César Chávez

You can always know someone has driven off into the ditch once they leave off preaching the kingdom but instead start rolling their own scrolls and smoking them.
Musing more...
It seems that I need to keep studying this business of conscience and it's relationship to organization and organizational discipline as a requirement for identifying an organization truly fulfilling the commission of making disciples and teaching them to observe (OBEY).
Seems like the word "OBEY" is a four letter word to those perishing.
My arguments need to be short, scriptural and the illustrations, emotionally evocative.
I also need a list of organizational "conversation stoppers" and ways to defuse these obstacles.
***Again...just thinking aloud
 

To the best of my knowledge it is. Of course if you consider JWI, TTH, Xero and me apostates then I guess in your over imaginative mind it is not...

I do wish that those people obsessed with AN ORGANISATION, would tell me, in chronological order, which Organisations Almighty God was using from the year 100 through to the year 1850. 
All complete names of ALL the organisations, with dates from and to, please.  I look forward to your thorough reply, because you people seem to be so confident that you have these answers. 

This is interesting because my 26 year old son and i were having a conversation about the Law or Moses / Nation of Israel
( I will start a separate topic of the conversation above )
Let us get one thing clear. The NATION OF ISRAEL had LAW.   If you were born into, or, if you became part of, the NATION OF ISRAEL, you were under that LAW. 
However, CHRISTIANS are NOT under LAW.  Christians should live by BIBLE PRINCIPLES, which would be governed by a BIBLE trained CONSCIENCE. 
So xero's comment above smells badly of the Devil's work. Xero is trying, but failing, to prove the need of a dictatorship organisation.  
Once again xero links two completely separate things,  (quote) " a faithful Christian or a faithful organization".  Those things are miles apart. 
Quote " if these failed to either submit to organizational authority".  = dictatorship.
Quote "an earmark of what I'd expect of a true religion - that the religion would expect and enforce biblical standards and principles." 
The Watchtower and multiple JW orgs do not have "biblical standards and principles."  but they do enforce man made rules. 
If you want to go back to the Nation of Israel then your GB / ranks / Elders bind up heavy loads and put those loads on the shoulders of congregants, but those in 'control' do not help to ease any load. Pharisees. 

Yes and it seems the Watchtower are even supplying the paper with a special logo in the bottom corner. One that can be read by 'posh' cell phones. 

This is a strange expression. Who hate THE FAITH.   Faith is a personal strong belief in something or someone unseen but yet 'known'.  
Are you replacing the Watchtowers words 'the Truth' with your words 'The Faith' ?  
It would appear that 'the faith' of JWs is in the things seen, not unseen. Those things seen being the GB and the massive amount of real estate that the W/t own. 

Read this as, dictatorship of the Elders. 

And you xero lick it up as if it's strawberry jam. 

But what you are doing here is, putting your trust in 'men'.  It is so funny how JWs will deny somethings 'men' say, but happily follow other things that 'men' say when it serves their purpose.  

I'll give you a clue.  I am alive, so my mother must have fed me some reasonable food when I was young. However my mother was a whore and she was the cause of my father's death, so I hated her. 
Now apply that thinking to JW Org. Within a life time a person (or an Org) may do a couple of good things, but it does not excuse all the wickedness.

Actually what Xero means is, his life is so much better when he turns his back on truth .  His choice of course, if he cannot face reality.  Maybe he is going back to his mother's basement now. 

And this person says he is an Elder.  @JW Insider has already called him out about D O's, asking him when he was last in the Org. 
And once again this person presumes it knows what I'm doing or not doing. 
I have made known and will continue to make known what future this 'world' has and what future the Earth has. i make known who is the ruler of this 'world' and why. And of course i make known who Almighty God is and who Christ is, and what they have done, what they are doing, and will do in the future.  BUT i don't pretend to know the 'day or the hour' of the coming Judgement. 
But xero's comment is really sad and unfortunately shows some kind of mental instability. 

That's a good one. Jesus was obviously testing them because it does sound off putting. So those that stayed with him. Did they stay because Holy Spirit guided their hearts and minds, or was it that they simply didn't have anywhere else to go ? 
It was a bit of a sheep and goats dividing moment maybe.

So then tell me, Who is the guilty party here ? 
the elders likely made a mistake, probably because they assumed that neither of these were truly anointed, because of traditional conditioning around previous teachings.
because of traditional conditioning around previous teachings. Tell us about this bit please.
Conditioning.......... Brain washing, indoctrination. 
Previous teachings............... False 'truth'. Fake information from a fake leadership. 
You and Tom write sentences so freely, without really thinking about what you are writing. 
But in truth you are admitting that the GB and the Elders are not fit for purpose. 

