JOHN BUTLER
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Everything posted by JOHN BUTLER
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I just used your own words Billy. I haven't twisted them, just quoted them. They are your own words Billy. Not understanding scripture is no excuse before God -
I like that BTK recognises this : Quote BTK Not understanding scripture is no excuse before God. Thank you Billy you have just condemned the GB and the Watchtower Soc' and JW ORG. With your own words you say it. Remember how misused the scriptures relating to the 'Superior Authorities', and 'This Generation' ? Remember how the Bible Students / JW org said Armageddon was coming in 1914 and even printed magazines to show it What Watchtower said prior to 1914 What Watchtower claims it said prior to 1914 "The year A.D. 1878 … clearly marks the time for the actual assuming of power as King of kings, by our present, spiritual, invisible Lord - …" The Time is At Hand (1911 ed) p.239 "The Watchtower has consistently presented evidence to honesthearted students of Bible prophecy that Jesus’ presence in heavenly Kingdom power began in 1914." Watchtower1993 Jan 15 p.5 "But bear in mind that the end of 1914 is not the date for the beginning, but for the end of the time of trouble. Zion's Watch Tower 1894 Jul 15 p.226 "Jehovah's witnesses pointed to the year 1914, decades in advance, as marking the start of "the conclusion of the system of things." Awake! 1973 Jan 22 p.8 For many decades, it was plainly stated that Armageddon would come whilst people born prior to 1914 were still alive. You Can Live Forever in Paradise on Earth (1982) p.154 At the 2010 annual meeting, John Barr presented another new understanding of the generation. 97 year old Barr was an apt choice to deliver this talk, being the last of the Governing Body born before 1914. He explained the generation is now to include 2 groups whose lives "overlap" since 1914: If it is truth that a generation includes an "overlap" with those born in 1914, why did Jehovah allow the Watchtower to teach for decades that a generation would end within the lifetime of a person born prior to 1914? Why allow it to introduce several new and contradictory teachings since 1995? Surely this proves Watchtower teachings are not directed by God.
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and by whose standards. By God's standards and they are the only standards that matter. And I never said 'everyone' I said some people. God has granted us all the ability to reason and to judge, otherwise we would be robots. We all make judgements every day I would imagine. We might call them decisions but those decisions arrive by our making judgements on matters or even judgements on people. I had to make a judgement when I was deciding to leave the JW Org. Three months research, not three minutes. So it was a judgement i made, not in haste, but in taking time to think about, and pray about, my part in an organisation that i knew in my heart was wrong. Some people on this forum actually agree with me on some of my findings, and they even give me fresh information that i knew nothing about, but they prefer to stay inside the JW org. So 'God has not given me any more that he has given others' in this respect. Many people know about the GB's / JW Org's failings and deliberate lies, but some of those people prefer to be part of it. I know not why. you will ultimately be judged by God more severely more so for leading his children astray It is your opinion that JW's are God's 'children', nothing more than your opinion.
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@Srecko Sostar You are right. The only research i did when i was a JW, was in JW books and magazines. It was like being brainwashed. What i cannot understand is some people on here know that the GB and the Watchtower / JW Org are wrong, but they stay in the JW org. They must have their reasons for staying in but i could not do it.
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TTH says "The things Jehovah’s Witnesses have reinterpreted, or even flip-flopped on, are all superfluous things " Such as the 'Superior Authorities' for instance, and 'This Generation' for another. And such as not all Anointed are the faithful and discreet slave, only the GB. solidly established for over 100 years: But altered many times in the process. Armageddon due in 1914, 1975 and now it 'so close' it's 'just around the corner'. TTH you make me laugh. You are so blinded by your GB and all the other hierarchy in those two 'organisations'. The org didn't even figure out the name Jehovah, they 'stole' it from elsewhere. They are all trimmings on the tree, and not the tree itself. No, the tree itself is Almighty God, Jesus Christ, the Anointed, God's written word, faith, love and mercy. It does not include the GB or JW Org. And yes the purpose of Jesus coming to earth and giving his life willingly was to give glory to God in heaven. And the one through whom any human will get saved is Jesus Christ. Christ is our judge, having been given the authority and power by his heavenly Father. Unfortunately the GB of JW Org think they are our judges. They add further burdens to the shoulders of others, and will not even lift a finger to help. The apostles said, recorded at Act 15 v 28 & 29 For the holy spirit and we ourselves have favored adding no further burden to you except these necessary things:29 to keep abstaining from things sacrificed to idols, from blood, from what is strangled, and from sexual immorality. If you carefully keep yourselves from these things, you will prosper. Good health to you!” Oh yes and look it says 'the holy spirit' which proves it was inspired. But your GB and hierarchy are not inspired are they ?
