JOHN BUTLER

No Tom it was not what i was implying at all. Anna seems to to have a vivid imagination. Maybe my wording wasn't as it should have been or maybe English English is different to American English, or different to the American way of thinking. I was not suggesting that JW Org was a porn ring in disguise, though it is possible that there could be small porn rings within the JW Org Earthwide. After all it has been suggested that some people join the JW Org for just that reason, to abuse young children. However back to what I was saying originally. I will reword it. Original comment : Do you believe ANY of the cases, from ANY country in this earth, that say an Elder was allowed to keep his position and status and his conduct was kept hidden, so he was able to abuse more children or abuse the same child on a regular basis ? Revised comment : Do you believe any of the cases of child abuse within the JW Org, from any country in this earth ? Do you believe that any of the Elders that did continuously abuse children in the JW Org were known to be doing so ? Do you think it was possible for those Elders to continue to abuse children because they were allowed to keep their position as Elder even though it was known they had abused children in the past ? OR do you think that every complaint against every Elder concerning child abuse, is a lie by apostates ? TTH I don't expect you to answer any of these questions, but Anna might as she seems to think it involves her. As for Anna's comment : " You, as a reasonable person, and I am assuming you are reasonable, has to see that no human organization (unless it is what I mentioned) will knowingly and purposefully condone child molestation." 2 Kings 16 v2. Aʹhaz was 20 years old when he became king, and he reigned for 16 years in Jerusalem. He did not do what was right in the eyes of Jehovah his God as David his forefather had done. Instead, he walked in the way of the kings of Israel, and he even made his own son pass through the fire, following the detestable practices of the nations that Jehovah had driven out from before the Israelites. 2 Kings 21 v 6 concerning Manassah 6 And he made his own son pass through the fire; he practiced magic, looked for omens,m and appointed spirit mediums and fortune-tellers.n He did on a grand scale what was bad in Jehovah’s eyes, to offend him. But of course JW Org is much better than the Nation of Israel isn't it. Or maybe not .................

So you think it is 'Christian' to give people one message one day then a different message next week when the GB / Org changes the meaning of scriptures. What you take to the people is not from God or Jesus Christ, it is from your superiors in the JW Org / Watchtower Soc'. So maybe that person was more 'Christian' than you. At least they are not taking false information to people.

So will this new law give the JW Org an excuse to destroy information / data that it already has on record ? That could prove very convenient for the Org couldn't it .

Spoken like a true JW.

@TrueTomHarley Do you believe ANY of the cases, from ANY country in this earth, that say an Elder was allowed to keep his position and status and his conduct was kept hidden, so he was able to abuse more children or abuse the same child on a regular basis ? Do you actually believe that this did happen in some cases ? Or are you saying that the JW Org is so so so clean and so well organised that those things would / could never happen ? Honest reply in as few words as possible please.

Hello Randy. Nice to see a name and a real face, instead of someone hiding behind a 'mask'. I'm an ex JW. I'm not part of a religious group now. i don't have truth but i do recognise lies. Remember there is a scripture 'somewhere' about those 'without Law' doing the things 'of the Law'. In other words there were people that were not from the Nation of Israel so did not live under the Law, but they behaved in such a good way that they were better people than some of those who were under the law. I know about how the JW name came about, but it does not mean that what you are taught is truth. That was and still is a bit of brainwashing, that old saying "We are 'in the truth' ". It has been proven so many times that what has been taught was never truth at all. I'm sure I don't need to remind you of how the meanings of scriptures have been changed so many times, and the pretence is that it is 'new light'. As for some JW's doing bad, well a lot of things are kept hidden in the JW Org and now some of those things are coming into the light. The scriptures tell us that things done in darkness will come out into the light. Luke 8 v17. Sorry Randy, I was a JW for years and just accepted everything i was taught, but now, since the the massive amount of child abuse / pedophilia problems, i have looked deeper into the things i was taught and I'm finding that a lot of it was never truth at all.

