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BroRando

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Gog of Magog...

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Gog of Magog in the Book of Ezekiel represents Satan's Entire Political system of things. It is Pre- Millennial. Once the Great Tribulation starts, Jesus separates the sheep and goats and then he turns his attention towards Satan's Entire Political system of things. Christ Millennial Reign actually begins at Armageddon, the Revelation Phase of his Presence. You can study the three phases of Christ Return to help with Spiritual Insight.

Satan's Earthly Organization has many facets and allies that work in its behalf to starve, maim, and kill anyone who refuses to receive its mark. "It puts under compulsion all people—the small and the great, the rich and the poor, the free and the slaves—that these should be marked on their right hand or on their forehead,  and that nobody can buy or sell except a person having the mark, the name of the wild beast or the number of its name." (Rev 13:16)

Soon, Gog of Magog will be no more.... and Satan and his hordes abyssed. After the 'time limit' of the thousand years comes to its end, Satan is released from the abyss and influences mankind once again to take on a rebellion. Those who reject Jehovah's Sovereignty as expressed by Christ and the 144,000 will gather Worldwide.

Gog and Magog comes about, as It is Post- Millennial. The conquest of Jesus Christ isn't over just yet, the War of Almighty God continues: "Now as soon as the 1,000 years have ended, Satan will be released from his prison, and he will go out to mislead those nations in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Maʹgog, to gather them together for the war. The number of these is as the sand of the sea." (Rev 20:7-8)

"And they advanced over the whole earth and encircled the camp of the holy ones and the beloved city. But fire came down out of heaven and consumed them." (Rev 20:9) "And the Devil who was misleading them was hurled into the lake of fire and sulfur, where both the wild beast and the false prophet already were; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever." (Rev 20:10)

'Next, the end, when he hands over the Kingdom to his God and Father, when he has brought to nothing all government and all authority and power.' (1 Corinthians 15:24) It's at this point that, Jesus Christ can once again make the claim, "It has been accomplished!" He will have finished his conquest to the full, bringing mankind back to perfection as to the time of Adam and Eve's perfect condition prior to their willful sinning.... Please act today and be sure to visit Jehovah's Witnesses Official Website.

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Let's get right down to the REAL nitty-gritty .... where the rubber meets the road. SCENARIO NO. 1: Someone with an I.Q. not much higher than a Cocker Spaniel with a headache, let's call him

Use your critical thinking skills. Who are the “holy ones”?  From your Insight Book, p. 1132 Christian Holy Ones. Persons brought into relationship with God by means of the new covenant

In a war, if you knew that the enemy was targeting your friend, wouldn’t you tell that friend it was time to get the heck out of the line of fire?  On the surface, the organization appears to be full

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2 hours ago, BroRando said:

Gog and Magog comes about, as It is Post- Millennial. The conquest of Jesus Christ isn't over just yet, the War of Almighty God continues: "Now as soon as the 1,000 years have ended, Satan will be released from his prison, and he will go out to mislead those nations in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Maʹgog, to gather them together for the war. The number of these is as the sand of the sea." (Rev 20:7-8)

"And they advanced over the whole earth and encircled the camp of the holy ones and the beloved city. But fire came down out of heaven and consumed them." (Rev 20:9)

Use your critical thinking skills.

Who are the “holy ones”? 

From your Insight Book, p. 1132

Christian Holy Ones. Persons brought into relationship with God by means of the new covenant are sanctified, cleansed, and set apart for God’s exclusive service by “the blood of the covenant,” the shed blood of Jesus Christ. (Heb 10:29; 13:20) They are thereby constituted “holy ones” (“saints” in KJ and some other versions). Consequently, they do not become “holy ones,” or “saints,” by decree of a man or an organization, but by God, who brings them into covenant relationship with himself through the blood of Jesus Christ. The term “holy ones” applies to all those thus brought into union and joint heirship with Christ, not to a mere few considered to have exceptional holiness. It is also applied in the Bible to them from the beginning of their sanctified course on earth, not being deferred until after their death. Peter says they must be holy because God is holy. (1Pe 1:15, 16; Le 11:44) All the spiritual brothers of Christ in the congregations are frequently called “holy ones.”Ac 9:13; 26:10; Ro 1:7; 12:13; 2Co 1:1; 13:13.

