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That's good advice. I really did take a risk in guessing that @Bubba Johnson Jr also had in mind how Brother Splane's "Chart of the Ages" could be related to 1 Thess 5. It turned out that I was right, and that this was not a distraction from the subject matter, but ended up getting right to the heart of the subject matter. To me, the mistake that Russell made with the pyramids also gets exactly to the real heart of the matter. This is why, as a joke, I did something similar with Splane's chart to what Russell claimed he did with the charts of the crisscrossing drains and ducts that were built into the Pyramid. I won't discuss the pyramid topic in full here, but if anyone else is interested in a serious discussion I'm up for it under another topic heading. Your own post was typical. A few things right, a few things wrong, a few WT quotes with unrelated information that you believe defended Russell. You add information that you pretend is not already simple and obvious so that you can call others ignorant and deceptive. Unfortunately, even if you already see where you were wrong, I still have come to expect only more attacks, arrogance, name calling and diversions. If you want anyone to take you seriously, I recommend a method that gives more weight to facts and evidence, rather than just bluster and arrogance.

I hope you know that the ruler I added to the illustration was just a joke, to show how anxious some people are to get any additional information about the timing of the Great Tribulation. The joke is actually based on comments that Russell made, and a related comment here by someone else about how Russell had used just such a method on a rough illustration of the Great Pyramid at Giza. He took the original illustration from C. Piazzi Smyth's book (1864) about the Great Pyramid, and tried to measure various lengths to show where all the prophesied dates in the pyramid landed and finally ended. Most of this was borrowed from Joseph Seiss who had not only done the same thing, but who had "teased" the readers of his book (MIracle in Stone, 1877) by producing an illustration which didn't exactly predict the end date but showed the reader the "known" dates, in an illustration and then tempted the reader with just how easy it would be to see where the dates of the Great Pyramid finally dropped off. He said he wouldn't include that date in the text of his book because it might not be prudent. It was clearly designed to tempt readers to get out a ruler and measure it for themselves. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyramidology#Joseph_A._Seiss C. Piazzi Smyth himself and Seiss, elsewhere, had predicted dates for the end from the 1880's up until the early 1900's as each previous date failed. So my joke was NOT intended to add any further information about what we could know, but only because I agree with Jesus and Paul about the silliness of any such attempts: (Acts 1:7) 7 He said to them: “It does not belong to you to know the times or seasons that the Father has placed in his own jurisdiction. (1 Thessalonians 5:1) . . .Now as for the times and the seasons, brothers, you need nothing to be written to you.

This is true. But then again this will always be true because the end is closer now than at the time we became believers. (Romans 13:11, 12) . . .And do this because you know the season, that it is already the hour for you to awake from sleep, for now our salvation is nearer than at the time when we became believers. 12 The night is well along; the day has drawn near.. . . Since the late 1600's, especially, religions that focus on where we are in terms of chronology and prophecy have claimed we are at the cusp of the Great Tribulation. The Millerite movement apparently produced at least 100,000 people who could be convinced that 1843/1844 was the end. A Millerite named Barbour was able to convince Russell from his updated version of Miller's chronology that Barbour had used to prove 1873/1874 was the end. The Watchtower said that the signs were unmistakable that the last days had begun in 1799 and the Watchtower pointed to heavenly signs in the sun and stars in the early 1800's as proof. The evidence is so overwhelming now, today, that it would seem crazy to deny that we are deep into the last days, and yet we should keep in mind that the evidences seemed just as overwhelming to Miller, Barbour, Russell and others, and probably just as overwhelming to Paul's contemporaries. And we truly HAVE been on the cusp of the Great Tribulation ever since 70 C.E. when the first part of the prophecy about the destruction of Jerusalem was fulfilled. Remember that Jesus said that "immediately after those days, the sun would be darkened" etc. As Peter said, it could be 1,000 years off, and yet we are still to live as if the parousia could be within our lifetime. If we happen to survive to that time, we were on the cusp, and if we happen to die before that time, we were on the cusp, because our next waking second after our death, should be in the resurrection.

