xero

It seems to me that paragraph is speaking of wicked people who appear to be happy. If you aren't wicked and you're happy, then this wouldn't apply to you. There are people who are ignorant of what the bible says as to the hope for the future or incorrectly assess the hope and find some happiness and that's undeniable, however until this system is replaced we can all agree that no one's happiness is complete. Everyone must choose their own path. If you've chosen a path you consider to be superior, then you can rejoice in your superior way of life. The thing everyone would do well to consider is that no one is immune from sin or even a heart which is potentially treacherous.

My big question is just how insane it will have to get before Jehovah intervenes.

I'd say that what's making the nations mad right now is the nihilist ideology of postmodernism. In postmodernism, there is no such thing as truth (which is a self-refuting statement as it's an absolute statement of truth), but only a game of power and word games. The street activity is anarchism, marxism and misery fueling the schisms as each splinter group is taught to hate the other groups is a decending spiral of self-loathing and its culture of victimhood. Math is racist, science is racist, biology isn't real, diverse outcomes simply have to be the result of oppression, not free will decisions and differing capabilities. It's all a global mental illness.

The thing is that this abuse issue has been addressed and likely better addressed than any other organization on planet earth. How about we talk about the whole of Islam or the rest of the planet and all their actively terrible things being done? (China's concentration camps). You won't hear these discuss any of this for the same reason that BLM doesn't care about black people - just advancing their Marxist agenda. So pot-shot takers are doing just that. They don't have any alternatives, they aren't building anything better. If they did and they were, then they'd be too busy doing that. Of course some are taking their shows on the road and monetizing their apostasy - at least they're making money. Some can't seem to even do that.

Sometimes you have to block people who have nothing positive to say Tom. On some day's I'm sure that applies to me too.

I love that....

The onus is on you to suggest this scripture is for some special class of self-appointed (or otherwise people), moreover this scripture is echoing the wisdom from the hebrew scriptures on the same matter. It strikes me that you're really into the idea that magical-crown-wearing people exist and somehow should be given preference for their declarations that they have magical-crowns. If anyone wants to get together and they feel they are superfine apostles, they can certainly do this, but I think this cult-within-a-cult of those initiated into the sanctum-sanctorum is a bit fat mistake. That's what I think this is about.

I don't think anyone will understand it until the fat lady sings.

So you agree w/me that people should NOT forsake the gathering of themselves together or isolate themselves? For me, I'm trying to get past all the long phrases, changes in font sizes and colors along with bolding to get to a simple answer to what appears to me to be a simple question. I was thinking in addition, so if there are people who profess to be anointed and these understand the importance of gathering themselves together and these don't. One would imagine this to be on them for failure to obey.

Thinking...what I often wonder is whether it's intentionally ambiguous to make us constantly try to solve the puzzle, and in trying we're forced into a spiritual pattern of reanalysis and humility as we realize how we know so much and yet so little and in knowing this we can see when people imagine themselves to be wiser than they actually are and for doing so not only realize this in ourselves but perhaps reconcile ourselves towards being a little less critical of the missteps of others as these have also tried and failed. In the end those counted as meek aren't the ones who've solved all the puzzles.

I find the first parts, easy, but then other parts leave me confused. I've been reading others interpretations and these haven't been helpful either. This is what's led me to wonder if some things which we imagine have already occurred are yet to occur also whether some things which are thought to be symbolic may actually be literal. In the other interpretation there are preterists, who say it's all completed. (doesn't make sense to me). I just don't know. The later parts are easy enough, Satan in the Abyss, 1000 yr reign, released, rebellion and final removal are also easy enough. (Though one would wonder why anyone would rebel again) I wish I could be more confident, but I'm not. Of course this could just be my problem. Maybe I've deflected and haven't figured that out yet. I try hard to not pester other people with my obsessions, but when people act as if they have it all figured out, I just think "I don't know. Seems stretchy from here."

You missed the point. I went w/everyone in FS. It's not like I conducted and went home. I've always liked FS. I felt that I'd rather do FS than go to meetings. I miss the bookstudies too. We had one for years in my house. I could entertain all sorts of off the wall discussions and it was great.

