Ann O'Maly

Thank you. Filling in the ellipses: "But it's a mistake to think that the failure of Penn State authorities to report the abuse is a rarity, child abuse educators, prosecutors and investigators said. Studies over the past two decades nationally have consistently shown that nearly two-thirds of professionals who are required to report all cases of suspected abuse fail to do so because they are uncertain of whether abuse occurred, are fearful of making false accusations, or are unsure of their obligation. " The Spring Grove and Freeland Maryland elders were aware of a romantic and sexual relationship between the minor victim and the middle-aged abuser. A JC was formed and they reproved them both. There was no uncertainty that prevented the elders from reporting to the authorities. As for the Org's Legal Department, which is supposed to be consulted when instances of abuse come to light, its job is to be sure of the congregation's legal obligations.

Actually, the ARC found that wasn't so - not one alleged abuser was reported to the authorities, even though some states required it. E.g. I remember the consternation on Br. Spinks' face (Service Department) when it was put to him that they hadn't complied with NSW law about reporting if one has knowledge or a belief that a crime had been committed. The Fessler case brought it to light that the Org did not comply with PA law by reporting the abuse. Not only that, but even when Watchtower has been court-ordered to produce documentation, it has done everything it can to wiggle out of or obstruct the production of documents, like with the Campos cases. So it's fair to say that the general practice in the Org has been NOT to report suspected abuse to the secular authorities. Where did you get the 'two-thirds' statistic from, by the way? This is exactly why trained professionals should handle all allegations, rather than untrained elders. Besides, when laypersons bumble in, trying to ascertain the truth of an allegation, they can (unintentionally) corrupt any evidence-gathering which, in turn, compromises the case, making it harder to successfully resolve.

This was supposed to be a light-hearted, humorous 'Caption this pic' thread. INTREPID TRAVELLER (and others): The child abuse issue is too weighty to have it piggy-backing on a fun thread. I know you have posted elsewhere on the forum about it with those links. Wouldn't it be best to discuss this on a separate thread? Meanwhile .... "Bu... *sniff, sob* ... b..ut I want to be a spaceman when I grow up!"

THAT is a very good question. I cannot find publicly available information on the internet. Maybe it happened and didn't hit the news, or doesn't show up on main searches, or it was a closed prosecution or maybe it is something in the works, or for some reason the authorities aren't actioning it. I don't know. But I'd like to know.

The abuser was a JW sister in her late 40s. She was convicted of indecent assault in May 2012 and is now on the sexual offenders register. The victim was 13 or 14 when the abuse started (c. 2003). The parents became aware of the abuse when their daughter was 15 and reported it to the elders. The elders held a judicial committee for both abuser and victim and reproved them both (poor Stephanie!) for intimate kissing and hugging. This shows that the elders viewed their actions as a sin. However, the elders should have recognized that abuse was going on: BOE letter, March 14, 1997 What is child molestation? "Webster's Ninth New Collegiate Dictionary defines "pedophilia" as "sexual perversion in which children are the preferred sexual object." (See "Questions From Readers" in The Watchtower of February I, 1997, page 29.) Deuteronomy 23:17, 18 condemns such practices as "detestable." (See the footnotes to verses 17 and 18 in the Reference Bible. Also, it would be helpful to see the footnote on page 10 of the October 8, 1993, issue of Awake!) In harmony with these references, we are herein discussing sexual perversion in which children are the object of sexual abuse, including fondling by an adult. We are not discussing a situation wherein a consenting minor, who is approaching adulthood, has sexual relations with an adult who is a few years older than the minor. Rather, we are referring, for example, to situations in which it is established by a congregation judicial committee that an adult brother or sister has been guilty of sexually abusing a young child or has been sexually involved with a nonconsenting minor who is approaching adulthood. The suit against Watchtower et al. arises because they should have reported to the authorities under PA law (the Legal Dep't should have advised them to do this). Because they didn't, the abuse continued and escalated into more intrusive sexual acts. Not only that, but it is alleged that the local elders discouraged the victim and her family from contacting the police (so they ignored even the Org's own directive). BOE letter, August 1, 1995 Still, whether or not the accusation is reported to the authorities, when it is established that a member of the congregation is guilty of child abuse, appropriate steps should be taken in keeping with initial direction from the Society's Legal Department. BOE letter, May 24, 2002 We have long instructed elders to report allegations of child abuse to the authorities where required by law to do so, even where there is only one witness. (Romans 13:I) In any case, the eIders know that if the victim wishes to make a report, it is his or her absolute right to do so.- Galatians 6:5. An unholy muck up which resulted in the victim's lasting harm. The Org had no legal (or moral) legs to stand on, which became embarrassingly apparent over the course of the trial. It's no wonder they cut their losses and settled.

