xero

Well I don't get into name calling, but I do think there are hierarchies of interests and hierarchies of concerns. But, to play the side which is presented we could suggest the same of many in the Bible. Take Jonah. Did Jonah preach a lie? 3 Then the word of Jehovah came to Joʹnah a second time, saying:a 2 “Get up, go to Ninʹe·vehb the great city, and proclaim to her the message that I tell you.” 3 So Joʹnah got up and went to Ninʹe·vehc in obedience to the word of Jehovah.d Now Ninʹe·veh was a very large city*—a walking distance of three days. 4 Then Joʹnah entered the city, and walking a day’s journey, he was proclaiming: “In just 40 days more, Ninʹe·veh will be overthrown.” - Jonah 3:1-4 Now granted he got a direct message as the scripture says to tell Nineveh what would, in the strictest sense would be - a lie. (But...they repent (now there was no conditional "Nineveh will overthrown in 40 days UNLESS you repent)) He even as much as said so later that he knew it was a 'lie'. 4 But this was highly displeasing to Joʹnah, and he became hot with anger. 2 So he prayed to Jehovah: “Ah, now, Jehovah, was this not my concern when I was in my own land? That is why I tried to flee to Tarʹshisha in the first place; for I knew that you are a compassionate* and merciful God, slow to anger and abundant in loyal love,b one who feels grieved over calamity. So I think that you have a point in the strictest sense, but even in a courtroom the intent, the mens rea is taken into account. Did the ones saying such things in 1907 not believe them to be true? If they did was it a lie? Is simply teaching something which one believes to be true (but isn't) equivalent in all ways to "teaching lies"? I don't see it that way.

This system of things is rapidly approaching (if it hasn't already passed) the Vantasner Danger Meridian

As regards reading other material, I have to admit that when I read apologetic works which otherwise seem reasonable and then conclude that all this indicates that Jehovah-Jesus-Holy Spirit are part of a trinity and blah, blah, blah ... It's like nails on a chalkboard. If there's one doctrine that I detest even more than evolution, it's the trinity doctrine. Reading a book like this is like walking down the road with what appears to be a normal human, sound in mind, and then they strip naked and start barking at cars and chasing cats. If you're reading something where you KNOW the goal of the writer - namely simply to trash you and your faith as a whole w/o admitting that there are positive elements and results from your beliefs, well it's like picking up a book, opening it up and seeing what looks like a countdown timer and trip wires, you might pitch it fast. The way I've dealt w/this issue is to always have a pen (never a pencil) and write down my remarks to the author as I read it. We're having a conversation, as it were and I'll have a few things to say along the way.

4Jah...everyone has a different experience. Some positive and some negative. Elders have lots of opinions and so to GB members. I don't have to deal w/everyone's experience - they do. I also don't consider ex-JW's (if that's what they personally label themselves as) 'wicked'. I'm not in any position to judge. I also don't go hunting anyone down to see what they're up to. Sure you make these shepherding calls, but quite frankly, if someone's an adult and they don't want to talk, then I don't push it. Where I am, you'd have just been let be. Everyone has a conscience of their own and the last thing anyone should want to do is to become an obstacle to someone else's faith - either by being presumptuous and attempting to override their conscience, or by creating an "Us vs Them" mentality.

I'm not aware of anything like this in any congregation I've been part of. If I even suspected something like this I know our local boe has a different attitude. One bro said only half joking. "I'd invite someone like that to go on a hunting trip w/me. 'accidents' CAN happen while you're out hunting."

Oh, I've noticed it. I have to take training every year in identifying potential human trafficking. (Just one of the many I have to get refreshers on every year)

Unfortunately it seems that it's human nature to not "speak truth to one another". My wife is the opposite. She always says what she thinks. I remember one time this peppy elder asked her "Don't you want to go to Bethel?" and she said "No. I'd be cleaning toilets, while X would get to do something interesting." She was right, of course, but instead of telling the truth she was supposed to make up some BS lie about her real reasons...make it sound like more of an acceptable "theocratic" excuse. Same thing when it came to being a circuit overseer. One CO thought I was definitely CO material - I was already a regular pioneer of 26 years and an elder and this while working full time w/my wife who was a pioneer as well. But my wife put the hammer down on that idea. I've been thinking about group-think for a while, and I'm convinced that you can't have a group of any kind or size w/o squeezing...This is because there's always a minority which is active which wants prominence and is less tolerant of differences in opinions and consciences. Take this one family. They always creeped me out. Later it turned out my instincts were correct, they had been into some weird stuff on the side, but at meetings they were always pushing a hard-line view. They assumed I'd be into it too, but I wasn't. Like there are people who are card-carrying JW's who are well intentioned, but quite frankly are busybodies. How many times have I heard "Bro X. I'm concerned about...." followed up by some busybody nosiness about how shiny or not some other bro or sister appears to be in their own lives and choices. One of the other elders agreed. "I'm sick of people being 'concerned'!' (one of my favorite e's)

