JOHN BUTLER

I still have a strong dislike for Germans, As WW2 ruined my life from before I was born. (I know that sounds crazy) And I suppose I'm still racist. I'm not interested in mixing with people from other countries. But like you 'it's people that i can't stand' too. I've been asked if i dislike black people and my answer is I dislike everyone unless given a good reason to like someone. I'm kinda glad guns are not legal here in the UK. I think part of trying to serve God has to start off with being honest with oneself. Then one has to know one's own faults and capabilities. I have no problem talking with anyone, it does not mean I like them.

I do often wonder why God would cast the Devil down to the Earth. Surely there were plenty of other places God could have put the Devil. Then you get this thing about free will. But there is no free will. Because you either serve God or you are serving the Devil. But it is strange that God loves humans but he sends down a 'roaring lion' to devour us.

Truth isn't for everyone. Very true. Truth is not for the GB of JW Org that's for sure. If you study topics on here you will see, amongst the 'sarcasm and agendas', that there is a lot of serious conversation. Quote "People cannot act decent.' Are you blind to the Child Sexual Abuse within the JW Org / Watchtower ? Now then tell me, people cannot act decent. And that is inside the Org.

@James Thomas Rook Jr. Thank you for that cartoon. At least you show me as human. And I do find it kinda funny that you tend to agree with a lot of my 'stuff' sort of I know I come across as immature that's because I am. But you put the same points in to more perspective. You make it real and can back it up more readily than i can. It's not about taking sides, it's about getting the truth out there. As a side note: I'm enjoying this forum much more since I've stopped reading the Kid's comments. Your point on the word Brazen is very important as it shows the Elders are given free reign to use any excuse to 'remove' people or put them on the 'watched list'. By your comments though James i can see that you agree that the GB / Watchtower / JW Org has a lot of cleaning out to do. They need to be washing the inside of that dish or bowl as Jesus said, not just polishing the outside. And in my opinion it takes people from inside and outside tp push for changes. To me it looks like 8 million people that are trying to do right, being Governed by 8 men and other hierarchy that enjoy doing wrong.

A funny thing was that in Bristol Filton Congregation, here in England, brothers would wear football ties to support their favorite football teams Now wasn't that being no part of the world , and didn't it cause bad feelings amongst brothers that supported different teams. Somethings you see in the Org do really make ya laugh. JW Org ties being sold online then are they ? I remember a line from a film "The money is in the merchandise"......

And I always thought that the JW org / Watchtower didn't have a clergy class and a hierarchy. But it has both. The GB are the hierarchy and the Elders are the clergy class.

I do believe that some Americans used to have 'special' number plates for their cars, such as JAH -1

Quote " Humans tend to like hierarchies of people, representative government, etc., in spite of the potential errors. " So you are now admitting that the GB are the hierarchy. hierarchies a system in which members of an organization or society are ranked according to relative status or authority.

@TrueTomHarley don't talk like a wet cabbage Tom. It's just your dream that you want opposers, as you call them, to think that way. I've already given a suggestion as to how a group of leaders could be earthwide and still act as 'one', and they would have their fingers on the pulse in each country. They would know the laws and traditions and problems in their own country. They wouldknow exactly how to word things and to deal with specific info' I think you only love it so much as the 8 men are basically all American white men.