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@JW Insider This last paragraph of yours really hit home to me. I hadn't even considered those points. Thank you. Back to the top of your comment :- Quote and that there is more evidence for it than Noah had that there would be a Flood. Noah's direction / instruction came directly from God. And the direction proved true. 13 After that God said to Noah: “I have decided to put an end to all flesh, because the earth is full of violence on account of them, so I am bringing them to ruin together with the earth. 14 Make for yourself an ark* from resinous wood.l You will make compartments in the ark and cover it with tar inside and outside. 15 This is how you will make it: The ark should be 300 cubits* long, 50 cubits wide, and 30 cubits high. 16 You will make a window for light* for the ark, one cubit from the top. You should put the entrance of the ark in its siden and make it with a lower deck, a second deck, and a third deck.17 “As for me, I am going to bring floodwatersoupon the earth to destroy from under the heavens all flesh that has the breath of life.* Everything on the earth will perish.p 18 And I am establishing my covenant with you, and you must go into the ark, you, your sons, your wife, and your sons’ wives with you. So you are saying that Rutherford was spoken to directly by God ? No I don't think you are. You are saying that Rutherford took it upon himself to pretend to know what the future was. And he was wrong. Now for him to believe personally was one thing, but to put it forward as 'fact' was a lie. Because he knew he was not inspired by God's Holy Spirit. Did you, John, never say something that was not true, because you really believed it was true at the time, and then found out later that it wasn't? Were you lying? Yes many times when i was a servant of the JW Org. And yes I was lying. Because I did not 'make sure of all things' first. But there is no single group called the FDS. If you know this then you are saying that the GB are lying. Are you saying that God has given you more insight that God has given to the GB ? If it is plain to you that the F&DS is not a small group of men, then why isn't it plain to the GB ? It's not about whether we claim to be anointed or not, it's about being faithful until the end. Once again I will differ with you on this point. Didn't the Israelites once 'demand' to have an earthly king ? Humans need to be guided by other humans it seems. And it makes sense to have an earthly part of God's organisation. But this earthly part needs pure guidance. If God sees it as good to have men to lead the way here on earth, then imo God will provide men who are pure in heart. And once again imo those men will be the Anointed ones, brothers of Christ. Sons, to receive an inheritance. Your idea of being faithful until the end, but faithful to whom ? If we reject the GB and it's orgs, that does not mean we reject God and Christ. The GB and it's orgs have proved themselves to be not worthy of trust. They say they are not inspired of God's Holy Spirit. In fact they have proves such by their actions. Even their lawyers tell lies in courts. The GB has shown no love to victims of CSA and seems to have caused more problems than they have solved in many ways. But that is just my opinion, oh and possibly the opinion of thousands of others
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@JW Insider Just because they are not THE faithful and discreet slave of Matthew 24:45 So you agree that they are telling lies then ? You agree that the GB are not the Faithful and discreet slave ? It has nothing to do with whether one is anointed or not. I totally disagree with you on this. Those not anointed need to be 'clinging to the skirt / hem of a 'JEW' ' The JEW is spiritual of course, a class of people, the Anointed ones. Srecko has covered a lot of what i would say but i will add to it anyway. Also it's not correct to say that they claim only THEY can give instruction to God's people. Every publisher is allowed to present the good news of the Kingdom to those who may become God's people. Every speaker from a platform can be giving instruction to God's people. The GB use a Writing Department to write the literature. The publishers might as well be just leaflet distributors. The 'carts' used to give away literature, only offer what the GB / Writing dept print. Publishers are told not to have their own opinions. i know remember, I've been there, done that. So a publisher offers a pretend 'Bible study'. it's pretend because it is actually a study of a book written by the GB / Writing Dept, not a proper study of God's word. ( At a later date this book will be banned and replaced by another book, with different lies in, when so called 'new light' appears ). The speakers from the platform are just puppets. They are given strict outlines written by the GB / Writing dept. So once again the GB rules over the congregations. The Elders are given a rule book 'Shepherd the Flock', which they must obey without question. Once again written by the GB / Writing dept. For most Witnesses, who prefer not to question, and not to make sure of all things, it probably makes them more comfortable this way. Yes, just puppets. They just push out the lies from the GB / Writing dept. They serve the GB and it's two 'orgs'. The JW Org & the Watchtower. These 'witnesses' are not God's witnesses, they are witnesses for the GB and those organisations. Doesn't God tell us through his word to, 'Make sure of all things' ?