I've done all of these, however in all these there's flexibility. Anyone who's been an elder understands this. As regards time, I've always had issues w/time as a measurement, all the other elders I know understand this as well. It doesn't indicate spirituality. Also some have social anxiety (very hard for a JW). I rebelled for a time in my own way by not signing up to auxiliary pioneer, and then turn in (really did the time) in excess of the time required. This I did just to irritate some elders. I told them I was that guy who said he wouldn't go into the vineyard, but did anyway. Besides I was obviously there for evening meetings for FS (so the argument for being encouraging was moot - physical presence is certainly encouraging). I just felt that these announcements as to who was auxiliary pioneering this month was becoming a bit like trumpeting ones' gifts of mercy and having one's reward in full and I felt the giving in secret was better. What were they to do. Tell me I was a horrid individual for putting in auxiliary pioneer time, while not signing a paper? I felt that this was between me and Jehovah, so sure, afterwards I reported my time. As a measurement of FS, check. As a genuflecting to men. Not so much.

Sometimes what people call twisting words, is simply a clarification. So you agree that it's absolutely wrong for people to go to a church/kingdom hall/synagogue/mosque to worship. Instead they should go it alone? What about the scripture which says "He that is isolating himself seeks his own selfish longing..."? What about not forsaking the gathering together as some have the custom? It would seem that you're encouraging both. If you don't want that, you should at least start a meetup group to consider your spiritual interests with others on a regular basis.

You have to account for yourself. I have to account for myself. If you know how to do what is right and don't do it, that's a sin for you. The same for me. If you fail to listen to your conscience that's a sin for you as it is for me. People have to defend their beliefs (if these have beliefs) which are attached nominally to an organization. I have beliefs which are attached nominally to an organization, and yet those beliefs are not owned by the organization. As the old saw goes, "I make the truth my own". Those who argue for the Catholic Church and it's sliding scale of beliefs as being in perpetuity the unadulterated voice of Christ or any other organization including the WTBS have to deal with that. I don't. Yes there are company men. I am not. There are interpretations of prophesy which seem forced in my view. I see that there was diversity of opinion on the meanings of prophesy among the faithful in the 1st century and I believe there is the same latitude today among JW's. Yes, there are some for whom any wondering is considered disloyal. I don't. I'm focused on what I can know and what I do know. I do know that there is greater textual and historical testimony for the gospel accounts from a strictly historical perspective which, in combination with my understanding of the mathematical obstacles inherent in every evolutionary non-theistic scenario lead me to believe both that there is a Creator, that Jehovah is God, and that Jesus is is Son and that he both lived, died and was resurrected. I also believe that he will return and that this foretold kingdom will address all these issues. Exactly how and when I don't know. I'm not sure any do, however the more I read on this matter, the more I'm convinced that no one knows exactly how this will play out. On the other hand I'm reminded of Jaron Lanier and his feelings about the internet. ("You Are Not A Gadget") This thing has made it so that no one can forget the past. No one does anything creative w/o first looking to see if it's been done before, or done better. He argues that this inability to forget has killed creativity in the music business. There was a time when you could identify an era by the music which was played, as each group got creative. Creativity is shot now. No truly new music. It's remixes and retro and dub-step (sounds like a fax machine getting molested). This thing, this recreation of the tower of babel has created a kind of totalitarian thought control, so any subtlety which might come from holy spirit isn't going to regenerate a world wide organization of Christians anywhere on this planet. Not without Jesus-like miracles, like raising people from the dead and splitting the waters of the red sea or like Moses and the plagues on Egypt. If we see anything happening is a degradation of spirituality everywhere. The Good News of The Kingdom has been preached. General revelation is available to all, even the illiterate Sentinelese living like proto-hominids on Sentinel Island have the general revelation. No. The end will come when the world is just like it is right now. Or possibly worse. I wonder that it isn't over now. So do many JW's.

Just wait 'till you hit Chapter 11 if you're confused.

So the simple answer is no. You have no alternative anywhere. So the positive statement you are making is that no one anywhere should associate with a group who claim to try to be Christians. The reason you give is that they are all imperfect. Or did I miss anything? This doesn't seem like a good argument. It's not realistic and not scriptural.

