xero

Brother X...did you see the game last night? X - Naahhh...I didn't have any money on it. (fact is I don't watch football because I'm into track, x games, worlds strongest man competitions, and women's skating...)

I had to handle a case where we were getting ready to recommend a brother as an MS and some trouble popped up from some other congregation who got wind of what we were going to do. Apparently 15 years previously when he was 15 he was at some poorly supervised pool party and something may or may not have happened w/another couple of JW's 15 yr old daughter. But guess what? The police were called, and investigation was made, the society was notified and turns out neither the police, not anyone else thought there was anything going on which warranted further concern - save for these poor examples of JW's. In any case this bro wasn't in their cong and hadn't been for over a decade, yet somehow he was responsible for how their daughter turned out. (WTF?). BUT, you actually have galactically stupid elders who don't know the difference between what the KNOW to be true and don't KNOW to be true. So I'm sitting in this meeting and this pin-head elder blusters "These are serious charges!" (against the bro being recommended)...And I counter "You know Jose...You are absolutely right. But not for the reasons you imagine. This is serious because if this family doesn't put a sock in it, they could be guilty of slander! This has already been looked at. It's a more than decade old event, he was a minor at the time, the police investigated, the society investigated....this is case closed. But the family spreading slander against this brother IS serious." He looked at me with his barnyard animal expression one of surprise mixed with stubbornness until several other elders jumped in and agreed. This is the thing people don't get about elders and humans. People can mean well and get it all wrong. But I couldn't let this brother get hammered and slandered because of this other weirdo JW family whose family were almost all out of control. (All that was on them. Not the congregation)

These sorts of differences in gospel account differences has been discussed by dozens and dozens of individuals... I don't use solely WT material in going through all these issues, however literally 5 seconds of searching provides the lazy one w/a banquest https://answersingenesis.org/jesus/resurrection/christs-resurrection-four-accounts-one-reality/

This passage is not often examined, but it highlight's how Jehovah allows his heavenly administration latitude in making suggestions and applying the same. This "Divine Council" has a lot of discussion in various circles. My thoughts in this regard are that the 144k are to be additions/replacements for the defective ones. This, though then elevates previously lower forms of life, like humans, albeit w/everlasting life, w/having "life in themselves", something the others in the spirit realm have been thought not to possess, needing some manner of sustenance to keep alive. These replacements, the 144k will apparently be elevated to essentially immortal status. It is the ultimate answer...Jehovah says "I know my work w/humans is good, and further these selected ones can be trusted with even what other faithful in the spirit realm don't possess."... Anyway...my thoughts on that....

Making anyone a mandated reporter...just what we need, more Karen's bothering people because they are not happy if someone isn't as miserable as they are

Exactly. I was raised a Catholic, went to parochial school, altar boy...(that made me realize I didn't want to be a priest or a dentist after seeing the dental work of everyone in the parish). Of course the mass was Latin at the beginning and then it changed, and then there was that additional offering each other the sign of peace thing they stuck in, which seemed fake and nobody wanted to do it....I think I went to confession once, and that made no sense. Like it was a slide rule for sin and you had to do X number of "Our Fathers" and Y number of "Hail Mary's" to "pay off" the sin. That made no sense to me at age 8. Neither did the book "My Catholic Faith" which had anyone not a saint doing time in purgatory, which was identical to hell, but you'd get out after being on fire for a bit. Neither did that part at the end of the book which had everyone who died at the last judgment brought back to they physical bodies so if they were in hell already, they got double hell and the people in heaven got double heaven??? WTF?? (of course I didn't think those words at 8-9...but the sense of that was what I felt)... What's funny is that I was trying to figure it all out (Mom was no help...when I told her I was afraid of dying she just said "don't worry, it won't happen for a long time"...which wasn't at all comforting...It was "Oh, yeah babe! You are sitting on a ticking time bomb, but enjoy your ice cream, trust me, you have a long fuse" Meanwhile I'm craning my neck to see the countdown timer. Then I found this book that fascinated me "From Paradise Lost to Paradise Restored" on the shelf and I was trying to read it when my Dad told me "I don't want you reading that book!" and hid it from me. I searched the house, but all I could find was his Playboy Magazines (which Mom had no problem having me look at, but weren't that interesting at the time)...BUT that book, what I remember reading made more sense to me that anything I'd heard in church or read in "My Catholic Faith" and it was a JW publication. I was disappointed I couldn't find it, but then I scanned one of my father's college textbooks on human civilization and ran across this part about Neanderthals and burial rituals....It was all confusing. I began asking questions of the nuns and that went nowhere fast. I figured out that Jesus was a Jew, and that we supposedly liked him, so in 3rd grade in religion class I asked "Was Jesus a Jew" and the old sister said "Why yes he was", to which I replied "So then how come we aren't Jews?" and she loses it, grabs me by the ear and hauls me outside the class....Then the nun principal comes down and there's all this talking and class changes....(we stayed put, and nuns shifted rooms) and I had a note to take home.....When I get home and ask mom, I didn't get any good answers there either...just "Oh, she's an old nun and didn't know what to do"....(Still I thought, my question remains).... Undeterred, I began stalking nuns on the playground to ask them why they became nuns ...Nothing like being a kid and seeing fear in the eyes of adults who are supposed to have answers to these kinds of questions, but had none..... I eventually ditched being an altar boy along w/all the other boys in the parish because I was a little mysogynist and felt that girls shouldn't be used as altar boys, and if they were, then this clearly wasn't a place for real boys, only sissies...So no more altar boys in our parish, also no boy crossing guards for the same reason.... Anyway..we ended up moving away from Laredo to Dallas and elsewhere...We pretty much slowed up going to church at all.... When I was in 6th grade I tried to read the Bible all the way through, but it didn't make much sense to me....We had an Old Green NWT in the house....I remember the inside said "From the R. L. Hopes"....So that was the Bible I was trying to read.... ...anyway...enough rambling.... Clearly Catholicism didn't answer anything from my perspective...

