JOHN BUTLER

JTR Jr said "The only reason I did not "upvote" TTH's excellent post was this quoted line .... as my experiences and observations have been quite different. Congregational trials disallow representation, recordings, witnesses to the proceedings, or transcripts, and are held in secret, and the results often secret as well." It is the fact that they have been kept secret for so long that has resulted in so many court cases Earthwide now. And if TTH thinks the GB / JW Org / W/t has a much better track record it must be because A. the internal 'court cases' have been kept secret, B. There are far more worldly cases than JW cases. I like that JTR Jr uses the expression " than OUR system, where everything is done in darkness, behind closed doors, and anonymously. Luke 8 v 17. is a good scripture here. And I just have to repeat what James wrote here :- It is an abomination when the Nations have a better system than we do, and THEIR Justice System imitates what we know from the Bible worked well for thousands of years .... and OUR Congregational system imitates how it is done by tyrants practicing evil. So James, do you still invite people into your Kingdom Hall ? Do you still go on the ministry ? Do you invite innocent people to be taught by tyrants practicing evil. ? I'm sure you and others are beginning to understand why i left that 'collection of organisations'.

Tom uses a lot of words just to say that the JW Lawyers are actually villains used by the GB, to do the dirty work of trying to get rid of Victims of Child Abuse that are now putting in claims, in the JW Org. A bit like the religious leaders of the Jews using the Romans to do their dirty work when 'riding themselves of Jesus Christ'. Yes the GB do get some of their ideas from scripture.

TTH that is fantastic. Best one on here that I've seen. On a more serious note though. If as I think you said, the GB /Wt / JW Org (who it seems are 3 separate entities ) are investing in the 'stocks', is it possible to trace exactly what stocks they are investing in. There are always rumours of course but is it possible to find the truth. Do any of those 3 have to publicly show who they are investing in ? Another strange thing, if they are 'charities' non profit making, then surely 'playing the stock exchange' is making profit.

I did, i left it. And now i advise others to do the same.

You are talking from a 'worldly viewpoint', I was meaning from a more scriptural / moral viewpoint of honesty, hard work and conscience. Basically the GB / Org allows the stock market just like Moses allowed divorce. And it seems for the same reason the Society allowed smoking up until 1970 even though they knew it was wrong in the late 1800's. They are frightened to offend too many people, as it would mean less money in the pot from contributions.

Oh my oh my. Guns and wars,what topics for so called Christians. And one in particular who seems to worship those past wars and his collection of guns. And he pretends to have something on me which he is passing on to Interpol or someone ? And all of us totally off topic, so where is the @admin to tell us all off. The KId keeps saying he is getting back on topic when he's talking about me hating the GB. Well i don't know if i actually hate the GB or just despise them. Did Jesus hate the Pharisees ? Pointing out real true faults in someone, is that hate ? I don't think it is. Trying to advise people to avoid bad or dangerous situations, is that hate ? I don't think so. So if the Kid condemns me for trying to be helpful to others, so be it. I have learnt one thing for sure, Americans do have a totally different way of thinking to English people. With all that weaponry and war worship i can understand a little bit why they are not disturbed by the amount of collateral damage in JW Org. It would seem that Collateral Damage in America is just like buying a burger or hot dog, a daily occurance. As for the ten generations twice removed, it's one big joke. Are you guys really fooled by the GB ?

@BillyTheKid46 You are so funny Kid. Your GB / Watchtower / JW Org talk about billions of people being killed at their idea of Armageddon. I'm only suggesting that your 8 men of the GB might be killed a long time before that Armageddon. I wonder if anyone suggested that Jesus would be killed before it happened ? Please remember that Jesus is the Son of God. but he was murdered. And remember that one of JW's was working in my local KH and he was murdered. Stabbed to death. And it seems that it's you that is stockpiling weapons, not me. How's that machine gun you have ? Legal in the USA is it ? And you think I'm crazy but at least i don't have a house full of guns. I wonder which of us should actually be under investigation ? Oh yes Christian ethics. Trust in God but have a machine gun as a backup.

@JW Insider But as I've said before, if the GB are 'taken' in any way (death or prison etc) for the Child Abuse issue or false teachings or shunning etc, then it will not be persecution for serving God, but more like people taking revenge or legal action because the GB did not serve God. Surely you can see that some of the hate that people have for the GB and JW's, has nothing to do with any prophecy, nothing to do with how they serve God, but more to do with the facts of how the GB and JW's behave in an immoral and unjust way. So any 'worldly action' against the GB / JW Org is more likely to be by those that have suffered in some way because of the GB and it's Org's actions. I don't think that is in prophecy. If the GB tries to pretend that any action against them is related to prophecy I will find it so funny.

Ah, so that is why certain people on here dislike me, because i don't turn real truth into comedy. Sorry i can't oblige on that. I've seen too much suffering in many way to make jokes out if it.