TTH, you do come across as, A.sarcastic, and B. thinking of yourself as someone special.... You are an author, and deny it as you might, being an author serves you two purposes, it earns you money and gets you recognition. Now maybe, just maybe, those people that you disagree with know exactly you reasons for disagreeing with them, and maybe they don't 'take the bait' that you want them to. You do tend to make it known that you use most of your interactions for content in your books. Doing so also makes you seem less honest, or at least have less honest intentions. It's like saying, "the only reason I'm talking to you is to use you in my book to earn me money". For my part, if you use me in any of your books I think it's funny, but to some people that have a more serious outlook they may find it offensive. (I think Billy child finds it offensive that you use comments off here in your books ). As for your idea of 'parents telling grandparents' yes but that could be seen as gossip and that can be seen as 'causing a division in the congregation'. Surely you can understand that if people in the congregation start accusing others of being a pedophile, that would cause upset. You still haven't answered my question of 'Why can't it be announced directly from the platform ? Or is it because of the problem of being sued. If the pedophile knows that the parents in their congregation have been told then said pedophile will be aware that it will be spread around anyway, even though according to JW 'rules' it shouldn't be spread around. It really makes a comedy show of all of it. The Org needs people like the Apostle Paul in every congregation. Get everything out in the open. Wash the inside of the dish or bowl before trying to clean the outside, as Jesus said. Probably nothing new here for your book sorry

Right the internet gives lots of different meanings to this WDS idea. So please explain what exactly you mean by it as it could be one of many things.

I think Billy has this thought that if he says something enough times he might just begin to believe it. Billy is in love with the GB it seems. He worships them and in his eyes they can do no wrong. Well it seems I have to be careful of what i write so best not put my thoughts into words here. Just to say that the GB are 8 old men. White American by majority. I don't think God actually wants a 'ruling class' of one colour from one country.

The difference is, SHE is saying CONGREGANTS are not told, the Org is saying PARENTS are told. So she is not telling lies or misleading anyone, you are TTH. As I've mentioned before, grandparents and others are quite often responsible for children in the congregation. I've known people bring other people's children to meetings. There was even a mother in my ex congregation that would drop her children at the front door of the KH, because the mother was Dis/fed but she still wanted her children at the meetings. She was obviously there to pick the children up at the end of the meetings. But her three children were there without parents, being looked after by other congregants. Yes a strange arrangement, but the mum is now back in the Org. So i still ask, why are the GB and Elders still protecting Pedophile ? The Apostle Paul wasn't frightened to make things known about people. Why do the Elders not announce it directly from the platform. After all it seems they do a 'talk' about it weeks later. It is all too obvious that the GB and it's JW Org do not follow Bile principles. The GB and it's Org are actually frightened of reality. When you look at the Bible accounts of the early Christians, what they did, what happened to them, how they 'obeyed God as ruler rather than men', it shows that they had complete trust in God through Christ. The GB are just old men living a comfortable lifestyle, not prepared to go to the limits that early Christians did. I do sometimes wonder if God looks down and thinks that no one on this earth is taking Him seriously enough. Reminds me of when the Nation of Israel was frightened to go into the Promised Land, so God gave them 40 years in the wilderness. It certainly seems like the GB and it's Org is in a wilderness, but totally lost with no guidance. Unfortunately it is all run from America. It's all about business and legality. Americans love to sue each other. Big money earner. Hence the GB / Org is frightened to be totally honest about those who are 'members'. If you cannot see how far away from true Christianity the GB and it's Org is, that is because you are not a true Christian.

But Billy, those 8 men, the GB, are self appointed anointed and calling themselves the 'faithful and discreet slave'. Come on Billy be fair, I have no idea if anyone on here is of the anointed, but it's quite obvious that the GB are not. By their works you will know them, and the works of the GB are not good.

Talking of flirting, that is what the Assemblies are for. Finding a mating partner to procreate, after getting married of course. Well, have to keep the numbers up in the 'flock'. All the young dudes put on their tight suits and the dudesses dress up in sexy clothes and very high heels. Does it meet with God's approval ? Well God created man and woman to be attracted to each other so as to keep the human race going. Lets not pretend it doesn't happen. I did notice in the last couple of years of my time in the Org, that older folks stopped attending assemblies. Travel for older folks can be a bit much, but i think it was boredom too. It's a lot of hassle to learn nothing new.

