JaniceM

If it is very serious stuff to to add God's name in the NT, than it would also be very serious stuff for kings, priests, scribes, scholars, or translators to remove it from the OT "and thus mislead people." However, God is judge. If it is a sin or wrong to add God's name to the New Testament or Old Testament, than the same condemnation would apply to other words, scriptures, verses, chapters, passages or books added to many Bible(s), whether OT/NT. I still fail to see the same outrage or condemnation. Persons are concerned for the removal of God's name (the most important name they should know), yet not for the addition of words and verses added to their Bibles to mislead them in addition to the removal of the Divine name being replaced with LORD/Lord, GOD/God. To have better clarity of the verses, I think it is best to know which verses actually should contain the Divine Name whether in the OT or NT as it gives us more insight as to who God is and know him. The Israelites wanted to know what God's name meant to them, and Jesus said he had made God's name known as he knew him. It is vital to know God's name and call upon it. We could argue this matter, it's not here or there until kingdom comes. Is it relevant to our salvation? If you feel this is the case, then feel free to produce one or two verses you think misleads the reader by a substitution of God's name. However, please stay in this thread so we can wrap this up as my time is a bit limited.

The above quotes were to point out Bibles or holy writings were burned with the Divine name, and that may have included many of the NT writings with the Divine Name. I'm not understanding the condemnation of including God's name in his Word whereas there is not the same condemnation for the way it was so carefully excluded. We also still have a short for of God's name mentioned in the NT (Yah/Jah) which is included in the name of many Jews and prophets.

Shiwii, I understand your point of view although we are not on the same page. All we have are copies of the OT and NT, and we can't say definitely that God's name was not also originally included in the NT. A few other Bible translations have also chosen to include God's name in the OT instead of LORD/Lord, GOD/God; still less in the NT where especially Jesus would have quoted from the OT; or use all caps where there was a direct quote from the OT. Matthew 4:10 New American Standard Bible - Then Jesus said to him, "Go, Satan! For it is written, 'YOU SHALL WORSHIP THE LORD YOUR GOD, AND SERVE HIM ONLY.'" Matthew 4:10 New Living Translation - "Get out of here, Satan," Jesus told him. "For the Scriptures say, 'You must worship the LORD your God and serve only him.'" Matthew 4:10 Aramaic Bible in Plain English - Then Yeshua said to him, “Depart Satan, for it is written: 'You shall worship THE LORD JEHOVAH your God and him alone shall you serve.' “ Reasoning being, one: The divine name more than likely occurred in the original NT writings and scribes continued their habit of switching the divine name with Lord or God instead. Two: The Almighty God wanted his name known in all the world having been recorded perhaps over 7,000 times in the OT. It would be illogical for Jesus not to have used God's name while on earth, and it should have been recorded exactly the way he said it, assuming God did not give a command to the apostles or disciples to specifically forbid it's usage either verbally or written beginning with the NT. This would not make sense. I understand some scholars find including God's name in the NT to be outrageous, however, I think they should be more outraged with God's name being removed/replaced entirely with words that were not originally there (LORD/Lord, GOD/God) causing this confusion to began with. For me it is outrageous that I spent a good portion of my life growing up thinking God's name is God. I can only imagine how God felt about this indifference to his holy name. At any rate, God is judge and will render judgment concerning his name whether we are right or wrong. God has sufficiently told us everything we need in order to gain salvation. I have not researched specifically ever instance of where the NWT has inserted the name Jehovah. However, if there are any special instances where you think it changed the meaning of any particular verse, perhaps we can discuss that and it will give me the opportunity to do my homework. I am quite busy there days so it might take me a while to answer back.

Yes, that statement is a bit exaggerated. Because most English Bibles did not contain the divine name at all, many witnesses will state that or because they may not be as studious as some others to make comparisons. However, several English translations have worked to add it back in many places.

Hi Defender, What they may be referring to are later translations of the KJB like the NKJV and others: New King James Version - Psalm 83:18 That they may know that You, whose name alone is the Lord, Are the Most High over all the earth. King James 2000 Bible - Psalms 83:18 - That men may know that you, whose name alone is the LORD, are the most high over all the earth. However, some older translations still contain the name in a few verses: King James Bible - Psalm 83:18 That men may know that thou, whose name alone is JEHOVAH, art the most high over all the earth. American King James Version - Psalm 83:18 That men may know that you, whose name alone is JEHOVAH, are the most high over all the earth.