@JW Insider Having just read your comment I would say you are too close to the GB to make a balanced appraisal. If you are 'friends' with them then your judgement could be clouded by such. You have said yourself they : call themselves the "Governing Body" they have taken upon themselves. Granted that this does not excuse them from false teachings and doing nothing about traditional false teachings from the past. Nor does it excuse them for not doing enough to expose the potential gravity and extent of child sexual abuse and child physical abuse. So here we have 8 men that chose to be the Governing Body, then call themselves the 'Faithful and discreet slave', placing themselves above all the Anointed (Luke 14 v 11). They deliberately 'err' (do things wrong) and then use the excuse that they are not inspired. So these faults that you have mentioned (above) , the GB are spreading Earthwide. Yet you love them for it ? The increase in JW's is in uneducated / less well educated lands. The reasons are obvious. Those people do not dig deep enough into the GB and it's Org, before committing themselves to it. I was also like that of course, I believed all i was told, then believed again when told of changes, I was as blind as those less educated ones are. The size of this group of elders focusing on the study of the Bible for teaching purposes is kept manageable for purposes of efficient discussion and decision making (8 or so persons). So 12 Apostles was too many was it ? There is always a ready "crew" of persons who can help research issues, handle their incoming and outgoing communications, translation printing, etc. They are in a position to hear questions and concerns about current doctrines and procedures that could potentially come from all over the world. Which is it ? Do other people handle the communications or do the GB hear the questions ? Basically what I'm saying is that ordinary congregants questions and complaints NEVER reach the GB. I wrote to the London Bethel once and the reply was horrific. They basically told me to not bother them and to ask my local elders. However i wanted an opinion from those I thought would have more knowledge and understanding. How wrong I was. They have a mindset that makes them want to imitate the serious responsibility that the early Christian apostles had when they devote themselves to prayer and teaching. This one made me laugh ! Is that why they talk so much about young men in tight 'pants' and also about masterbation. Be real, they have no idea what to teach and what to leaver to people's personal conscience. They have the ability to respond to questions and issues very quickly and consistently in a way that the entire world of congregations can benefit from. Dream on. They knew about the Child Sexual Abuse problem years ago. How 'quickly' have they dealt with it ? But it's been a known thing for the JW Org / W/t Soc / Bible students to deliberately drag it's heels when it might upset some folks. It took them 30 years to give up Christmas even though they knew it was wrong in the late 1800's. It took them 70 years to give up Smoking even though they knew that was wrong too. Not too bright, no, they didn't want to lose congregants. It they has sorted the CSA issues properly and quickly I think they would have lost too many elders. Things that are legal and expected in one country might get the congregations in trouble in another country, for example. Now this is one in my favour I think. I have suggested that anointed brothers from different countries should form the Leaders of the JW Org. With world wide web communication, world wide telephone communication, and does anyone still use Fax to send hard copy documents ? There is no shortage of ways of communication around the globe. So why have mainly 8 American men running the show ? Would make much more sense to have people that know their countries laws and traditions. I'll finish on this one. As long as all the persons who listen to them are willing to question and critique the doctrines and processes, as all Christians have a duty to do, then there is nothing wrong with having a "Governing Body." If anyone questions or criticises the GB they are accused of 'causing a division in the congregation' and can be disfellowshipped.

I am finding it soooooo funny, this pretence that the modern day GB is just a 'follow on' from the J-GB as you folks are now calling it. Is this GB / W/t / JW org brainwashing ? Or are you people so indoctrinated as to actually believe it or make it up yourselves ? Is there any mention in the Greek scriptures, of words that directly / exactly translate into Governing Body ? If so please put proof up on here so that I can check it out for myself. There is one thing however that I've found interesting, it seems it was only by some people complaining / objecting to certain 'rules' being made, that anything was done to change the situation. It also seems that the Apostles and older men were available to talk to directly, to be able to make complaint. Totally different to today's GB who seem to hide behind locked gates and won't even do interviews or answer questions from ordinary people. I do hope Anna knows that 'err' has a double meaning. It can mean deliberate wrongdoing. And relating those anointed Apostles to the GB now is quite funny. Remember Anna your GB is not inspired, the Apostles were.

Now't as strange as folk. As olde Amos Brearly would say.

Haven't you finished that yet. Must be a big un.

I no longer read Billy the Kid's comments as I know he is a sick man and probably cannot help himself. God's word through Christ says we should forgive 77 times (continuously). I've forgiven BTK for the way he has insulted me and therefore do not need to read any further comments of his. I do honestly believe that he is unwell and is best ignored as we cannot help him.

It obviously means different things in different contexts. 'All scripture is inspired of God' should mean that all scripture was written under the direct inspiration from God. However the question has been raised as to whether the writer was inspired generally or just during the time of doing the writing. My point would be that if All Scripture was written under inspiration, then it would also take God's inspiration to understand it. And, if the first century Christian leaders were either inspired generally or inspired when they took specific action, then the 'modern day' Christian leaders would also need to be inspired generally or inspired when they took specific action. The GB say they are not inspired.