Not sure about the reason for bringing this up either, but it's best not to claim that the Watchtower taught no such thing. Curiously, something akin to what JTR has brought up was discussed, but dismissed in a 1902 Watchtower. Note that this first part is about Cain, not Canaan: p.211-212 However, it did not dismiss some other racist notions in the same article, p.215-216: ... ... And one might wonder why Russell's more correct view was dropped under Rutherford, when the Watch Tower published the following in the 1920 Golden Age, page 241: Why praise Jehovah's fixed laws, if there never was a fixed law of God against interracial marriage? Russell had pointed out that even Moses had a "negro" wife In the 1902 Watch Tower article quoted above: In fact, the article you quoted (Melinda) from 1982 points out that the Catholic Church stayed with such a viewpoint until about 1872, but fails to mention that the Watch Tower publications said very similar things until about 1929. (The Watchtower even brought up on a couple of occasions how Jehovah, in the new system, could arrange for black skin to change to white.) *** g82 2/8 p. 15 The Races—What Is Their Origin? *** And for centuries the Catholic Church taught that Negroes were a cursed race. John F. Maxwell states in his book Slavery and the Catholic Church that this view “apparently survived until 1873 when Pope Pius IX attached an indulgence to a prayer for the ‘wretched Ethiopians in Central Africa that almighty God may at length remove the curse of Cham [Ham] from their hearts.’” And, just another idea from Rutherford's time, that the author of the book "Uncle Tom's Cabin" was unduly influenced by evil spirits and the Devil himself in the writing of such a book (which was tremendously successful in promoting abolition, and ultimately helped the black slaves gain freedom): p.140-2 . . . . . . . . .

Wilt Chamberlain seems wiser than Danny DeVito.

I think I can answer the question above under the chart that asks: "How do Jesus's words indicate that we are living deep in the time of the end?" A. Because if we were to look carefully at the chart and notice the scale that was used to indicate the time for each event, we can see that the Great Tribulation breaks out exactly 148 years after 1893, which is the year 2041. Therefore we are living deep in the time of the end.

It's a good question. I think it might be related to the fact that @Bubba Johnson Jr put these verses in his profile along with Brother Splane's updated "Chart of the Ages" that tried to explain the "overlapping groups of Anointed in 'This Generation.' " He posted this chart among the references to the verses above, and it obviously includes THREE GROUPS of anointed: Anointed who saw and discerned the sign in 1914 Anointed who were once contemporaries with those who saw and discerned the sign in 1914 Anointed who were not contemporaries with those who saw and discerned the sign in 1914 It's possible that Bubba hopes to find scriptural support for the THREE GROUPS, marked separately in the chart below. But I don't understand his reasoning, and I hope he will explain. Here is what Bubba posted adjacent to the verses above: Bubba Johnson Jr What are “all these things”? How does Exodus 1:6 help us to understand the meaning of “generation”? To what particular generation was Jesus referring? What two groups make up “this generation”? How do Jesus’ words indicate that we are living deep in the time of the end?

I wanted to see what I might be missing from your point. I assumed that by adding a third point to the above, that you were saying there was a third group of anointed being addressed. So, to figure out where your idea differs, I color-coded the 2 groups above so that I can map them to the persons mentioned in your third group: So, to me, this seems to say: . . . Afterward, we in GROUP 2 will, together with GROUP 1, be caught away in clouds to meet the Lord in the air. . . I still don't see a GROUP 3. Can you explain?

If anyone is interested, I was able to move all the comments that were related to the CAIN topic over to here: https://www.theworldnewsmedia.org/forums/topic/84241-did-cain-marry-his-sister/ Yes, I know it wasn't originally about Cain marrying his sister, but if JTR has a better name for it, I can still change it (I think).

