JW Insider

whaaaaaaatttttttt!???

I understand completely.😀 I get kind of carried away when it comes to illustrating a point. Also, I never went to any of those celebrations, although I did work past midnight once on December 31st at 1500 Broadway, not even 500 feet from where the ball drops, and I came over to watch it out the window. "Crazy" people line up for 10 blocks to the north and 10 blocks to the south to see it from either side.

You haven't identified a third group. What you have called a "third" group is really just a comment about the first two groups. In fact, the scenario reminds me of an actual situation that happened when I worked at 1500 Broadway in NYC's Times Square, and a national TV network rented out our huge (warm) conference room on the third floor overlooking the crowds who come to watch a ball drop on New Year's Eve. There would be celebrities coming in to our building, some entertainment, and free food and drink. Some people at this company worked a late shift with the computers (running end of year, end of quarter reports) and they were going to be there when it happened (when the ball dropped). Some people were going home first and then coming back, hopefully, in time to get back into the building. GROUP 1: Those who would go home first before coming back to see the event. GROUP 2: Those who would still be working here at the time of the event. GROUP 3? At the time of the event, it will be New Year's, and those in GROUP 1 and those in GROUP 2 can then both come into the unused side of the conference room at the same time, hoping to meet celebrities, the TV crews, watch the crowds below, etc. As you can see, there is no real GROUP 3 being described. It's just a comment about the situation for those in GROUP 1 and those in GROUP 2. In fact, you can even imagine someone worrying that those who have gone home first might not be back in time for the event and subsequent celebration. You might even be able to imagine that there could be some jealousy that those who were working at the time would have access to the celebration when those who had gone home, might miss out. You could even imagine someone in management saying: Moreover, workers, we want you to know that those who went home already will not miss out on the celebration. They will still be back in time to meet us here. For though most of the roads will be blocked to taxis and cars, still, if we have faith in the subways, and that the guards downstairs will be there to let them in the building, then they will be brought here in time with us. For this is what we tell you, that we the working who remain here until the celebratory event, will in no way precede those who have already gone home; because they are coming back here and will be allowed into the building with their passes. Afterward, we the working who are still working when the event begins, will be allowed into the conference room, together with them at the same time. And we will thus all be in the conference room together. So no one should worry about their fellow workers who will have already gone home first. Keep comforting one another with these words.

That's why they say that those who don't study their history, are doomed to repeat it . . . . in the next semester, or maybe even in summer session.

You're welcome. The persons who run the site made some changes recently that make it harder to navigate, but it probably is better for keeping things organized or implementing better software. But it gets easier.

Part of the problem might be getting your posts into the right section. This forum appears to have places to discuss dozens of topics, and the place for questions such as this might be found more easily if they are in the "Jehovah's Witnesses Open Club." Click on this link first: https://www.theworldnewsmedia.org/clubs/11-jehovah’s-witnesses/ Then click "Join Club" if you haven't already done that. Now whenever you click on one of the topics in that part of the forum you only need to click "Start a New Topic" near the top of any existing topic in that forum. Any new topic you start from there is in the correct forum. Right now you have some of these questions and comments attached to your profile, which most people won't even know are there (unless they are already following you).

I only see "two groups" of anointed here: 1. Those who are sleeping in death at the time the parousia arrives. 2. Those who are still alive when the time for the parousia arrives.