As the “wife” of Christ, the entire congregation is represented as wearing bright, clean, fine linen, which stands for “the righteous acts of the holy ones.” (Re 19:7, 8) Against these, while they are on earth, Satan the Devil’s symbolic political “wild beast” is seen in vision waging war. (Re 13:3, 7) Thereby the endurance of the holy ones is severely tested, but they conquer by observing the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.—Re 13:10; 14:12.

Where do you believe the “holy ones”, the anointed “144,000”,  will be after Armageddon, and a thousand years into it?  The Wt depicts them as being here:

Who Goes to Heaven? | Bible Questions

 

Do you really believe that God and Jesus will allow Gog and Magog to enter “heaven” and “surround the camp of the holy ones?”

When the enemy surrounds a camp of people, it usually signifies some sort of battle going on, or war.  Will that war be fought in heaven?  Again?  (Rev 12:7-9)  No, the scriptures make it clear that the camp of the holy ones are surrounded on earth.  Do you see this?  Can you analyze these scriptures with open eyes?

"Then I stood on the sand of the sea. And I saw a beast rising up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and on his horns ten crowns, and on his heads a blasphemous name.

 And he was given a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies, and he was given authority to continue for forty-two months. 6 Then he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme His name, His tabernacle, and those who dwell in heaven. 7 It was granted to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them. And authority was given him over every tribe, tongue, and nation."  Rev 13:1,5-7

The war of Armageddon is a battle of truth against lies.  Your organization and you, fight against the truth in God’s word.  I don’t think you realize your GB and elders would rather see all “holy ones” trampled into silence, than speaking for Christ. (Matt 24:15,16; 2 Thess 2:3,4; 1 Cor 3:16,17) Gog and Magog, aka the GB and the organization, are at “war” against truth in God’s word. Your GB member Davis Splane mentioned that JWs are at war.   They prefer to see the anointed who stand up against their organization (yes, just as Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego refused to bow down to Nebuchadnezzar’s idol) “killed” and silenced – which is the trademark of war; this one, is a spiritual war. (Rev 13:15,16; 11:1-3,7)

But, as hard as your leadership tries, we will not stay silent.  Rev 18:4-8

There is no uprising after the organization is destroyed at the coming of Jesus Christ.  (2 Thess 2:8; Rev 13:18; 19:20; Dan 7:11; Rev 20:9,10)

 

 

 

 

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Let's get right down to the REAL nitty-gritty .... where the rubber meets the road.

SCENARIO NO. 1:

Someone with an I.Q. not much higher than a Cocker Spaniel with a headache, let's call him T'MOOG, lives in the outback of Australia, eating termites, and standing on one leg to sleep at night. He has no concept of the Biblical Reference of Gog, Magog, or even of a Cocker Spaniel dog, Los Angeles Smog, or Kermit the Frog.

SCENARIO NO. 2:

Someone with an I.Q. in excess of 200 has studied Biblical Prophesy his whole adult life, let's call him ABNER EASTWOOD, and is one of only 23 people on Earth that has, or has ever understood completely what Jehovah has in mind .... including contingencies, ramifications, and subtle nuances in great detail.

He knows absolutely  everything there is to know about everything there is to know about Gog of Magog.

The fact remains that neither T'MOOG, or ABNER EASTWOOD can do Anything about any of it.

Nothing whatsoever.

Zip, Zero, Nada, Goose Eggs.

Meanwhile, ABNER is an unsufferable bore who beats others over their head with what he knows, and they care not at all, and is a truly miserable person. He has no joy in what he knows, as he is well aware THERE IS NOTHING HE CAN DO WITH THAT INFORMATION.

... and T'MOOG, who leads a very hard life, wakes up one morning, holding on to his spear, and puts both feet in the dirt beneath his bare feet, and like the Cocker Spaniel, looks out at the new day and realizes he is completely happy.

 

 

 

 

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7 hours ago, Pudgy said:

The fact remains that neither T'MOOG, or ABNER EASTWOOD can do Anything about any of it.

Nothing whatsoever.