I haven't let anything go by. I don't know of anyone who has. I think I see in all this a sort of privilege which comes from being in a good place. People who live in 1st world countries complain about 1st world problems. No one has said the org is perfect, but you haven't suggested an alternate location/theology whereby Christians can come together and build up their faith on a regular basis.

I understand where you're coming from, but I have to disagree as to differences in theology as being irrelevant. Take the Declaration of Independence, where it says "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness." At the time this was written slavery existed in the colonies and wasn't wiped out at that time. It did, however establish a vector w/in the text as to the ideal. Theologies likewise carry within them a vector w/in, a text as to the ideal. I hold these things to not be irrelevant even if we are unable to fully realize them at present. There is value in intolerance, even beauty. The issue is one of hating sin, while not at the same time hating the sinner. For example homosexuality is practically embraced by so many so-called Christians today, because not embracing this behavior is seen as loathsome hatred of the being of another, a denial of these people and their existence. It isn't. People can and do change. Having unwholesome predilections can be curbed. But we need to make it clear that it isn't just these sins which are at issue, but we often can give this impression. The Bible is full of descriptions of sin and if we're honest we're all guilty. Legalism can be and is an issue w/many as these seek to avoid all condemnation in their own eyes. But we have to be honest, we're not better than anyone, but to the extent that we submit to God's direction (don't equate this w/fidelity to organizations) we can find ourselves moving in the right direction. Provided our theology is providing the right (or best) roadmap.

"Also, do not take to heart every word that people say; otherwise, you may hear your servant calling down evil on you; for you well know in your heart that many times you yourself have called down evil on others." - Ecc.7:21-22 (This might be a good one too) Though I confess to speaking thoughtlessly as with the stabs of a sword on occasion. Shame on me for that. (the question of course that occurred to me now, was whether the servant in the aforementioned was discreet or not.) No matter. Because it does say before this "..every word that people say". Maybe he didn't say it. Maybe he said it and didn't mean it that way. Maybe he said it, meant it in that way and I needed to hear it.

"Do not be quick to take offense, for the taking of offense lodges in the bosom of fools." - Ecc. 7:9 Of course today, it's a sport. Years ago someone in Portland put up a blog entitled "Stuff White People Like". This is No. 101 https://stuffwhitepeoplelike.com/2008/05/28/101-being-offended/

This is a lot of energy. It doesn't not seem like what it appears to be - a lot of pain being expressed. Others have said and will likely say again that any trust in humans is misplaced trust, but none of it is convincing that it's the same sort of thing for which institutions have been convicted. I asked whether there was any group untouched by this sort of thing, and the absence of a response means you understand that there isn't. Others have pointed out how imagining that the organization is untouched by human imperfection is imagining an impossibility, and that idolizing it is a mistake. I've seen it done for years, but usually from those who wish to lord their relative positions over others. As a christian, you have no authority other than that of a fellow brother or sister and no further responsibility either. You have to adhere to your conscience and if you don't or haven't that's on you. If an elder or even a body of elders has done something of this sort, that's on them. I have and others who likewise consider themselves to be faithful test every expression ostensibly inspired or otherwise to see if it washes with scripture - if it does, fine, if it doesn't then you can't go along with it. Lumping all JW's together as if they had a collective responsibility over actions others have taken or haven't taken flies in the face of individual responsibility. It does accord, however with the zeitgest of marxist-post-modernism whereby there is no truth, only power and the idea of collective guilt and collective responsibility. Marx failed to enthuse the workers to revolt, but the post-modernist-marxists at every turn seek to organize society into a myriad competing, yet miserable factions all of which are seeking the status of the penultimate victim. I see a Satanic hand in all this as the nullification of the individual and individual responsibility and the denial of free will and truth. Some might argue that being in an organization is equivalent to worshiping the organization. I don't. Paul made use of his status as a Roman citizen without being guilty of the abuses of the Roman state. Christians today could be in congregations which have strayed - that's on them to address. Are these addressing group sins, or those of individuals? If you have an issue w/an individual, you have recourse. Has a congregation gone wholly awry? If that's true, I haven't seen it yet, but if that time comes, it would be on me to deal with it. As an individual. And by scriptural means. Oh and at the risk of being taken seriously.