Interestingly Tom pointed out a stat that's worth noting. It's usually a minority of people who make things change. Take soda. It's all kosher, not because the soda companies care about being kosher, per se, but they wanted a market. https://www.sciencehistory.org/distillations/the-real-thing-how-coke-became-kosher Then there's the Abilene Paradox Agreement leading to discontent because no one is telling each other the truth about how they really think and feel about something, because they think the others are into it when they aren't, but they go along for the same reason. Everyone's miserable as a result. If people would just say what they really thought, it would be different in a lot of cases. Then the example of https://www.psychologistworld.com/influence/minority-influence is also an example. People go along to shut people up w/their complaining because they don't care, or whatever's proposed doesn't affect them, or maybe they just don't think the effects will reach as far as them. The overton window get's shifted in the same way. Every group has an "overton window".

I don't see why anyone's claims of anointing are meaningful. The authority ought to be scripture, and if someone in podunk saskatoon has a better biblical argument - that's what you should go with. I don't buy the papal idea of "I'm anointed, therefore I'm right." Sorry Scooter. Like Jesus said "why do you call me 'Good Teacher?'". Now if you start raising people from the dead and going through the children's hospitals curing people and say "this is the sign that this thing I'm saying found nowhere in scripture is from God", then maaaybe I'll take a look.

That's true, which is why it's good to make sure that when you say "Till death do us part", that they know you really mean it.

Tom, you never know how true that can be. There was this woman at work "Carmen" who apparently got wind that I was a JW and all and decided to start hitting on me. In the break room on a Friday she asked me to go to happy hour with her and her gf's. I said, looking at her seriously "Carmen. Happy hour begins at home." Then she said "But what if your wife has other plans?" I said (in front of a bunch of the guys) "Carmen, my wife has nothing better to do with her free time than to spend it all with me." All these guys busted out laughing. This stuff happens all the time I'm sure w/brothers because what you can't have is what you want sometimes.

SS - I get it. I don't blame anyone for blaming either...On the other hand... Suppose someone had a marriage that went south and the guy was ranting to you about his ex-wife at a bar. You'd probably think "OK, I guess this guy had it bad....Then say a year goes by and you run into him again..."Say how's it goin!" and he launches into a rant about his ex-wife again. Maybe you let it go...maybe he's still dealing with something....Then two years later...same guy, same bar and guess what? Still ranting about his ex-wife.... You begin to think he's making a career of hating on his ex-wife. Why doesn't he get a new one? Move on, do something? To me it seems like there are a bumper crop of guys like this, ex-JW's who are making a career out of hating on the org, like that bar guy's hating on his ex-wife. Making a pioneer apostate thing out of it. Maybe even monetizing it all on youtube. Getting famous (at least in a minor cult celebrity way). I'm sure most don't. If they felt that they were in a cult and got out, you'd think they wouldn't mention they'd been a JW. Trying to explain your drama to a non-JW that you "used to be in a cult" would be like saying "I used to be institutionalized, but trust me, I'm OK now." So I think that the loud ones have issues that probably started long before and I'll say this maybe they have relatives in and that's the issue - being shunned - that hurts and I do have some problems w/the way this is handled, which is why I don't stick my nose into other people's families - it's their family, their conscience, their responsibility and don't make it my business, is all I wish people would do.

It's none of my business, but I'd encourage people to follow their bible trained consciences. Personally? I think not. How it's all going to go down, I don't know. Will it be a wipeout and restore operation? Does the scripture which says "those slain by Jehovah will be from one end of the earth to another" be that which Jehovah ALLOWED or CAUSED to be slain by some cosmic event which has been on it's way to this planet for thousands of years? I think the overweening concern with judging others alive or dead or living at that time is out of place. What it really means is that the individual imagines either what some organization told him is going to happen is true and moral when it's neither true nor moral (and not at all what Jehovah is up to) , or they simply don't trust God to be a moral God. If the latter is true, then we're all screwed. I don't think that's the case, however and I avoid the apparent joy and relish some have at contemplating the destruction of anyone. Certainly God has said he takes no delight in the death of the wicked. So we ought not either. In either case, you are right that some in the organization have said these things, but when you read the fine print there's always an asterisk * "*" - meaning we don't really know.