Good last question, but one ALL OF US have to work on answering. We don't want to be like the lazy one who's hidden his hand in the banquet bowl, but is to lazy to bring it to his own mouth. I've always felt that IF I have a question, then it is MY responsibility to go about finding the answers. Not everyone has the same questions, therefore not everyone else has the same responsibilities.

Tom, I appreciate your underscoring these facts.

I hope it continues for you. I keep praying for more faith and understanding. I keep circling back to the logic I've used for some time now - 1. I've established there is a creator 2. I've philosophically determined that all good qualities which exist necessarily inhere in this creator and that in a greater supply than I 3. That there is a reason for all this pain and suffering and that it will end... It's this last part. The time involved which I think is the point which eats away at one...Understanding why so long at times...

That was lengthy, Tom, but interesting. I keep trying to keep my head up because if I look at what's happening I find my anxiety increasing and wondering "Is it now?" and like the scripture says "expectation postponed makes the heart sick".

Speaking of human solutions. A sort of pre-crime initiative, or a future urim-thummim test of guilt. The U.S. Navy apparently experimented w/fmri and eeg to be able to determine previous experience w/certain Navy medical training based on analysis of these scans after the subject was shown a series of images. Those lacking the experience displayed a different pattern. https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-machines-that-will-read-your-mind-11554476156 As it turns out, potential child abusers brains respond differently to certain images. A thoroughgoing secular government which unilaterally decided child abuse was illegal and wanted to go up-stream to prevent those w/the potential for such actions could be scanned and disallowed from positions which might allow these situations. https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-machines-that-will-read-your-mind-11554476156 I find this all rather interesting, but as the world becomes increasingly secular and "immoral" stops being "immoral" because morality can't exist w/o God, it's merely "Society has decided we want more of "X" and less of "Y" and this is our proposed path." Ultimately it's a 1984/Brave New World situation - one w/o free will. This has been Satan's argument (at least one of them) - that free will is a mistake. Jehovah says "No. Free will is not a mistake. Jesus proved a human could do it, therefore you're a liar." But - w/o the kingdom every single human will be driving themselves to death chasing utopia (and every man-made utopia has failed, because every man-made utopia kills off free will and any humans unwilling to comply)

I don't say I disagree however before someone hands me a crescent wrench when I ask for a 9/16th socket I need to fully understand what "fixed" is before I get on the business of "fixing". Jesus did say "I have many things to tell you, but you can't bear them at present." - This enigmatic statement could mean many things. The issues are many, the solution the kingdom. The problem as the world and even some JW's see it is that these imagine they have it all figured out how it's going to be/go (I don't). I understand the desire "Lord, are you restoring the kingdom at this time?" They view human stop-gap measures as being God-given or betrayals at times to various issues when human measures, albeit w/attempts at doing things God's way are attempted. So much impatience - me too. On the other hand. The kingdom isn't described as waiting on humans in the bible. It crashes down and ends the flailing about.

