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Ann O'Maly

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Everything posted by Ann O'Maly

  1. Ann O'Maly
    Wasn't 'crazy people' intended to be the forum's preferred demographic?
  2. Ann O'Maly
    Publicly revealing members' IP locations is uncool - even if the members are being a pain in the rump. Tsk, tsk.
  3. Ann O'Maly
    490 years hasn't been verified. 490 years is an interpretation based one how one understands the heptads. Seder Olam Rabbah sees them as 'weeks of years' running from the 1st Temple's destruction in 423/2 BCE to the 2nd Temple's destruction in 69/68 CE. As we and Jewish scholars have long known, those dates are incorrect for these two events. It would be misleading for, say, a Christian group to claim that Seder Olam Rabbah's understanding of the 490 years verifies their own if the Christian group believed those 490 years pointed to the appearance of Jesus Christ the Messiah. Or, to give another example, claiming certain Bible scholars from centuries past put forward 606 BCE as the beginning of the '70 years' therefore this confirms Barbour and Russell were correct to use the start date of 606 BCE in their own chronological calculations.
  4. Ann O'Maly
    Sometimes we mistakenly think a source is incorrect due to our own preconceived ideas or lack of knowledge. Sometimes quoting sources we believe are incorrect is necessary for critical analysis, discussion, or to acknowledge an alternate POV exists. Again, the methods and primary sources from which we deduce 539 BCE as being the correct year for Babylon's fall, are the same methods and primary sources from which we deduce 587 BCE as being the correct year for Jerusalem's destruction. I understand your caution and I get that it feels 'wrong' to you. Once you become more familiar with the lines of biblical, chronological and archaeological evidence, you should see how all those lines converge into one inescapable conclusion. This is why I tried to get you to follow a linear track of reasoning instead. I wish you had. It would have been interesting to explore. Well, I can see that the reasoning and information I presented have gone whoosh over your head and you're restating what prompted my questions about whether you really understood how BCE dates are arrived at for Babylonian regnal years and events. Never mind. Maybe one day it'll click. Thank you for responding anyway. Edit to add: If "there are no dates given so that one can properly synchronize to BCE dates," on what basis do you trust 539 BCE, since it is a date that derives from the Babylonian Nabonidus Chronicle and other Babylonian sources?
  5. Ann O'Maly
    http://www.calldrmatt.com/AskDrMatt_17_Points_of_the_True_Church_of_Christ.htm https://www.tomorrowsworld.org/booklets/where-is-gods-true-church-today/content http://www.itiswritten.com/search-for-certainty-lesson-21-gods-church-identified
  6. Ann O'Maly
    OK. This line of discussion has been left unfinished ... ... so it's probably time to wrap it up. @Arauna had expressed her belief that the date 539 BCE for the fall of Babylon was "truly verified." However, she indicated mistrust of Babylonian sources because "their dates are all over the place - not reliable," the reigns are "impossible to correlate," and that the "Persian and Greek sources gets (sic) us to the truth." She cited the battle of Opis as an example of how the date 539 BCE is verified, apparently unaware that the battle was primarily recorded in a Babylonian source. So I was curious to know if she knew how the relative chronologies of the ancient near eastern world were fixed to BCE dating. The only answer she could provide were reiterations of what scholarship had already concluded (that Babylon fell in 539 BCE), that Cyrus reigned 9 years and she cited the Olympiad counting system used in some Greek sources. But how do we nail down this data onto a BCE calendar time-line? I asked. Maybe Arauna doesn't know, or doesn't care, or knows and won't say. So this is the point I've been leading to: We nail down 'floating chronologies' like Babylonian kings' regnal years and Olympiads to the BCE/CE calendar by means of numerous dated Babylonian astronomical observations. The sky is the 'universal clock' I was hinting at. Babylonians were excellent sky-watchers and wanted to understand the motions of celestial objects, so they observed and measured distances and times, and they recorded what they saw. It was vital that they noted down the date for the observations otherwise their records would be useless for researching and calculating periodicities and so on. The year date would be their king's regnal year. Therefore, these dated astronomical tablets are snapshots of time, with celestial configurations often unique to that time period. So, when we combine the data from known kings regnal years with dated astronomical records from the same era, we can derive the BCE years the kings reigned. This is the method by which it was deduced that 539 BCE was Nabonidus' 17th year, when the battle of Opis happened, and when Babylon fell to the Persians. The same method and same Babylonian astronomical sources yield, 605 BCE as Nebuchadnezzar II's accession 597 BCE as the siege of Jerusalem and Jehoiachin's surrender and exile 587 BCE as Nebuchadnezzar's 18th year and Jerusalem's destruction We cannot accept 539 BCE as being verified for certain events, while rejecting the dates for other events that have been verified by using the exact same methods and sources that were used to confirm 539 BCE. This would be an intellectually dishonest approach. Counter to what Arauna stated about the unreliability of Babylonian sources to get at the truth about dating Babylon's fall to 539 BCE, we cannot get to the truth about 539 BCE (or the year of Jerusalem's destruction) without Babylonian sources. Â
  7. Ann O'Maly
    http://britishmuseum.org/research/collection_online/search.aspx?searchText=21946
  8. Ann O'Maly
    605 BCE is correct, actually. 605 BCE is historically accurate for the battle of Carchemish. Â The British Museum features special exhibitions for limited periods before other special exhibitions replace them. BM 21946 is still prominently and publicly displayed with other tablets, cylinders and stelae of that period in Room 55. You can also go to the 'Collections' part of the website, type in the BM number and see a nice picture and description of it with the correct dates.
