JOHN BUTLER

Tell me TTH, what do you regard as genuine ‘apostasy,’ ? Are you one of those that believes that if a person leaves the JW Org they become a non believer in God ? What is an apostate in your viewpoint. It is a person that turns away from a former religion ? Or is it a person that turns away from God ?

It's great to read some humour from Billy the child, on here. He is sooo funny. For instance and I quote :- " The Watchtower reverted to being like the first-century apostles with scriptural understanding. The Watchtower in itself is by far the only organization that is keeping Christ commandments. " I would really like to know exactly whom Billy means by 'the Watchtower'. He never gives me a straight answer when i ask him. To me the Watchtower is a magazine. Yes also the Watchtower and Bible Tract Society. But, who exactly is Billy referring to when he says "The Watchtower reverted to being like the first-century apostles with scriptural understanding" ? Does Billy mean the GB ? or the Writing Department ? Or whom ? Who knows. Anyway this Watchtower society which was formed in 1881 as Zion's Watchtower and renamed in 1896, has made so many blunders that it is completely inadequate for spiritual guidance as it cannot be trusted to provide true facts. It shows itself as not having any guidance from God or by Holy Spirit. If Billy wants to serve an idol, 'The Watchtower', that is of course his choice. However, as Srecko mentioned, serving Almighty God through Jesus Christ, is the correct way to do it. Billy ends his comment with a belter :- " Either you obey Gods laws and commandments, or you don't. It's that simple. How will false religion (false Christendom) accomplish that? " Um Billy, I think you have such a bad memory or you just cannot bring yourself to acknowledge the failure of that Society / Organisation which you worship. The Watchtower and it's JW Org do not serve God properly and because they are not chosen by God, they cannot supply the 'right food at the proper time'. Everything they do is guesswork and when they get it wrong they simply guess again, and get it wrong again. Scripture 'This generation will by no means pass away.' How many times have they changed the meaning of this one ? 'The superior authorities'. How many times did they change the meaning of this one and WHY ? Billy the proof is there before your eyes. The Watchtower / GB / JW Org / Society, have no idea of truth and are not guided by God or by holy spirit.

I see Billy continues to amuse us. Poor Billy forgets, or wants to hide the facts that the GB / JW Org / Watchtower twists the meanings of scripture to suit their own ends.. This generation will not pass away, twisted how many times ? What is it now a generation on top of a generation possibly maybe ? Oh dear. Superior authorities scripture changed how many times ? Of course it was changed to give power to the society when they wanted more power over people and it took away the idea of people having their own conscience. But of course Billy doesn't want to know that. And of course we have the terrible misuse of the Two Witness rule, just to hide Pedophiles in the JW Org and to pretend the Org is clean. Come on Billy, there are the things Jesus condemned the Pharisees for. And the point where you pretend to be a JW but will not use the NWT, well I think that speaks for itself. If you were a true JW then I'm sure you would support the Org's translation of the Holy Scriptures. Have a good day Billy, but you do seem so confused

Wow this is all so funny. Billy thinks it is ok for a Witness to use things that seem to pretend they are scripture when those people whom he serves (the GB and it's Writing department) say those things are not scripture. So then billy thinks that makes him "more of a witness" by using 'fake scripture'. Oh dear, when we think on scripture it should make us humble not 'exalt ourselves'. (Matt 23 v 12 ) For those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted. I think Billy is showing his true colours now.

How many times has scripture been misapplied here? Not as many times as it has been misapplied by the Society, GB and Writing dept' of the JW Org.

When you say Jesus was breaking the laws, which laws are you referring to. God’s laws or the provisional laws set forth by the Pharisees and High Priest. An example of a provisional law was the law Moses applied to divorce. How about the mandate of stoning for adultery. @BillyTheKid46 You do puzzle me sometimes. I really do not think you are a JW at all. The scripture you have used regarding Adultery is a scripture that is not contained in the NWT, because said scripture is thought to have been a later addition added by a translator and it is quite possible that Jesus never said or did those things.