In a war, if you knew that the enemy was targeting your friend, wouldn’t you tell that friend it was time to get the heck out of the line of fire?  On the surface, the organization appears to be full of good intent, with good leaders.  But that is where the holy ones are found, and the elder “shepherds” who have taken their place as priests, have been given the authority to tell them not to seek out other anointed, and not to study the Bible, as a group. To any reasonable Christian, this should sound tyrannical. (2 Cor 11:20; Gal 1:10)  These “shepherds” have the authority to judge the holy ones as unworthy of God’s spirit.  By representing the royal priesthood, they have as “Gentiles”, “entered” the Temple of God, trampling down a people with a flood of lies sourced from a false prophet’s mouth.   (1 Pet 2:5,9; 1 Cor 3:16,17; Eph 2:20-22) (Matt 24:24,25; Col 2:8; 1 Tim 4:1; Rev 8:10,11; 13:11,12,15)

Under the surface of what appears as righteous, the organization (Magog) is the deceitful enemy against the holy ones.  (Rev 13:1,2,5-7,11,12)  In light of this, we are told to do one thing - FLEE, and take as many as you can with you.  (Matt 24:15,16; Mark 13:14; 2 Thess 2:3,4,8; Rev 11:1,2; Luke 17:26-30; Rev 18:4-8)

That, is what you can do about it.

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You are conflating two different things, based on your AGENDA, which makes your logic and reasoning faulty ... and just plain wrong. A common problem growing worse every day among the general population.

On 12/8/2021 at 7:55 AM, Witness said:

In a war, if you knew that the enemy was targeting your friend, wouldn’t you tell that friend it was time to get the heck out of the line of fire?

This is the last sentence you posted that was even reasonable, but I have found that if people I care about are in the line of fire, and I yell "DUCK", they will invariably stand up and look around for a duck.

Lets say there are 8 million JWs in a world of say 8 Billion people. The global birth rate is expanding, and the number of JWs are decreasing. But that is not the point, and your points really have no points because they are MERELY the result of your fantasy driven obsession .... trying to make anything agree with your perspective on who the "Annointed" really are.

You ask, in a war, if you knew that the enemy was targeting your friend, wouldn’t you tell that friend it was time to get the heck out of the line of fire?

Not really .... there is absolutely no point to it, none whatsoever.

At Armageddon, whatever the means, and however it happens , say, oh .... global thermonuclear war with the Holy ones selected by God, perhaps individually protected by an individual force field .... the only thing I would do, if I could, is turn to whoever is beside me, and offer them a beer, and take out my iPhone 7 plus, and get some photos.

.... or perhaps instantaneously evaporate into 5 million degree gasses, beer, iPhone and all.

Whatever is the case ..... soon enough we will ALL know for sure ... and there is NOTHING we can do to change it, speed it up, slow it down, avoid it, or get into the fray.

....... patience Grasshopper!

 

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On 12/9/2021 at 9:29 PM, Pudgy said:

You are conflating two different things

 

On 12/9/2021 at 9:29 PM, Pudgy said:

ut that is not the point, and your points really have no points because they are MERELY the result of your fantasy driven obsession .

We all have an agenda and God does also.  The GB have the agenda to mislead.  To counter that, God "sends" his messengers, who tell the truth about their deceit.  It was always that way with Israel, and now with spiritual "Israel".  Jer 5:14; Rev 1:1; 11:1-3; Jer 23:29

 

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2 minutes ago, Witness said:

 

We all have an agenda and God does also.  The GB have the agenda to mislead.  To counter that, God "sends" his messengers, who tell the truth about their deceit.  It was always that way with Israel, and now with spiritual "Israel".  Jer 5:14; Rev 1:1; 11:1-3; Jer 23:29

 

Well, you certainly were not sent by the true God Jehovah by all your deceit. And you certainly are not spiritual "Israel" stirring up a witches brew claiming God's Name is not Jehovah. Can we assume the Christ is not Jesus?  Are there no Jews? You're FULL of deceit.

So because you are lukewarm and neither hote nor cold,f I am going to vomit you out of my mouth. (Rev 3:16)

 

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2 hours ago, BroRando said:

Can we assume the Christ is not Jesus? 

I don't assume that.  Do you?

2 hours ago, BroRando said:

Are there no Jews?

Are you saying there are no Jews?