  9. Ann O'Maly
    As I said before, Rohl and James both agree with the established neo-Babylonian time-line, which is the one relevant to the 1914 calculation: That means they agree with 605 BCE for the accession of Nebuchadnezzar II and 587 BCE for the destruction of Jerusalem.
  10. Ann O'Maly
    How was it calculated that the beginning of the Olympiads correspond to 776 BCE? Yes, the regnal years are part of the calculation. But their timelines are hanging mid-air, so-to-speak. So how does one nail down a particular regnal year to a particular BCE year? How is it confirmed Nabonidus' 17th regnal year corresponds to the year 539 BCE? If only there was some kind of universal clock to be able to synchronize these different floating chronologies. Do you have any ideas on where such a 'clock' could be found and how these two loose ends can be fixed together?
  11. Ann O'Maly
    There were many persons called 'Belibni.' But, regarding the 'Belibni' who was made Sennacherib's puppet king over Babylon in 703 BCE, where do you get that he was Merodach-Baladan's grandson, and where do get that he was Nebuchadnezzar I's son? Are you suggesting now that Nebuchadnezzar I was Merodach-Baladan's son?Â
  12. Ann O'Maly
    It should be noted that James's revisions are for years before 950 BCE (the time of Solomon), and Rohl's revisions concern years prior to 664 BCE (Assurbanipal's sacking of Thebes). Both these researchers agree with the established neo-Babylonian chronology of the 7th and 6th centuries BCE - the very chronology that, along with the scriptural evidence, is problematic for 'all aspects of the 1914 doctrine.' The simple answer to the simple question is that Belibni is not recorded as being the son of King Nebuchadnezzar I, so there is no discrepancy. So I'll ask again, what is the source for the information indicating otherwise?
  13. Ann O'Maly
    Feel free to opt out of this 'hijacked and redundant' thread at any time, @AllenSmith
  14. Ann O'Maly
    Not entirely. The battle occurred in the same year as Cyrus conquering Babylon. @Arauna commented that the year 539 BCE is "the only secular date which is truly verified," and that "you" (whomever she was directing this to) cannot accept that it's "the only secular date which is truly verified" because "you use mainly Babylonian sources to try to verify the date and their dates are all over the place - not reliable" and that Persian and Greek sources are more truthful [Arauna's full quote in context]. It was at this point she mentions the battle of Opis - apparently unaware that the record of this battle is found on a Babylonian source. Indeed. However, seeing as Arauna took it on trust that the correct year for both the battle of Opis and Babylon's fall was 539 BCE, even though none of the ancient sources give modern-day BCE dates but have their own methods of keeping track of time (e.g. regnal years and Olympiads), I was wondering if she knew how the BCE dates were arrived at; how we know it was 539 BCE as opposed to, say, 541 BCE or 535 BCE or any other year. I'm still interested in what Arauna has to say about this. Regarding your piece about Cyrus and his wife dying and his decree and the Jews' preparation to leave, yadda, yadda - we discussed all that already in another thread which can be summarized in this post. The Cyrus Cylinder isn't really one of the chronicles - it's classed as a royal inscription. But that nitpicky detail aside, you are quite right! We have to take on board all the evidence and not just the parts we like. Â
  15. Ann O'Maly
    Well, you've just repeated others' conclusions on what the BCE years were. How did these scholars reach those conclusions? What were their sources? The Insight book includes a comment that 539 BCE for Babylon's fall can be derived from Ptolemy's canon. But Ptolemy's canon only has a list of kings' regnal years - not BCE dates. The same is true for the Olympiads - they are not BCE dates. How can we tie BCE dates to the regnal years and Olympiads? Do you have any proposals? IOW, there is a missing link in the chain of evidence: We have Cyrus' rule over Babylon totaling 9 years; We have Cyrus' 1st year corresponding to Olympiad 55, Year 1, and his last year corresponding to Olympiad 62, Year 2; We have the battle of Opis and Babylon's fall in Nabonidus' 17th regnal year. So how do we convert this data into a BCE calendar time-line?