@JW Insider This is what i get when i try the link, because UK is part of Europe 451: Unavailable due to legal reasons But this court case : Legal legal legal, but no moral, no going the extra mile. No, obeying God as ruler rather than men, it's obeying the legal department rather than God. Judas, to the very extreme. Think about the money money money. CCJW, a New York non-profit corporation headquartered in NewYork, supports the religion of Jehovah’s Witnesses. CR 77, Ex. G ¶¶5-7. What ????? So the Christian Congregation of Jehovah's witnesses are not Jehovah's witnesses, they just support Jehovah's Witnesses. So um, if CCJW is the headquarters, then what it it the headquarters of ? And how can it be called the Christian Congregation of Jehovah's Witnesses ? And they are also saying that the individual congregations are not part of CCJW or Watchtower. Then why does each and every congregation have to send its donations to the CCJW or Watchtower ? The individual congregations can only keep enough money to cover one or two months expenses and has to send the rest to CCJW (or Watchtower). If the congregations are completely separate then what authority does the CCJW or W/t have over each and every congregation ? Oh well, even more reason to not be a JW isn't it ? I hope the Kid loves all this

But be serious on this one. Surely the Stock Exchange is still gambling ? So isn't that hypocrisy ? I do the UK lotto and have no bad conscience about it. After all, a person can go into a pub for a beer, but he doesn't want to get drunk, so i can gamble for a little win, but i don't love money or want to be a millionaire. Common occurrence with TTH, if a truth about the Org is brought up in conversation, turn it into a joke to avoid giving truthful answer.

Another point totally off topic as usual. I think the 'Society' allow / agree with, 'gambling' on the Stock Exchange, but don't allow doing Lotteries or other forms of gambling. My brother's daughter lost thousands on the stock exchange. i don't understand it so can't give more details but i do know she was not happy

Even the Society, not known for common sense, does not restrict ? Now this is an important point. Because it looks as if you are looking at the 'Society' for approval here. However, how does God or Jesus Christ feel, that is much more important. And does the Society, God, Jesus Christ, like Billy's machine gun too ? Also, and i must admit to just being cheeky here, this comment of yours. As far as it depends on you ... be peaceable with all men. ...sometimes it does not depend on you. Is this what the churches use as an excuse to go to war ? WW2 comes to mind. How far does protecting your own home / family / friends go ?

To quote @TrueTomHarley "The benefits of the Christian teachings serve to strengthen resolve and to unbuild one, .. " I think most of us here would agree to that statement. But Tom, there is a massive gap between the Christian teachings, and the JW Org. Please remember they are two very separate things. God's word is available to millions or billions of people earthwide, but not many of them are JW's. So yes, the Christian teachings are indeed very useful to upbuild and strengthen. As for your first sentence. Not one of us is mentally well balanced. Because we are all imperfect. (These guys with a houseful of guns have me worried. I am honestly happy that i live here in England not in the USA.) But Jesus, or one of the disciples, said about bridling the tongue, and this here forum is just an extension of same. It proves we are all slightly unbalanced because, 1. We wouldn't waste our time on here, 2, we wouldn't write some of the things we write. However Tom, I think you should seriously think about who is an opposer of the GB / JW Org, and, who is an opposer of God's Word. There is a big difference. I do not oppose God's written word, I just don't understand a lot of it .

Why would a person that says he is a servant of the true God have any guns at all. I thought the bible said turn the other cheek, be prepared to give up all your material possessions and your home, be prepared to die for your 'brothers'. I think there is a strange scripture whereby Jesus tells his disciples to carry a sword so that a certain prophecy would be fulfilled. But I don't think that, well maybe, the GB could stretch that scripture to mean machine guns too. I worry even more about the Kid now, and as I've said I don't think he is a JW at all. Maybe he is the one that will do it. 8 men, 500 rounds per minute. Half a mile away. Um, the mind boggles. But religious people and people in high positions get shot at all the time. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_John_Paul_II_assassination_attempt https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_presidential_assassination_attempts_and_plots https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/new-jersey-priest-accused-sex-abuse-found-shot-death-nevada-n982376 https://www.premier.org.uk/News/World/Elderly-priest-shot-dead-in-car-ambush https://nypost.com/2018/02/21/woman-shunned-by-jehovahs-witnesses-kills-entire-family-cops/ Just to remind you that we are living in dangerous times and these things do happen. It just seems that I am the only one willing to talk about it. It looks like being 'civilised' just means you can kill people from a greater distance. Well I suppose you don't get splattered with the blood that way.