I find it interesting when so much is compared between the Jews and the JW's. But in my opinion, one big difference between being a Jew before and in the time of Jesus, and being a JW, is choice. If a person was born into the Nation of Israel, they were born under Law and ruled over by the Religious leaders (and the Romans) at that time. There was no choice of being a Jew or not being a Jew. They were born into it. So of course many of them, probably all of them, committed 'sin' and had to make sin offerings. God had chosen that Nation, those people had responsibility but not of their choice. Now, people that enter the JW religion do so voluntarily. ( Unfortunately for those born into it, they have to go through the motions of serving the JW Org until they are of an age whereby they can leave home. Then, when of age they too can volunteer to be a JW or chose to leave the Org.). There is a big difference from being born into a Nation which you may not like, than voluntarily joining a religion which you do like. So the big question is, if 'millions' of people voluntarily join this JW Org, why do so many commit child abuse, adultery and many other sins ? If this is supposed to be 'THE true religion', why are the people not guided by God through Jesus Christ ? Just reading comments on here from so called JW's makes me laugh. There is no love, no mercy, no understanding, no respect even. Being an ex JW and seeing things from both sides i have found more genuine love, kindness, friendship, respect, warmth, understanding etc outside of the Org than inside. Inside the Org people have to be told to 'love one another', outside the Org people do it anyway. It has amazed me how JW's can really believe that God is with them when they are so cold and selfish. With the Jews that were born into that Nation, they had no choice about their way of life. It was basically a dictatorship by God. The Laws were from 'above'. Obviously for the right reason, to bring forth Jesus Christ who in turn would 'rescue' the human race from complete destruction. But it was a totally different situation to the JW Org today. So now all you 'JWs', think on it. Do you truly believe you are in this' special environment' within the Org ? Do you really think that your Org has God's approval ? Think deeply about all the problems within JW Org. All the disgusting things being done voluntarily by all the volunteer JW's. Now ask yourself, are you really a volunteer JW or are you trapped in the Org for fear of losing all those 'so called friends' ? You know that you can only have your family and 'friends' as long as you are a JW. Do you feel like the Jews must have felt, trapped in that Nation ? As we know many of the Jews left the Jewish religion and way of life to follow Christ, but it was difficult for them. However, they did have God's approval and God, through Christ made this known clearly. And it seems that many are leaving the JW Org to seek God's approval too. But remember that all JW's are volunteers, or should be, so why oh why is there so much trouble in that Org ?

Or do you just lack concentration time span ?

@BillyTheKid46 Are you really using the Romans 13 scripture to mean the GB ? Are you joking ? The Superior Authorities to whom we pay taxes are worldly governments. Surely even you can understand that ? You are proving day by day that you are not a JW. The only power the GB have is what they give themselves and what their servants (most JW's) give them. The GB has no power given by God or Jesus Christ.

God didn't use angels to destroy Jerusalem did He ? Now whether God used the Romans to destroy Jerusalem, or, if God took away His protection from Jerusalem and 'allowed' the Romans to destroy it, either way it does not matter, the job was done. The Jewish religious leaders thought they could do as they pleased and get away with it. They thought God would protect them no matter what... Fast forward to the GB and it's JW Org. They too think they can do anything they want to.They too think that God will protect them no matter what. I'm not 'inciting others to harm anyone', I'm just aware of the situation / feelings amongst those that have suffered through mistreatment by members of JW Org, because of rules laid down by the GB.. I've mentioned before about the difference between America and the UK. It would seem Stateside that if people have strong enough feelings they will follow through on it. Whereas here in the UK people moan a lot but generally just shout and rant verbally. Yes there is a lot of knife crime here, but in the States there is a lot of gun crime. It is much easier to kill someone with a gun from a distance, that's what I'm saying. It's kind of strange that people get squirmish talking about the possibilities of people being killed now. But those same people can happily read about people being killed in the Bible. How many thousand soldiers did one angel kill in one night? How many Jewish people and others were slaughtered in Jerusalem when it was destroyed ? Is God protecting the GB ? Will God continue to protect the GB ? Did God continue to protect those Jewish religious leaders from the Romans ? Are you frightened of my words ?