  16. Ann O'Maly
    OK, Arauna, walk me through this. How do you verify that it was indeed 539 BCE when Babylon fell to Persian armies? Do you agree with the Babylonian source that the battle of Opis occurred in Nabonidus' 17th year (although the year is actually broken off)? Assuming that the missing year is indeed '17' (and there is good reason to believe so from the tablet's format), how do we go about tying Nabonidus' 17th year to a modern calendar year? Do you have any suggestions on how we can do that? If you do not believe the Babylonian source about the Opis battle and the fall of Babylon, what alternatives do you propose for establishing 539 BCE as the correct year?
  17. Ann O'Maly
    @J.R. Ewing Who? 'Perceived' by whom? When? Reference please. The author misidentified the king in the apocryphal story. ? Too little information to go on. Is there a tablet number? Do you have a specific publication in mind where this tablet is discussed. Give us something more concrete about your alleged discrepancies and maybe we can help you.
  18. Ann O'Maly
    Better the pilot be redirected and take action than to crash into a mountain.
  19. Ann O'Maly
    His 'discovery' was, in fact, what had long been already known and established in ANE and biblical scholarship. His downfall was believing that the Society was interested in the truth of the matter. Unfortunately, the responses from HQ were inadequate, rehashing what had already been questioned or rebutted, and they repeated platitudes and promises to address the evidence - which they didn't do. Instead, they urged him to keep quiet and instigated a nasty smear campaign against him. This is what alienated COJ from the org and caused him so much frustration and hurt. 'In the end the truth will eventually always come out'? The truth had already come out - several times before COJ's treatise. The truth had been flagged up in Russell's day, in Rutherford's day, and many times since, by those inside the org and by never-been-JWs. Even now, had COJ 'waited on Jehovah' to change matters, he would still be waiting - 40 years later. The ones who first alerted Russell to the errors are long dead now. Could it be that Jehovah has been nudging and jabbing the leaders of His people to make corrections all along, but they've been ignoring Him?
  20. Ann O'Maly
    You gave us the sign of the son of man, did you? Careful. Remember Moses' presumptuous act at Meribah and how that turned out!
  21. Ann O'Maly
    Watch out, Jesus. Brother Rando has elbowed you off your judgment seat and consigned JW Insider to the fire.
  22. Ann O'Maly
    In Daniel 4, Daniel said he did know the interpretation of the dream and gave it to the king. Do you not believe him? 'Times' (iddan) do not necessarily mean years. Cp. Dan. 2:8; 3:5, 15; 7:12. But why could these 'times' not be merely contemporaneous with the historical period? Is there a Scriptural basis for concluding otherwise? Jesus indicated nothing about the '7 times' and made no link with Dan. 4. 'It must be the same.' A mere assertion. Where in Scripture has this conclusion sprung from? Besides, Jesus was speaking in the future tense - "will be trampled" - i.e. at the time he spoke, what he had in mind hadn't happened yet. Whoa. We have several knight-jump eisegetical leaps, there. Where is the Scriptural link between the '7 times' of Daniel 4, which Daniel specifically applied to the period of Nebuchadnezzar's madness, and Revelation's '3.5 times' relating to an entirely different apocalyptic vision given about 5 centuries later? And then a random 'day-for-a-year' formula lobbed into the interpretive cauldron - where in Daniel does it say we have to use this for the tree dream? So to recap: Daniel knew the interpretation of the tree dream - it wasn't sealed information 'Times' may not mean 'years' anyway, given the word's other usage within the book of Daniel There is no Scriptural prophetic connection between Luke 21:24 and Dan. 4 There is no Scriptural basis for applying some 'day-for-a-year' formula to Dan. 4 And to add to that, the Org has dispensed with typologies that are not explicit in Scripture! "Where the Scriptures teach that an individual, an event, or an object is typical of something else, we accept it as such. Otherwise, we ought to be reluctant to assign an antitypical application to a certain person or account if there is no specific Scriptural basis for doing so." - https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/2015204 Therefore, as no specific Scriptural basis can be found for interpreting the 'immense tree' in Nebuchadnezzar's dream as the antitype for God's rulership, then we should rightly reject such an application.
  23. Ann O'Maly
    About the interpretation of Dan. 4? Daniel, of course.
  24. Ann O'Maly
    Good question. Who is right about the application and fulfillment of Dan. 4? God (through Daniel) or JW.org?
  25. Ann O'Maly
    Off topic. Don't change the subject.
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