Honestly, you come up with the strangest strawman arguments that aren't strawman arguments.  

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27 minutes ago, Witness said:

I don't assume that.  Do you?

Are you saying there are no Jews?

Honestly, you come up with the strangest strawman arguments that aren't strawman arguments.  

I'm pointing to your blatant hypocrisy of your witches brew when you denounced the Name JEHOVAH.  Claiming there is no Jevovah which proves you a liar.  No "J" would mean No Jesus, No Jews. Being a bigot suits you so well. Witches are cunning but not very smart, sorta dumb actually. 

Strong's Lexicon

The LORD
יְהוָה֙ (Yah·weh)
Noun - proper - masculine singular
Strong's Hebrew 3068: Jehovah = 'the existing One' 1) the proper name of the one true God 1a) unpronounced except with the vowel pointings of H0136

https://biblehub.com/strongs/exodus/7-1.htm

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    • @JW Insider Your summary is irrelevant, as I do not make any assertions regarding BC/AD other than their usage by scholars and in history, as you yourself have also acknowledged on numerous occasions, thus rendering your point invalid and evasive. The Watchtower leverages external viewpoints, including secular evidence, to substantiate the accuracy of their chronological interpretations. There are numerous approaches to dating events. Personally, I explore various alternative methods that lead to the same conclusion as the Watchtower. However, the most captivating approach is to utilize secular chronology to arrive at the same outcome. By relying solely on secular chronology, the pattern still aligns, albeit with a distinct interpretation of the available data. Nevertheless, the ultimate result remains unchanged. This is why when you get upset, when you are proven wrong, you, Tom, and those with the authority to ban take action, because you like others cannot handle the truth. In this case, your infamous tablet VAT 4956 has become useless in this situation. I do agree with you on one thing: you are not an expert, just like COJ. However, I must admit that this foolish individual was not the first to debate the chronology with the Watchtower and abandon it based on personal beliefs. He simply happened to be the most recent one that's on record.
    • This person will never give you a direct answer. He's beyond reasoning and only seeks to dodge the truth. The information about the tablet has been available for decades, but I chose to bring it up now to refute previous and current criticisms about the limitations of this tablet. The real issue is that he can no longer rely on this insignificant tablet. It's frustrating how much time has been wasted on accepting falsehoods from others.
    • Maybe I too should write a book called George vs Apostates but actually mean it. 
    • This will be my last point on this topic here, unless you continue to make further references to me, as you have done so many times already.  After what you have said above, this is a good place to summarize the most important points again. You say that the organization holds steadfast to the numbers in the Bible. This is true, because the Bible offers a fairly complete relative chronology with very few places where one must resort to interpretation to complete a relative chronology from Adam to Zedekiah, or even Jehoiachin's 37th year of exile, or at the very latest, 70 years after the destruction of the Temple, referenced in Zechariah 1:8 landing on the . . .On the 24th day of the 11th month, that is, the month of Sheʹbat, in the second year of Da·riʹus. . .).  So there is a long stretch of relative dates. But there are no BC/BCE dates in the Bible. There is no Bible-based way to connect any BCE dates to our day, or even to the time of Jesus. There are no indications in the Bible that would give us the BC/BCE dates. Even the WTS relies both directly and indirectly on records from Babylonian/Persian/Greek ASTRONOMY to link the Bible accounts to any BCE date. If we claim they are from unreliable records, then that means that our own claims about any BCE dates are just as unreliable. So it is wrong to say that the WTS stance is grounded in divine guidance. The Watchtower's BCE dates are grounded in Babylonian astronomy. However, the dates used by the WTS are cherry-picked so that astronomy-based BCE dates are accepted only as long they are AFTER about 560 BCE, and all dates PRIOR to 560 BCE only presented after adding 20 years to them. Personally, I have no problem with the claim that the 70 years of servitude to Babylon ran from 607 to 587. That seems to be the right time period supported by astronomy. [And I have no problem with the astronomy evidence that says Nebuchadnezzar's 18th year was 587, and the astronomical evidence that Darius' 2nd year was about 518, which would explain the other 70-year period mentioned in Zechariah 1:7-12] And if someone wants to start a 2520 year period from 607, that's just an interpretation. No harm done. But the astronomy evidence the WTS relies on to get 539 also shows that 607 was NOT the 18th year of Nebuchadnezzar's as we claim, but points to a year in which there was no such thing as a King Nebuchadnezzar. He didn't become king for another two years.  