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Really? You must think the Bible is full of all sorts of esoteric ideas that are required for some rituals that must be performed according to a specific type of knowledge. Well the GB seem to think so, as they say THEY are the FAITHFUL AND DISCREET SLAVE and only THEY can give instruction to God's people.
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I think the Apostles did works to prove that they had God's guidance and that they were inspired by God's Holy Spirit. I agree that we all need to trust in God through Jesus Christ, but I do not trust the GB or JW Org at this time as they seem to prove themselves unworthy of God's approval.
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You are showing God, you don't have confidence in him to make judgment calls on earth. Or am i just showing the GB / JW Org that i don't have confidence in them to make judgements on God's behalf.
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By accepting the choices of the early "church fathers" we are actually putting faith in the fact that Jehovah made sure that sufficient manuscripts meeting the necessary criteria were saved and sufficiently "revered" to remain true to the purpose of scripture, uncorrupted. The scriptures were copied so often that we can now trace back to within a hundred years of the death of the last apostle and find that there was a high consistency to the copies of manuscripts, and enough manuscripts to remove any corruptions that did find their way in. But now I'm hearing on here that the GB / W/t / JW org have changed scripture or words in scripture. Or written it is such a way as to suit their own purposes. 'Brazen conduct 'for instance. And is 'torture stake' in the original; scriptures ? And then we have the misuse or wrongful meaning of scriptures such as Superior Authorities. So God has done a fantastic job of preserving scriptures only to have it all messed up because no one is inspired by God's holy spirit to use scriptures properly.
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Holman Christian Standard BibleWhen His parents saw Him, they were astonished, and His mother said to Him, "Son, why have You treated us like this? Your father and I have been anxiously searching for You." So now, was Mary sinning to talk to Jesus like that ? Or was Jesus wrong for not notifying his parents that he was staying behind ?
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the clear answer as to why God allows suffering, the knowledge of what happens to people when they die, and even the reason that they die? He has forgotten all about it. Are I see TTH is getting the Word of God, mixed up with JW org once again. TTH seems to think that JW's have the monopoly on God, Jesus Christ, and God's written word. My road does not lead to heaven Tom. If God shows me mercy and resurrects me then I will be here on planet Earth. "One wonders what would satisfy him" Why does one wonder ? I've written it on here often enough. A plain observation of the Anointed (spiritual 'Jew') that we should be clinging to. An organisation led by those Anointed that show proof of their being inspired of God. Such an organisation would of course be clean on the inside as well as the outside. Remembering the words of Jesus to the Pharisees. Wash the inside of the dish or bowl ................ And it would know how to use God's written word properly. Quote " It frequently happens when ones leave the JW faith. They lose every ounce of spiritual discernment that they once had, to become completely immersed with matters of the here and now. " It frequently happens with JW's that they are so blindly serving their masters the GB and it's orgs (plural), that they cannot see that the ones they serve have no spiritual discernment. And those said JW's cannot bare to look at the here and now as it is too painful for them to see how much of a mess their GB and orgs are in. Works both ways Tom
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After all, with many religions, members may not actually leave, but how would you know if they did? Yes TTH, but with many religions you are not blackmailed into staying either. In JW Org the blackmail is that none of your family will speak to you, your business may fail due to other JW's turning their back on it, your whole social life will be wiped out in one day. So due to this, many that are not brave, remain physically in. I could have remained physically in and sat at home and done nothing. How simple that would have been. I would still have had all that social life . (joke).
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@JW Insider quote "Wow! Is there something holding you back from saying what's really on your mind?" What is it BTK says ' I'm frightened of no man' Well neither am I, when I'm behind this keyboard .... I'm sorry but that's how I relate it. If 8 million people are serving the GB and it's W/t and JW Org, then they are serving the Devil, as the GB etc are not serving God or Christ. I've no need to go into all the reasons that this is easy to see. Simple. BY THEIR WORKS YOU WILL KNOW THEM. And the things now being revealed about the GB and its organisations, and it's legal departments, are proving that they do NOT have God's approval. So who's approval do they have ? Satan the Devil's of course. There is no middle ground, God or Devil. You serve one or the other it seems.
