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What does a person have to do to survive Armageddon?


Anna

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2 hours ago, Noble Berean said:

Because in the first century, Jesus Christ was able to direct Saul/Paul directly to preach on his behalf.

Says who? Paul himself, mostly, plus a handful that could testify he had experienced some sort of religious experience, though they were not able to catch any of the words. Skeptics on this forum would not have been impressed.

 What if those first century Christians had refused to listen to him or read his letters, saying 

 

2 hours ago, Noble Berean said:

We know that Jesus Christ is our undeniable leader and we should "Listen to him" as it says in Matthew 17:5. Now, how should we expect to receive direction from Jesus Christ today and in the coming years? Is it direct from Christ or from a body of men acting as representatives for him?

Why could they not have reasoned similarly? Let Jesus speak himself, if he has something to say! Why could they not have refused to listen to Paul the Middleman? When the verse says "Listen to him" it is not speaking of Paul.

Perhaps there were some who did argue that way. I don't see why there wouldn't have been. Where are they now?

The good news enjoyed tremendous growth under Paul? Big deal. It has done the same under the direction of the GB, yet that makes no difference to critics here.

Practically speaking, what do you propose we should do if we allow no one to represent Christ, but insist on communication from Jesus himself?

 

 

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4 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Paul himself, mostly, plus a handful that could testify he had experienced some sort of religious experience, though they were not able to catch any of the words.

Jehovah God gave ample evidence to first-century Christians to verify the apostle Paul's divine backing:

  • In Acts 14:10 he heals a man so that he can walk.
  • In Acts 19:11-12 his handkerchief causes diseases and demons to be expelled.
  • In Acts 20:10-12 he resurrects a boy.
4 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Practically speaking, what do you propose we should do if we allow no one to represent Christ, but insist on communication from Jesus himself?

I admit that I can't dogmatically say that Jesus Christ has no representatives on earth. I just was trying to point out that in the Bible Jesus Christ doesn't need a centralized body to achieve his will, so it throws a wrench into the GB's theory Jesus operates in a pyramid, trickle-down structure. I do believe that Jehovah God has and is still using anointed ones to direct the preaching work and to direct his people. I believe that the anointed will become increasingly important in coming years as guides for his people. I do believe that the worldwide reach of the preaching work by the JW organization indicates that God's temple of anointed is associated with this organization (a religion established by anointed ones and still supported by anointed ones). I see the temple of God as the anointed ones--a people rather than a faceless organization that exists legally (2 Corinthians 6:14-18). God's temple is IMO not contingent on a legally created organization, but is a brotherhood that will exist regardless of what happens to the JW org.

I think the GB has made it pretty clear that we can only make it into the new system by closely obeying their singular direction. There's a very narrow pathway to get to the other side of this system of things, and it's tied to unquestioned obedience of the GB. The organization is very high control with no room for dissent. The GB has set it up that no one can question their direction under threat of expulsion. That alarms me, because when you have unchecked authority things usually don't go well. And I think it's also concerning that JWs don't seem to "...test the inspired statements to see whether they originate with God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world" (1 John 4:1). And I am one of those "loonies" that believe the Man of Lawlessness will play some role in the future.

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8 hours ago, Noble Berean said:

Jehovah God gave ample evidence to first-century Christians to verify the apostle Paul's divine backing:

  • In Acts 14:10 he heals a man so that he can walk.
  • In Acts 19:11-12 his handkerchief causes diseases and demons to be expelled.
  • In Acts 20:10-12 he resurrects a boy.

And Paul also said all these gifts would pass away. So it all becomes irrelevant to identifying divine backing today.

8 hours ago, Noble Berean said:

I admit that I can't dogmatically say that Jesus Christ has no representatives on earth

Then why keep doing it with the GB?

 

8 hours ago, Noble Berean said:

I just was trying to point out that in the Bible Jesus Christ doesn't need a centralized body to achieve his will,

He doesn't NEED anything. That is not to say it does not come in handy. Replace Bethel with a pile of rocks, and look to those to 'cry out.'

8 hours ago, Noble Berean said:

I do believe... I believe... I do believe 

My point is that your footing is much less firm here.

 

8 hours ago, Noble Berean said:

I see the temple of God as the anointed ones--a people rather than a faceless organization that exists legally ...JW org.

If anything, the JW.org disproves this. I see their faces all the time, whereas I never used to.