The claim that the astronomy evidence might be wrong or unreliable is one thing. But it's problematic to claim that only a tiny percentage of that data is correct. Especially because the part we accept is the part that is MOST prone to the errors the WTS makes use of to dismiss the much larger set of excellent evidence. We dismiss literally ALL the evidence which is not as prone to those same errors. We even say we can make "pivotal" dates from the more error-prone evidence, but that we must also ignore the better parts of that same "pivotal" evidence in places where we don't like what it tells us. If we merely claimed that the WTS has divine guidance and that's what it completely relies on, then that might be a difficult concept for some, but it would not be so problematic. It only becomes problematic when we try to impeach the very evidence we make use of. The WTS uses WT articles that try to show that the same evidence might mean two different things. That shows that we somehow "need" the Babylonian evidence to support us. And we have even followed Furuli's folly in order to make a FALSE claim about VAT 4956. This was really disingenuous, not just because  the claims were 100% FALSE, but because VAT 4956 is only one of a dozen different completely independent sources for the entire set of astronomical dates for Nebuchadnezzar's reign.  Of course, I can't fault any of us for not understanding this. Very few of us will try to look into it for ourselves. And I'm no expert, and I fell for the same bits of false reasoning that made me think we were right and the rest of the world was wrong. But it's those false claims that we are right because "the Bible tells us so" or that "divine guidance tells us so" that will continue to embarrass us for anyone who goes to the trouble to check out the evidence. As I said, I'm no expert, but it doesn't take one. It's a very straightforward thing to look up the astronomical evidence for ourselves and tell others what we found. Any junior high school student could do it. You don't need that much education. You don't need to be an expert. So there is obviously a reason that almost no Witnesses will ever go to the trouble of looking up any of the Babylonian observations we pretend to rely on. You haven't done it, or if you have you won't admit what you found. Scholar JW won't do it. The GB won't do it. The GB Helpers won't do it. JWs are intelligent. And yet almost none of them dare to do it. If they do, they don't dare admit publicly what they found out. There are just a couple of exceptions to that rule. And we see what happens to them. As for me, I don't think it's right to learn something and not be able to share it. I think that if we love the organization, if we love the brotherhood, and if we love Jehovah who is a lover of truth, we would share our concerns. We shouldn't want the organization to be embarrassed by having made a man-made obsession about something so trivial and unnecessary. The WTS should never have made such a big deal out of a secular, man-made set of dates.  As for me, I will follow Psalm 26: 26 Judge me, O Jehovah, for I myself have walked in my own integrity, And in Jehovah I have trusted, that I may not wobble.  2  Examine me, O Jehovah, and put me to the test; Refine my kidneys and my heart.  3  For your loving-kindness is in front of my eyes, And I have walked in your truth.  4  I have not sat with men of untruth; And with those who hide what they are I do not come in. ...  8  Jehovah, I have loved the dwelling of your house And the place of the residing of your glory. ... 11  As for me, in my integrity I shall walk. O redeem me and show me favor. 12  My own foot will certainly stand on a level place; Among the congregated throngs I shall bless Jehovah.
    • Can you explain why you consistently misinterpret his words? What's your purpose for doing so? Why are you distorting this ghost's 20-year presence with false representations? What is the reason for a runner 20 years earlier given your stipulation is 568 to 587 for VAT 4956 wouldn't mean to have a runner for a distance of 617 miles, considering that the tablet in question is believed to have been written or dated in 568? Are you saying you believe in magic like the Pagan Babylonians and somehow Nebuchadnezzar used telepathy to convey an order? So, if anything significant occurred in the 37th year of Nebuchadnezzar that is linked to 587 by this tablet that apostates and opposers use, Borsippa should also be taken into account for the year 587, except for the fact that you are referring to a distance of 617 miles and transportation back then was with either a chariot or horse and the mention of a king giving an order for Borsippa which is 617 away from Jerusalem as apostates state Nebuchadnezzar was in 587 can't be easily explained unless a runner is used or the King was home in Babylon. Those are the choices.
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