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There is church among Jehovah’s Witnesses but it is offset by a higher participation rate. After all, with many religions, members may not actually leave, but how would you know if they did? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Total misuse of scripture. Back then there was only one Christian way to serve God through Christ. You were either in or out. Now there must be millions of 'christian' organisations all pretending to serve God. People become apostate to one religion by joining another. And so it is with JW Org. So until anyone can prove that the JW Org is the only way to serve God, then it's all hot air. Basically JW's serve the GB / Watchtower / JW Org. That is not serving God through Christ.
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Paul lamented in his day "For there are many—I used to mention them often but now I mention them also with weeping—who are walking as enemies of the torture stake of the Christ." Ph.3:18. https://biblehub.com/philippians/3-18.htm I don't see the word 'torture' anywhere. Is it another word that the GB / W/t / JW Org added ?
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BTK maybe seems to forget that Jesus was actually being disobedient to his physical parents by not remaining with them for the journey home. Yes his place was in the temple but at the same time his place was with his parents too. But to compare children now to Jesus is just twisting the whole idea. BTK has a strange way of looking at things. Jesus was 'born' as a Jew, a member of God's chosen nation. Children now are not part of such a thing. It is all totally different.
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To quote BtK " I also finished reading yet another ex-witness book published this year. I wish these people would find something new instead of the same old thing. Shunning, Disfellowship, 1914, Blah! Blah! Blah! " They also have the CHILD SEXUAL ABUSE to write about, but strangely enough you didn't mention that kid.
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Oh dear, another baby throwing his toys out of the pram. @Outta Here If you don't like the heat then stay out of the kitchen it's SIMPLES. This is an OPEN forum. You might be able to get into the 'secret' forum if you ask them nicely ....
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Are you suggesting the Watchtower is misappropriating a core doctrine written in scripture? 2 Timothy 3:16-17 New King James Version (NKJV) 16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for [a]instruction in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work. 2 Timothy 3:16-17 New English Translation (NET Bible) 16 Every scripture is inspired by God and useful for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, 17 that the person dedicated to God may be capable and equipped for every good work. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ I think we all may be guilty of taking a scripture out of context purely for our own purposes. But I'd like people's view on this particular scripture please. BTK seems to find it important and asked if the W/t have misused it. However I have previously pointed out that this scripture was written before all 66 'writings' were completed, AND that ALL SCRIPTURE had not been brought together as one 'book'. It is therefore my opinion that the scripture, here in Timothy, was relating to the Hebrew writings. Otherwise it was prophecy.
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Quote SM, "Butler, you are pulling old information, as I had address before, the demographics of adherents in this regard of the faith group have been increasing, especially an increase talk about God and the Bible. They will be hitting the 9mil mark soon." Yes well I'm not including all the under 5 year olds and others that are forced to do the 'ministry'. If you didn't include all those under 18 it would probably be a lot less too. Remembering that Jesus was 30 years old before he started his ministry. And remembering that all children in most 'civilised' countries are in subjection to their parents whilst under 18. Probably the reason for such great turnover in the JW org, the young are forced to do the ministry or bribed to do it. But if the GB / JW Org want to call 3 year olds and 5 year olds, ministers of God, then so be it. Even if those young children are actually doing it against their will.
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Can people be inspired to do the devils work? Certainly! Yes, you only have to look at the GB of the Watchtower / JW Org, and their lawyers and their wicked Elders and others that commit Child Sexual Abuse. You only have to watch those stupid videos too, to see they are not inspired of God. And then read how many times they change scriptural meanings. And how they actually change words in their Bible to suit their own purpose. Oh yes, the GB are inspired by the Devil. Calling themselves the 'Faithful and Discreet slave' and telling other Anointed that they do not need to contact each other or have a personal opinion on scripture. And it seems that 8 million others are also inspired by the devil to support such goings on. Tell me, were the Nation of Israel inspired by the Devil when they offered their children to Molech in the fire ?
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He is from "everlasting to everlasting" which can only happen in a universe that has no beginning, and where time happens all at once. Well I presume God created time as we know it. It is only 'as we know it' because 'man' has divided it and subdivided it, but before man started measuring it, it was happening. It's quite strange to think that before time, before Earth etc, there was God, the Word, the Angels living in another dimension.
