JOHN BUTLER

I'm thinking of buying a MEGA cap. It's the English version

Kid, most sensible people know what people in the world are like. Sensible people do not trust politicians for instance. But, some sensible people do not know how bad the JW Org is, because as Jesus put it, they wash the outside of the bowl or dish but not the inside. Hence with all the secrecy in the past, the JW Org looked clean to outsiders. That is why ex-JW's like myself make it known how bad the JW Org is on the inside. Until 2017 I knew nothing about the Pedophilia problem within the JW org. Many JW's still don't know anything about it. But it has been a serious problem for over twenty years, and the GB / Org kept it hidden. It's not about hatred, well not from my side of the fence anyway, you quite often seem to show aggression. It's about warning others and trying to get justice for Victims. Victims that you seem to be calling liars. As for the UK government, it has been made known publicly about child abuse and Pedophile rings within the UK government. Even to the point of saying that it is believed children have been murdered. However my concern is about Christianity. That is, serving God through Jesus Christ. As an individual i cannot do much to help victims of abuse but i can give warnings about the things i know. As for how to serve God properly, I'm lost on that right now, but it would be stupid of me to go back into the mire just because i don't yet have a different direction. As for your idea of hypocrisy and double standards. It's like this for me, I know nothing about the UK government, only what I read online etc. Whereas I've had many years first hand experience of the JW Org, so i can speak from my own experiences. Although I've only known about the Child Abuse situation since 2017, i can compare it to the way I've seen other matters handled in various congregations. I know you don't believe anything i say, but that is your choice, if you wish to remain blind. However I know that i speak truth and other people have the choice to believe me or not. It would be more stupid of me to comment about the UK government of which I have no first hand experience.

Why compare what happens in the world. The JW Org is supposed to be no part of that world. You and others miss the whole point of it. You pretend the JW Org is better, but truth is the JW Org is no better.

Keep playing that same old record to yourself Kid, you might convince yourself one day. Who was the member of the GB that said 'It's all Apostate lies' Well Kid you are doing just the same. You are just a puppet to the GB and it's Org. But if that keeps you happy so be it.

I see that some people on here do not like the truth i speak about the JW Org and it seems that in order to try to have me removed they are pretending that I am racist. @admin Can we put a stop to these accusations against me please. I am not racist but it's a well known thing that if enough people say that i am then it will start to be believed. It is most unfortunate that some people cannot lose a discussion without some sort of reprisal.

@Anna Quote "So it's the size?" Each case of child abuse is bad enough and I feel for the victims and their families. However one or two cases by ordinary congregation members could be understandable. But the size of the problem in the Org, along with other things that i had left in God's hands, in other words other things that were /are wrong in the Org, just proved to me that JW Org is not what it is supposed to be. As for your comment " Unfortunately this is to be expected with the kind of morality promoted by this world ruled by Satan. " No it should not be expected. Everyone in the Org should be 'no part of the world'. And if the JW Org was God's chosen organisation and if the Elders were chosen with God's Holy Spirit, the Elders would be God fearing men that serve God not served their own flesh. And " those who are having to deal with it." are often those that are causing it, the Elders. Quote "Can you explain what you mean please, not sure I understand " When I wrote a letter to the Body of Elders, i meant it to be read by the Body of Elders, not just one or two Elders.. And when i was summoned to appear before the Elders, I expected to appear before the complete Body of Elders. If that had happened then the complete Body of Elders would have been aware of the situation. And I do not think that the one Elder would have threatened to disfellowship me. The case would have or should have been dealt with properly / fairly. The information would not have been hidden and the Elder that i accused would have had to answer for his sins.... However when I spoke to a different Elder, on an occasion when he came to visit me, he said he didn't know anything about my letter or about the situation. So was God in control of that situation, NO, Men were in control of that situation. Why ? Because the GB or someone in authority has allowed situations to arise that way. If the rule was that the whole Body of Elders had to be present in serious cases, then my case would have been heard properly and justice would have been done. Hence when i 'resigned' from the Org, i sent text messages to as many Elders as i possibly could. That way most of them knew the situation and the reason for it.... When the GB / Org says go and tell an Elder, my advice would be Tell every Elder in the congregation, not just one or two. That way the whole Body of Elders would know every serious situation within their congregation.

Please. Watch the Language, Butler. A man who seeks God knoweth well to not defile his mouth... Sorry Space Merchant.

I think both pictures are horrendous. I'm glad i don't have to dress like any of them anymore. Top photo is a strange fashion but the bottom photos looks like they are going to a dinner party or something, all those bow ties and all. Urr, suits and ties, horrid things. Not natural, not natural at all Give me a polo shirt and jeans any day.

You want everyone to kiss arse then

Quote, "I don’t know or want to know what fantasy world you live in, but it’s time to come back to earth. 😊 " Fantasy huh. You are the one that pretends he is a cowboy ! Kid. And you do seem to get angry, calm down Kid.