Leaders of a Jehovah's Witnesses church 'made a 15-year-old girl listen to an audio tape of her own rape for four hours for her to say it was "consensual"', Utah Supreme Court hears
It would seem that JWs use the same tactics. 
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8942521/Jehovah-Witnesses-leaders-girl-15-listen-recording-rape-four-hours.html

Another joke from CC but he actually hangs himself with his own rope here. God will punish me as an individual BECAUSE I have an individual conscience. God will not punish the congregation for my sins because God will not be using collective conscience.

This whole comment above is so funny that it's hard to know where to start to answer it. I presume Tom is on the wine or vodka or something. 
Of course Tom will now provide proof of God's true guidance and give names of the organisations that God used from the year 100 through to 1800. Tom will now show how God was using specific organisations when, ops, That Russell guy, he said there was no need of an Organisation, and he had plenty of people agreeing with him it seems. 
Tom also deliberately tries to hide the FACT that I am NOT Anti- organisation. Even governments are organised to a degree. Families are organised. Businesses are organied. So too, religion will be organised. 
Let's quote Tom here " If God is worth his salt, he will provide adequate human leadership."
Yes Tom, God will provide a True Anointed remnant to replace ALL false religions in good time, before the Judgement comes. 
Quote "Jehovah’s people will cut their shepherds some slack, just as was necessary in the first century,"
Yes well. the blind leading the blind. Catholics will probably cut the Pope and the priests some slack too. 
But please give me 5 examples of this 'first century' slackness, where the 'followers' cut their leaders some slack. 
Quote "But they also recognize that these ones will be relentlessly attacked simply for the Christian shepherding work that they do."
No, JWs are so blind that they believe the things they are told. Most JWs do not do research into things such as CSA. They do not research scripture from an outside viewpoint. They believe that their leaders are the ones to follow without question. And most JWs easily give up their conscience to follow orders. 
Sorry to be so blunt, but when you talk rubbish then you have to be open to a reply. 

You hear that, you old library hen?

you have all the propriety of the hangman who is offended by the word s**t

This is not really a serious topic, it's more of, Have you ever heard of such a thing ?
My son who is 26 and spends a lot of time 'online,' came to me with an unusual topic of discussion.
He has been reading online that, there are people which believe that where the Hebrew scriptures mention homosexuality, it is really talking about pedophilia.
He says that he has read, that a scripture about 'a man laying with a man' should be put to death, actually reads that 'a man laying with a young boy' should be put to death. 
It seems to imply that some people are saying it refers to pedophilia not homosexuality. 
I haven't investigated it at all for a couple of reasons.
1. From my viewpoint we do not live by the Hebrew / Mosaic Law, we live by the Bible principles given through Christ and the Apostles, recorded in the Greek scriptures.
2. I think those people involved in this 'way of thinking'  are trying to justify homosexuality, and I know that Almighty God hates / condemns homosexuality as shown in Romans 1 verses 24 through 27.
The point of the topic is that i had never heard of people using the 'reasoning' that the Hebrew scriptures referred to pedophilia not homosexuality. 
Any thought ? 

Yes scripture sank in and stayed in. It was Watchtower teachings that i threw away because they are lies  

What rubbish. Paul was directly commissioned by Christ. Jesus Christ appeared to Paul when Paul was Saul. 
Acts 9 :4
4and he fell to the ground and heard a voice saying to him, “Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me?” 5And he said, “Who are You, Lord?” And He said, “I am Jesus whom you are persecuting, 6but get up and enter the city, and it will be told you what you must do.” 7The men who traveled with him stood speechless, hearing the voice but seeing no one. 8Saul got up from the ground, and though his eyes were open, he could see nothing; and leading him by the hand, they brought him into Damascus. 9And he was three days without sight, and neither ate nor drank.

The Org once taught that people should serve God because GOD DESERVES TO BE SERVED, not for the gain of everlasting life. 

This isn't an example of what I'm getting at. Opposers would insist that if you have no complete answer for every issue, you simply should shut your mouth and not go door to door.
Now as a former atheist, I thought certainly the public ministry was incredibly important as an exercise for anyone who imagined he had the truth. The ministry would at some point disabuse him of any truly glaring deficiencies as the "wisdom of crowds" would flatten any truly deficient belief he might hold at present to be true.
Opposers would argue that it's YOUR job to argue as in insider on behalf of the HH who might not even have the intellectual capacity to understand the question to begin with. THAT is an unreasonable position to take.

Yes, the Watchtower / JW org relies on MONEY to keep them running. The money comes from dragging in more innocent people that believe the lies about 'Only baptised JWs will survive Armageddon'. So those Orgs have to keep pushing the lies that Armageddon is coming in five minutes, so you'd better get baptised in this Org.