I do apologize, I thought I was responding to defender as it seems that chip is still on your shoulder. To clarify the matter, I understand your main concern is with the NT and not the OT. There is some proof that the original writings of the NT did contain the divine name, but upon speaking with so many about this issue, it appears they would prefer solid proof like a NT manuscript or fragment of sort that contains the complete tetragrammaton of God's name whereas we only have a short form of God's name in the NT that is also pronounced in the names of many Jews and prophets. I'm also not quite sure the reason or backlash against JWs on this matter as this argument did not start with JWs, and neither did they make it up. At any rate, below are some examples or quotes concerning these issues, which I'm sure you may already be aware of, so excuse me for being redundant: 1). HALLELUJAH - (Hal·le·lu′jah). A transliteration of the Hebrew expression ha·lelu-Yah′, appearing first at Psalm 104:35. (Psalm 104:35) The sinners will be finished off from the earth; And as for the wicked, they will be no longer. Bless Jehovah, O my soul. Praise Jah, YOU people! (NWT) Rev 19:1 King James Bible - And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God: Rev 19:1 - New International Version - After this I heard what sounded like the roar of a great multitude in heaven shouting: "Hallelujah! Salvation and glory and power belong to our God, (Revelation 19:1) After these things I heard what was as a loud voice of a great crowd in heaven. They said: “Praise Jah, YOU people! The salvation and the glory and the power belong to our God, (NWT) 2. "Some examples include Isaiah [Jehovah's help or salvation], Jehoshua [Jehovah a helper], Jehu [Jehovah is He]. In the entry, Jehovah, Smith writes: "JEHOVAH (יְהֹוָה, usually with the vowel points of אֲדֹנָי; but when the two occur together, the former is pointed יֱהֹוִה, that is with the vowels of אֱלֹהִים, as in Obad. i. 1, Hab. iii. 19:"[96] This practice is also observed in many modern publications, such as the New Compact Bible Dictionary (Special Crusade Edition) of 1967 and Peloubet's Bible Dictionary of 1947." - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jehovah (Isa'iah) [Salvation of Jehovah]; (Jeremi'ah) [possibly, Jehovah Exalts; or, Jehovah Loosens [likely from the womb]]; (Obadi'ah) [Servant of Jehovah]; (Zephani'ah) [Jehovah Has Concealed (Treasured Up)]; (Zechari'ah) [Jehovah Has Remembered]; Jesus (Greek, I.e.sous’; Hebrew, Jeshua, (Yeshua); Jehoshua (Yehoshua) meaning “Salvation [or Help] of Jah (Yah) [Jehovah/Yehovah].” "The consensus among scholars is that the historical vocalization of the Tetragrammaton at the time of the redaction of the Torah (6th century BCE) is most likely Yahweh. The historical vocalization was lost because in Second Temple Judaism, during the 3rd to 2nd centuries BCE, the pronunciation of the Tetragrammaton came to be avoided, being substituted with Adonai ("my Lord"). The Hebrew vowel points of Adonai were added to the Tetragrammaton by the Masoretes, and the resulting form was transliterated around the 12th century as Yehowah.[1] The derived forms Iehouah and Jehovah first appeared in the 16th century." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jehovah 3. "Origen wrote of the Septuagint: “In the most accurate manuscripts THE NAME occurs in Hebrew characters, yet not in today’s Hebrew [characters], but in the most ancient ones.” - http://www.jw.org/en/publications/bible/nwt/appendix-a/tetragrammaton-divine-name/ 4. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tetragrammaton_in_the_New_Testament: A passage recorded in the Hebrew Tosefta, Shabbat 13:5, quoting Tarfon is sometimes cited to suggest that early Christian writings or copies contained the Tetragrammaton.[5] Shabbat 13:5 — A. The books of the Evangelists and the books of the minim they do not save from a fire [on the Sabbath]. They are allowed to burn up where they are, they and [even] the references to the Divine Name that are in them.[6] This same source quotes Rabbi Jose the Galilean (who lived in the 1st and 2nd centuries of the common era): “one cuts out the references to the Divine Name which are in them [the Christian writings] and stores them away, and the rest burns.”[citation needed] Laurence Schiffman[7] views this as a discussion of whether to rescue section of the sifre minim (Hebrew language texts of Jewish Christians) containing the tetragrammata from a house fire. Another interpretation suggests this is a reference to Old Testament Torah and not the Gospels.[8] Although none of the extant Greek New Testament manuscripts contain the Tetragrammaton, scholar George Howard has suggested that the Tetragrammaton appeared in the original New Testament autographs,[9] and that "the removal of the Tetragrammaton from the New Testament and its replacement with the surrogates κυριος and θεος blurred the original distinction between the Lord God and the Lord Christ."[9] In the Anchor Bible Dictionary, Howard states: "There is some evidence that the Tetragrammaton, the Divine Name, Yahweh, appeared in some or all of the OT quotations in the NT when the NT documents were first penned."[9]:392 Along with Howard, David Trobisch and Rolf Furuli both have suggested that the Tetragrammaton may have been removed from the Greek manuscripts.[10]:66–67[11]:179–191 In the book Archaeology and the New Testament, John McRay wrote of the possibility that the New Testament autographs may have retained the divine name in quotations from the Old Testament.[12]Robert Baker Girdlestone stated in 1871 that if the Septuagint had used "one Greek word for Jehovah and another for Adonai, such usage would doubtless have been retained in the discourses and arguments of the N.T. Thus our Lord in quoting the 110th Psalm,...might have said 'Jehovah said unto Adoni.'"[13] Since Girdlestone's time it has been shown that the Septuagint contained the Tetragrammaton, but that it was removed in later editions.[14]