You could read between the lines that something like this was expected to occur from previous Watchtower articles, including the "rapture" discussion: *** w15 7/15 pp. 18-19 pars. 14-17 “Your Deliverance Is Getting Near”! *** It is the time when the remaining ones of the 144,000 will receive their heavenly reward. (1 Thess. 4:15-17; Rev. 14:1) This event will take place at some point after the beginning of the attack by Gog of Magog. (Ezek. 38:11) Then these words of Jesus will be fulfilled: “At that time the righteous ones will shine as brightly as the sun in the Kingdom of their Father.”—Matt. 13:43. 15 Does this mean that there will be a “rapture” of the anointed ones? . . . Therefore, while we do not use the term “rapture” here because of its wrong connotation, the remaining faithful anointed will be gathered together in an instant of time. 16 Once all the 144,000 are in heaven, the final preparations for the marriage of the Lamb can begin. (Rev. 19:9) But something else will happen before that joyous event. Remember, shortly before the remaining ones of the 144,000 are taken to heaven, Gog will attack God’s people. (Ezek. 38:16) What reaction does this provoke? On earth, God’s people will appear to be defenseless. They will obey the instructions given in the days of King Jehoshaphat: “You will not need to fight this battle. Take your position, stand still, and see the salvation of Jehovah in your behalf. O Judah and Jerusalem, do not be afraid or be terrified.” (2 Chron. 20:17) In heaven, however, there is a different reaction. Referring to the time when all the anointed are in heaven, Revelation 17:14 tells us this about the enemies of God’s people: “These will battle with the Lamb, but because he is Lord of lords and King of kings, the Lamb will conquer them. Also, those with him who are called and chosen and faithful will do so.” Together with his 144,000 corulers in heaven, Jesus will come to the rescue of God’s people here on earth. 17 The resulting war of Armageddon *** w15 3/15 p. 29 par. 18 Loyally Supporting Christ’s Brothers *** Before Armageddon breaks out, anointed ones will be taken to heaven. (Matt. 13:41-43 *** w13 11/15 p. 20 Seven Shepherds, Eight Dukes—What They Mean for Us Today *** LESSONS FOR TODAY 16 The prophecy about seven shepherds and eight dukes has its major fulfillment in our day. The citizens of ancient Jerusalem were attacked by the Assyrians. In the near future, Jehovah’s apparently vulnerable people will come under attack from the modern-day “Assyrian,” whose intent will be to wipe them out. The Scriptures refer to that attack as well as the attack of ‘Gog of Magog,’ the attack of “the king of the north,” and the attack of “the kings of the earth.” (Ezek. 38:2, 10-13; Dan. 11:40, 44, 45; Rev. 17:14; 19:19) Do these represent separate attacks? Not necessarily. The Bible could be referring to the same attack under different names. What ‘secret weapon’ does Micah’s prophecy indicate Jehovah would raise up against that implacable foe—“the Assyrian”? A very unlikely one—“seven shepherds, yes, eight dukes”! (Mic. 5:5) The shepherds and dukes (or, “princes,” NEB) in this implausible army are the congregation elders. (1 Pet. 5:2) Today, Jehovah certainly has provided an abundance of spiritual men to shepherd his precious sheep, to strengthen his people for the future attack of the modern-day “Assyrian.” Micah’s prophecy states that they will “shepherd the land of Assyria with the sword.” (Mic. 5:6) Yes, among ‘the weapons of their warfare,’ you will find “the sword of the spirit,” God’s Word.—2 Cor. 10:4; Eph. 6:17. 17 Elders who are reading this article can draw some useful conclusions from the account we have just considered: (1) The most practical step that we can take to prepare for the coming attack of “the Assyrian” is that of strengthening our faith in God and helping our brothers to do the same. (2) When “the Assyrian” attacks, the elders must be absolutely convinced that Jehovah will deliver us. (3) At that time, the life-saving direction that we receive from Jehovah’s organization may not appear practical from a human standpoint. All of us must be ready to obey any instructions we may receive, whether these appear sound from a strategic or human standpoint or not. (4) Now is the time for any who may be putting their trust in secular education, material things, or human institutions to adjust their thinking. The elders must stand ready to help any who may now be wavering in their faith. It's a similar point (in the 2013 article) about the fact that at this time it will be the congregation elders who take the lead. The elders take the lead in the absence of an anointed governing body. Of course, the point being spelled out here is the possibility that some of these elders will probably give direction at a wider level than just for a typical congregation. The possibility of each Branch continuing to operate for their own countries has been implied in statements at conventions, but this is the closest I have seen to implying an entirely new worldwide governing body. But how much we can read into this would depend on things like communications capabilities in the latter days of the great tribulation, or through Armageddon itself if it is an ongoing battle that is not resolved as quickly as some might imagine. The typical scenario that has been dramatized for us is one in which we trust local brothers, elders who have our best interests at heart, to give us direction .

