JOHN BUTLER

@JW Insider Yes I'm upset that you choose to point it out. You are talking like an Elder. This isn't one of your Kingdom Halls so don't try to dominate me. Have you ever read Billy the Kid's comments, saying that I need medical attention ? That's ok is it ? And TTH has mentioned my past situation causing me problems etc. My comment to Anna was about her comment not about the video. OK, let's get down to basics. what exactly was Anna saying about people that reject the JW Org ? She was saying that ex-JW's rejected God's standards. I'm an ex JW so does that include me ? Anna was saying that ex JW's are not good enough to serve God. That is just what the GB and JW Org want people to believe. It's part of the brainwashing. It stops many JW's asking any questions. I was hurt by Anna's comment and I'm equally hurt by yours. But then you are both JW's so what more should I expect. I think TTH has said this is basically an open forum and we must all accept what others say. Things hurt me and I try to 'let it go by' (quoting Joe Cocker) but I don't expect people to talk down to me as if they are an Elder in a KH. Are you an elder ? Your name makes me think you are a 'spy' 'Insider'. Whistleblower. But probably an Elder too. Maybe you should stay in the 'Private Club' which is probs more 'soft' for you. If @admin thinks I'm out of line I'm sure they will give me a warning or ban me from the forum.

@Anna I cannot believe you said / wrote this. Are you drunk ? I left the JW Org because of God's high standards. Because the GB and it's Org are going against God's high standards. Are you totally blind to the Child Abuse within JW Org ? Are you blind to the shunning of people that leave the JW Org for the right reasons ? Are you blind to the lies / misuse of scriptures / changing of use of scriptures ? Do you think JW's have a higher standard of morals than other people ? Are you so blinded by the smokescreen of hypocrisy in the JW Org ? Are you so dominated by those 8 men in charge and by the Elders that act as policemen ? Sorry Anna, I think that your comment is so naive.

I was going to add this to another topic but remembered we are told to start new topics, so I've done that. Hope this hasn't been added before but it would take me a month to go through all the topics to see if its on here. It is about the baptism of children, but I also thing it involves making children go on the ministry. http://aawa.co/blog/baptism-of-children-the-issue-of-consent/?fbclid=IwAR1cwfrLr1EizagDGhW0Z_7IZV3TtWPq3CpjidqhiS6bqYZVWirxI-oK01s#comment-2071

Possibly, but many young children are just not ready to be that 'brave', to speak up. Many have not made the personal relationship with God that is needed. And maybe some of them do not know if what they are told to say is actually true. After all the JW ministry is about doing as you are told isn't it ? A JW is not allowed to go to the doors with their own opinion, they must only go to the doors with the message that are told to give, some of which has proven to be untrue. When a JW learns that the message keeps being changed then even a sensible adult will wonder if any of the JW teaching is true. So who can blame a child that is not convinced by the JW Org.

That is not Jesus actually sending out children to preach from house to house in the way that JW's do it. 'the boys who were shouting in the temple'. So where is a scripture that says Jesus sent out children into the house to house ministry ? We can all find scripture and then make it serve our purpose. The GB and the Writing Department do it all the time. But it does not make it right. Many children hate the ministry work and they also hate having to take literature into school to give to the teachers etc. A few may of course find it fun, buy many hate it.

@Space Merchant Quote "That being said, take your blame with the Bible, if it irks you this much if you think it commits to suffering." The Bible does not cause suffering, the misuse of it does. The GB leaders of the JW Org and the Elders of that Org cause suffering. The parents that demand their children go and preach also cause suffering mentally and emotionally to their children. Jesus sent out his followers to preach, but they were not children. Can you find me a scripture that says Jesus sent out children to preach ? As for the JW Org increasing, it seems to be only in less educated lands. In more educated and more open lands where information is freely available there seems to be a decrease. The majority of growth is coming from developing countries in Africa and South America. In 2016, 70% of the increase in average publishers came from just 7 countries, Angola 10k, Brazil 21k, Ecuador 3k, Ghana 4k, Mexico 11k, Rep. of Congo 34k and Nigeria 3k. On the other hand, developed countries with the highest level of wealth, education and internet access to information regarding Watchtower have little to no growth. In 2016, many of these countries reported less publishers than previous year peaks, including Britain, Australia, Germany, Italy, USA, Canada and Japan.

@Witness you write some interesting stuff but you always quote Pearl Doxsey. Are you one and the same ? Or, Is Pearl Doxsey not actually one person but a collection of people ? A bit like the GB but using only one name. I'm not saying I believe all you write but some of it is interesting and makes sense. Please do not be upset that i do not believe what you write. I have mentioned before that i don't believe anyone anymore. Oh yes Witness, it seems Billy the cowboy think you and I are one person ...