Ok back from travels, so continued reply to Tom's questions. When @JW Insider reveals a matter that would otherwise remain confidential, do you rush straight to your keyboard and tell your 900 friends? No, I mainly upload 'news articles' direct as i find them. But the reason for starting the FB page was to get opinions from others. It hasn't happened much. But I'm not in need of 'limelight' by giving information that others don't have. I just make available on the page things that are general news items. I also advertise this forum in the hope that more people will visit here. Did you make it when the opportunity was ripe? Did your testimony send school and/or government perpetrators to jail? I hope you had that opportunity and I hope you came to enjoy some sense of justice because of it. I contacted Reading Council (using the Data Protection Act) and obtained some personal details of my time in the Home, but much of it was 'detracted', is that the right word, scribbled out anyway with black print. One page was completely blacked out. But I was told I had to use the 'Freedom of Information Act' to obtain details about other people / staff that ran the home at that time. However to gain that info' I had to attend the office, ask for files, find sections that were relevant, and inwardly digest the words, because I would not be allowed to copy, photograph or write notes concerning that information. That would involve a 130 mile trip to Reading, a stay overnight or two, and for what, just read the info and not record it. Then the worse thing happened, the Jimmy Savile scandal started. It was all over the news about how he had abused children etc. It began to involve more 'well known' people and just escalated... So I stopped my investigation into the Children's Home staff etc, as it would have looked as if I was just jumping on the bandwagon. I know I should have done it all many years earlier but I didn't, and I wanted to do as much investigating myself as I could. So I never completed that 'mission'. Since the Jimmy Savile situation the Child Abuse investigations have grown more and more, about different people in different situations, including in religions. Do you also make clear that your hair-trigger sensitivity on this issue has nothing to do with Jehovah’s Witnesses? If ever I talk to people about my past situation I do make it perfectly clear that it did not involve Jehovah's Witnesses. However, the link is that whilst I was still in a vulnerable state mentally / emotionally, I joined the JW organisation as it 'seemed' a safe and loving environment. It turns out that at that time, late 60's / early 70's, in some places, the Org was at its worst regarding Child Sexual Abuse. Many of the cases that have come into courts and are still coming into courts around the globe, seem to centre around that era. But having been on here a while now, I have read comments from people that have also known about more recent cases. So although many of those cases are 'old news' it does not mean that it has all stopped. Hopefully that answers your questions @TrueTomHarley

@TrueTomHarley On your Facebook page, do you also post the background that you have bravely posted here, background that accounts for your extreme sensitivity on the subject: Just two points on this one comment from Tom. 1. The FB page is not about me personally so no i don't go into details about me. It was set up to try to get feedback from others that are in the same position as me, Ex -JW's still wanting to serve God. I put up news articles but very little personal stuff. 2. There is nothing brave about me giving personal details, it was done more in context as it was sort of hinted at by a previous comment. This page it seems has become more personal, people throwing mud at others rather that discussing subjects. If you think i am extreme so be it, that is your thoughts. From my viewpoint it is just that I DO HAVE personal experience of this so I DO KNOW how it feels and the results that never fade. Whereas many on here and in JW Org just see it as collateral damage.

I did say it's not a lot but it's a few people looking and reading what's there. i can hardly put on a 'broadcast' can I ? And i can't start up a magazine, and I'm not up to writing a book, like you. However there is enough news media /reports out there now thanks to all the efforts of victims, ex-JW's and others that have made things known earthwide. And whether you agree or not, i think it has made the GB / Org make changes. Changes that would not otherwise have been made. And on my 'travels' here and elsewhere (many will roam about) I have found out much more than I originally knew. It has been and still is a great learning curve.

Literalness. Unlike paraphrased translations, the New World Translation renders words literally as long as doing so does not result in awkward wording or hide the thought of the original writings. Translations that paraphrase the Bible’s original text may insert human opinions or omit important details. Um, I think this has been disproved. I think the word BIAS comes in somewhere.

@TrueTomHarley Um, the GB / org do not do social media, ok. But they do broadcasts. But I'm sure I've seen evidence that when people want to talk to the GB face to face, to ask questions ect, the GB have refused interviews and conversations. The GB seem to live behind locked gates. So how is a person to express their feelings or ask questions ? Obvious answer is social media. Plus, many of us feel the need to warn other people about the dangers of the JW Org. Where is better than social media ? My FB page about Ex JW's has just reached :- You've just reached 900 Page likes. Good job! It's not a lot but i don't promote it and hardly upload anything to it. People are finding it. People are talking about it, so it does a small amount of good. If I can give a few people a little information about the problems in the JW Org the n I'm happy to do just that. We can agree on this one thing “wisdom is proved righteous by its works.” Hence its easy to see that the GB are not wise in a spiritual way. Of course they may have the 'wisdom of the world' with their high paid Lawyers doing their dirty work for them, just as the Romans did the dirty work for the religious leaders of the Jews, buy killing Jesus. Quote : The common view of opposers is that the Witness headship is telling members what to do,.... Tom, do you really forget that most people you call 'opposers' are actually Ex JW's ? They have been there, witnessed it all. It's not hearsay it's real experiences. You know, more real than those 'experiences' they do on the 'platform'. Who are you trying to fool Tom ? Yourself maybe.

