Albert Michelson

By bolstering numbers  I wasn't suggesting that  their goal is to get as many members as possible.  What I was saying is that the goal is to counteract the steady flow of defectors by increasing their attention on the young ones who are already associated.

He repetedly lies about disassociation being  an action an individual takes or that it is their choice to go through this process.  But this is a very interesting encounter and I think it gets at the crux of the issue. 

3 minutes ago, Anna said:

limit the amount of images which say basically the same thing, as these tend to clog up the thread.

Sorry, you guys are pretty reasonable as fare as admitting simple facts go. For some witnesses unless I show them 10,000 pictures of young JW kids getting baptized then it doesn't happen and I'm a liar. 

Same goes for almost everything else i say. They act like they've never been to a meeting or convention. 

6 minutes ago, Anna said:

If that were the case, then we could more efficiently and easily bolster our numbers by doing what religions of Christendom have done; water down the scriptures and tell the people what they want to hear and what is comfortable for them.

That's not how cults thrive, they thrive by convincing their members that they have a unique form of worship. 

And you may be right perhaps the bolstering of numbers isn't the primary goal. But you can't deny that witnesses love talking about the growth and how jehovah is "blessing the work"

27 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

was born into a Hindu religion, or a Muslim religion, I would probably still be Hindu or Muslim. This doesn't mean that Jehovah would necessarily judge me any differently.

 According to the society once Armageddon hits anyone who isn't a witness is dead. 

2 hours ago, JW Insider said:

A belief or teaching that we conscientiously hold does not have to be "thrust in the face" of someone who is not ready to accept that particular belief or teaching. This was a point that Paul made so that Gentile Christians need not offend Jewish Christians. This should be a big hint that doctrinal matters were not nearly as important as love and concern for one another. But it is important to note that on the issue of eating things sacrificed to idols, the Jerusalem "Governing Body" had included this specific item in the list of things they claimed that the "holy spirit and we ourselves" had approved. Yet apparently at some later point, Paul rejected that specific "burden" and said that this particular item did not matter to true Christians if their conscience allowed them to eat things sacrificed to idols.

 And yet witness beliefs are thrust in my face all the time.  This society constantly throws their beliefs upon others and demand that they accept them.  If this religion allowed people to leave  voluntarily  without  The threat of disfellowshiping for joining another religion or speaking about the reasons they left then the long list of false doctrines wouldn't bother me.  Like you already said no organization is perfect and no group has everything right. But humility should come in to play.  If you can't guarantee that 100% of what you teach is true then you shouldn't punish someone for disagreeing with you or for leaving your religion.  Even if you could guarantee that it was all true it still isn't the proper way to maintain membership.  Witnesses should be members because they want to be not because they know that they will be shunned if they leave. 

 I would also strongly disagree with you about the Jerusalem Council being a governing body and that their decision had anything to do with a biblical law rather than a temporary suggestion in  light of the consciences of the Jewish Christians. 

14 hours ago, JW Insider said:

have never believed that all the doctrines have to be in order as long as our motivations are out of love for God and neighbor.

 I never believe that all of them had to be correct either but the fundamental doctrines (the ones pertaining to the religion being the truth and the leaders being selected by God as his channel of communication) did have to be true in order for me to justify shunning someone for disagreeing with those leaders. 

 By your definition it really doesn't matter whether a religion is teaching the full truth or not as long as the people within it are honest hearted.  The early Bible students taught something similar but current witness doctrine states that no matter how sincere someone is in their religious believes if they are affiliated with a false religion or a religion that is teaching falsehoods then it doesn't matter. 

 I would be curious to find out from you what you believe the cut off is.  What percentage of the doctrines of a religion have to be false before it is to be considered a false religion?, and if your personal cut off is different from someone else's does that justify shunning that person?

1 hour ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Few things in this world are less tricky than one choosing to become a Witness.

It's actually extremely easy. One of the young kids in my hall was 10 and didn't know almost anything but her parents taught her all the right answers to the questions and she was baptized. I've seen it a hundred times. Simply  rehearse the answers and go through the questions and you're in. 

The Bible teach book doesn't even contain the words "Governing Body" and yet that's a fundamental teaching of jehovahs witnesses. 

JWs like to say that's it's hard to become a member but that's because it inflates their ego and makes them feel superior to other faiths. In reality most witnesses get baptized with a cursory understanding of the doctrines and most that I knew who had been in for upwards of 40 years still barley knew what the organization taught. It's not difficult at all. 

But as I've said repeatedly, even if it was difficult there shouldn't be a punishment for leaving after you learn that it's not true. 

14 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

One cannot do so without a lengthy period of voluntary study

 It wasn't voluntary for me nor was it voluntary for many of my friends who have since left the religion. 

 I just posted this in another thread so I'm basically quoting myself.

"

I usually try not to focus on the fact that JW's baptize young children because I believe that it's wrong to threaten someone of any age into remaining a member of a religion that they no longer believe in.  That being said one of the final straws for me was sitting in an elders/ms meeting  and listening to the circuit overseer her encourage the elders to allow young children to get baptized and insisting that they set the example by getting their children baptized. 