This is all so funny. firstly Billy tries to pretend i was disfellowshipped and now he is trying to pretend I'm Witness. Wow Billy i think you are panicking or something. Am I just so close to the truth about the GB and it's Org that you cannot stand it any longer ? And then you misquote me slyly too. Your words Billy "Just like Butler stated "I think" the Org tried to stop the charity commission carrying out their investigation in the UK." Whereas I actually said 'As for interfering with the police doing their duty, i think it has happened within the JW Org. And the Org tried to stop the Charity Commision carrying out their investigation here in the UK. ' Now see the big difference. The sentence about the Charity Commision is a separate sentence. I know the London UK HQ of JW's tried to stop the Charity Commision investigation. Over to you @BillyTheKid46 What will you dream up about me next ? By the way I'm in Sidmouth Devon England, i have no idea where Witness or anyone else lives. AND I'm not frightened to use a PHOTO of MYSELF on here. As for the devil being alive and well, that is surely proved by the CHILD ABUSE / PEDOPHILIA IN THE EARTHWIDE JW ORG. Go it cowboy.

Yes but maybe there are different forms of being 'well dressed'. Are you a well dressed cowboy Billy ? I actually knew a brother that would wear a 'bootlace tie' complete with the bulls head in silver, to the meetings. He had lived in America for some time so don't know if it ok in some KH's over there. This brother wore a lovely jacket with shaping over the shoulders too. Real Western ranch style i would think, but it honestly looked really smart. Was it appropriate ? It's not for me to judge, but it looked smart and tidy and modest. And it was an individual choice which i think congregants should be allowed to make.

Could anyone disobeying the High Priest and the Sanhedrin be a true servant of God ? Oh yes it was Jesus. Could anyone condemning the Pharisees be a true servant of God ? Yes once again Jesus. And which of the disciples/apostles was it said 'We must serve God as ruler rather than men' ? Was it Paul. Billy you have no idea. How many times have the Watchtower writers condemned the Catholic Church, and it has been passed as ok by the GB. There are how many different types of 'Christianity' ? And you would not 'sow discourse' against any of them ? As for interfering with the police doing their duty, i think it has happened within the JW Org. And the Org tried to stop the Charity Commision carrying out their investigation here in the UK. As for who is Anointed and who isn't, is it our place to judge ? Let God through Jesus Christ be the judge. And wasn't there an actual video of a brother telling Elders to destroy evidence because 'the devil is coming after the Org'. I do wish my memory was better on these things.

Like you say Tom nothing is certain until it happens and even then nothing has happened until is if proven, well according to GB rules anyway.... But having feelings about things is surely how police and detectives work. If you don't have suspicion about a crime you would never investigate anything.

Dream on Tom.

@BillyTheKid46 I said it would be sensible to me and that you would not think it sensible. We are both totally off topic and we will never agree on things concerning God or how God should be served through Christ. You say that ", JW’s encourage everyone to KNOW God personally by means of Jesus sacrifice" But the memorial is just one occasion per year. The rest of the time JW's try to tell people that they can only serve God through the JW Org. Quite a difference i think. Where does any of this factor into that equation when people are NOT willing to follow bible principles. If you truly believe that the GB and it's Org 'follow bible principles' that is your choice. However by doing some research and having an open mind I have found differently. As for 'rethinking Christianity', do you just mean knuckle down and do as I'm told by the JW Org ? Or do you mean, as I am doing, having an open mind and listening to every one that makes comments here and elsewhere ? No i haven't found direction yet. But I haven't given up either. I'm a sinner like any other. However i think I will be dead for a long time before the Judgement Day arrives. I'm prepared to be judged for all my faults and mistakes. God is merciful and forgiving and so is Jesus Christ. I am not in opposition to God or Christ, I'm just in opposition to a false religion or a religion that has gone off track.