Below are some references online to the divine name in other Bibles or some older manuscripts or fragments: 1. http://www.eliyah.com/yhwhdss.html - "Yahweh's name is found in the Dead Sea Scrolls over 2200 times." 2. (Removal of God's name replaced with LORD) KJV - Psalm 83:18 That men may know that thou, whose name alone is Jehovah, art the most high over all the earth. NKJV - Psalm 83:18 That they may know that You, whose name alone is the Lord, Are the Most High over all the earth. 3. https://fromthesunrising.wordpress.com/2010/09/26/the-divine-namespoken-by-jesus-and-early-christians/ " However, there were evidences found out from some fragments of original Septuagint which have excavated as it was from the Old Testament written in Greek. One of these fragments was found by researchers and gave them a dating from 50 B.C. to 50 C.E. Below are pictures of those fragments which contain tetragrammaton and had taken from Wikipedia’s site. You can see the picture from this link site: http://www.eliyah.com/lxx.html" ". . . Thus he denied the evidence of Origen that in the more accurate manuscripts the Divine Name was written in ancient (palaeo-Hebrew) script and the later testimony of Jerome to the same effect. As Waddell pointed out, Baudissin’s summary statement is “flatly disproved” by the Fouad Papyrus, and now a Qumran fragment of Leviticus ii-iv, written in a hand closely akin to Fouad 266, has been found to render the Tetragrammaton by IAW. Kahle is also of the opinion, and claims the concurrence of C.H. Roberts, that in the Rylands Papyrus Greek 458, at Deuteronomy xxvi.17 where the text breaks off just before the appearance of the Divine Name, the original bore not Kyrios as Roberts originally supposed, but the unabridged Tetragrammaton. It would seem therefore that the evidence most recently to hand is tending to confirm the testimony of Origen and Jerome, and that Kahle is right in holding that LXX texts, written by Jews for Jews, retained the Divine Name in Hebrew Letters (palaeo-Hebrew or Aramaic) or in the Greek imitative form PIPI, and that its replacement by Kyrios was a Christian innovation.[22]" "The fact is, according also to some Talmud that have found, there are rabbis who killed people with scrolls having tetragrammaton and who did not refrain from pronouncing the divine name. The underlying fact is that they gathered most of the scrolls with tetragrammaton and burned them all and have made new copies of scrolls of the Old Testament with Kurios/Kyrios. And consequently have scrupulously translated new manuscripts of the New Testament with Kyrios as a substitute for tetragrammaton and then buried their revised scrolls."

