Arauna

If I give an illustration - it is to get a point across..... I do not expect a person to apply every minute detail to such a degree that the illustration is no longer relevant and loses its power.... that is nitpicking.   Similarly, I do not understand what you are trying to say -  because you are trying to see things that are not there  so you can refute the "beasty" time of Nebuchadnezzar to not be compared with gentile times..... but you are finding obscure things to reason upon.

I think it is shortsighted of you that you cannot see a correlation.   It fits in perfectly with the central theme of the bible (which is about human rule versus direct sovereignty by god) and it also fits into a perfect timeline ..... but I guess you have never thought of it that way...  

Ephesians 1:8-10New King James Version (NKJV)

⁸ which He made to abound toward us in all wisdom and prudence, ⁹ having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself, ¹⁰ that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both^[a] which are in heaven and which are on earth—in Him.

Dictionary: NW translation uses the word - administration.... managing his purpose throughout the ages....

Dispensation

(Gr. oikonomia, "management," "economy").

• The method or scheme according to which God carries out his purposes towards men is called a dispensation. There are usually reckoned three dispensations, the Patriarchal, the Mosaic or Jewish, and the Christian. (See COVENANT, Administration of in Insight of Scriptures.) There were so many stages in God's unfolding of his purpose of grace toward men. The word is not found with this meaning in Scripture.

I see the purpose unfolding in a timeline throughout the ages - just a few mentioned below....

• 4026 B.C.E. Adam created

• 1943 B.C.E. Abrahamic covenant validated

• 1513 B.C.E. Israelites leave Egypt

• 1513 B.C.E. Mosaic Law covenant -

• 1512 B.C.E. Tabernacle completed

• 1473 B.C.E. Israel enters Canaan - united under one God

• 1467 B.C.E. Major conquest of the land completed

• 1467 B.C.E. Tribes receive land after conquest

• 1117 B.C.E. Saul anointed as king

• 1026 B.C.E. Temple inaugurated

• 1077-1038 B.C.E. David’s reign

• c. 1070 B.C.E. Davidic covenant

• 1037-998 B.C.E. Solomon’s reign

• 607 B.C.E. Babylon destroys Jerusalem

• Jehovah uses Nebuchadnezzar to predict the next 5 world powers - to understand timeline and to recognize the powers as they come on the world scene.

• Daniel: 70 week prophesy indicating when Jesus would arrive and how he would be cut off - (central part of the purpose of God ) and how the gentiles would later be included)

• Gentile times and prophesy about the time when Jesus would receive his future kingship - given before the birth of the Christ.  He would not receive an earthly Kingdom but would take up rule in heaven - " my kingdom no part of this world"

• 2 B.C.E. Birth of Jesus

• Jesus gives last days prophecies of Jewish system and indicates that it would have a greater fulfillment.

• 33 C.E. Death of Jesus -

• 33 C.E. Outpouring of holy spirit Pentecost

• Paul explains to Hebrews how Jesus fulfilled the law and how he is the Passover lamb.

• John completes the Bible and give us indication of 1000 year reign and how the government will function. Events in the final days before the final destruction. Events after the destruction....

From earliest times of man - the Bible states that the “luminaries in the expanse of the heavens” were to serve in making “a division between the day and the night; and . . . as signs and for seasons and for days and years.” (Ge 1:14, 15; Ps 104:19) Human reckoning and recording of time periods has continued from Adam’s day till the present hour.—Ge 5:1, 3-5.  

After the flood - most pagan cultures kept extremely busy with record keeping of the position of the stars, the sun and moon (birth of Zodiac and mathematical calculations of the stars) - and advanced measurements of time in Sumer and Egypt and many other cultures.  (360 degrees come from ancient Sumer, 60 minutes in an hour, 365 days in a sun-year.  

Towers/ziggurats  were viewed as gateways to the heavens for the soul to traverse on a journey through the stars after death.  Many pyramids have passageways with exact dimensions of the earth in relation to positions to certain stars.... in many cultures all over the earth this is the case.  Ancient cultures on earth calculated an built towers to the gods in similar way with dimensions depicting the stars.

• If the rest of mankind was so busy calculating time - why would god keep his own people backward?  Would it not be logical that he would give them a few prophecies regarding important steps in his purpose so they could realize that his purpose is moving forward? .... This could give them more faith... especially as the final days of this system is drawing closer.

I do not confuse gentile rule with messianic rule. The period that the tree was stumped  depicts Nebuchadnezzar's rule (gentile rule) and when the band is removed it depicts the Messianic rule when Jehovah gives the rulership to Jesus at the end of the gentile times - Jesus is the one who has the right to the throne...