@BillyTheKid46 OK Billy let's take what you've just written and try to give you sensible answers, well sensible from my viewpoint, as i know anything I write is not sensible to you. Quote 'the experience you believe you have is obscured by facts.' So what facts do you have exactly ? Because we have seen posts on here showing young children being baptized and mention of young children as young as 3, putting in 'report slips'. I know personally of families of 7, five children, 2 adults, doing ministry. I also know personally of children that have told me they 'hate' the meetings and 'hate' the ministry, but are made to do it. Of course when they say 'hate' they probably mean strongly dislike but it does show their true feelings. I also know teenagers that have left home to get away from the JW 'way of life' and it has caused distress to both parents and to the teenagers. Quote 'Are children forced?' Yes they are, but in a bit if fairness it would also be wrong to leave the children at home whilst parents went to meetings or out on the ministry. However if the child does not want to go then it is force. It becomes more like force when the children are paraded around the streets where their school friends live. Do you honestly think that is showing any kind of love to anyone ? Quote 'As for the memorial. Everyone is welcomed to attend the memorial to show appreciation to the one who sacrificed himself so that people like you can taint everything Jesus stood for.' I wasn't aware that Jesus sacrificed himself for 8 men to pretend they are the 'faithful and discreet slave' and for those 8 men to tell the Anointed not to contact each other and to keep quiet. I thought Jesus died for all of us to have a 'second chance' but especially for the Anointed. Remembering the scripture about 'ten men clinging to the skirt of a Jew' 'saying we will go with you people because we know God is with you'. I do not see God being with the GB of JW Org. As for everyone being welcome at the memorial, yes that is true, but it seems a lot more effort is made to get as many people as possible into a Kingdom hall at that time. I agree that the memorial is important and the more that can 'witness it' the better. But to then use that attendance figure as an 'advertising feature' is a falsehood, as it was only obtained by vast extra effort which only takes place once a year. Many people will gladly accept 'extra fuss' and a free lift to and from the hall, sometimes just because they are lonely and want company. It does not show extra interest in serving God or appreciation for the sacrifice Jesus made. One has to be realistic about these things. Your last paragraph mentioning Ryan makes no sense to me. Are you firstly saying that someone said they left the JW Org but you are calling them a liar ? Are you saying they were disfellowshipped but will not admit it ? Secondly are you also calling me a liar ? Are you trying to pretend I was disfellowshipped ? I have mentioned before how I left the JW Org. My ex congregation gave out telephone numbers and email addresses of all Elders. I had a copy of that sheet and i emailed as many Elders that had emails on the sheet. I also emailed a few brothers to tell them what i was doing and why. I was then telephoned by one of the elders and asked to attend the Kingdom hall to 'talk it through'. During that meeting at the hall I was asked to sign a printed copy of an email that i had sent. I signed the copy and that was it. When the meeting at the hall started i said I didn't want any prayers or conversation, i just wanted to get the formality over. The Elders were very understanding and it was just a very basic official meeting. The fact that the Elders are not allowed to tell other people that, and that the announcement has to be that 'John Butler is no longer one of Jehovah's Witnesses', makes no difference to the truth that i left the Org. Anyone that wishes to call me a liar or thinks that i was dis/fed, are just showing their true colours of selfish thinking. As for this 'Your ideology John is so polluted with your hatred ... ' I have no ideology. My mind is open to any ideas and thoughts. I consider all things. If my line of thinking happens to be similar to many people in the earth regarding the Child Abuse within the JW Org that is because many people have considered the same evidence and come to the same conclusions. Similarly the shunning and other matters. It would seem you have an ideology concerning the GB and the JW Org. You worship both it seems.

@Space Merchant Quote The group reports a worldwide membership of approximately 8.58 million adherents involved in evangelism and an annual Memorial attendance of over 20 million. We seem to have a misunderstanding. i didn't mean the children were making up (pretending) the numbers. I meant that the number of JW's included lots of young children. So the quantity of young children putting in 'Report slips' each month, boosts the total number of JW's. The 8.58 million could be half adult, half children. And many of those children are forced to attend meetings and forced to go on the 'ministry work'. As for the Memorial attendance, JW's are told to bring as many people to it as possible. Some of those attending will never go back into a Kingdom hall again. JW's go to people's homes to pick them up and take them to the Kingdom Hall, then take them home again afterward. But most JW's only do that for the one occasion, the Memorial, not on a regular basis. I was involved in all of this for many years. I am talking from personal experience, not from just reading what other people write. The children are made to suffer mentally. Forced by parents to do things which the children are not ready to do. Hence why so many leave the JW Org as soon as that can. It does not unite families it divides them.

Um, Tom, what high participation rate ? When a person can submit a 'Report slip' for 30 minutes per month. When 3 year olds can have 'Report slips' put in for them. When children are forced to go on the ministry and then leave the Org asap when they are of age. Don't be blinded by numbers Tom, just like SM. And it seems the increases are in countries of people with a lower education level. In higher educated countries, or countries where information is more freely available, people are leaving the JW Org. Temptation levels are the same earthwide, the devil doesn't just tempt people in higher educated countries. So maybe it's because people in higher educated countries or countries where info is more freely available do more research into the GB and it's Org and also ask more questions and get disturbing answers.