Hi Witness, sorry it took me a while to get back to you. I did read your response several times. I will again repeat as often as necessary: The spiritual paradise I mentioned revolves around the truth, specifically the ministry and gospel message of Christ concerning the good news of the kingdom. This appears to be Jesus main focus when he began his ministry and what he taught his followers to pray for considering the verses below: Luke 4:43 But he said to them: “Also to other cities I must declare the good news of the kingdom of God, because for this I was sent forth.” Luke 8:1 Shortly afterwards he went journeying from city to city and from village to village, preaching and declaring the good news of the kingdom of God. And the twelve were with him, Matt 6:9 “YOU must pray, then, this way: “‘Our Father in the heavens, let your name be sanctified. 10 Let your kingdom come. Matt 5:10 “Happy are those who have been persecuted for righteousness’ sake, since the kingdom of the heavens belongs to them. Matt 5:5 Happy are the mild_-tempered, since they will inherit the earth. The gospel message would also include the news of Jesus' death and resurrection for forgiveness of sins, which paves the way for many to gain everlasting life. Therefore, I found the assertions below unfounded: Witness said: "that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved." Rom 10:9 We cannot preach this in the organization and avoid disfellowshipping, since this is a rejection of the image of the organization as a source of salvation. Rev 13:15 Disfellowshipping is a cutting off, a silencing and a depiction of one viewed as spiritually "dead". I believe this view of the organization as a spiritual paradise is dangerous ground. Considering that there are major problems, but allegiance to it must persist, each heart is placed in jeopardy. Why should one tolerate major problems when we each are responsible for sole devotion to and in our service to God and Jesus? End Quote Rom 9:22 If, now, God, although having the will to demonstrate his wrath and to make his power known, tolerated with much long-suffering vessels of wrath made fit for destruction, 23 in order that he might make known the riches of his glory upon vessels of mercy, which he prepared beforehand for glory, 24 namely, us, whom he called not only from among Jews but also from among nations, [what of it]? If now, God has tolerated the ruining of his creation by sinful man, and devastating wickedness, I would consider that to be dealing with a major problem. Surely, if God has put up with these conditions for thousands of years so that we might be saved, the least we can do is try to get along while voicing our concerns. Although we may be dealing with what can seem to be insurmountable problems, shameful injustices, issues mishandled or not properly addressed, whether past, present, or future, the same could be said of the first century congregation and of Christendom as a whole; except not all have truth. A team of wild horses could not drag me back as this would be the dog returning to its vomit. I appreciate what we do have even if it's not perfect. If for example, Hannah took offense at a priest accusing her of being drunk and decided never to go back to the temple, she would not have had the opportunity to have a child such as Samuel that grew up as a faithful servant of God and to the nation of Israel. Hannah could have taken the position that a priest being the anointed of God, should have known she was not drunk, but instead added to all the hurt she had experienced from a rival wife. You praised some of the "prophets of old who led people correctly", such as Moses, etc. These men were not perfect and failed in their duties as well. Many of these priests, prophets and rulers led the wayward nation of Israel to their destruction, not once, but twice. Samuel himself witnessed priests taking women to lie down with them in the temple. Priests and rulers alike were responsible for the abuse and burning of children as sacrifices, and the misapplying of law to take land away from widows and orphans also leading ultimately to the nation's demise. Moses himself failed to sanctify Jehovah before the nation of Israel and was not allowed lead the people into the Promise Land, neither was he himself allowed in. The society has in every instance never failed in leading the organization proclaiming and praising Jehovah's name in all the world. However, this seems to escape your recognition. Moses also failed to even circumcise his own son except under threat of death from an angel. King David led thousands of Israelites to their death by an illegal census and murdered a man to hide his adultery. King Saul was also anointed of God at one time and he led his men to disobey God's instructions. He was removed by God as I'm sure you remember. God has removed and devastated nations and kings. He too has the power to correct his people or congregations. Witness said: If our rulers are misleading and causing confusion how can they be blessed with Holy Spirit? End Quote I would like to know who you consider to be "our rulers"? Witness said: This is hardly the case when the “Temple” is treated as such: Anointed Christians do not feel that they should spend time only with other anointed ones, as if they were members of a club. They do not try to find other anointed ones so that they can talk about being anointed or meet in groups to study the Bible. (Galatians 1:15-17) The congregation would not be united if anointed ones did this. They would be working against the holy spirit, which helps God’s people to have peace and unity. W 16/1 pp. 20-26 This truly is blaspheming God’s name and suffocating the Body of Christ. The uniting of the congregation is through the unification of the Body and allows Holy Spirit to flow to the advantage of everyone. 1 Cor 2:13 The words of the WT are in severe contradiction to scripture and the building up of the Temple. End Quote In rebuttal, the priests of Israel did not just congregate among themselves. They were scattered throughout the twelve tribes of Israel and they cooperated with the prophets, older men and kings. I also see where the kings, older men/elders and prophets provided more instruction than the priests. Numbers 11:25 Then Jehovah came down in a cloud and spoke to him and took away some of the spirit that was upon him and put it upon each of the seventy older men. And it came about that as soon as the spirit settled down upon them, then they proceeded to act as prophets; . . . 29 However, Moses said to him: “Are you feeling jealous for me? No, I wish that all of Jehovah’s people were prophets, because Jehovah would put his spirit upon them!” 30 Later Moses withdrew to the camp, he and the older men of Israel. Witness said: Was the institution of the early temple ignored before Jesus came? The early tabernacle held God’s presence. Ex 40:36-38. Later the temple replaced the tabernacle as representation of God’s presence among his people. 2 Chron. 7:16; Ezek. 37:26-28 The newly created Temple, Christ's Body, through the New Covenant exists within the anointed ones. End Quote In the past, God's spirit allowed the anointed ones to heal the sick, open the eyes of the blind, resurrect the dead, speak boldly before governors and kings about the magnificent things of God. The anointed were happy to be ridiculed, humiliated and face all sort of persecution and death, but yet now at this time of the end, how can they be silent, oppressed and voiceless of their lowly status and servitude? Surely, God's spirit has not failed them: "The newly created Temple, Christ's Body" or "anointed ones" Witness said: The “worship of angels” is the abnormal admiration given anointed ones – the GB – over the whole of the Body of Christ. Angels are God's messengers, God's messengers are also his "priests". (Mal 2:7) If the Body is to remain inseparable and to grow through its adherence to each other, superiority and ruling over other members of this Body shows that evidence of those lording it over their own body members as disconnected with the Head, who is Christ. Mark 10:42 Even though there are conflicting teachings, unfulfilled end time dates, child abuse cases gone to court, evidence brought out by the organization itself that faith in anything like it is idolatry (still, identity to it is required), you still believe the organization is a spiritual paradise? End Quote I myself haven't see any "lording it over" of the anointed by the governing body(anointed), or them being given "abnormal admiration" or "worship of angels". What I do see is jealousy and envy of a great magnitude and all sort of grumblings and complaints online which I'm not sure why. If anyone can do any better in proclaiming the kingdom, perhaps God will help them exceed. I grew up among the many churches and denominations where people glorified the pastor and their wives at least once or twice a year with a special program, food and songs, not to mention special anniversaries. I've never been asked to praise a certain elder or circuit overseer or governing body member. At best we share meals to visiting guest speakers and their wives. It would also be very difficult to pinpoint for a certain which of the anointed are responsible for any particular misinformation of dates, filing away or sweeping under the rug allegations of abuse, etc. whether it started within Christendom or Barbour, Brother Russell, Rutherford, Knorr, . . . governing body, committees, congregation of elders (anointed or not). At this point, I'm not sure what the solution would be since all are imperfect and fallible. Even those that had direct communication with God, such as the apostles, prophets and priests were wrong from time to time and had to be corrected. Many continued to worship Jehovah faithfully among the nation of Israel or in the congregations, and I would still consider our basis tenets of faith as true worship and a spiritual paradise with no comparison among the nations or Christendom. Lastly: Witness said: I should clarify how this happens. If I was to spread the words I earlier stated to my fellow JWs after speaking to elders about such a biblical based belief, disfellowshipping ensues, and it happens every day. Now, if I were to deny scriptural admonition to preach this new found enlightenment for fear of being shunned and then just walk away, I may be left alone and could continue in good standing with the congregation. But, of course, this goes against scripture to remain silent. End Quote: From the scripture you quoted, I think all brothers and sisters would agree with you concerning that particular verse and I still cannot see where quoting scripture would result in disfellowshiping. However, if you feel a need to bring up all these other issues or they continue to disturb your conscience, maybe you should pray fervently to Jehovah to help you do what's right in this regard. Sometimes it helps just to write things down or even send an anonymous letter to the society about all your concerns. One thing I've learned is that there comes a time when no one has an answer or can help us except Jehovah and that is the time we truly need to let him work things out for our benefit or the benefit of his people. I spoke to one young man that was not a witness that he should write his concerns to the society and he said after he did he feel peace about the issue he had with a brother and he wasn't going to worry about it any more. The important thing is to continue in the things of Christ by following his example and not let divisiveness conquer us which was the beginning of so many sects and denominations today. Concerning the issue of idolatry or your assertion of allegiance, I have covered in my original response to you. If you would like me to post that response I will or if you wish to continue these bones of contention, please respond and I will reply when I can.