I thought that might be what you meant, but it sounded funny to use the term "anointed" as if it were the equivalent of saying "those who take the lead." That's because so few of the thousands of anointed are known to be taking the lead. But now I see why you included the question with Song 25, because the Governing Body will be among those who will disappear from the earth at some point prior to Armageddon. Perhaps this is preparation for us to begin thinking of accepting capable brothers from among the other sheep to begin taking the lead at higher levels, such as among the Governing Body in the very near future. For example, in 15 years if Armageddon has not arrived, and several members of the current Governing Body do not live that long, there may already be very few qualified anointed persons to choose from. Can we imagine a scenario where there are only two, and then only ONE member of the Governing Body? I believe that very few of the current GB Helpers claim to be anointed. I would agree that the actual, literal point of this article is to prepare us for the idea that there may be a sudden change to a kind of Governing Body made up of only members of the other sheep.

Do you mean the congregation elders?

I knew none of these persons personally, not even R.Franz. I would have been happy to get to know him, but he was very quiet and "low-profile." Which you haven't even attempted yet. Whining and cursing and making up stuff about people because you don't like their opinions isn't the same as refuting them. Then you and I have been the same person several times, if that's what you accept as evidence. Just more diversions. Another diversion. I saw what you wrote to Tom, and that's how I know you weren't even close to being honest, because NOTHING you said was remotely related to anything I posted. Perhaps you had me confused with someone else. It means very little to me if you wish to make up things, or if you are confused. Just as long as you realize that now and then you are going to hear the truth in response. If this affects you negatively, I recommend you try these games with someone else.

I should just point out that this is another type of dishonesty you engage in frequently. Whenever you are asked to point out the place or occasion which induced you to come up with this false claim, you have always changed the subject. You know that I have never made a reference your mother in any way, shape or form. Any further attempt to promote such dishonesty will be met with more honest words from me, no matter how much the truth hurts. 😀

I know them about as well as you know them. Doesn't mean I agree with their conclusions. If someone is serious about their research, I'll take it seriously, too. I called the WTS with questions on several occasions when working through the claims being made by outsiders about the JW era in Hitler's Germany, and both Brother H.Peloyan and Brother J.Pellechia said they didn't know the answers, exactly, but pointed me to a book by M.James Penton, with a reminder that although he answers the questions I had, that this doesn't mean we need to subscribe to all of his conclusions. I agree with them, and appreciated their honesty. I bought Penton's book about Jehovah's Witnesses in the Third Reich specifically on the recommendation of Brother Pellechia. I think you are at least 100 times more "devoted" to everything I say than Anna. I agree with the Watchtower which also has said many times that we should challenge the Watchtower teachings to see if they speak the truth. If you disagree, then you are simply disagreeing with the Watchtower. That should not be a problem to anyone, if you have good Biblical reasons, but in this case the Watchtower agrees with the Bible. If that were true, you should have been able to show me at least one case where I did that. So far, you've shown no evidence of any misrepresentation. Remember, however, that this is about what the Watchtower publications have had to say. I have noticed, for example, that the Watchtower, for a time, confused the end of the Gentile Times with October 1914, then posited dates as late as October 1915, then August 1914, then back to October 1914, and then in the 1920's the Watchtower began presenting material that claimed Russell had made an announcement at Bethel on October 1st, then October 4th, then October 2nd. However, I had never noticed one of the Watchtower quotations that was pictured (in context) in the material that @Noble Berean presented. Where I can learn something, I'm always happy to learn. That's because I recognized instantly that you were flat out wrong about @Matthew9969 being the same as @Noble Berean. There was absolutely no evidence for it and a lot of evidence against it. However, I think I know exactly why you made the mistake in thinking so yourself. If you're interested, I can help you understand. I insinuated exactly the opposite. That this cultish behavior was already generally cleaned up way back in Rutherford's time, with lingering influences from some who never seemed to completely cleanse themselves from the ideologies of that period. All you have to do is point out one of these falsehoods or dishonesties and I will immediately change my mind about it and apologize. As I said, you've had four years of opportunities. I'm sure I've made several mistakes in that time period. (Proverbs 10:19) 19 In the abundance of words there does not fail to be transgression,. . .