adherent /ədˈhɪər(ə)nt/ noun plural noun: adherents someone who supports a particular party, person, or set of ideas. @Space Merchant I like your word 'adherents'. JW's do support their GB and it's JW Org. Unfortunately they do not serve God through Jesus Christ. Now these numbers you seem to love so much are made up of 3 year old children and upwards. Remember all they have to do is get mummy or daddy to put in a 'report slip' in their name, and they become a 'publisher'. The amount of JW's is counted by the amount of publishers. A person can be a 'publisher' by putting in a report slip with as little as 30 minutes per month on it. So if you have a family of 7 people, that is dad, mum, and 5 children aged from 3 years old upward, you can get 7 report slips per month, even if the younger children are forced to do the 'ministry work' by the parents. So don't get so excited about numbers SM, because they mean nothing. As for the clothing comment, um, I think you are unwell SM and need a rest.

The GB and JW Org wouldn't know anything about real love. It's all a front, just cleaning the outside of the bowl whilst the inside is full of filth. Never mind though it keeps the GB in a good lifestyle and the congregants keep putting money in the pot.

@Outta Here Yes i try so hard, just for you.

Wow are they lowering the standards as they are rapidly losing members ? Or is this normal attire for where ever this is ?

Jack I think you are cracking up man. I dislike the GB and it's JW Org too but I'm not looking to turn against God or His written word. Matthew 6:9-13 New International Version (NIV) 9 “This, then, is how you should pray: “‘Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name, 10 your kingdom come, your will be done, on earth as it is in heaven. 9 “You must pray, then, this way:+ “‘Our Father in the heavens, let your name+ be sanctified.*+ 10 Let your Kingdom+ come. Let your will+ take place, as in heaven, also on earth.+ Luke 11:2-4 King James Version (KJV) 2 And he said unto them, When ye pray, say, Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so in earth. I think that is proof that Jesus said to pray for God's will to be done here on this Earth. God's will is surely to restore all things to the perfection that He created. If you add to that the scripture about the 'resurrection of the righteous and the unrighteous' then it brings it all together a bit. As for 'the Jewish people', you know that as a nation they lost God's blessing and the guidance of His holy spirit way back when they murdered Jesus. They lost their chance of being the anointed or heavenly class. But you know all that anyway, you are just desperately looking for some reason to hate the JW Org more. Chill out Jack.

Hence my comment that it may not be a good translation, and, it may be fake news.

You think so ? JW's being 'no part of the world' etc. However do you think the article is true ? If it is is seems totally out of character.

2 points. 1. this was translated into English so may not be completely accurately translated 2. It may be fake news.

This seems to be some interesting news from RTL News, if it's true Jehovah's Witnesses call on members to cooperate in investigations of abuse The board of Jehovah's Witnesses Netherlands has called on its members to participate in research at Utrecht University into sexual abuse within the organization. The appeal is remarkable because the denomination normally avoids contact with non-ecclesiastical authorities. The call is included in an internal letter in the hands of RTL News. Personal choice In the letter, which was sent to all departments last week, the board asks members who are victims of child abuse to fill in a questionnaire on the Utrecht University site. He is commissioned by the Ministry of Justice and Security to investigate abuse within Jehovah's Witnesses. "Of course participation in this study is a personal choice," the board writes in the letter. "Nevertheless, we hope that this will give Utrecht University accurate and balanced information about how our organization responds to abuse." According to sources within the church, the letter was read during meetings in the church buildings. Jehovah's Witnesses was unable to respond to this message on Monday, a RTL News spokesperson said. Under attention Jehovah's Witnesses have recently been discredited because they only prosecute perpetrators of child abuse internally and do not report them to the police and the judicial authorities. The organization also refuses to hand over documents on internal court cases to the judiciary. Therefore, last November the police raided the headquartersof Jehovah's Witnesses. Kees van den Bos, research leader at Utrecht University is 'naturally' happy with the appeal from the board of Jehovah's Witnesses. "We have been in touch by email over the past few weeks and have asked them to bring our research to the attention of their members. It's nice to hear that they have done so now." The researchers were not involved in the preparation of the letter. The investigators have now received 'a few hundred serious reports' about abuse within Jehovah's Witnesses. Van den Bos could not say whether the last call led to new reports. The Reclaimed Voices foundation, which represents victims of abuse within Jehovah's witnesses, is also "positive" that the Jehovah's Witnesses point their members to this investigation. "We hope that active Jehovah's Witnesses who are victims of sexual abuse or who are aware of a situation will participate in the investigation," says President Raymond Hintjes. The research at Utrecht University came about following a motion from the House of Representatives. The goal is to see how Jehovah's Witnesses deals with reports of child abuse. Anyone who has experience with abuse within that church can report to the investigators until 1 June . The intention is that the final report can be published in the autumn.