"No. I am your Father!" "No! That's not true! That's impossible!"

Indeed. But the focus of this thread is on how historical and linguistic scholarship can be misused or ignored to influence readers to a preordained conclusion (namely, that Jesus didn't die on a cross). The shape of the stauros Jesus died on shouldn't be an issue, but the Org has stuck its neck out and made it one.

Absolutely fascinating, Kurt - I've only seen the first one you've embedded so far. There is a Part 2: I know a few old-timers who'll want to see these. Thanks for posting

I wish there was a transcript too, Eoin. There's a whole court docket list where you can download a bunch of documents (for a price), but alas, no transcript to be seen

I'm sorry to interrupt this discussion but did anyone else find this thread title worryingly sinister?

The case ended up being settled out-of-court after a farcical defense by Watchtower (what were they thinking?!). Read Jon Redwood's reports on how it all went down: http://jwsurvey.org/child-abuse-2/news-bulletin-fessler-versus-watchtower-opening-statements-and-motions-in-jehovahs-witness-child-abuse-trial-day-1 http://jwsurvey.org/child-abuse-2/breaking-news-watchtowers-defense-collapses-jehovahs-witnesses-reproved-for-failure-to-report-child-abuse-settlement-with-fessler-reached

My goodness! You're right! You know I didn't even notice on first glance. Still, I think it looks quite fetching on her.

I don't get it. The bride looks modest to me. On the other hand, are those tight pants the groom is wearing?

Oxford Circus. Thank the Interwebs for Google Street View ? I would love to know the story behind that picture. Is 'loudspeaker man' shouting about JWs or something completely unrelated? AWESOME!

I think the man with the loudspeaker is walking up and down past the hospital building rapping and beatboxing at the top of his voice, but really, really badly, and he won't shut up. He's been going at it for 5 hours straight and believes his new composition is the best he's done yet so he wants the exposure. Meanwhile inside, a mother and child are in great distress - see the child is crying. This contributes to the awful din being heard inside the hospital, so much so, that the patients and hospital staff are getting severe headaches. Everyone is in a state of high anxiety. To throw off all that anxiety, throw things at the man. Hope that helps.

Ooh wow! Beautiful Southern Lights! ❤️️ More pictures from the same (I think) event in Nov. 2015. Thanks for posting

Queen Esther, the thread title was put in the form of a question, thereby inviting comment. The 'photo' in the OP was actually an infographic with accompanying remarks. Again, this invites discussion. Sometimes we simply are unaware that a view is mistaken. I'm sure all of us wouldn't want to intentionally spread "false stories" but rather do our best to be accurate and truthful in what we present for the edification of 'brothers and sisters in the faith.' Agape