Really? Everything possible must be tried in order to make a cult out of the U.S.Marines in as short a time as possible. It includes the idea that they can claim authority from Almighty God, Jehovah. And notice the "Ezekiel" video playing, too. I have a little more respect for the ones who are not participating.

Truth means "the whole truth, and nothing but the truth." Not whitewashed, partial truth, and not just the "spin" that tickles our ears. That's everyone's own business whether they would rather know the whole truth, or ignore the truth, or assume that others can and should prioritize for them what they need to know as "the truth." But, for me, I think we would be hypocrites to sing songs like we just did this last week. (Make the Truth Your Own), the comments on Colossians 2:8, etc., etc. Most of our meetings contain small reminders that we need to "love" truth. It shouldn't matter where it takes us. Actually, it should matter. And it should matter, even more, that some people don't want us to go where it takes us. It's difficult for most of us to admit that the "Watchtower religion" has been a cult in the past. (In the more pejorative sense of the word.) The Watchtower publicly admits that this is true, claiming that many of the Bible Students were cult worshipers of Charles Taze Russell. We know that Rutherford said he determined to rid the Watchtower of the personality cult that worshiped Russell. He called this "creature worship" because they were worshiping a man. But we also know that, for many years, Rutherford himself was part of the same cult, and even bragged in 1916 that Russell's enemies would soon have to come and "worship at his feet." But, in general, I think Rutherford finally did a pretty good job replacing the cult members with persons who were looking for practical Bible truth, and not just for a man to do their thinking for them. But many persons, even Watchtower writers, have confused God and the earthly organization. And, this idea might surprise many, but I think that F.W.Franz gave evidence that he remained as a "cult" member until he died. He loved being seen as the the primary Rabbi --The ORACLE, they called him-- and it went to his head as he tried for his entire career to revive interest in dates, chronology, numerology, Jubilees, new truths (prophetic interpretations), parallel dispensations, the pre-eminence of the truly anointed, etc. I think his influence created cult members out of several ordinary Witnesses. I believe that my great-grandfather (from even before F.Franz was at Bethel) was a "cult" member in the organization until the 1960's when he died, even though my other relatives were (and are) regular JWs, and not cult members. I'm pretty sure that C.Woodworth was a cult member until the 1950's when he died. I know that when they searched out documentation and photos for the Proclaimer's book, they were astounded at the "cult" material still available in Witnesses' archives, including F.Franz himself. And many Witnesses, today, are tempted to look at 8 men exactly the way that Bible Students looked at Russell. The way we defend or dismiss the material from our past history can be an indicator as to whether we too have succumbed to cult thinking. Even the way we defend current material that came out of long-standing traditions of the past can also be an indicator. I can talk to Mormons and Seventh Day Adventists for hours and recognize almost immediately which ones are in a "cult" and which ones aren't by the manner in which they defend Ellen G White or Joseph Smith when glaring problems are pointed out. (Job 31:26-28) 26 If I saw the sun shining Or the moon moving in its splendor; 27 And my heart was secretly enticed, And my mouth kissed my hand in worship of them; 28 Then that would be an error deserving punishment by the judges, For I would have denied the true God above.