8 hours ago, Noble Berean said:

God's temple is IMO not contingent on a legally created organization,

Yes! As long as God's temple doesn't do anything, all is fine. Far better to meet in each other's basements. (caution: unnecessary sarcasm here, the language of you-know-who)

 

8 hours ago, Noble Berean said:

but is a brotherhood that will exist regardless of what happens to the JW org.

Yes. It will. Why not allow it to make hay while the sun shines?

8 hours ago, Noble Berean said:

I think the GB has made it pretty clear that we can only make it into the new system by closely obeying their singular direction. There's a very narrow pathway to get to the other side of this system of things

You think there's not? Didn't Jesus say something about 'cramped and narrow?' I think they simply don't want to be negligent. I don't think they know themselves how things will shake out beyond the hints from the scriptures. But whatever the caution be issued in the future, I don't think they want to see a brotherhood dominated by the sons-in-law of Lot, who imagine they are joking.

IMO, it is because of this that: 

 

8 hours ago, Noble Berean said:

 it's tied to unquestioned obedience of the GB. The organization is very high control with no room for dissent. The GB has set it up that no one can question their direction under threat of expulsion.

You have much exaggerated this, but everyone knows where you are coming from. Nobody would say your words are groundless, only exaggerated. This is among the most recurring themes of this entire forum.

8 hours ago, Noble Berean said:

That alarms me, because when you have unchecked authority things usually don't go well.

This statement strikes me as not unlike Peter's in the windstorm - panicking at the unknown and fear-inspiring. Congregation authority was pretty much unchecked in the first century, much to the dismay of Diotrophes and the superfine apostles. As so as the latter succeeded in checking it, it all fell apart.

8 hours ago, Noble Berean said:

And I think it's also concerning that JWs don't seem to "...test the inspired statements to see whether they originate with God

We do tend to go by rote. How 'concerning' this is is anyone's guess. They don't call them sheep for nothing.

8 hours ago, Noble Berean said:

And I am one of those "loonies" 

No.

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47 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Then why keep doing it with the GB?

There's many more anointed than GB members, but according to the GB salvation comes from strict obedience to them alone. Based on the increasing number of partakers...I wonder if a generation of younger anointed ones is rising up. This seems to be a worrisome trend to the org, because it throws a wrench in their current generation theory. Like I said, I believe the anointed will play a vital role in the future. But I digress...

1 hour ago, TrueTomHarley said:

If anything, the JW.org disproves this. I see their faces all the time, whereas I never used to.

I meant the faceless legal entity that exists in name only. It behaves like a person would...seeking it's best interests. But I'm concerned about the people and not an organization. 

48 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

He doesn't NEED anything. That is not to say it does not come in handy. Replace Bethel with a pile of rocks, and look to those to 'cry out.'

I get that he can do anything he wants, but I'm concerned about what he has done to verify what he's doing today. Do you think it's at all possible that Jesus could communicate with the anointed directly? And not rely on a centralized GB? If that were the case, would that be acceptable to those taking the lead? 

1 hour ago, TrueTomHarley said:

This statement strikes me as not unlike Peter's in the windstorm - panicking at the unknown and fear-inspiring. Congregation authority was pretty much unchecked in the first century, much to the dismay of Diotrophes and the superfine apostles. As so as the latter succeeded in checking it, it all fell apart.

Is it an unreasonable fear? If unchecked authority was what caused the Clergy class to form, shouldn't we be concerned about the unchecked authority of the GB today? "Oh this time just trust us." I believe power is always corruptive. 

1 hour ago, TrueTomHarley said:

We do tend to go by rote. How 'concerning' this is is anyone's guess. They don't call them sheep for nothing

It's concerning because the organization promotes a mindset of not questioning anything. That flies in the face of 1 John 4:1. Jehovah wants us to test the inspired expressions. The bereans were called noble for that reason. If it is the truth, it should stand up to critical thought. 