Oh dear Billy you have simply lost the plot, or more likely are being blinded by the Devil. The Anointed are the 144,000. The scriptures are for the Anointed. Only the Anointed go to heaven to be with God and Christ. The Anointed are the body of Christ, the Bride of Christ, Heavenly Jerusalem. Everyone else is of the earthly class. Remember that God intends to restore this Earth to a paradise. A resurrection of the righteous and the unrighteous. Well the unrighteous wouldn't be resurrected to heaven would they ? I don't pretend to fully understand all scripture and I don't pretend to be Anointed either. The time is not yet here for God to fully reveal who the Anointed are otherwise people that were really seeking truth would know who the Anointed are. I'm now quite sure that you Billy are not a JW, you are just a wind up merchant. You know nothing of scripture and nothing of truth.

OH Billy you child, you are so far away from truth that you are not really worth replying to but for the entertainment value lets see. The Anointed are the body of Christ, but only the Anointed not others. As for your "what part of your attitude against the GB makes you a Christian in your distorted mind." Um, Jesus' attitude to the Pharisees. And Jesus' attitude to any false teachings. Plus Jesus' attitude to the way the temple was being misused. And Jesus' attitude to how the people were being mistreated by those 'in charge' putting 'heavy loads' on the shoulders of others. It does not take much deep thinking Billy, to see how Jesus hated lies, deceit, mistreatment of people, traditions of men, and the pretence of serving God whilst really being dishonest. It's all recorded many times in the Bible, if only you would read it and get to know it. And that is exactly how the GB / JW Org / Watchtower are, just like those Pharisees. The GB seem to think it is ok to tell lies as they call it 'spiritual warfare' by misquoting scripture. Never mind Billy child, you will learn the truth one day, keep trying.

And if the GB and Org did their job properly they would announce name of person and sin committed directly from the platform. Why hide it ? Is it just parents that need to know these things ? No. Quite often grandparents, carers and other congregants take children to the meetings. No longer is the rule that children must sit with their parents at the meetings. Children sit with lots of different people. The whole congregation should be told directly from the platform. It's because things are kept hidden that the Org now has such a serious problem concerning Child Sex Abuse accusations.

@Witness The scriptures you have quoted convince me even more that the Greek scriptures were written to and for the Anointed only. It is my opinion that only the Anointed can fully understand God's written word. As for Billy the child, no hope remains it seems

@TrueTomHarley I remember a case of a brother being reproved from the platform, and as it happens he had previously visited my wife and I, with his wife, to tell us that he was about to be reproved. He had been out with a group of brothers, one of them being an elder, they had gone into Exeter and he had got drunk and been sick on the train home, as he wasn't used to 'going out drinking'. One almost funny point though not important, the elder was on holiday overseas when this brother was reproved, so the elder was well out of the way and not involved. But my point is that only a few of us in the congregation knew why this brother was being reproved. The point of that article is that, most people in a congregation DO NOT KNOW WHY THE PERSON IS REPROVED... Therefore it is not a protection to those who do not know the 'sin committed'. I remember a tiny bit of scripture whereby the apostle Paul is counselling congregation because a member of said congregation was having sex with his father's wife. 1 Corinthians 5 v1 & 2 Actually sexual immorality is reported among you, and such immorality as is not even found among the nations—of a man living with his father’s wife. And are you proud of it? Should you not rather mourn, so that the man who committed this deed should be taken away from your midst? If Paul wasn't frightened to mention the deed and the man then why should the Org be frightened of it ? I fully agree with @James Thomas Rook Jr. when he says :- " Having the very best of intentions, and being righteously inclined DOES NOT COUNT if the administrators are policy wonks who are also clueless and self-serving. and. "Policy is one thing ..... reality is quite another." I cannot understand why the GB /Org does not announce fully the reason for reproval and reason for disfellowshipping alongwith the person's name.. It would seem worse to me to reprove a person and not give a reason as then the congregants are left being suspicious of the person that was reproved. Tom, you and Space Merchant and a few others seem to believe that just because a 'policy' is written down, that it will always be adhered to. Let's hear it again JTR Jr "Policy is one thing ..... reality is quite another."