I appear to be behind the times here. Mike & Kim I know of from a video I watched of them on YouTube, where they seemed a bit too silly and flippant (perhaps even tipsy?). But their information was lousy, and they were promoting this idea that elders were destroying necessary CSA evidence, when they were really misinterpreting "good practice" counsel from the WTS about record-keeping. Maybe they have done their homework on other videos, but I won't waste my time because I don't trust them based on the random one I watched. P. Asare I have never heard of. John Redwood is related to John Cedars, who is somehow related to Lloyd Evans, as I saw these names on JW Survey. I downloaded that site to read later, but I did read all the headlines from the site, just never got back to it. Average Joe I have never heard of. Bill Bowen is the former elder who put his face behind "Silent Lambs" which intended to expose CSA crimes among JWs. I understand that Barbara Anderson worked with him to get it started and get it named but that Barbara Anderson didn't trust his motives or his personality and backed away from it. (I have read much of Anderson's site, and the name comes up often when I search Google on several different historical and CSA topics.) WiFiBandit sounds very familiar but I do not know from where. (I suspect this is a Jehovahs-Witness forum participant. I don't care much about the work of most ex-JWs for purposes of testing their claims, or defense against their claims, unless I'm convinced that they have done their homework, and are not prone to taking things out of context. For this reason, I have purchased 2 books from M.J.Penton, 1 from C.O.Jonnson, and 2 from E.C.Gruss. (I also have two books from R.Franz that I picked up online as free pdfs. I also picked up a book called Apostles of Denial from archive.org, which is also from E.C.Gruss.) Otherwise, I pretty much ignore current online sources because I think they tend to get their info from other sources anyway, and misinterpret or misrepresent what they said. For this reason I won't bother with those who don't do their own work, when it comes to claims we should test for ourselves. Compared to people who appear to have gone to original sources and documented their work, I'd guess that most of these online personalities are probably just repeating things. Any of them, including the authors I mentioned, might also have had bad motives. We should expect that this taints their own conclusions. But it's worth looking at their work, especially if a lot of it is true, regardless of their own motives or conclusions. Perhaps we'll look at the same evidence and come to a different conclusion.

At first I thought it was N.B., but I agree that this seems to be part of a much larger collection of anti-JW material. But you are right, it appears to be all JW material that is used in the 01.Read First; 02.Generation; and 03.LightBrighter files. I haven't seen the other files yet. The arguments may take things to an excessive conclusion, based on added marginal notes, but all this is still a REAL part of the history of the organization that should be understood correctly. We do take pride in the history of our organization, and an honest person would never leave out this information, even if our explanation for it is more generous than we might expect from ex-JWs. For some, ignorance is bliss, or at least preferable to knowing these things. But a fully honest Witness will want to know what really happened and what others might think of these issues, and prepare for any possible question that might come up based on these issues. (1 Pet 3:15) Some of these references are fairly recent, so it must be someone who was an active ex-JW recently. Perhaps N.B. knows, or it could be discovered through a search of the large JW discussion group. I make it a point not to visit there because there is too much real hatred of JWs, elders, GB. There is some of that here, but manageable in the sense that you can keep track of the few names who offer very little more than just repetitious hatred of everything related to the organization. It's easier to pick and choose over here, and know what to expect from each participant. I'm interested in who this was, however, if anyone else already knows or wishes to search it out. Otherwise, I'll try to figure it out. (As of tomorrow, I'm out for over a week, again.)

In many halls the very library itself can no longer be found. So there are no older books, just a shelf for current (but used) Bibles and Songbooks that folks left accidentally. But it's true that the out of print books are not banned. Just harder to find, such as Aid to Bible Understanding and Commentary on the Letter of James. But if it were not well known which writer wrote a specific book, and it usually isn't, then there was no need to remove those books. The need to replace the Aid book with Insight began in a hurry after R.Franz became known as the head writer, through his own admission in Crisis of Conscience, but most the entries are still exactly verbatim what was in the Aid book. But they still haven't replaced "Choosing the Best Way of Life" and it's still available on the Watchtower Library CD, and wol.jw.org. There are books that make us cringe, and those who ask specific questions about anything prior to 1970 will probably be looked at as if they are losing faith in the organization. Don't try to ask if anyone knows of anything still good in the Finished Mystery book, for example. There is still a lot of good information in some of the books and magazines prior to 1970, but most anything useful has been repeated, or updated/corrected in more recent books and magazines. Also, I have some memos I was going to share here once that showed that in assigning topics, the head of Writing had a kind of rule that every topic would be revisited before 20 years were up. So if a topic hadn't been touched in a while, you might at least see it updated, for example, in 1939, 1958, 1977 (and 1996, 2015 if they still kept the "policy" going). A couple of big changes that make a lot of books up to even 2000 obsolete is the fact that we no longer make a prophecy out of parables and narrative portions of the Bible. This doesn't make the good counsel obsolete, but usually it means that this counsel now applies to everybody, not just a specific class. (i.e., Shulammite class, Haman class, Esther class, Elijah class, Elisha class, Ruth class, Naomi class, Jehu class, Jezebel class, Jeremiah class, Jonadab class, Samaritan class, Prodigal Son's Brother's class, etc.)