" we don't want to teach the friends that  waiting to get baptized is a good idea" 

" we want to capitalize on young ones interest in the truth" 

 Now I'm certain that he wasn't being malicious in the statements because he likely believed that getting them to join the religion was the right thing to do.  Nevertheless JW's are continually being encouraged to baptize their children at a young ages.  In some instances the society has even implied that if a child is in baptized by the time they're able to drive a car and they asked to get a license the parent should make it clear to the child that if they are at an age when they can drive then they should be at an age to dedicate their life to the organization. The most recent yearbook mentions an eight-year-old getting baptized. It's clear to me that Jehovah's Witnesses are desperately trying to bolster their numbers to counteract the flood of defectors.  It's also clear that their primary goal is to get children trapped in the religion as early as possible.  The sooner they can get them baptized the sooner they can start threatening them with family estrangement if they try and leave. And as I said before at the very least the society hopes that the threat of disfellowshipping will  keep those who do try to fade silent."

9 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

You just don't like the conclusions JWs have come to. It has nothing to do with the 'controlling' path they take, for it is far less controlling than that of the greater world's system of education.

 Last I checked you don't get shunned by all of your friends and family for choosing to leave college.  Or speaking out against academia. 

 You also made a false statement about the state of affairs when it comes to baptism. First off many of those who end up getting baptize are young children of Jehovah's Witnesses. So putting aside the deception that witnesses use to lure in new members  The fact that they indoctrinate their children and allow them to make a dedication before they have a chance to truly examine both sides of the issue is extremely manipulative. 

I usually try not to focus on the fact that JW's baptize young children because I believe that it's wrong to threaten someone of any age into remaining a member of a religion that they no longer believe in.  That being said one of the final straws for me was sitting in an elders/ms meeting  and listening to the circuit overseer her encourage the elders to allow young children to get baptized and insisting that they set the example by getting their children baptized. 

" we don't want to teach the friends that  waiting to get baptized is a good idea" 

" we want to capitalize on young ones interest in the truth" 

 Now I'm certain that he wasn't being malicious in the statements because he likely believed that getting them to join the religion was the right thing to do.  Nevertheless JW's are continually being encouraged to baptize their children at a young ages.  In some instances the society has even implied that if a child is in baptized by the time they're able to drive a car and they asked to get a license the parent should make it clear to the child that if they are at an age when they can drive then they should be at an age to dedicate their life to the organization. The most recent yearbook mentions an eight-year-old getting baptized. It's clear to me that Jehovah's Witnesses are desperately trying to bolster their numbers to counteract the flood of defectors.  It's also clear that their primary goal is to get children trapped in the religion as early as possible.  The sooner they can get them baptized the sooner they can start threatening them with family estrangement if they try and leave. And as I said before at the very least the society hopes that the threat of disfellowshipping will  keep those who do try to fade silent. 

 

2 hours ago, Nana Fofana said:

[Matthew 10: 34]  "Do not think Icame to bring peace to the earth;

 I came to bring, not peace, but a sword. 

For I came to cause division, with a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and adaughter-in-law against her mother-in-law.

 36 Indeed, a man’s enemies will be those of his own household.

 37 Whoever has greater affection for father or mother than for me is not worthy of me; and whoever has greater affection for son or daughter than for me is not worthy of me. 

 

  I always find it interesting that JWs try and use these scriptures to defend shunning  when in reality Jesus was warning the Christians of that time that if they left Judaism and began to follow him that their families would Shun them and cut them off.  His words indicate that if someone was intimidated by this threat and they loved their relationships with their family more than they loved him that they really weren't worthy of him. However he never encouraged his disciples to  shun their family  he is simply warning them that their families will try and use the threat of estrangement to keep them from joining the movement.

34 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Set yourself to undo it.

I am, I'm trying to raise awareness so that no one else gets tricked into joining this cult.

One cannot claim that the organization doesn't coerce people into remaining members when the are literally being blackmailed with the threat of family estrangement if they leave.

To add context this is the elders letter instructing them to disfellowshipped someone who has apostate beliefs.  Mind you this says nothing as to whether or not they are promoting their beliefs just that they have believed that differ from what this aside he says they need to accept.

however even if they were what's wrong with that? Don't JWs apostasize from their religious all the time? Why is it ok for  individuals to leave their respective religions, join the WT organization,  and speak out against their former religion but if someone who was previously a witness did this very thing then they deserve to be punished?

2 hours ago, JW Insider said:

for some, almost all semblance of Christianity goes out the window when something so basic to our comfort level is threatened.

Do you really think this has nothing to do with the organization and how they treat and degrade those who reject their claims? This attitude is a symptom of the WTs anti independent thinking rhetoric. Most witnesses (present company excluded) don't think for themselves but rather they allow the organization to tell them exactly how to think and what they can and cannot believe. 

3 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Read the entire thread mentioned previously before you jump in from nowhere and carry on about what has been covered already. It's only a few months old and the title makes clear which one it is. Add to that thread, if you must - you see any reasonable points uncovered.