This is currently a placeholder for a topic JTR brought up about Cain. It wasn't really about who he married, but it turned into that topic.

whaaaaaaatttttttt!???

I understand completely.😀 I get kind of carried away when it comes to illustrating a point. Also, I never went to any of those celebrations, although I did work past midnight once on December 31st at 1500 Broadway, not even 500 feet from where the ball drops, and I came over to watch it out the window. "Crazy" people line up for 10 blocks to the north and 10 blocks to the south to see it from either side.

You haven't identified a third group. What you have called a "third" group is really just a comment about the first two groups. In fact, the scenario reminds me of an actual situation that happened when I worked at 1500 Broadway in NYC's Times Square, and a national TV network rented out our huge (warm) conference room on the third floor overlooking the crowds who come to watch a ball drop on New Year's Eve. There would be celebrities coming in to our building, some entertainment, and free food and drink. Some people at this company worked a late shift with the computers (running end of year, end of quarter reports) and they were going to be there when it happened (when the ball dropped). Some people were going home first and then coming back, hopefully, in time to get back into the building. GROUP 1: Those who would go home first before coming back to see the event. GROUP 2: Those who would still be working here at the time of the event. GROUP 3? At the time of the event, it will be New Year's, and those in GROUP 1 and those in GROUP 2 can then both come into the unused side of the conference room at the same time, hoping to meet celebrities, the TV crews, watch the crowds below, etc. As you can see, there is no real GROUP 3 being described. It's just a comment about the situation for those in GROUP 1 and those in GROUP 2. In fact, you can even imagine someone worrying that those who have gone home first might not be back in time for the event and subsequent celebration. You might even be able to imagine that there could be some jealousy that those who were working at the time would have access to the celebration when those who had gone home, might miss out. You could even imagine someone in management saying: Moreover, workers, we want you to know that those who went home already will not miss out on the celebration. They will still be back in time to meet us here. For though most of the roads will be blocked to taxis and cars, still, if we have faith in the subways, and that the guards downstairs will be there to let them in the building, then they will be brought here in time with us. For this is what we tell you, that we the working who remain here until the celebratory event, will in no way precede those who have already gone home; because they are coming back here and will be allowed into the building with their passes. Afterward, we the working who are still working when the event begins, will be allowed into the conference room, together with them at the same time. And we will thus all be in the conference room together. So no one should worry about their fellow workers who will have already gone home first. Keep comforting one another with these words.

That's why they say that those who don't study their history, are doomed to repeat it . . . . in the next semester, or maybe even in summer session.

You're welcome. The persons who run the site made some changes recently that make it harder to navigate, but it probably is better for keeping things organized or implementing better software. But it gets easier.

Part of the problem might be getting your posts into the right section. This forum appears to have places to discuss dozens of topics, and the place for questions such as this might be found more easily if they are in the "Jehovah's Witnesses Open Club." Click on this link first: https://www.theworldnewsmedia.org/clubs/11-jehovah’s-witnesses/ Then click "Join Club" if you haven't already done that. Now whenever you click on one of the topics in that part of the forum you only need to click "Start a New Topic" near the top of any existing topic in that forum. Any new topic you start from there is in the correct forum. Right now you have some of these questions and comments attached to your profile, which most people won't even know are there (unless they are already following you).

I only see "two groups" of anointed here: 1. Those who are sleeping in death at the time the parousia arrives. 2. Those who are still alive when the time for the parousia arrives.