What you are saying in this portion is mostly true.

I think the flattened note is easier to pick out in a song like the following, which is not a kingdom song. It's called "Sailor's Hornpipe" I think, and it was made famous in the Popeye cartoons in the 1960's. Here it comes up once in the intro, and once in the Popeye part. I slow it down just before the flattened note to make it easier to pick out. New Recording 252.m4a

Just because a simple "C" harmonica doesn't have sharps and flats doesn't mean you can't play songs outside the key of C. For one thing you can get harmonicas pre-tuned to every key. But even if you just use a "C" harmonica, you can also play any song in the songbook by just playing it in "C." For example, song number 6 (The Heavens Declare God's Glory) is in E-flat. But you don't even have to think about transposing in any technical sense. You just play C for every place that the song plays an E-flat, and the rest of the notes fall into place because ALL scales sound similar no matter what note they start on. That's because every scale has a first note, then skips a whole step for the second note, another whole step for the third note, a half step more for the fourth note, and whole steps again for the fifth, sixth and seventh. And that seventh note ends up a half step behind the starting note again. That's always going to be true whether you are playing in G, F, A-flat, G-sharp, B-flat, etc. The only thing that changes is what note you started on. But even when playing in another scale, there are often notes in a song that are not a part of that scale. These are sometimes called "accidentals." If you look at song #6 again, you'll see the "accidental" in the last row, just above the "pro-" of "pro-claims." Only the top note in that line is the melody (B-flat) and it has a little symbol next to it that means "natural." Normally every note on the B line in this key is going to be played as a B-flat, because that's just a standard part of playing in the key of E-flat, and you can look way over to the left of this line and see 3 flat symbols. But on this particular note the "natural" means NOT to play it as a flat but play it as a "natural" B. It turns out there is a way to do this on a simple harmonica. If you purse your lips and draw air in at a steady rate, but fairly strong, it will draw down the note a half step or so. If you do this a lot on the same harmonica, it gets easier. You can even draw down a note while blowing out, but that's a little harder to get it a full half-step down. I'll play a quick (sloppy) version of the song on a simple harmonica, and if you listen, you can hear where I paused just a bit to pulled the air a little bit stronger to draw down the note a bit and then let it slip back up to get the next note. New Recording 249.m4a

You make it appear that you have rather disgusting set of worldly values. I don't know if that was intentional though. This also gives the appearance that you filter your thoughts through set of disgusting worldly values. Although the scribd link is down, you can find this article here: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15261004 Here is the quoted abstract: The review examines whether unsolicited or non-consensual sexual stimulation of either females or males can lead to unwanted sexual arousal or even to orgasm. The conclusion is that such scenarios can occur and that the induction of arousal and orgasm does not indicate that the subjects consented to the stimulation. A perpetrator's defence simply built upon the fact that evidence of genital arousal or orgasm proves consent has no intrinsic validity and should be disregarded. I guess I shouldn't be surprised based on your past "longing" to live in places like Sodom and Gomorrah.

Wow. As a kid we used to make spinning tops at my father's electronics lab, because he had lots of scrap equipment and tools to play with. We never knew why a perfectly good spinning top would completely flip over and keep spinning on the other side after a small wobble that didn't appear to change the center of gravity. Kinetic forces tied to angular momentum were a bit beyond me. I do remember our best model was a very large solid metal plate about three feet across, with a small 'bb' or ball bearing that we soldered to its exact center. We would then spin the plate with only the ball bearing touching the polished marble floor, and it could spin for nearly an hour. (And no chance of it flipping over.)

Represents an awful lot of work. Thanks.

A lot of material in there. This came up as "03. Light Brighter Part A.PDF." Are we to assume there is also a Part B? or even Part C? I notice that there is also mention of a "1925 folder" and that "03." implies more parts, too. Are these also shareable? Privately if not publicly?