Guess I didn't watch all of it, or it wasn't worth watching; a bit too defiant and inciting. I don't remember much after the middle finger and balled up fists . . . if I can remember correctly.

Terrence Howard's divorce settlement with his ex-wife, Michelle Ghent, was thrown out by the court. He said he only signed the settlement for she threatened to make certain personal info or videos public and it would have harmed his career. Accusations went back and forth of infidelity, racism, and abuse. However, I do remember on the stand, he stated at the time he was a Jehovah Witness and was trying to be faithful to his wife. But others may have additional info.

Wonderful!

Not quite sure, the world is so full of distractions. I'm sure he had Jehovah in his heart.

I'll be wrapping things up by the end of the week, so I'll get the other mail out to you tomorrow perhaps. 1. My experiences growing up among the churches was being surrounded by teachings of my soul floating away to heaven or burning in hell. I never heard anything about the kingdom of God until I started studying with JWs. I have had experience with Mormons visiting our home maybe once in my lifetime, but it wasn't to preach about God's kingdom. I think that the gospel of the kingdom was one of the essential gospel messages of Christ and a duty for all to declare. So when I speak of truth, it's about the kingdom of Christ and the benefits it would bring to mankind. I prayed to God to show me the truth and his people and he did, and for the most part my questions were answered. There is no religion or denomination totally correct about everything or they would be perfect, and there is no denomination I agree with on everything. They are all imperfect bodies of people. However, when I left the churches, just as many others, I was determined to never set foot in one again. Turning away from a spiritual paradise would be like a dog going back to its vomit. 2. From my view, I have seen a lot of neglect, hurt feelings and some major problems needing major corrections, however, I see no urgency or crisis as for as those anointed are concerned. They are in God's hands to put in whatever rightful position he desires, not mine. 3. I don't see where a person can be disfellowshipped for quoting the Bible. Witness said: If you were to approach the elders and say, “I believe the only way to serve God is through Christ, for he said ‘I am the way and the truth and the life’ and I believe this is the accurate way to God We realize there is some judging of serious matters within the congregation, but we don't want to be judging or finding fault continuously with the imperfections of each other or picking at straws. I understand you are on the road so I'll cease here. If there are any further issues feel free to reply when you can. I still have a reply for your 04/19 posting, which I will post within the next day or two.

Just remember if you take 2 miles, I'll take 4. 1). My faith needed to be strong and I hadn't built up a strong core or backbone. Although determined to dedicate myself to what I knew was the truth, it was easy to yield to my own weaknesses and the relentless attacks for several years after getting baptized; now, although imperfect, unshakeable. 2). Context is everything and my official response will come later. Again, it's not always a matter of here or there, this or that. Upon speaking for many years with many aggressive atheists, Muslims, etc., we've had to deal with the same sort of 'your Bible is corrupt 101/1001 contradictions in the Bible, flip flop, wishy washy, make believe fairy tale God/god holy book written by men.' 'Your Paul is a liar (no works)/James (you must have works); God said count the men/Satan said count the fighting men; Jesus (no one has seen God)/men saw God and had lunch with him.)' (smile) So you see the problem here . . . which left us scrambling for we were not about to let anyone get the best of our holy book and trample those precious peals under our feet. With God's help, pure tenacity and using Watchtower and other online websites, and resources, letting scripture explain scripture, we were able to help also other Christians shut down their arguments before the dust settled. With the Christians, either Jesus is Michael or the 'Watchtower made it up.' 'If they lied about this, what else are they lying about?' I'm glad I didn't feed into the propaganda, and just lay down and die. I was able to use their own Trinitarian commentaries against them. 3). We do believe in Jesus and have always said so. 4). I recall Jesus saying to the effect, “Not everyone saying to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the kingdom of the heavens, but the one doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens will. 22 Many will say to me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and expel demons in your name, and perform many powerful works in your name?’ 23 And yet then I will confess to them: I never knew YOU! Get away from me, YOU workers of lawlessness. (Matt 7:21-34) Many do preach or prophesy in Jesus' name which is good, but they should also be following in the footsteps of Christ, obeying his commandments. To not do so would be an act of disobedience and lawlessness. Matt 28:19 Go therefore and make disciples of people of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all the things I have commanded you. And, look! I am with you all the days until the conclusion of the system of things.” (NWT) Jesus said unto them, "I must announce the gospel of the kingdom of God to other cities also because for this am I sent." ““And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.”” (Luke 4:43 Jubilee Bible) (Matt 24:14 KJV) 5). Jesus was concerned with paying attention to even the smallest letter of the law. This in itself was not dangerous, but beneficial. Paying attention to the trivial traditions of the Pharisees made their worship in vain. Witness said: It is important to recognize the “small stuff” that can threaten one’s faith, by insistence on abiding by the “small stuff”. Jesus made a point in bringing out the Pharisees’ deliberate attention to detail and how dangerous it can be. Perhaps you don’t sweat the small stuff, but it can corrode your brother or sister’s faith, even yours; if we love one another we are concerned for the faith of each one of us. *I can agree, paying attention to every nonessential detail or sayings of men can be dangerous and quite burdensome. At this point, I don't see where we are over burdened in following the commandments of Jesus, although I have had to deal with some overbearing brothers and sisters that insist the Watchtower has never been wrong or are quick to label one an brother for thinking a little outside the box. The Watchtower itself has to my knowledge never said they were infallible or always correct. 6) I'm not sure how much more efficiently things could be done, as I see we are all working together in the body of Christ as publishers of the good news. God is not powerless to accomplish his will toward his anointed ones or any of us. God is not powerless to remove those nor favorable disposed. Not sweating the small stuff means not focusing on everything wrong. God does not focus on everything we do or say wrong, but our desire to worship him and do the right things according to his will. Many of those anointed or appointed by Christ, said, thought and did the wrong things, so this is agreeable, we can't put anyone upon a pedestal. “Stop judging that YOU may not be judged; 2 for with what judgment YOU are judging, YOU will be judged; and with the measure that YOU are measuring out, they will measure out to YOU. 3 Why, then, do you look at the straw in your brother’s eye, but do not consider the rafter in your own eye? 4 Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Allow me to extract the straw from your eye’; when, look! a rafter is in your own eye? 5 Hypocrite! First extract the rafter from your own eye, and then you will see clearly how to extract the straw from your brother’s eye." (Matt 7:1-5) I'll wait for your response before I proceed.