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Try to evaluate this "inspired expression".
If it does not happen, it's false.
Soon the preaching work will be suppressed, first in Russia and then all over the world.
The war that is about to burst (because it is about to burst) will lead to the victory of the northern king (which is currently Russia). The suppression of the preaching work will reach the whole world and the king of the north will "succeed."
The Governing Body does not say this, is not it?
Indeed, he said that "Jehovah's Witnesses have resisted all persecutions and will stand still now" (referring to the situation in Russia). 
If the Governing Body is right, then there is nothing to worry about (but we hope it does not happen again as in 1914 or 1975).
If, on the contrary, the people of God are made up of spiritual drunks, then they will have to wake up through Jehovah's "strange work".
Keep looking at what's happening - Joel 1: 5-8
Alternatively, to change, you could really study the Bible and understand what to do (without idolizing people above the Bible).
"What does a person have to do to survive Armageddon?"
You could study the Bible without preconceptions.
Perhaps even the last "stupid" is able to understand it if sincerely asks God to help - Matthew 11:25

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5 hours ago, Noble Berean said:

If it is the truth, it should stand up to critical thought. 

Oh? Jesus said any who would see life must eat his flesh and drink his blood. How would your 'critical thought' analyze that one? He lost a great many disciples that day. Probably it was ones who, like you, put their trust in critical thought.

'Critical thought' is the trademark of a generation that constructs a system that is swirling directly down the toilet, and yet proponents thereof project an air of superiority right until their heads go under.

Jesus could not have said anything more stupid if his concern was to cater to critical thought. It should be clear that he doesn't give a hoot about it. He violates its tenets all the time. He spins illustrations that he rarely explains. When he does explain them, it is not in a manner that would satisfy any advocate of critical thought. He raises strawmen as readily as he breathes. He launches ad homenum attacks willy-nilly. He speaks to the heart, in almost total disregard for the head. 

For every verse about the head, there are ten about the heart. People insisting on critical thought are the most obnoxious people in the world because each one assumes that he alone has a lock on the stuff. Critical thought is the main element of this world's wisdom that God laughs at.

Though I don't mean to equate the two, the current uproar over a Trump tweet illustrates the divide perfectly. I don't care how much I dislike @James Thomas Rook Jr. ; if he saved my kid from 10 years in a Chinese prison I would be on my hands and knees thanking him. A tweet that calls out ingratitude gets people stirred up because it speaks to the heart - everyone knows where gratitude is and when it is appropriate. But those who go in for critical analysis think the president petty for not letting it go. Doesn't he have more important things to do?

When Trump tweets that North Korea has launched all its missills, people of heart will run to take cover. People of critical thought will run to their computers to point out that the idiot can't even spell the word right.

THAT is my opinion of your 'critical thought.' As nearly as I can tell, it is Jesus' opinion. And God's.

Things that have been done on the GB's watch and on their behest - do the blessings outweigh the costs? There are costs - sometimes they are significant. Do the spiritual benefits the GB alone has enabled outweigh the costs? Or do the costs, invariably matters of personal rights curtailed somehow, outweigh the benefits? It is a matter of the heart. The head has little to do with it.

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10 hours ago, Noble Berean said:

Like I said, I believe the anointed will play a vital role in the future.

I am assuming you mean while still on earth since in heaven they will definitely play a vital role :). All the anointed I have ever known (and I have known quite a few) have been very humble people, never ones who pushed ahead and asserted themselves in any way. I cannot imagine that they would suddenly become something they are not. True, I don't now what kind of role you had in mind, and if this role would require some kind of miraculous intervention, since there are many congregations with not a single anointed person in them.

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1 hour ago, TrueTomHarley said:

When Trump tweets that North Korea has launched all its missills, people of heart will run to take cover. People of critical thought will run to their computers to point out that the idiot can't even spell the word right.

:D:D:D funny but true!

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7 hours ago, Noble Berean said:

Do you think it's at all possible that Jesus could communicate with the anointed directly? And not rely on a centralized GB? If that were the case, would that be acceptable to those taking the lead? 

Sorry, I know this question wasn't to me, but I find it interesting. As far as I am aware, Jesus doesn't communicate with the anointed (any anointed) directly. I believe all the communication is there for anybody to access, because it's the Bible. Yes, holy spirit is needed to help us understand the scriptures, but anyone can ask for holy spirit for that purpose. The only time in my opinion when there is any direct communication, is at the point when the person receives the heavenly calling. It used to be thought that the anointed would regularly receive some kind of divine flashes of inspiration or insight, but there is no evidence that the anointed, including the GB think that now. It seems that all true Christians have equal access to the Bible, prayer and holy spirit. 

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@Anna. Is all this discussion about this little piece of advice in paragraph 20 of Chapter 21 of the Kingdom Rule Book?