If the true origin is uncertain, how can it be 'evident' it's rooted in paganism rather than in romantic legends concocted in Middle Ages England? The article mentions Brewer’s Dictionary of Phrase and Fable. The edition available to read online is from c. 1952 (so the Awake's quote referencing Lupercalia doesn't match) and it repeats the apparently mistaken idea about the celebration being connected to Juno. Again, the information contained in this article amounts to 'maybe its origin is a bit o' this, or a bit o' that.' Too speculative to condemn out-of-hand as a direct replacement for an ancient pagan rite. Besides, *** g03 9/22 p. 24 The Piñata—An Ancient Tradition *** "A main concern is, not what the practice meant hundreds of years ago, but how it is viewed today in your area." Why is the Valentine's Day custom not given similar latitude? Shouldn't it be up to every 'true Christian's' conscience as to whether to observe it or not, or to what extent? Well, this is not for the regular amateur, ... Yes it is rather long and involved - tl;dr for many, I guess. In summary, then (and this bears on the whole approach to critically analyzing and using sources): "Panbabylonism is now regarded as discredited speculation. The Panbabylonists were/are criticised for their: (1) Disregard for textual evidence. (2) Excessive speculation (postulates and assumptions) and absence of rigorous evidence. (3) Abuse of the argument from analogy. (4) Wide use of secondary sources. (5) Wide use of antiquated translations. (6) Use of a preconceived chronology of Babylonian civilization. (7) Uncritically argued ideas about an alleged Babylonian "Weltanschauung [world view] (i.e., astral philosophy)." (8) Inability to provide any directly supporting statements contained in texts (i.e., the Panbabylonists could only argue their tenets were implied in widely divergent material). (9) Overstressing "parallels" and similarities. (10) Far-fetched interpretations and combinations." - Gary D. Thompson (Hislop comes to mind and he is indeed mentioned among the proponents of the panbabylonian mindset further down in the article.) St. Valentine wouldn't be spoken about in the Bible because he existed in the 3rd century CE, long after the last book of the Bible was written. And the celebration of e.g. wedding anniversaries, baby showers, baptism gifts, and end-of-the-pioneer-year parties aren't mentioned in the Bible either.

The Insight book entry continues: "Tradition has it that Nimrod died a violent death. Since the god Marduk (Merodach) was regarded as the founder of Babylon, it has been suggested by some that Marduk represents the deified Nimrod. However, the opinions of scholars as to the identification of deities with specific humans are quite varied." [Emphasis mine.] Are traditions, suggestions by some and varied opinions about identifications solid bases to conclude anything? Notice who one of the sources is: Do Wilkinson, Rawlinson and others indisputably prove that all civilizations' religious systems have a common origin? I suggest Hislop's book is consulted for references (he does cite these two authors and their works may be viewable online) to see if they do indeed support this conclusion. However, regarding the once-popular concept of panbabylonianism (common origin for all religions and cultures), please see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panbabylonism and http://members.westnet.com.au/gary-david-thompson/page9e.html However, this is a sidebar to the subject of whether St. Valentine's Day is any way related to the worship of Nimrod.

Thanks for tracking it down, JW Insider. Ah. Therefore, we can dismiss any information culled from this source as unreliable. Any claims from centuries-old works should be treated with caution. It's wise to check their sources, if they've provided any, and see if scholarship has moved forward since that time with new information. If no sources are given, then it's prudent to cross-check with current findings and/or take what the antiquarian author says with a barrel of salt. The work alluded to by Francis Douce is an 1807 commentary on Shakespeare's plays. It's in the discussion of Hamlet that Douce explains the background to Ophelia's reference to 'Valentine' and links it to Lupercalia. http://www.gutenberg.org/files/50228/50228-h/50228-h.htm (1839 ed.) - p. 470f. He says it used to be a festival in honor of Pan and Juno, "the latter deity was named februata, februalis, and februlla." I can't find reputable corroboration for Juno being called these names. For a start, Juno gave the month June its name, not February, so how is she associated with rites in February? Some research on the purification festival of Februa or the god Februus might be useful. Douce did name his source for some of his information: Alban Butler. The relevant work must be The Lives of the Fathers, Martyrs, and Other Principal Saints, Vol II, published 1756–1759. https://archive.org/stream/livesfathersmar09butlgoog#page/n149/mode/2up/search/Valentine (1866 ed.) - p. 135. It's a short piece, and Butler doesn't provide any sources for this comment: "To abolish the heathen's lewd superstitious custom of boys drawing the names of Girls in honour of their goddess Februta Juno, on the 15th of this month, several zealous pastors substituted the names of saints on billets given on this day." Again we see the (mistaken?) Juno association, but Lupercalia isn't mentioned at all in the 'Saint Valentine' entry. And who were these pastors? More research is need to ascertain this story's veracity. As for The Golden Age's assessment of Valentine's Day, its sources are unknown, uncredited, and therefore unverifiable. Regarding all the 'other names for Nimrod,' I'd like to ask Bible Speaks again: What is/are your source(s) for these name associations to Nimrod?