Hi Witness, I didn't want to quote your whole post as these writings go on for miles already. I will try to respond to your other mail later today if I don't get bogged down with others here. I also have to work 2 jobs next few weeks, so please excuse me if I don't answer right away. I do try to read all your responses to me and everyone. Also, it appears you may be getting some of my quotes mixed up with Shiwii. I guess I'm not fully understanding your concern or I don't see it as a major problem. I try not to sweat the small stuff. I read all the verses you quoted how the Lord or Jesus has stars in his hand, and the society stating he directs the stars/elders, or something to that effect. Then you mentioned something about the anointed. It got a little confusing for me. Witness said: Firstly, the stars do not only mean anointed elders, but all anointed ones within the Body of Christ, his Temple priests. 1 Pet 2:5,9; 1 Cor 6:19,20 We're all directed by God's holy spirit in different ways. If the society speculates on what certain verses mean toward the anointed or bodies of elders, I may agree with their speculations or not. As long as they are not telling me I need to worship them, they can make whatever speculations about the way they feel God or Christ is directing us, the elders, the anointed, or the organization. I do however have a problem with being told I can't speculate on some verses because someone decides their speculations have changed. But it's still not a bone of contention to cause me to dismiss my faith as others have done because I do agree with the main tenets of faith if not all in their entirety or my views have changed somewhat on certain issues. I've read older publications of the society that I have not totally agreed with or completely understood. The society has also rejected some earlier views as well. Often I look at commentaries online for opinions of certain verses. Some are similar, but of the hundreds/thousands, with their different speculations, I can agree or not, as their speculations can change over time as well. It's my choice what to accept or believe. No one can reach inside my mind. I don't have to be overly discontent and write letters to the editor to tell them they are going above their authority about what some verse means. There is a problem with outside views which I've had problems with, family, co-workers, neighbors etc., which caused me to stumble quite a bit, and it took me a long time to get back on my feet where I needed to be. Their complaints constantly buzzing in my ears and nit-picking everything in every publication, made me more concerned about what they said rather than my faith and relationship with Jehovah and focusing on the commandments and work Jesus instructed us to do. So now I say to anyone, tell me what you feel is the right way to go. They might suggest their faith or denomination, but usually, they can't give me an answer, other than list all the so-called cults to stay away from. They also say nothing of the preaching work or kingdom which was the main focus of Jesus' message. Lastly, I'm not sure what the solution would be to these statements below, whether the anointed ones should commence the operations of the society or not. Witness said: In the house of the Lord, his Temple, only chosen priests were to serve. The house of the Lord today is Christ’s Body, his Temple members, holy priesthood which are the anointed ones. Since the early temple was a shadow of the heavenly one, it takes the spiritual eye to see that the transgressing of the Temple today is through the elder arrangement esteemed to be the “stars” in Christ’s right hand. Witness said: The elder body are the “others” who have taken the place of the anointed ones; by doing so, God’s sanctuary is profaned. The have “entered” it by replacing God’s choice of whom should serve the people. Witness said: It is my opinion that not only is God’s name being profaned in this way, but through such actions, Christ and his Temple are rejected by the organization.

Jesus said he was son of God. He even admitted he was son of God before the Sanhedrin. If there was ever any time for him to make such a bold statement as you insist he did, that would have been the time, when he was on trial and before Pilate. I've heard of reading in between the lines, but it does no good to stick your head in the sand and pretend you don't recognize the truth.

1. I'm not sure what the implication is other than what I stated below, but feel free to elaborate just for argument sake: I did mention the majority of Bibles may have variant or spurious text. That doesn't mean all Bibles contain the same variants or spurious text, even if they are in the minority. 2. There is the public opinion among Christendom (including mainstream misinformed individuals who have failed to read their Bibles in its entirety or researched how Bibles are translated), that the KJB is the only correct translation or that the majority of translations are correct in their renditions of certain verses; that any translation that deviates from a common verse practice is heretical, even if those scholarly translators have just as much education and degrees, dismissing hundreds or thousands of hours of training, which is insulting to them and dishonest just for people to want to have their ears tickled. 12 hours ago, Shiwiii said: But this is not what the scripture says now is it? It clearly states that one must honor the Son inasmuch as one honors the Father. From John chapter 5 verse 16 through to 28 is dealing with the equality and authority of Jesus. 3. The scripture also states why the son is to be honored as Judge or the one that renders judgement, which is being disregarded to support the idea of worship instead. John 5:22-23 New American Standard 1977 - “For not even the Father judges anyone, but He has given all judgment to the Son, in order that all may honor the Son, even as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him" 12 hours ago, Shiwiii said: Who said that Jesus was equal with God? was it Jesus? yes, but more so it was John recording what the Jewish leaders understood Jesus' words to mean. 4. Jesus never said he was equal to God, which you'd rather believe the lies of wayward Jews instead; ones Jesus called children of the Devil and a Synagogue of Satan. Lies go on for miles with more twists and turns; and the more crooked they get, the more confusing. Since I can't get a clear sense out of the remainder of your words, I don't see a need to respond to the rest of whatever that was. (smile)