I would have thought with sex education in schools as it is, JW's would not need the deep precise details that the GB loves going into. The scriptures you quoted do the job just fine on their own. It seems the GB even go OTT by saying if a man and a woman are alone in a house together, they must be having sex. No 'two witnesses' needed. But they don't seem to say if two brothers or two sisters are in a house together that they are having sex, i wonder why ? Well it was you that mentioned Sodom and Gommora.

I mentioned this same fact a long time ago but folks turned against me on it, saying it was me that was obsessed with it.. However I'm glad you have reintroduced the point. Thank you JTR Jr.

Very good comment @Srecko Sostar Exactly true.

@BillyTheKid46 You see your list of types of people means nothing because it is all subject to personal interpretation. Unbelievers, unbelievers in what ? What YOU mean is people that don't believe that your GB are the F&DS. But, those people may still believe in God and in Jesus Christ. So they are only unbelievers in the eyes of JW's. Unrepentant, but unrepentant to whom ? Once again you base it on the JW Org's viewpoint. You expect people that know how bad the GB and it's Org are, to crawl back and ask forgiveness from MEN. Bas association that Christ warned us to stay away from. Well I am staying away from bad association, the JW Org is the bad association, full of lies, deceit and pedophiles. Lack of bible understanding, now that is definitely JW congregants, because they rely on the GB and writing department to supply all their 'Bible knowledge'. Unfortunately the congregants do not have the intelligence or inclination to question anything for themselves and so are totally misled. But the congregants only have themselves to blame really because if they asked God, through Jesus Christ, for the guidance of His Holy Spirit, then God would show those congregants that the teachings of the GB and JW Org are false. As for your point about " should a captain and crew be needed on a symbolic ship, or can we navigate on our own spiritually since God will hold us personally responsible for our own actions. " I will come back to one of my favorite scriptures about 'Ten men clinging to the robe of a Jew'. The Bible tells us that the Anointed will be recognisable and that spiritually minded people would follow those Anointed. I completely agree with your point that God will have us judged as individuals, by Christ or the angels. So yes it up to us which way we go. But then I think God will make it clear, when He is ready to do so, who the Anointed really are, so that a person can follow those of the true Anointed.

Poor poor Kid. He seems to be going off in all sorts of strange directions, encouraged by JTR Jr of course. Did i ever think I would gain any spiritual direction from this forum ? Well it's good for a laugh I suppose, whilst I'm waiting for documents to process online. And no thanks, I don't need alcohol or other 'substances' to bring me happiness. I can chill quite well with just a coffee.

At least I'm facing the truth of what happened, whilst you are still hiding behind the GB lies. Maybe that just means i am mentally / emotionally stronger that you are. I don't need that crutch any more. As for having 'new found peers', do I ? I don't think so. However you seem to think you know better.

What about if they were mistreating CHILDREN ?

@Srecko Sostar Now that is a bit of progress. Thank you for this information, I've been waiting to hear it for a longtime. @BillyTheKid46 Here you are Kid, some news for you. But of course you won't believe it. Let's hope they find some good evidence with proof of same concerning JW Org. After all, the JW's think that their Org is better and safer than any other and that it has God's approval. I think not.