I think i said something like they will be teaching a new message not need a new message, but i could be wrong. @TrueTomHarley I'm only spending one hour on my 'puter' this morning and my wife is in the next room (kitchen) . We often discuss spiritual matters (even though she was told not to by an Elder) and i do relate the funny things from this forum. My wife spends much of her time with the children and grandchildren, which I tend not to do. A man does not own his wife neither does a wife own her husband, we are both free to do our own things within reason. Once again things were different in Bible times when a man had 'husbandly ownership' over his wife............... @BillyTheKid46 You honestly make me laugh. You read scripture, you know about how wicked life was back in Bible times. You know about how many thousands of people were killed either as armies or individuals. But you seem frightened to relate it to present times. You know how Jesus was murdered, yet you cringe at the thought of the GB being murdered. I'm not saying it will happen but I'm saying that enough people in the USA have enough hate for the GB that one or a group of them could do it. God could allow it to happen just as God allowed the Romans to destroy Jerusalem and murder thousands of people that were once God's chosen nation. In fact i have even more fuel to add to that fire since I've been reading about the 'fire power' you guys seem to have in your own homes. If you have it so does thousands of other people in the USA. We tend to have knives here in the UK. I only carry a knife up in the woods in case i get attacked by a big cat .

Not relevant to this topic, but, having spent all day taking photos and listing things on Ebay, then looking at my email notifications, i had 43 from this forum. Having swiftly gone through them I've concluded that my time was definitely better spent listing on Ebay. There is nothing really spiritual on here. Nothing of importance. People, including me, acting like children, so it's only fit for a laugh, not upbuilding in any way.

So the Lawyers of JW Org / Wt are not highly educated. The designers of the new HQ / Bethal are not educated. The designers of the means of translation into all the world's languages are not educated. Your GB are not educated. The Board of Directors are not highly educated. In fact it seems by your opinion that no one in the W/t or JW Org is educated. Um, so i wonder how they wriggle out of paying the fines and compensations that they should pay. i wonder how they've managed to fight court battles to get the freedom to preach in many places. I wonder who does the accounts at the top. I wonder who arranges planning permission for so many K/hs earthwide. And now you will probably try to pretend it is done with God's guidance through Jesus Christ. This stupid idea of trying to compare the times of Jesus and his disciples/apostles, with the times right here and now, is so pathetic. Even comparing now to 100 years ago is stupid. Here in the UK people could do and say things years ago that they cannot do or say now. There was working class hands on work here that is not here now. So all this comparing means nothing. Education means being able to support a family properly. It also means, what the GB does not want, that people can do research in books, on the internet and communicate in many ways. All you are doing is being a parrot to the GB and it's Org. You are trying to convince people that having a good education is a bad thing. As for your stupid idea about higher education causing the troubles here on this earth. YOU well know WHO causes the troubles here on this earth. It is the Devil and his Demons. Matters not what education you have, you can be serving the devil even if you have the lowest education available. In fact in my opinion, if you do not try to gain knowledge then you are not using the brain that God gave you. Just one tiny thought, bloodless surgery and cell salvage, invented by whom ? Uneducated were they.

Just because my wife is twenty years younger than i am and she keeps me young at heart, there is no need to be jealous Kid. Like I say Kid, you are getting desperate and boring. That is the real me and my real wife in that photo. I have no need to hide behind anything and no need to hide my age either. As for being apostate, I'm only apostate to false teachings and dishonest organisations.

Well the JW Org is definitely not Theocratic that's for sure. But you're right it's not democratic either, it's a dictatorship.

Billy is sounding more like a demented pervert every day. He once was funny but now he seems to be getting desperate and boring. However this whole conversation is way off topic but quite funny. (Que Admin telling me off)

Probably something like the 'This generation' scripture now means 5 generations twice removed. Could be anything, the GB make it up to suit themselves.

Basically Tom, because it's me they you and Billy have a dig at. But I'm fine with it. No probs.

TTH seems to be the one that wants to make me famous. He mentions me in a lot of his comments. Examples : ' John will pop a vein over this ' and ' John carries on that if something is not perfect, then it is filthy '. Well TTH, John uses his own name so as to show that John in genuine with his thoughts and words. Quote TTH : He apparently wants a person or persons whose credentials and calling are as uncontested as they were with Moses. 23 “This is what Jehovah of armies says, ‘In those days ten men out of all the languages of the nations will take hold, yes, they will take firm hold of the robe of a Jew, saying: “We want to go with you, for we have heard that God is with you people.”’” So TTH, how can a person 'take hold of the robe of a (spiritual) JEW' and how will a person know that ' God is with those people' ? Guesswork is it ? Catholics think they have the truth, Muslims think they have the truth, so how is a person supposed to know ? If it's by works then the GB and Board of Directors and Watchtower Soc and CCJW and all their legal departments have fallen down badly and brought God's name into disrepute. And they have silenced the Anointed, the ones that are the true spiritual Jew.

Well you are all still 'in the wilderness' on manna, but you get bored with it and ask for something different. Hence those you serve give you different things to play with. A bit like parents trying to please their children i suppose . Shame none of it is really the 'truth' that the Org pretends it is. So not only new tools but new message too.