I'm sorry Witness, I did read over your mail, and hope to respond soon, but I have to start working some by tomorrow. Hopefully I won't get too much more distractions, interruptions, or butting in of conversations and I'll reread what you wrote and get back to you. But I have a feeling I'll have to finish tying up some loose ends for at least another 24/48 hours the way things are going.

You speak of high horses, and every response you've uttered has had an air of arrogance, hostility, and full of snide remarks, lacking scriptures and substance. It's easy to constantly shoot off a round of rude nothingness and then call the kettle black. If you can dish it out, be prepared to take it back. Everyone should stay in their place or prepare to be corrected. You are correct, and I never mentioned the verse in question to be considered spurious: (John 5:23) in order that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He that does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him. (NWT) I did mention the majority of Bibles may have variant or spurious text. That doesn't mean all Bibles contain the same variants or spurious text, even if they are in the minority. Just because a majority of translations may render a verse in a similar fashion, also doesn't make them accurate or correct if they doesn't convey the original understanding from the original language or the equivalent today. That's why there have been many updates to the King James Version, and most Bibles translations throughout the centuries and decades. I think it is a bad idea to accept something just because it is the popular opinion. Sometimes, we need to take the road less traveled. (I can repeat if necessary) Also, the problem with isolating a verse is, we may not get the full context of what is being said. So it may be best to read the whole chapter or book and research other verses from the Hebrew (OT) scriptures as well. Reading the context, Jesus honor equates to the honor one gives to a judge or to a king, and by recognizing his position as such we are also honoring his God and Father, the one who placed him in such a position to rule in his place and as representing His authority. (Daniel 7:14) And to him there were given rulership and dignity and kingdom, that the peoples, national groups and languages should all serve even him. His rulership is an indefinitely lasting rulership that will not pass away, and his kingdom one that will not be brought to ruin. John 5:22 For the Father judges no one at all, but he has committed all the judging to the Son, 23 in order that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He that does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him. 24 Most truly I say to YOU, He that hears my word and believes him that sent me has everlasting life, and he does not come into judgment but has passed over from death to life . . . 27 And he has given him authority to do judging, because Son of man he is.(NWT) John 1:49 Na·than′a·el answered him: “Rabbi, you are the Son of God, you are King of Israel.” 50 Jesus in answer said to him: “Because I told you I saw you underneath the fig tree do you believe? You will see things greater than these.” 51 He further said to him: “Most truly I say to YOU men, YOU will see heaven opened up and the angels of God ascending and descending to the Son of man.” (John 18:36) Jesus answered: “My kingdom is no part of this world. If my kingdom were part of this world, my attendants would have fought that I should not be delivered up to the Jews. But, as it is, my kingdom is not from this source.” (NWT) (John 3:35) The Father loves the Son and has given all things into his hand. (Philippians 2:10) so that in the name of Jesus every knee should bend of those in heaven and those on earth and those under the ground, Luke 10:16 “He that listens to YOU listens to me [too]. And he that disregards YOU disregards me [too]. Moreover, he that disregards me disregards [also] him that sent me forth.” Whereas many may feel Jesus being given the same honor or glory means the same as worship, they are free to come to that conclusion such as the commentary below: http://biblehub.com/john/5-23.htm Pulpit Commentary - Verse 23. - "The purpose of the entire commission of judgment to the Son, a bestowment which illustrates the quickening results that he (who does the will of the Father) wills to effect, is now gathered to a lofty climax, abundantly vindicating the right he had claimed to call God his own Father. It is as follows, in order that all may honour the Son. Τιμῶσιν, not προσκυνῶσιν ("honour," not "worship"), is the word used; but seeing that the identical sentiment of reverence due to the Supreme Being, to the Father, is that which is here said to be due to the Son, and is here declared to be the reason why all judgment is entrusted to the issues of his will, - we are at a loss to know how loftier attributes could be ascribed to the Son." Strong's Concordance for John 5:23 http://biblehub.com/greek/5091.htm Thayer's Greek Lexicon STRONGS NT 5091: τιμάω τιμάω, τιμῶ; future τιμήσω; 1 aorist ἐτίμησα; perfect passive participle τετιμημενος; 1 aorist middle ἐτιμησαμην; (τιμή); from Homer down; 1. to estimate, to fix the value; middle to fix the value of something belonging to oneself (Vulg.appretio; cf. Hagen, Sprachl. Erörterungen zur Vulgata, Freib. 1863, p. 99): τινα (R. V. to price), Matthew 27:9 (on which see ἀπό, I. 2); the Sept. for הֶעֱרִיך, Leviticus 27:8, 12, 14. 2. to honor (so uniformly A. V.), to have in honor, to revere, venerate; the Sept. for כִּבֵּד: God, Matthew 15:8; Mark 7:6; John 5:23; John 8:49; Christ, John 5:23; parents, Matthew 15:4; Matthew 19:19; Mark 7:10; Mark 10:19; Luke 18:20: Ephesians 6:2; other men, 1 Timothy 5:3; 1 Peter 2:17; With πολλαῖς τιμαῖς added, to honor with many honors, Acts 28:10; of God, rewarding Christians with honor and glory in his kingdom, John 12:26. (Compare: ἐπιτιμάω.) ' ' '