"As in the case of those ancient servants of God, our survival of coming events will depend on our obedience to Jehovah’s instructions. (Isa. 30:21) Such instructions come to us through the congregation arrangement. Therefore, we want to develop heartfelt obedience to the guidance we are receiving. (1 John 5:3) If we do so today, we will be more inclined to obey willingly in the future and thus receive the protection of our Father, Jehovah, and our King, Jesus."

For me the thrust of this is "Make it a practice to obey the instructions coming through the current theocratic structure in the congregation right now. Don't fall into the trap of thinking because you are safe today, you are safe tomorrow. "He that endures to the end is the one that will be saved" With regard to the end of the current system of things, similar situations have occurred in the past, but those who survived followed to the letter, and to the end, the instructions they were given at the time. If you take heed of their example now, then you will be well prepared to follow  instructions quickly and carefully both now and in the future, no matter how or by whatever means they are given, because your very lives are involved"

Bit like saying " Well, you're on the right plane, we're taking off in a minute, but there are some safety instructions I need to give you as we are expecting some disturbance on the flight. Don't be too concerned, we've never lost a passenger yet who followed the instructions to the letter. Here they are, please pay attention............"

Let's turn it around. "Do not follow any instructions given through the congregation, particularly those coming from the Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses, regarding any action that needs to be taken through the coming cataclysmic events that will accompany the end of the current system of things."

Let me know how you get on.

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1 hour ago, Gone Fishing said:

Is all this discussion about this little piece of advice in paragraph 20 of Chapter 21 of the Kingdom Rule Book?

Yes, including paragraph 19. But I think the thread might have digressed a little by now.

1 hour ago, Gone Fishing said:

Let's turn it around. "Do not follow any instructions given through the congregation, particularly those coming from the Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses, regarding any action that needs to be taken through the coming cataclysmic events that will accompany the end of the current system of things."

Let me know how you get on.

I think you might have misunderstood. I have no issue with following  instructions per se. None at all actually. What I am wondering about is the reasoning in par. 19 and 20 in relation to this. There are two questions that came to mind as we were studying the lesson at the midweek meeting (actually a week ago since I read on ahead last week). I already posted my line of thought in several posts above and you might have missed it, so I will just rearrange and copy and paste some of it here:

In those two paragraphs I was wondering if we might be going beyond what is written by going beyond the application intended for the scriptures that were cited: (Isaiah 25:20 and 30:21, 1John 5:3,  Zephaniah 2:3)( saying that "our survival of coming events will depend on our obedience to Jehovah’s instructions" and  "Therefore, we want to develop heartfelt obedience to the guidance we are receiving. (1 John 5:3) If we do so today, we will be more inclined to obey willingly in the future and thus receive the protection of our Father, Jehovah, and our King, Jesus") It makes me wonder, was this written for the purpose of reaffirming the Slave's God given authority over the flock at the present time?

Otherwise it doesn't seem to make sense to me that after those who are judged as sheep, and marked for survival then their survival (of coming events) will depend on their obedience to Jehovah’s instructions. I don't see anywhere in the scriptures where Jesus teaches this idea with regard to the final judgement. In fact I see the opposite "Then two men will be in the field; one will be taken along and the other abandoned. Two women will be grinding at the hand mill; one will be taken along and the other abandoned".

To me, it sounds awfully like some kind of soft threat you make to a child. What I hear when I read those two paragraphs is: “you better obey the Slave NOW, or you’re gonna die later.” And I am thinking, do we really need that? Are we presumed so shallow as to obey merely to save our hides? Or shouldn’t we be granted the dignity that our obedience surely has deeper motives than that?

 

 

 

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2 hours ago, Gone Fishing said:

Bit like saying " Well, you're on the right plane, we're taking off in a minute, but there are some safety instructions I need to give you as we are expecting some disturbance on the flight. Don't be too concerned, we've never lost a passenger yet who followed the instructions to the letter. Here they are, please pay attention..

Assuming that landing safely is the ultimate goal, that illustration is good, except what I think the Bible (Jehovah) is saying is; " Well, you're on the right plane, we're taking off in a minute, but there are some safety instructions I need to give you as we are expecting some disturbance on the flight. If you follow them,  you will land safely". And what the Slave seems to be adding is; "So when you have landed safely and arrived at the gate,  there will be additional instructions because without those you will not be able to make it into the building".

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