You could read between the lines that something like this was expected to occur from previous Watchtower articles, including the "rapture" discussion: *** w15 7/15 pp. 18-19 pars. 14-17 “Your Deliverance Is Getting Near”! *** It is the time when the remaining ones of the 144,000 will receive their heavenly reward. (1 Thess. 4:15-17; Rev. 14:1) This event will take place at some point after the beginning of the attack by Gog of Magog. (Ezek. 38:11) Then these words of Jesus will be fulfilled: “At that time the righteous ones will shine as brightly as the sun in the Kingdom of their Father.”—Matt. 13:43. 15 Does this mean that there will be a “rapture” of the anointed ones? . . . Therefore, while we do not use the term “rapture” here because of its wrong connotation, the remaining faithful anointed will be gathered together in an instant of time. 16 Once all the 144,000 are in heaven, the final preparations for the marriage of the Lamb can begin. (Rev. 19:9) But something else will happen before that joyous event. Remember, shortly before the remaining ones of the 144,000 are taken to heaven, Gog will attack God’s people. (Ezek. 38:16) What reaction does this provoke? On earth, God’s people will appear to be defenseless. They will obey the instructions given in the days of King Jehoshaphat: “You will not need to fight this battle. Take your position, stand still, and see the salvation of Jehovah in your behalf. O Judah and Jerusalem, do not be afraid or be terrified.” (2 Chron. 20:17) In heaven, however, there is a different reaction. Referring to the time when all the anointed are in heaven, Revelation 17:14 tells us this about the enemies of God’s people: “These will battle with the Lamb, but because he is Lord of lords and King of kings, the Lamb will conquer them. Also, those with him who are called and chosen and faithful will do so.” Together with his 144,000 corulers in heaven, Jesus will come to the rescue of God’s people here on earth. 17 The resulting war of Armageddon *** w15 3/15 p. 29 par. 18 Loyally Supporting Christ’s Brothers *** Before Armageddon breaks out, anointed ones will be taken to heaven. (Matt. 13:41-43 *** w13 11/15 p. 20 Seven Shepherds, Eight Dukes—What They Mean for Us Today *** LESSONS FOR TODAY 16 The prophecy about seven shepherds and eight dukes has its major fulfillment in our day. The citizens of ancient Jerusalem were attacked by the Assyrians. In the near future, Jehovah’s apparently vulnerable people will come under attack from the modern-day “Assyrian,” whose intent will be to wipe them out. The Scriptures refer to that attack as well as the attack of ‘Gog of Magog,’ the attack of “the king of the north,” and the attack of “the kings of the earth.” (Ezek. 38:2, 10-13; Dan. 11:40, 44, 45; Rev. 17:14; 19:19) Do these represent separate attacks? Not necessarily. The Bible could be referring to the same attack under different names. What ‘secret weapon’ does Micah’s prophecy indicate Jehovah would raise up against that implacable foe—“the Assyrian”? A very unlikely one—“seven shepherds, yes, eight dukes”! (Mic. 5:5) The shepherds and dukes (or, “princes,” NEB) in this implausible army are the congregation elders. (1 Pet. 5:2) Today, Jehovah certainly has provided an abundance of spiritual men to shepherd his precious sheep, to strengthen his people for the future attack of the modern-day “Assyrian.” Micah’s prophecy states that they will “shepherd the land of Assyria with the sword.” (Mic. 5:6) Yes, among ‘the weapons of their warfare,’ you will find “the sword of the spirit,” God’s Word.—2 Cor. 10:4; Eph. 6:17. 17 Elders who are reading this article can draw some useful conclusions from the account we have just considered: (1) The most practical step that we can take to prepare for the coming attack of “the Assyrian” is that of strengthening our faith in God and helping our brothers to do the same. (2) When “the Assyrian” attacks, the elders must be absolutely convinced that Jehovah will deliver us. (3) At that time, the life-saving direction that we receive from Jehovah’s organization may not appear practical from a human standpoint. All of us must be ready to obey any instructions we may receive, whether these appear sound from a strategic or human standpoint or not. (4) Now is the time for any who may be putting their trust in secular education, material things, or human institutions to adjust their thinking. The elders must stand ready to help any who may now be wavering in their faith. It's a similar point (in the 2013 article) about the fact that at this time it will be the congregation elders who take the lead. The elders take the lead in the absence of an anointed governing body. Of course, the point being spelled out here is the possibility that some of these elders will probably give direction at a wider level than just for a typical congregation. The possibility of each Branch continuing to operate for their own countries has been implied in statements at conventions, but this is the closest I have seen to implying an entirely new worldwide governing body. But how much we can read into this would depend on things like communications capabilities in the latter days of the great tribulation, or through Armageddon itself if it is an ongoing battle that is not resolved as quickly as some might imagine. The typical scenario that has been dramatized for us is one in which we trust local brothers, elders who have our best interests at heart, to give us direction .