Tom, I remember getting assigned two literally red-headed step teenagers and their ghetto-still-has-a-bullet-fragment-in-his-head as studies. One of the boys you couldn't tell which eye was looking at you. They were from Kentucky and their mom hooked up with the ghetto-rat when she was in detroit as a nurse. She was the nurse. He'd been shot at close range in the face w/a small caliber gun and I don't think they got it all out, so he'd be erratic at times and threatening. So I studied w/the boys and him separately. Tim made it to baptism. Keith couldn't get it together to qualify. I think he must have had an IQ of 80. Doug, the step-dad came close to qualifying, but his erratic behavior would get the best of him. One day as I explained to the boys that when you said "Amen" to a prayer, that meant you agreed with the prayer and that you couldn't say "Amen" if you disagreed. So they brought up some weird crap Doug would pray for, and I said, "Well does that sound like something Jehovah would like?" And they said "No", and I said "Then what do you think about "Amening" that?" And they said "It's not a good idea." I said "Ok", "But you don't have to make a big deal out of it. Everyone prays for the wrong stuff at times, and maybe it's right, but if it doesn't sound right to your conscience, then don't "Amen" it." So later Doug gets wind of my "teaching". Calls me up and tells me to come over. So I do. Then he comes out all mad and says "You only said that because I'm black!" ...I said "No. I said what I said because I believe it and it's true." "You can't go blaming all your problems on your skin color Doug. You act aggressive and wonder why you have problems. Our PO is black, our service overseer is black, your book study conductor is black. The brothers behind the counter are mostly black." Then he said "You better stop teaching them like you're teaching them or I'll come to the kingdom hall and spit in your face!" I said "You do what you gotta do Doug, and I'm going to KEEP on DOING what I'm doing w/those boys." About two hours later he calls up and apologizes. Like I said he was volatile, but his prayers were the best I've heard once he stopped w/the crazy. This is Keith today...Years ago he was coming to the KH dressed up like Elvis and decades later he's still doing it... https://flote.app/post/f19799c6-034b-432b-b5c3-8704cb7a5d51 I know Jehovah has a place for people like Keith.

Yeah, people in the west who have time to worry about some of this stuff can count themselves fortunate.

I hate to say it, but this reminds me of something my non-JW dad used to say "The meaning of life doesn't mean anything to a person with tight shoes". So a lot of the moaning I here sounds like 1st world problems. All that disappears when you have "tight shoes" - whatever that physical pain/psychological pain currently is.

Seems like a fair analysis.

Interesting observations. On the other hand it makes sense that there would be a greater enthusiasm for criticism among any group which claimed to have the truth. In fact I thought it quite idiotic as an atheist that anyone promoting their particular brand of faith didn't consider their brand of faith to be "the truth". Now you'd be hard pressed to find a Catholic apostate, or a Lutheran apostate.... I remember on the matter of exploring religions a statement by the unitarians in leo rosten's "religions of america" - "You might be a Unitarian and not even know it!" My thoughts are, then apparently being Unitarian is meaningless.

I don't get the fascination. I speak Spanish, and depending on where you are, "estoy en cuerpo" can mean something innocuous, or it could be a come on.

I'm not sure those should be your best examples. When you're dealing with greek, there's a latitude of way one might express it in english - context is everything. Not only this, NWT isn't unique in its matter of translating it in this manner. https://www.biblestudytools.com/matthew/9-18-compare.html