Because those not of the anointed are supposed to say "We will go with you people because God is with you people" It's not that we would serve men, but i do believe that God will give information through men. (Not the GB of JW Org) I've said many times before that the Bible was not written for those who are not Anointed. It was written for the Anointed. There is a scripture somewhere that says 'they' won't have to be taught, because it will automatically be in their hearts. Hence the anointed will teach others. But in my humble opinion, God has not yet made it known who those Anointed are. That is one reason I think we are a long way from Judgement Day. God has much work to do yet to make His people known to all the Earth.

I would have thought the simple answer would be, The Anointed. But the difficult bit is knowing who the anointed are. Which brings me back to 'Ten men clinging to the robe of a Jew' How are we supposed to know who the spiritual Jew is ?

I've often thought of this point of reproof from the platform. It does nothing positive at all, it just leaves people wondering why the person was reproved. And it certainly does not protect the congregation. 2019 “Shepherd the Flock of God”: The Problem With Public Reproofs for Child Sex Abuse by Alexandra James In January of 2019, elders in the congregations of Jehovah's Witnesses were issued a new version of their confidential handbook, "Shepherd the Flock of God." This handbook covers, among other topics, when a person should be "reproved." For those unfamiliar with the their practices, Jehovah's Witness elders might determine that someone guilty of a serious sin is repentant and will be "reproved" rather than disfellowshipped [excommunicated]. This reproof might be administered privately, or it might include a very brief announcement to the congregation. Public Reproofs Are Not a Protection The "Shepherd" book makes the claim that a public reproof serves as a "protection" to the congregation against certain dangerous behaviors, such as child sexual abuse; note this statement from chapter 14, "Child Abuse:: However, this announcement of reproof includes no information about the person's "sinful" behavior, as instructed in chapter 16, "Procedure for Judicial Hearings": The "Shepherd" book even outright instructs that a person's sinful acts should not be connected to their reproof, such as when a "warning" talk is given regarding their behavior; also from chapter 16: This statement alone demonstrates that the entire "public reproof" arrangement protects no one from congregation members who might pose a danger to others, including children. Simply stating that someone has "been reproved" doesn't warn a congregant of that person's specific behavior, and especially when there is a long list of reasons why someone might be publicly reproved, including: Smoking Fornication, adultery Theft Lying, slander Various forms of "apostasy" Severe fits of temper, fighting Drunkenness Using narcotics Taking up boxing After hearing a rather generic announcement that someone has been "reproved," without knowing the actual reason for that reproof, how would congregants know to keep their children away from them? Another congregant might assume that a person being reproved was caught smoking or fornicating with an adult; child sexual abuse might be the last thing they would consider when they hear of someone having been reproved! Your Conscience Shouldn't Be Clean This begs the question of why Jehovah's Witnesses think that their consciences can be clean in these cases. Elders honestly think that making an announcement of so-and-so having been "reproved" protects the congregation and so they've done their job of keeping people and children safe? Nothing can be further from the truth, especially when it comes to child sexual abuse. This "public reproof" arrangement purposely conceals the action that warranted the reproof, so it warns no one about a congregant who might be a danger to their children. This announcement does not take away from an elder's complicity in hiding allegations of abuse. Any elder who hears of such a credible allegation and doesn't notify authorities, cooperate with their investigations fully, and then do everything possible to keep a potentially dangerous person away from children shares guilt and blame if that person goes on to molest another child. The bottom line is that Jehovah's Witnesses and elders especially have no problem lying to themselves and to the general public about their supposed "protections" for congregants. They shield alleged molesters by purposely ensuring that no information about a particular act is associated with "reproved" persons, and then tell themselves that this passive-aggressive "hinting around" is going to somehow alert congregants to the need to keep their child away from him or her. While the authors of these practices and the elders charged with enforcing them might go to bed with a clean conscience, remember it's not them who suffer the consequences of their actions; the elders are not being raped and abused, the men who wrote this "Shepherd" book are not the ones who will be the next victims of these "reproved" persons. Their complicity in this horrific act is bad enough, but their smug self-righteousness in thinking that they've somehow done enough to protect children with a generic "reproof" is just another slap across the face of those same children.

Well the Watchtower / GB / JW Org certainly do the equivalent of offering children in the fire to Molech, with their protection of pedophiles in the Org. And the GB / Org do put the Elders in place of the Anointed. So yes Billy your Watchtower Society do worship false gods and you worship the Watchtower.