I thought that might be what you meant, but it sounded funny to use the term "anointed" as if it were the equivalent of saying "those who take the lead." That's because so few of the thousands of anointed are known to be taking the lead. But now I see why you included the question with Song 25, because the Governing Body will be among those who will disappear from the earth at some point prior to Armageddon. Perhaps this is preparation for us to begin thinking of accepting capable brothers from among the other sheep to begin taking the lead at higher levels, such as among the Governing Body in the very near future. For example, in 15 years if Armageddon has not arrived, and several members of the current Governing Body do not live that long, there may already be very few qualified anointed persons to choose from. Can we imagine a scenario where there are only two, and then only ONE member of the Governing Body? I believe that very few of the current GB Helpers claim to be anointed. I would agree that the actual, literal point of this article is to prepare us for the idea that there may be a sudden change to a kind of Governing Body made up of only members of the other sheep.

Do you mean the congregation elders?

I knew none of these persons personally, not even R.Franz. I would have been happy to get to know him, but he was very quiet and "low-profile." Which you haven't even attempted yet. Whining and cursing and making up stuff about people because you don't like their opinions isn't the same as refuting them. Then you and I have been the same person several times, if that's what you accept as evidence. Just more diversions. Another diversion. I saw what you wrote to Tom, and that's how I know you weren't even close to being honest, because NOTHING you said was remotely related to anything I posted. Perhaps you had me confused with someone else. It means very little to me if you wish to make up things, or if you are confused. Just as long as you realize that now and then you are going to hear the truth in response. If this affects you negatively, I recommend you try these games with someone else.

I should just point out that this is another type of dishonesty you engage in frequently. Whenever you are asked to point out the place or occasion which induced you to come up with this false claim, you have always changed the subject. You know that I have never made a reference your mother in any way, shape or form. Any further attempt to promote such dishonesty will be met with more honest words from me, no matter how much the truth hurts. 😀

I know them about as well as you know them. Doesn't mean I agree with their conclusions. If someone is serious about their research, I'll take it seriously, too. I called the WTS with questions on several occasions when working through the claims being made by outsiders about the JW era in Hitler's Germany, and both Brother H.Peloyan and Brother J.Pellechia said they didn't know the answers, exactly, but pointed me to a book by M.James Penton, with a reminder that although he answers the questions I had, that this doesn't mean we need to subscribe to all of his conclusions. I agree with them, and appreciated their honesty. I bought Penton's book about Jehovah's Witnesses in the Third Reich specifically on the recommendation of Brother Pellechia. I think you are at least 100 times more "devoted" to everything I say than Anna. I agree with the Watchtower which also has said many times that we should challenge the Watchtower teachings to see if they speak the truth. If you disagree, then you are simply disagreeing with the Watchtower. That should not be a problem to anyone, if you have good Biblical reasons, but in this case the Watchtower agrees with the Bible. If that were true, you should have been able to show me at least one case where I did that. So far, you've shown no evidence of any misrepresentation. Remember, however, that this is about what the Watchtower publications have had to say. I have noticed, for example, that the Watchtower, for a time, confused the end of the Gentile Times with October 1914, then posited dates as late as October 1915, then August 1914, then back to October 1914, and then in the 1920's the Watchtower began presenting material that claimed Russell had made an announcement at Bethel on October 1st, then October 4th, then October 2nd. However, I had never noticed one of the Watchtower quotations that was pictured (in context) in the material that @Noble Berean presented. Where I can learn something, I'm always happy to learn. That's because I recognized instantly that you were flat out wrong about @Matthew9969 being the same as @Noble Berean. There was absolutely no evidence for it and a lot of evidence against it. However, I think I know exactly why you made the mistake in thinking so yourself. If you're interested, I can help you understand. I insinuated exactly the opposite. That this cultish behavior was already generally cleaned up way back in Rutherford's time, with lingering influences from some who never seemed to completely cleanse themselves from the ideologies of that period. All you have to do is point out one of these falsehoods or dishonesties and I will immediately change my mind about it and apologize. As I said, you've had four years of opportunities. I'm sure I've made several mistakes in that time period. (Proverbs 10:19) 19 In the abundance of words there does not fail to be transgression,. . .