I will take your statement as confusion on your part and really bad paraphrasing, out of context imperfect "assumptions". And numerous amounts of study is exactly what you should be doing as that might help you more instead of writing smart remarks in the forum. You are out of your league here . . Since you have not studied, whatever 52/101 . . . translations of the Bible I have compared, they are all different. For example, just because the majority of Bibles may contain a variant reading or spurious text, does not mean all Bibles follow suit. Just because the majority of Bible translations are biased in their renditions of certain verses, doesn't mean all Bibles are. I also have no idea why you cannot understand simple things. Honor can mean deep respect which is the meaning for John 5:23, not worship or equal worship. Just as I would honor my mother and father the same, I would honor the son the same as the father. If I dishonor the son, it would also be dishonor to his Father. It would be the same as with human kings or their sons. HONOR - The principal Hebrew term denoting “honor” is ka·vohdh′, which literally means “heaviness.” (Compare the use of related terms in 1Sa 4:18 and 2Sa 14:26.) So a person who is honored is regarded as being weighty, or amounting to something. In Greek, the noun ti·me′ conveys the sense of “honor,” “esteem,” “value,” “preciousness.” Thus the verb ti·ma′o can also mean “set a price on” (Mt 27:9); the noun ti·me′ can have the sense of “price,” “value” (Mt 27:6; Ac 4:34); and the adjective ti′mi·os can mean “esteemed,” “dear, or valuable,” and “precious.”—Ac 5:34; 20:24; 1Co 3:12. If you do take the time to study, in the old KJ version of the Bible, you will find many people were actually worshiped because they represented God. I'll be here the rest of the evening, so I don't mind entertaining the ramblings of others for a while longer.

Excuse me, your paraphrasing of my words doesn't seem to come off as a question especially if there's no question mark: 5 hours ago, Shiwiii said: "In your statement here, you make it seem as if it was just imperfect men who got it wrong, and God straightened it out." It was Jesus that formed the church or congregations to go preaching the gospel or good news message. Whether we say church, congregation, Christian society or organization, it means some type of organization was put in place to carry out the work. It was Jesus that gave the command to go preach to all the nations. All Christians have been given the authority and responsibility to speak about God and carry out the work of Jesus. You can read about this commission and authority in the Bible, and about the faithful and discreet slave.

Whatever relationship I have with my mother and my father, God says to honor them both and it would be equally or the same. Honor does not mean I worship my mother and my father. At John 5:23, honor doesn't translate as worship, no matter how many times you imply it does. I gave you one example of the verse in Hebrews as an example of how the word worship can be translated. The majority may not always reflect truth in translation, and sometimes it's best not to always follow the crowd which can lead to the broad road to destruction. Also, I didn't want to overload the forum with scriptures, but I will post a few more examples below: Heb 1:6 Young's Literal Translation - and when again He may bring in the first-born to the world, He saith, 'And let them bow before him -- all messengers of God;' -http://biblehub.com/hebrews/1-6.htm - Hebrews 1:6 Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition (DRA) 6 And again, when he bringeth in the first begotten into the world, he saith: And let all the angels of God adore him. - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hebrews Rev 3:9 Indeed I will make those of the synagogue of Satan, who say they are Jews and are not, but lie——indeed I will make them come and worship before your feet, and to know that I have loved you. KJV Revelation 3:9 New International Version (NIV) 9 I will make those who are of the synagogue of Satan, who claim to be Jews though they are not, but are liars—I will make them come and fall down at your feet and acknowledge that I have loved you.

Corrections to Public Watchtower count: No. 1/2016 Society - 4; Organization - 0 No. 2/2016 Society - 3; Organization - 0

I usually watch the baptisms from my seat, but when I was baptized I clearly heard the brother(s)say before I was submerged, in the name of the Father, son, holy spirit. I never heard anyone say you are baptized in the name of Jehovah's organization. The society does believe they have the truth to show the path to the small cramped road to life to be protected by Jehovah through the time of Armageddon. Being that all religions pretty much say the same or proudly proclaim they are the right way, I've found the only problem is they abhor when JW's say it, which is very hypocritical. Actual deliverance or salvation is only by means of Christ. The society has also admitted to incorrect understandings, which they have never said they were perfect or infallible as other religions have done. I can respect that even though I may not agree with everything. I can agree more with their understanding of scriptures than the churches I attended, so it's not a big point of contention for me although I understand it is for others. The churches I attended taught to defend the country by engaging in war, becoming slaves to pagan traditions and taught me God wanted to burn me forever if I didn't give freely when they passed the collection plate. You also engage in a twisting of words which I find very deceitful. I believe I mentioned any wrongs we've done (or injustice), may God correct us and refine us to do better in the future to try and make amends and continue to carry out the work Jesus gave us to do. Please try to engage in an honest discussion. Actual Quote: " Whatever wrongs we have done or committed, we have to live with as we are not perfect even though people expect us to be, and pray that God corrects and refines us to continue the work Jesus gave us to do and try to correct those wrongs and repair broken trust."