work alongside people we don't necessarily trust. Children do it all the time. Some people say Look at those children playing together', but when you look closely you will see children playing alongside each other. Each child is doing their own thing. The secret is not to get emotional about it. Life can be very practical. Being retired I can choose what I do and when I do it. My wife chooses what she will do and when she will do it. Sometimes we choose to go places together. We share the housework. She cooks I wash up. She visits her mum and the children, i work on the cars and do the garden :) None of it involves trust or love. It is just practical living. As for people outside, I have no need to trust anyone, I'm quite independent at the moment. Mixing with people does not involve trust. I go to auctions to view and sometimes buy, i converse with the staff and others there but it does not involve trust. Think deeply for a while, how many things truly involve trust? Most things in life are just practical or natural things.

I thought you said many JW's use the American Standard Version or something like that. Sorry if i misquoted you.

If and when we see them abuse their authority, we can point it out as Paul often did, I like this. There were times when an Elder would give me a headache / chew my ear off I think is an expression, and i would simply say to him, 'Show me three scriptures to back up what you are saying, or go away'. They would walk away. One of the points regularly was not wearing a jacket and tie in hot weather. In my opinion neither God nor Christ demanded it.

@JW Insider Quote "Those who have seen the evil in people up close and personally may actually have a keener "intuitive" sense of potential evil. Or perhaps that "intuitive" sense has been destroyed for the same reasons. I have no idea, so I am not trying to answer John directly on this topic." In a nutshell. I suffered 3½ years of sexual abuse, physical abuse and emotional abuse in a Children's Home, from age 13 to 16½. It was suffer and keep quiet, or be moved into an Approved School, which i was assured was 10 times worse. We didn't have sex education back then so i was very nieve, and I was under the 'care' of the council (local government) so could not just walk away from it. I could not report it to the police as they were all part of the same system and i would have been 'moved'.

@TrueTomHarley Ok let's take one step at a time with your over long comment. Over long deliberately to deceive people, to try to take people away from the true points of my comment. Nice try Tom. 1. I quote " This is exactly how it was in the Jewish nation, per laws given to Moses, that serve as a last-ditch method of discipline." No in the Jewish nation people were born into it, they did not volunteer themselves into it. A big difference. Hence I've said before, children should not be baptised, they should have to wait until they are 'adult' age, then it would be voluntary. When a person volunteers themself to be a JW (gets baptised) they think, at the time, that they are 'giving their life to God'. But in truth they are joining the JWOrg /W/t / GB run club. However it is voluntary, not born into. Big difference. But once a person is in that 'club' they become ensnared. They are told not to mix with people 'in the world', not to do business with 'people in the world', always bo no part of that 'wicked world. So of course they build their whole world around the JW Org . W/t, GB. Then they are trapped. All their eggs in one basket. If they leave the 'club' they lose everything, in a sense. However as I've found by leaving that 'club', it does not mean turning my back on God or Jesus Christ. 2. Many witnesses openly admit that they are physically in / mentally-spiritually out. You took this and tried to make a comedy out of it. It didn't work Tom. It didn't work because so many people know that many JW's are not 'fully committed' to your GB and it's JW Org. I think it was James that said that many JW's don't even use the NWT bible. As for doing preaching hours, it only takes ½ an hour PER MONTH to put in a Monthly Report. 3. Quote "There is no NT writer who does not deal with apostates. If they existed then, why would they not exist now? " It is so easy for you, the Gb and the Org to use that silly word Apostates. I say silly because it loses its meaning by overuse. The NT writers suffered opposition from Jews that did not believe that Jesus was the Christ / Messiah, or did not want to let go of the power they had. And from the Romans of course. However those 'writers' were inspired of God and could do works to PROVE it. What the GB / JW Org / W/t is suffering now is not opposition to God or Jesus Christ, it is opposition to false teachings, opposition to man made rules, opposition to Child Sexual abuse in the JW Org / w/t, opposition to the GB demanding that they are seen as the only 'Faithful and discreet slave', opposition to oppression from Elders, get the picture. Your GB cannot prove that they have the authority to give themselves the position they do give themselves. (Remember your argument about proving the Trinity). They do not have WORKS to PROVE their authority. Tom you should probably carry on writing fairy stories as you seem to live in that sort of a 'world', a dream world.