Really? Everything possible must be tried in order to make a cult out of the U.S.Marines in as short a time as possible. It includes the idea that they can claim authority from Almighty God, Jehovah. And notice the "Ezekiel" video playing, too. I have a little more respect for the ones who are not participating.

Truth means "the whole truth, and nothing but the truth." Not whitewashed, partial truth, and not just the "spin" that tickles our ears. That's everyone's own business whether they would rather know the whole truth, or ignore the truth, or assume that others can and should prioritize for them what they need to know as "the truth." But, for me, I think we would be hypocrites to sing songs like we just did this last week. (Make the Truth Your Own), the comments on Colossians 2:8, etc., etc. Most of our meetings contain small reminders that we need to "love" truth. It shouldn't matter where it takes us. Actually, it should matter. And it should matter, even more, that some people don't want us to go where it takes us. It's difficult for most of us to admit that the "Watchtower religion" has been a cult in the past. (In the more pejorative sense of the word.) The Watchtower publicly admits that this is true, claiming that many of the Bible Students were cult worshipers of Charles Taze Russell. We know that Rutherford said he determined to rid the Watchtower of the personality cult that worshiped Russell. He called this "creature worship" because they were worshiping a man. But we also know that, for many years, Rutherford himself was part of the same cult, and even bragged in 1916 that Russell's enemies would soon have to come and "worship at his feet." But, in general, I think Rutherford finally did a pretty good job replacing the cult members with persons who were looking for practical Bible truth, and not just for a man to do their thinking for them. But many persons, even Watchtower writers, have confused God and the earthly organization. And, this idea might surprise many, but I think that F.W.Franz gave evidence that he remained as a "cult" member until he died. He loved being seen as the the primary Rabbi --The ORACLE, they called him-- and it went to his head as he tried for his entire career to revive interest in dates, chronology, numerology, Jubilees, new truths (prophetic interpretations), parallel dispensations, the pre-eminence of the truly anointed, etc. I think his influence created cult members out of several ordinary Witnesses. I believe that my great-grandfather (from even before F.Franz was at Bethel) was a "cult" member in the organization until the 1960's when he died, even though my other relatives were (and are) regular JWs, and not cult members. I'm pretty sure that C.Woodworth was a cult member until the 1950's when he died. I know that when they searched out documentation and photos for the Proclaimer's book, they were astounded at the "cult" material still available in Witnesses' archives, including F.Franz himself. And many Witnesses, today, are tempted to look at 8 men exactly the way that Bible Students looked at Russell. The way we defend or dismiss the material from our past history can be an indicator as to whether we too have succumbed to cult thinking. Even the way we defend current material that came out of long-standing traditions of the past can also be an indicator. I can talk to Mormons and Seventh Day Adventists for hours and recognize almost immediately which ones are in a "cult" and which ones aren't by the manner in which they defend Ellen G White or Joseph Smith when glaring problems are pointed out. (Job 31:26-28) 26 If I saw the sun shining Or the moon moving in its splendor; 27 And my heart was secretly enticed, And my mouth kissed my hand in worship of them; 28 Then that would be an error deserving punishment by the judges, For I would have denied the true God above.