One thing I've had hammered into me over the past decades of pioneering, studying w/mentally ill people, people who were out of jail, homeless people, professors of anthropology, teachers of farsi at the local mosque, chinese buddhists from hong kong (using me to practice english), professors of astrophysics, ranchers, ex-football champs, a hip hop artist and so-called normal people is that I'm not more worthy of survival than any of these. In fact many are arguably better people personality wise. People who really care about other people. That's been my lesson. I believe the truth of the bible in outline taught by JW's w/exception w/regard to rather specific ideas surrounding certain events in the last 100 years. My experience coming in was that these were some of the most open-minded people I'd dealt with. I watched them w/my gf for about six months just observing these meetings and going to get togethers (she was studying - I was an unhappy atheist). I felt that out of respect for her interest it was worth my time to watch them for a time to see what I thought of them. At some point, I thought "I want all my friends to be JW's, but I don't want to be one." I could see weird people in the congregation and normal people - as an outsider. Weird people always give me the creeps, but most of the people I talked with didn't do that, like every other religion. My change in attitude came from the first apologetics I'd ever seen "Is the Bible Really the Word of God", the old book on Evolution (a little blue one)...then I started hitting Christian stores and found a bunch. I hadn't started to study yet, but went w/my gf to one day of this district convention when they released the book "Life How Did It Get Here - By Evolution or Creation". I read it that night. What's funny is that I had almost all the referenced books because I was taking a lot of evolutionary classes at the university - I was in the midst of E. O Wilson's - Sociobiology and had finished Dawkins book the Selfish Gene. I was amazed. I went and got every book I could find on this, one of my favorites being the book "Darwin Was WRONG - A Study in Probabilities". After eating up all I could on this, I was a thoroughgoing theist. So I brightened so no doubt. God exists!.... Next step...has he communicated w/us.... So I doubled up on apologetics relative to the manuscript and historical evidence for the Bible. I used Gleason Archer's "A Survey of Old Testament Introduction" and "Is The Bible Really the Word of God" ...anyway a lot more in this regard....I bought the cassettes for the bible and listened to them while I was running. (I'd started to study now, because I felt the guy who was studying w/me was OK, but he was kindof not that logical, so I got passed on to another couple of elders and we'd go through the material. It'd go like "How does that make you feel about Jehovah" (a sample question), and I'd go "I can see from x that if y were true it would be reasonable to feel z, but I'm not quite there yet." It took a while. I had more questions on biology and so they brought in this sister who'd been a masters biology major and I got to grill her w/questions. Me - "What about the dinosaurs?" Her - "Soil building takes time. Dinosaurs were great processors of plant material....." It went like that. I wasn't and still haven't been thoroughly convinced on some of these matters. (but is it important, when there IS a creator?) Then there was the whole 1914 thing. That was something needing analysis. The question then and now was not whether the Jews were in captivity 70 years, that was not disputed....At least not to believers, but chasing this chronology is a collossal pit....Not that I don't recommend chasing it, just that no one was ever convinced of anything via chronology. (Except if you were a Jew in Babylon and you got word it was getting close) Anyway...I've wandered. My final point is that I don't believe the bar for survival to be only JW's. I'm thinking it's the majority. Now does this mean some event may be allowed to impact the earth and the only way people survive is through divine intervention? I think so. Then the rest who perished in my view would likely get resurrected - face it - it's only the blasphemy against God's spirit which according to the Insight book is hard to know if anyone has done this or not....so I'm sure Jehovah is more merciful than any of us could imagine. So then you follow your conscience - it's yours to follow or not, to wound or not. If you know how to do what's right and don't that's on you. If someone's doing something wrong and that's out of your control - well "Desiderata"...

I don't believe in a "we" when it comes to taking responsibility for "my" moral decisions. There is no end to the deflections which I or anyone else might latch on to committed by others, but is this getting you anywhere? I'll tell you, you don't have to be an expert to find out what's wrong or supposedly wrong with anything. Anyone w/half a brain just googles and gets all the garbage he might ever want to sift through. So unless you're trying to monetize this line of complaining, I don't see the point. It's not like anyone has the scoop.

Your posts make me feel sad. I don't know why you keep on the attack. It isn't helping you or anyone else I can see. I remember a brother once talking about someone, I forget who who was never a firebrand in service, commenting, cleaning the hall or anything else of this sort become as he described it "A pioneer apostate". I wondered why people who didn't believe JW's had anything to offer would expend so much energy attacking them. I mean if what JW's have is vomit, then why go back and spend time examining the vomit?

I just draw the line when they say "go up you bald head!" - That's one thing I'll not put up with. Neither me, nor my trained dancing bear.

I don't think you're a bad example. I find your posts encouraging and I'm sure a lot of other people here do. I think some of the "complainers" may just be working out their own demons, or I hope they are. Jehovah knows we cause most of our problems just fine all by ourselves.

If you're happy with your decisions, then I hope it goes well with you and one would wish the same for anyone who is choosing their path. If any JW's feel they are on the wrong path, they will choose as they will. One thing I've learned from decades of pioneering is that I've changed very few people's minds by arguing with them, but I have changed myself from wearing myself out in the attempt. I don't do this any more. If someone wants to speak with me and has something positive to share them I'm more than willing to listen, however chasing after someone else w/whom one disagrees with is usually a toxic behavior. You may imagine the person/persons holding these ideas to be snakes w/whom you've been bitten, however chasing the snakes simply drives the poison to the heart.