Of course ...they lost me at "Huffington Post". Also, to me the chronic fascination humans have with body parts is odd. I don't obsess over a drumstick or a bowl of oatmeal. Why would I obsess about body parts? It strikes me that people like this are lacking in imagination. I mean mathematically speaking, there are a finite number of configurations and things which may be done with or to a human body. It's all really dull.

I think a lot of people who have left and a lot who have stayed have a lot in common. They haven't made the truth their own. Instead they either abdicate their free will to an organization or they blame an organization for their having left. In either case if the shoe fits is that "each one must carry his own load". Now you can't look at someone and know what box they fit into, but obsessive focus on the organization and the GB is, of course a clue. Supposedly we're supposed to be intently looking at and studying the perfecter of our faith - Jesus. Elders aren't magical wise men, neither are members of any governing body. You can of course cherry pick and create whatever movie you want to play in your own head as the manner of your life and whether you're happy with it or not - still it's your own bed - you made it, you continue to make it and you must lie down in it. Happy people will be happy, and unhappy people will be unhappy. As soon as people "stop kicking against the goads" and know that they are solely responsible for their own choices and the consequences which flow from these, they can begin really living. (as much as living can be living in this particular rendition)

I had a study years ago with this jewish astrophysicist. It was interesting, but one interesting observation he made (he did become a brother) was that evil is predictable because evil shuns free will. The more evil, the more predictable. Also from other writings I've read (C. S. Lewis) evil is also parasitic. It doesn't create, but owes its existence to parasitism. An evil person (who am I to judge), but and evil act is the business of getting at "the good" the wrong way. Atheists want what faith provides, but can't have it because it requires a specific path - one they've shunned. "I am the way, the truth, the life - no one comes to the father except through me" Jesus said, and all the truly good things require obedience to and recognition of Jehovah and his rules, laws, purposes. He's teaching us to benefit who? Us all.

You know, that the core beliefs of JW's don't differ significantly from the bulk of other nontrinitarian religions except in ways which, quite frankly are conscience matters. This is a big issue in my world. Too many brothers want to override or supplant the consciences of others. If there is a defect, that would be it - not the nationality. As regards the locus of the org, the rationale for it being here is in good part because the constitution protects freedom of worship (although that is getting eroded). Historically speaking, the 1800's and the "Great Awakening" happened in the United States because we had the kind of government and culture which allowed for this freedom. It would have never gotten off the ground in Europe or anywhere else for that matter. So it certainly appears to me that Jehovah thought this the best country for it to take place in. None of us would whine and say "But why did Jehovah pick the Jews!". So any complaints about "Why America!" sound very similar as that complaint to me.

Well I'll just say, that if it wasn't for JW's I wouldn't have a college degree, a high paying career or even be alive. There are other stories. I know a lot of people who blame(perhaps she isn't 'blaming', but the context gives that impression) the org for the way their lives turned out. Not everyone had that experience, but then again, I wasn't raised at a JW. None of my family were JW's or even were at all religious. Sometimes they blame the BORG (their words), when it's their own family that was screwed up. Sometimes it was simply that they used their own free will in whatever manner they chose. This woman is no victim. It's not like "fity cent" says "get rich or die tryin", this world gives you many choices. Take a different group, Mormons. Now a sci-fi writer, I read William Shunn's "Terror on Flight 789" before he put it in book form as "The Accidental Terrorist". I rather suspect the constraints of his religion and it's culture were the fuel which made for the writing career he has today. Not that this was the goal of the LDS church, but it shows that we have w/in us certain "gifts" which when watered one way or another by others AND by ourselves we become who we become. https://www.shunn.net/terror/

Right. I'm not a socialist leftist. Unfortunately a lot of people in this world don't believe Paul when he said "If a man doesn't work, neither let him eat."

A couple of videos (I just think they're cool), but they also show design complexity. Clearly designed, and yet far less complicated than the operations of a "simple" cell. Marble Machine More Marble Machine