Having read lots of comments on this forum it is very easy to see that all that Jehovah's Witnesses have is their belief in their Governing Body and it's Writing Department. If they believe, as a certain cowboy would have it, that a person can gain no true knowledge from the bible itself, then how else does a person gain true knowledge ? It would seem that Jehovah's Witnesses rely totally on their GB 'boses' and on the Writing Department of same, to tell all JW's what to believe and when to believe it. Why do i say 'and when to believe it' ? Well you have to keep up you know . What is said to be 'truth' by the GB and co one day, will be said to be totally untrue the next day or week. JW's have nothing, no proof of any 'enlightenment' from above. They talk proudly about having 8.5 million members earthwide, but how many Muslims are there earthwide ? How many Catholics earthwide ? Numbers prove nothing as it can be clearly seen. Yes I was once fooled by all the 'niceness' of a few brothers and sisters. But once I got to know those people properly I soon found out that they are no better than people in the world. The JW Org is no better than any other organisation that pretends to serve God, but the JW Org is in some ways more dangerous. It wraps itself around people's lives and restricts people's freedom of thinking. It pretends to have 'special knowledge' from God that no other organisation has. But then if one looks closely one can see it is all just a smoke screen. The JW Org only has 8 men in America dominating it, and 8.5 million people worshiping those 8 men. I do feel a bit foolish having wasted years of my life believing all of it's lies and deceit, but I congratulate myself for not being frightened to ask questions and do research for myself. No matter what any Jehovah's Witness tells you, the truth is, all they have is a belief in their GB, and they follow their GB's orders via all the others in charge including the puppet men Elders. At meetings, conventions, assemblies, on the ministry et al, all they do is use the literature provided for them by the GB and the Writing dept. Without question they pump this 'information' into other people. When conducting a supposed 'bible study' it is actually a book study, studying the words of the GB / writing dept, not studying God's written word properly. They spend more time reading the paragraphs and answering those questions than they do reading scriptures and focusing on God's words. It is a horrid way of brainwashing people, washing out the common sense and replacing it with lies from the GB / writing dept. Dictating, giving orders and pretending it is God's will. Removing the love that people have for one another and replacing it with discrimination. Shunning family members, turning their back on anyone that is not a JW by saying all other people are just 'part of the world' and therefore wicked. Frightening people with threats of 'armageddon' killing them. And now it seems that they are almost begging for contributions as they seem to be getting short of money. Well paying off millions in compensation for the Child Abuse / Pedophilea of course. Selling off Kingdom Halls too as funds run low. Oh how low that religion has sunken. Are they really stupid enough to believe that God is with them ?

Is this really the best you can come up with child ? Oh it's kid isn't it, well same thing. The GB wouldn't know Christ's standards if he punched them on the nose. Once again you worship your GB. What have i taught myself ? Well I've taught myself that honesty is important to God even though your GB don't think it is. I've taught myself that just as Christ values people's lives and cares about them, then so should I, even if your GB doesn't care about people but only cares about themselves and the business / JW Org. I've taught myself not to fear men, even though the Elders of JW congregations try to 'lord it over them' and to bully the congregants. I've taught myself to think for myself instead of just being a puppet to the GB and it's Org like you are. But you are a blind worshipper of the GB, so there is no point talking sense to you as you cannot understand it.

Well if you put it like that @Outta Here I suppose I went out from JW Org because I'm not a Pedophilie and I don't condone Pedophilia, so I proved that I an not of that 'sort'. Your quote of scripture not mine. As for me being an 'idolator' and then realising it, you are right. Exactly right. I did serve the JW Org as I thought it had 'truth'. But now having studied the bible myself without the misguidance of the JW Org, I see through the veneer of the GB domination. @JW Insider has just confirmed much of what I believe about the GB and it's Org. @James Thomas Rook Jr. says he has proof of same, if he is being serious. Actually i have 'come clean' about it many times on this forum. Maybe you don't read many of my posts. However, I always think of Saul that thought he was doing right until Jesus showed him what was really right. Saul would never have become Paul without guidance from Jesus Christ. Maybe, just maybe, Jesus sees those in JW Org that think they are doing right but are doing wrong, then maybe Jesus shows them the right way. Maybe Jesus will help people to leave the JW Org and to find the right way to serve God. I haven't given up hope In God through Christ. Quoter "some temporary relief for the resentment and embarrassment they feel," Do you really think the Apostle Paul felt that ? Look how off track Paul was, but Jesus guided him in the right direction. Do you think Paul was embarrassed ? I think Paul was too busy doing God's will to be concerned for his own embarrassment. I'm also too busy to be embarrassed. Oh by the way the scripture you have used doesn't match the purpose you had for it. : "They went out from us ... But they went out ... Does not = But, actually, they were rejected To leave of one's own accord is not being discarded or rejected, it is LEAVING OF ONE'S OWN ACCORD.