Keep up the insults Kid it just proves I'm getting through to you. . You think about 'shooting down every conceivable argument from opposers and ex-witnesses' in your dreams. Unfortunately for you there is now enough evidence Earthwide about the wickedness in JW Org, that is cannot be hidden. You and others are only proving that you do not serve God, but that you serve the GB and it's wicked Org. Unless God, through Jesus Christ, decides to clean out that wicked JW org, then it will have no chance. I'll wait and see how it goes but I'll remain active in warning others about the Child Abuse/ Pedophile situation in the JW Org. It's the Christian thing to do to protect children from abusers.

Well actually I hope whistleblowers carry on posting as much info as they can get hold of. And Kid, all of your attempts to make the JW Org look so pure and good are a complete failure in the eyes of many people. As for your word 'activist', once again it is only a word. A bit like the word, homophobic. People just love putting 'tags' on other people. I think it has been well established by now, how bad the JW Org really is. How it is full of people, mainly men, that have ulterior motives. Well in my opinion, if it really was God's chosen 'religion' then God would chose the Elders and they would be men of good hearts, not men with ulterior motives. This brings us to the Governing Body. If as it seems God does not chose the Elders, and God does not supply His Holy Spirit to congregations, then if could well follow that God does not chose the members of the GB. Hence the GB men could have hidden pasts and ulterior motives. It's no good printing up what the elders of JW Org should do Quote "When elders receive reports of physical or sexual abuse of a child, they should contact the Society's Legal Desk immediately." Because it seems quite clear that Elders have not done the things they should do. And many Elders have in fact done things they should not do. Keep up the propaganda Billy, you seem to love it all. Um, maybe you are an activist Well you seem to like the word.

@Anna The situation I was telling you about happened over ten years ago and has affected my life ever since. I left the JW Org last year and you know why...... So, I was leaving that matter with God, as i had left many other matters with God. But when the size of the Child Abuse problem became known to me, then I decided that this cannot be God's true organisation. You are saying yourself how bad many Elders are. The GB / Org has made it easily possible for Elders to dictate the complete running of a congregation, as you seem to have said above. THe GB / Org has given Elders the right to choose what they will believe and what they will call lies. THe GB / Org has allowed a situation whereby not all Elders in a congregation are made aware of situations, such as the situation I have mentioned. The two witness rule can squash many things before they are even investigated properly. It also seems that the GB /org has given Elders the right to destroy written evidence of cases/situations. Is it any wonder why brothers and sisters take each other to the courts of the outside authorities ? You yourself have said many Elders cannot be trusted. Your words "corruption, favouritism and nepotism by elders". And with all the above being true, then how can God look with favour on such a wicked organisation ? Remember Jesus called people wicked. So to call the Org wicked is not sin. Finally, i think you, Tom and others should get it into your heads that A PERSON CAN LEAVE THE JW ORG BUT IT DOES NOT MEAN THEY HAVE LEFT GOD OR JESUS CHRIST. So your question of " Or have you lost trust in Jehovah too? " has no meaning to me. I rarely call God by that name anymore, as I'm still happy with Yahweh or Almighty God and i pray through Jesus christ as God's word says we should.

Quote @Anna " Why would one try to prevent the removal of someone who causes harm in the congregation? " Let me give you an example which unfortunately i cannot give you full details of as it's much too personal. BUT :- I reported an Elder for doing something very wrong. In fact that Elder used his position of Elder to do that wrong. He basically acted like a Catholic priest, using his 'authority' and thinking he would not be questioned. I reported him by writing a letter to the Body of Elders. However it seems, if other elders tell the truth, that the whole body of elders didn't get to see the letter. So I was called to the Kingdom Hall for a meeting with the 'Elders', but when i got there only two Elders were there. One questioned me whilst the other sat behind me and just listened and probably took notes. The one questioning me didn't listen to my replies, just butted in and said I would be disfellowshipped for slander if i didn't retract all the accusations I was making. Yes i stated all this before i know. BUT: - The Elder I was accusing and the Elder questioning me were the only two Elders in the congregation that were 'businessmen'. The Elder i was accusing had shares in a Gold Mine, and the Elder questioning me owned / owns around ten properties, one of which is a farm. Those two Elders were good friends, not just brothers in the Org, they had more in common than that. So the Elder questioning me made sure that he didn't listen to me, so that he didn't have to take any action against the other Elder. Instead he threatened me with being disfellowshipped. So please don't ask such a silly question as " Why would one try to prevent the removal of someone who causes harm in the congregation? " Because the simple answer is that that in many cases it is Elders protecting other Elders. You and others talk to me as if i've had no experience in the JW Org. But I've had years of it, and I know of other things which I just cannot mention on here as it would get other people into trouble. And I would think here in the UK is very tame compared to America. I really dread to think of what goes on in American congregations. The things hidden between Elders in the USA must be much worse than here.

