provisions from all anointed sources, and distribute appropriately to those in need.

Steward –
 one employed in a large household or estate to manage domestic concerns (such as the supervision of servants, collection of rents, and keeping of accounts)

 an employee on a ship, airplane, bus, or train who manages the provisioning of food and attends passengers

 one appointed to supervise the provision and distribution of food and drink in an institution

 one who actively directs affairs : 

    Hello guest!

“The Lord said, 'Who then is the faithful and wise steward [of the estate], whom his master will put in charge over his household, to give his servants their portion of food at the proper time?  Blessed (happy, prosperous, to be admired) is that servant whom his master finds so doing when he arrives.'" Luke 12:42,43

Sadly, Wt’s “steward” “beats” his fellow servants into submission to their regimen. 

“But if that servant says in his heart, ‘My master is taking his time in coming,’(“overlapping generation” doctrine) and begins to beat the servants, both men and women, and to eat and drink and get drunk, (Jer 13:13; 25:25; Eph 5:18; Rev 18:3) the master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he does not know, and will cut him in pieces, and assign him a place with the unbelievers.  And that servant who knew his master’s will, and yet did not get ready or act in accord with his will, will be beaten with many lashes [of the whip].”  Luke 12:45-47

(AMP Bible)

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
8 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

You point out very good what in fact happening in JW religion. Leaders must openly claim in front of their members that they are "the only one". If they would not doing that way, what reason would people have to join this particular religion and not some other :))) who claim the same, hahaha. 

Dear Srecko

When have you seen the POPE be undiplomatic in public? Why do people in general move from being a Catholic to being a Protestant or Mormon?

There is nothing funny when serving God, and teaching others to serve God by scripture. This is not a nice attitude of any person willing to discuss scripture.

Share this post


Link to post
3 hours ago, Witness said:

Sadly, Wt’s “steward” “beats” his fellow servants into submission to their regimen. 

Dear Witness

This is a rude and not a civil attitude for a Christian to have.

If comparisons are to be made, then Scientology comes to mind.

Share this post


Link to post