Oh @JW Insider it's probably not worth the effort to answer you but I have a bit of time before my darling wife puts my dinner on the table for me. Let's start with a Quote "You probably know that there were infamous cases of immorality that Paul referred to in his letters even to the very Corinthian congregations that Paul himself had "planted." Are look Paul made the immorality known. Whereas, the Elders of the JW congregations hid it all in leters to their HQ and in filing cabinets. Why did the elders hide it ? Because on instructions from the GB. That's why it is all coming into the open now. It follows scripture about 'nothing being hidden that will not be revealed' ... Quote " But when the Org sees it as a problem, .. " The Org didn't see it as a problem. It was put 'in their face' by victims of abuse. The problem the GB saw was the cost of the court cases and compensations. Why do you use examples of people 'of the world' such as Isaac Newton etc ? They were not 'supposed to be guided by God's Holy Spirit' were they ? Your GB pretend to be the 'Faithful and discreet slave' providing the PROPER FOOD at the RIGHT TIME'. BUT they have to keep changing the food as they give poison instead. So how can they be guided by God to do that ? Do you really think God deliberately misguides His people ? Quote "I can't see how it "suits themselves." The Armageddon threats are obviously to frighten people to get baptised and serve the JW Org. I'm sure we've had quotes on here where the Watchtowers would say the only way to 'get saved' through Armageddon was to be in the Org. More members = more donations. But then, as with the 7,000 year creative days, it all falls apart and can be seen as lies. Quote "the inability to question 1914" ? Are you suggesting more lies ? Quote "It's now just a matter of fully implementing the processes that have been put in place." And the two witness rule, what of that ? I'm sure in my own mind that the scripture was not for that use. Quote " I think we agree completely on shunning. I have no doubt at all that we have been implementing the shunning practice in an unchristian, unscriptural, and unloving manner. " So are we looking at a 100% turnaround on it then ? I very much doubt that. Remember ,'By their works you will know them'. Quote " I would never claim we are more moral than any other group of people.". That's one thing we can agree on then. But that being the case, thousands of JW's are hypocrites. So it's an unclean Org. Quote "If enough Witnesses perform their Christian duty, however, even a mass of disfellowshippings will automatically produce changes. " I was hoping for a mass 'leaving the JW Org when I left, but it didn't happen. I was hoping that would have produced change. Enough for now , my wife is calling me to dinner.

@Anna I would love to see who you really are, to see you as a person that is so blind to the deliberate faults of JW Org. Your long answer is so full of, I think the GB call it garbage. But I'll probs get told off for saying that... It is true that ultimately God reads hearts and reads motives, and that we cannot judge anyone, Well it's good that Jesus Christ read the heart of Saul, when Saul was persecuting the early Christians isn't it ? Otherwise the Apostle Paul would not have existed. Quote " For example there are those who condone things that God hates and implicitly rejects (eg. practicing homosexuals). " I see you didn't mention Pedophilia then. You really are blind. Quote "Firstly, the organization is only in place because of the preaching work. " BUT, the message keeps changing to suit the GB and it's writing dept'. Scripture is deliberately misused to misguide innocent people. The Catholic church is earthwide too with it's false message, so not much difference there. Quote "Secondly, the organization strives to strictly adhere to the scriptures." Anna, wake up, the Org misuses scriptures. The 'This Generation' scripture is a great example. The 'Superior Authorities' scripture is another example. Are you being deliberately blind to all this ? Quote "Also, as far as I am aware, those who "leave the org." do not continue to preach, and no longer strictly adhere to the scriptures. " 1. I do not preach anymore because I realise now that i only preached what I was told to preach, and that was not serving God it was serving the JW Org. I am quite prepared to admit that I do not know what 'truth' is, so i would not know what to preach. I truly believe that the scriptures, well the deeper parts thereof, are for the Anointed and that the scripture concerning 'ten men clinging to the skirt of a Jew' will take place when God makes it truly known who the Spiritual Jew' really is. 2. As for 'strictly adhere to the scriptures.' You are right in my case, but then i was never doing so anyway as I was serving an Organisation, so I was never strictly adhering to scriptures and the Society, GB, JW Org, never did and still do not. Quote "There are also many that do not see those things you listed as reasons to leave the org. " That is because those people serve the Org as their god. They do not look for truth, they are just spoonfed and accept it all. Even when the meanings of scriptures are changed by the GB or writing dept', the congregants do not even question it, they dare not for fear of being disfellowshipped. Those poor people do not know any other life, they are trapped inside that giant bubble, and frightened to look for God themselves. They rely on men that are not anointed with Holy Spirit, to guide them. The blind leading the blind, and we know what happens next.