I hope it's OK to ask you some questions. I'd like to ask: What is/are the source(s) of your information? I see you've referenced The Golden Age article, but do you know where the magazine got its information from?

Meanwhile, I'm watching the developments of the Fessler vs Watchtower, et al trial with interest ...

Queen Esther, I don't understand. Are not threads posted on a discussion forum meant to be discussed or commented on? Is there a forum rule I've overlooked somewhere? I was alerting Bible Speaks to the problem of relying on faulty sources. We always want to "trace all things with accuracy" like Luke did, do we not? I'm not one for flowery language so I may come across as blunt sometimes. Please be assured that my exasperation is directed at the long-lasting influence Hislop's work has had rather than at BS. If my manner has upset BS, then I am sorry.

Sorry to break it to you, but the Two Babylons book has been discredited as pseudo-history. Not even the Org quotes from it any more. A detailed and scathing review of Two Babylons was written in an old British journal: The Saturday Review, Sept. 17, 1859 (link to full review): "We should not have thought it worth while to notice Mr. Hislop's lucubrations if his book had not reached a second edition, and thus revealed the melancholy intellectual condition of a portion at least of the British public. For the sake of this class of readers, it may perhaps not be amiss to state gravely why we dissent from his line of argument. "In the first place, his whole superstructure is raised upon nothing. Our earliest authority for the history of Semiramis wrote about the commencement of the Christian era, and the historian from whom he drew his information lived from fifteen hundred to two thousand years after the date which Mr. Hislop assigns to the great Assyrian Queen. The most lying legend which the Vatican has ever endorsed stands on better authority than the history which is now made the ground of a charge against it. "Secondly, the whole argument proceeds upon the assumption that all heathenism has a common origin. Accidental resemblances in mythological details are taken as evidence of this, and nothing is allowed for the natural working of the human mind. "Thirdly, Mr. Hislop's reasoning would make anything of anything. By the aid of obscure passages in third-rate historians, groundless assumptions of identity, and etymological torturing of roots, all that we know, and all that we believe, may be converted, as if by the touch of Harlequin's wand, into something totally different. "Fourthly, Mr. Hislop's argument proves too much. He finds not only the corruptions of Popery, but the fundamental articles of the Christian Faith, in his hypothetical Babylonian system. ... "... But it is idle to speak seriously of a book which only claims attention by its matchless absurdity, and by the fact that it apparently finds readers. We take leave of Mr. Hislop and his work with the remark that we never before quite knew the folly of which ignorant or half-learned bigotry is capable." - p. 340 [paragraphs added for ease of reading] It's remarkable that 2 centuries later, Hislop's misinformation still suckers people in. Also worth a peep - the story of one man who fell for it hook, line and sinker, and wrote a bestseller based on it, but was then told he'd been had: http://www.apologeticsindex.org/2808-a-profile-in-integrity-ralph-woodrow

"There is no evidence of any link between St. Valentine's Day and the rites of the ancient Roman festival [Lupercalia], despite many claims by many authors.[18][42][notes 1] The celebration of Saint Valentine did not have any romantic connotations until Chaucer's poetry about "Valentines" in the 14th century.[24]" - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valentine's_Day#Connection_with_romantic_love