It's 10.15pm and I have washing up to do, then bed. Goodnight from me in England Sorry to leave this interesting conversation.

I don't think it gives specifics. And it talks about pagan judges, when God has put them judges in their place to do God's work as scripture tells us. So the GB / Writing dept' are actually going against God's rules.

Thanks for posting that. It doesn't prove anything you said, in fact it indicates this may be "all apostate lies" While the BBC’s report is correct that all Kingdom Halls were given direction about the destruction of certain internal documents, ..

I did post a video that was in an article.

@Anna So it looks to me as if you are showing evidence here from a 1973 Watchtower that the GB or the Writing department said : And by dragging fellow believers before pagan judges, they would bring great reproach upon God’s name whether the congregation could still come into disrepute However, if any member of the Christian congregation, without regard for the effect of his action on the good name of the congregation, ignores the counsel from God’s Word on this matter, such one would not be “free from accusation” as a Christian. He would not be one who has “a fine testimony from people on the outside” of the congregation. (Titus 1:6; 1 Tim. 3:7) He surely would not be an example for others to imitate, so this would affect the privileges that he might have in the congregation. Complete with threats too. would not be “free from accusation” this would affect the privileges that he might have in the congregation. And this was in a Watchtower. I think that is proof enough thank you. So how can anybody say that this direction did not come from the 'top', the GB is supposed to proof read this stuff yes ?

https://www.philly.com/philly/news/jehovahs-witnesses-child-sexual-abuse-records-destroy-satan-video-20180709.html

http://watchtowerdocuments.org/bbc-reports-did-jws-destroy-evidence/ I'll look for the video, it's been posted on this forum before. https://www.philly.com/philly/news/jehovahs-witnesses-child-sexual-abuse-records-destroy-satan-video-20180709.html This is the best i can find at the moment

This is why Elders are admonished not to interfere with the secular authority's investigation. So was the video of the brother telling Elders to destroy evidence because 'Satan is coming after the Organisation', true or false ?

According to court transcripts, and testimony from Witness victims and their families, this is patently UNTRUE, This was my feeling too @James Thomas Rook Jr. . So which is it. Did the GB / Wt / JW org tell the Elders to tell congregants not to report ? Or, Did the Elders, of their own initiative, tell congregants not to report ? Or, is every victim and victim supporter telling complete lies ? If it is proven that this 'order' did not come down 'from the top', then should individual Elders be sued by victims ? And in my opinion, if someone has complete knowledge about a CSA incident, though not being the victim, they should still report it to secular authorities. However I'm talking about knowing all the details and having first hand information. Quote "However, what business do you think you have with an individual's decision to talk to secular authority" What that individual does is their choice. But protecting children should be everyone's responsibility. A Christian attitude i would have thought.

Seems to me that the W/t has said anyone can report anything they want to any authority and not be in trouble for it, yet now it seems Billy is saying 'mind your own business'. Contradiction me thinks. If every one just turned the other way and minded their own business then no murderers would be caught, no Peodphiles would be caught, no criminals would be caught at all. And i personally think that everyone should watch and question the leaders of their faith. It's a bit like the Police that keep an eye on people, but who is keeping an eye on the Police ? So it is with the GB right down to the Elders. They keep an eye on the congregations, but who keeps an eye on them ? Sorry Billy not with you on this one. And if the Watchtower 'had been on top of certain situations' then certain situations would not be costing the JW org / Watchtower so dearly now. Not just in money but in reputation. Most of you would have seen the latest news about the Catholic man of 'high standing' and his past deeds. Yet do you ever consider that a member of the GB may have a similar past ? So easy to condemn people of a different religion, but it must hurt to even consider it of your own religion.

@Anna I'm laughing Anna. You really do seem to sit on both sides of the fence, or maybe you are the sensible one looking at things from both sides. However your last comment is very judgemental of lawyers with no proof to back up what you say. Yes I suppose it is good money making for them, but then the Victims need a good lawyer if they are going to achieve anything. I would think the JW Org has good lawyers, so good they are prepared to tell lies in court it seems. Or at least bend the truth to suit themselves. As for the victims getting less than the lawyer, very doubtful as surely the lawyer can only take a smaller percentage. Any sensible person would want in writing exactly how much they would receive before settling out of court.... The Victims are not stupid people, they are just people that made the mistake of trusting some JW's at the time. As for, 'abusers don't have that kind of money'. In my opinion abusers should be 'wiped out' financially. Obviously it would have to be proved without any doubt that they were guilty, but then take all they have and leave them penniless. A totally non Christian viewpoint i know but ................ I don't think Jesus meant forgiving Pedophiles 77 times. JTR Jr who would take part is a duel between the pedophile and the victim. The Victim has already suffered enough. Why not just hang the pedophile . Joking of course.