@BillyTheKid46 Are you actually a Jehovah's Witness ? I'm beginning to think not Quote "There are several reasons why a person would go directly to hell do not pass; go " There is no 'hell'. Only death and a possible resurrection. I say possible because not everyone, it seems, gets a resurrection. The dead are conscious of nothing at all. I feel sure enough that i will be dead a long time before Judgement Day arrives. Then it will be in the hands of Jesus Christ as to if i get a resurrection or not. And I cannot imagine that people will be resurrected just to be punished. And your comment " Is telling people the truth, bullying, " . JW's don't know the truth as they keep changing their ideas to suit themselves. JW's worship their GB by accepting everything the GB say. The Elders worship their GB by doing everything their GB tells them to do, without asking questions and without conscience or moral thoughts. And once again i say, your GB have no authority from God or from Jesus Christ. Your GB are false prophets and fake 'slaves'. They have proved themselves false and fake by their words and deeds.

@BillyTheKid46 Quote "Therefore, John, this is really not off topic. If there was an overseer that said OUR FAITH IS GARBAGE AND NEEDS TO BE TORN DOWN This is exactly what it means, with the examples given here." The overseer does not have that authority from God. Neither does your GB fake 'faithful slave class ' But if you need to worship the GB then so be it. Putting your faith in MEN is against God and against His written word and you know it. You will be judged for doing that. As for me, yes, I am lost in many ways. I cannot understand why God does not make it more plain to humans which way to worship Him. I won't repeat scripture concerning the anointed as you will totally reject it again. As for the 2 Peter 2 scripture well we can all have own own opinion of it. I think it refers to the Anointed... Verse 20 is needed to fully get the idea of it all.. It is quite easy for those inside and outside of the JW Org to see how those 'taking the lead' act as bullies. The threat of Armageddon is one point. Pretending it is 'so close' when it could be hundreds of years away.

@JW Insider If the Society / GB and all in 'command' had acted in the way that Paul was saying in that 1 Corinthians 9 19-23 scripture, then the Earthwide Child Abuse / Pedophilia would never have happened. But you seem to see it as just collateral damage, necessary for the 'progress' of the Org. Quote "Still the core of the religion itself is one that does perhaps the best job of all religions in fighting the machinations of the Devil: " How can that be so when many of the beliefs are based on lies or misinformation and meanings of scripture constantly change to suit the purpose of the GB ? And also as I've mentioned above the Child Abuse. And you yourself mentioned the Armageddon threats from the Org. When in honesty they have no real idea. They keep moving the goalposts to suit themselves. And of course the shunning we will never agree on but we can agree to differ. And I've only just spotted this "and pointing out the value of Christian morality", now that has to be a joke. And the "We must question." Really ? and get disfellowshipped for doing so.

@Space Merchant Nice to know you are thinking of me

What is written in Law is not always what takes place in action, not here in the UK. And let's not get into politics and that woman, because she tells more lies than a common thief. Plus what is right in 'law' is not always what is right in the eyes of God.

My goodness topic wars. (A bit like Robot Wars only funnier) We we are all totally off topic of course and we all have our own opinions. @BillyTheKid46 I honestly don't know who is a Witness and who is an ex-Witness, or who was never a Witness at all My opinion was that @JW Insider is still a Witness but working for both sides, a bit like Judas did. My feelings are that he/she thinks the JW Org as a whole has the 'truth' but that maybe the GB are going off track. As for @Anna , I'm totally confused. I thought she, I presume she is a she, was a Witness as I thought she wrote in the present time about her kingdom hall and elders. And you Billy, even you confuse me. Sometimes I think you are a Witness and other times I think you are a religious person but not a Witness. Hence, everyone, I tell you this, once again. When I upvote or downvote or make reference to a comment, it is ONLY about that ONE comment. One reason for that is I have a bad memory and cannot remember ten comments back, and a second reason is that a lot of the time,such as now, we are totally off topic anyway, so we cannot be commenting on the actual topic heading. I do wish people would be their real selves, real names, real photos, etc. It would make my life so much easier. Good morning From me in Devon England at 9.30am. I am not a robot