I've looked and there's no thread attempting to debunk the fact that people are disfellowshiped for rejecting the 1914 teaching. Can you give me the title? 

2 hours ago, JW Insider said:

war, neutrality, morality, ransom, Trinity, hell-fire, torment, soul, spirit, sovereignty, outworking of kingdom in history, millennium, Armageddon, resurrection, salvation

I'll give you the first 9 (sorta) but the rest are false.

In reality it doesn't matter because every religion has some accurate interpretations and some false ones. However JWs seem to think it's ok to distroy families by punishing those who can't support them in propagateing falshood.  

1 minute ago, TrueTomHarley said:

For someone who says 'believe whatever you want I don't care,' you sure do seem to care a lot.

I care because I and thousands of others like me are currently suffering from the abusive policies of this high control group i.e. Cult 

1 hour ago, JW Insider said:

Even under the legalistic approach of the Flock book, if you can show that your goal is only to teach Biblically-supported teachings, then you do not fall under the category of "deliberately spreading teachings contrary to Bible truth."  Notice, too that causing division and promoting sects is always wrong but that it is not technically apostasy, per se. However, as the book correctly notes, "It may involve or lead to apostasy."

And yet so many have lost their families for doing that very thing.

2 hours ago, JW Insider said:

However, I still find that all the important core doctrines fit the Bible much better than any other set of core doctrines I have seen anywhere else. (war, neutrality, morality, ransom, Trinity, hell-fire, torment, soul, spirit, sovereignty, outworking of kingdom in history, millennium, Armageddon, resurrection, salvation) I question plenty of other things too, but do not reject them outright.

You're ignoring the fact that wether you like it or not the society's stand is that the 1914 teaching is a core doctrine. 

"Approved association with Jehovah’s Witnesses requires accepting the entire range of the true teachings of the Bible, including those Scriptural beliefs that are unique to Jehovah’s Witnesses. What do such beliefs include?

That the great issue before humankind is the rightfulness of Jehovah’s sovereignty, which is why he has allowed wickedness so long. (Ezekiel 25:17) That Jesus Christ had a prehuman existence and is subordinate to his heavenly Father. (John 14:28) That there is a “faithful and discreet slave” upon earth today ‘entrusted with all of Jesus’ earthly interests,’ which slave is associated with the Governing Body of Jehovah’s Witnesses. (Matthew 24:45-47) That 1914 marked the end of the Gentile Times and the establishment of the Kingdom of God in the heavens, as well as the time for Christ’s foretold presence. (Luke 21:7-24; Revelation 11:15–12:10) That only 144,000 Christians will receive the heavenly reward. (Revelation 14:1, 3) That Armageddon, referring to the battle of the great day of God the Almighty, is near. (Revelation 16:14, 16; 19:11-21) That it will be followed by Christ’s Millennial Reign, which will restore an earth-wide paradise. That the first to enjoy it will be the present “great crowd” of Jesus’ “other sheep.”—John 10:16; Revelation 7:9-17; 21:3, 4."

My issue isn't with the doctrines. Believe whatever you want I don't care, my issue is with the fact that those who can't keep teaching what they know to be false are punished. 

The primary issue is that you simply can't  be a witness and not believe in the 1914 teaching.  Because the 1914 teaching is the only justification that the organization can give for destroying families and punishing people for disagreeing with them.  If they are not appointed by God and if they are not gods spokesman then it shouldn't be an issue when someone contradicts them or disagrees with them.  Unfortunately in a master class of arrogance they decided to punish and expel anyone who doesn't agree with their opinions about what the Bible says.

this elders letter is still the current stance as far as I know  and they make it very clear that simply believing something that contradicts the organization's position is potential grounds for disfellowshiping.

 I don't think he ever claimed that they all knew it was false.  The governing body of his time may have known that it was probably wrong but I seriously doubt the current body does.  In fact I personally doubt that many of the current governing body are even educated enough and adequately informed to know what the issues with the 1914 teaching are. 

 But what they know really doesn't matter because whether or not they know that they were never apointed doesn't make a difference in determining that they never received an appointment from God and therefore they are not gods spokesman and therefore rejecting them and leaving their religion is not the same as "leaving Jehovah"  as witnesses often put it.

 I'm sure there are many at Bethel who do know it's not factual. 

 But as I've said before and as I'm guessing you're already aware.  The organization knows that it's 1914 teaching and it's claim to be in God's representative's is  demonstrably false.  The only way that they can maintain a parishioner base is to blackmail their members into either remaining part of the group or remaining silent if they leave. 

 The primary reason Jehovah's Witnesses are called a cult is because of the emotional  blackmail that is used to keep people in the organization even if they don't believe. 

I agree,  The only issue is that you are in support of an organization that regularly violates human rights and actively persecutes people  Who cannot continue to worship in a way they see as unfit. 

 You just mentioned the persecution Jehovah's Witnesses are facing in Russia . Now I strongly detest the mistreatment those people  are undergoing.  However even though Jehovah's Witnesses will fight for their right to  openly express their religious beliefs they actively deny that right for others.