To reply to Holly -  Jehovah chose the slave after 1914 - not because they were perfect and had everything right. He chose them because he could work with them.... But as Malachi 3 indicates - they went through a difficult period of cleansing because they were not completely acceptable to Jehovah - the unclean state they were in. 

When the organization uses pictures of Russell it is because of the "historic" nature of our history.  This is part of our history (something that is past) so we acknowledge the past - but most of our teachings have moved on since then and new light has been shed on many things.  So he is part of our history - not a cult figure. 

If I was an opera star 40 years ago -  and there are pictures of me in a newspaper now.... people will understand that this is part of my history - but I do not sing as beautiful as I did at that time.  So if there are any recordings available - then I can listen to it as part of history - to use this as an illustration.   I often listen to Caruso, Callas and many of these artists and compare their performances with the new ones offered today.... so I see it in its historical context.  But I also realize that these artists are "dead" and cannot contribute any more to society.  Similarly - Russell has been dead 100 years - so all of us understand that he cannot contribute any more to new thoughts on the Bible. He is  part of our "history"..  So it is in this context that our new publications have references to him.

Thank you dear brother for the above.   I always remember 1 Cor 1: ²⁶ For you see your calling, brethren, that not many wise according to the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called. ²⁷ But God has chosen the foolish things of the world to put to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to put to shame the things which are mighty; ²⁸ and the base things of the world and the things which are despised God has chosen, and the things which are not, to bring to nothing the things that are, ²⁹ that no flesh should glory in His presence. (also read verse 20 - 25)

Satan developed an ego - and thought he could do things better than god.... ... Adam and Eve chose independence - which is also related to ego.  One can (as you quoted above) trace all problems that people have to this one problem - ego and subsequent independent thinking.   Yes, I have to watch myself on this.....

Whenever there are problems between people - one can trace it to the root cause : independent thinking, ego and hence non-cooperation in some way.  May humility before Jehovah safeguard us all.  When we serve others and show self-sacrificing love it is harder to be prideful and egotistical but with our inclination to independence (treacherous hearts) we musty constantly measure ourselves by reading the words of Jehovah...and stay in Jehovah's love - and not move away....

I have seen so many precedents in the Bible where Jehovah instructed people to act out certain events to portray an actual event that would take place in future.   When Abraham offered up Isaac it was a future portrayal of the willing ransom sacrifice of Jesus.  Isaac was young and could have pushed his old father away.  The aversion we feel when we read this event is actually the aversion that Jehovah felt when he had to allow the offering up of his son and go the full way. Abraham was fortunate - he did not have to go the full way.   The physical temple was also a picture of the future events as were all the Jewish festivals.  All have specific meaning for us today - a greater fulfillment 

There is the incident where a prophet had to marry a harlot and produce children - to demonstrate how Jehovah felt about Israel and their future.  There is another incident where a prophet had to lie on one side for a particular number of days and then again on the other.... this was in literal obedience of what Jehovah ordered him to do - and fellow country men would have noticed it and commented on it..... and the word spread.... So it was a picture of how Jehovah felt and what he would do.  These prophets could not have obeyed these instructions fully if they did not receive help from Jehovah to maintain what they were doing.

Believe me - Jehovah - does NOTHING if it does not serve a purpose.  He is logic and his thoughts are way above ours.... and if we meditate upon it we see how it fits in with everything else.  My name for instance - a family name from 18th century- comes from the place where Isaac was offered up on mount Moriah (next to Zion).  Later on this ground belonged to a Jebusite, named Araunah. Jehovah ordered David to buy this ground on the mount from Araunah/Ornan... and later the temple of Solomon was built on this exact same site.  This demonstrates the consistency of Jehovah - that the same place Abraham offered up Isaac, became the same place where the temple was built... and now an Islam dome is built on the rock so the Jews cannot rebuild the temple...  to fulfill prophesy.... This is "physical" proof that the temple and its way of worship is no longer valid to Jehovah. Jesus predicted its destruction and when Jesus died - the physical curtain to the most holy tore open.  These are all 'physical' things that happened which were related to each other even though they were thousands of years apart -  and prove the consistency of Jehovah in fulfilling certain events. Small details that people do not notice until they look at it closely.

Jehovah in some cases also used foreigners to do his will.   Cyrus the Great was an anointed person to do the will of Jehovah..(predicted 200 years ahead of time). Thereafter Cyrus went on with his wars and was killed by a woman warrior. 

The gentile times being portrayed by a very proud 'pagan' ruler who became 'beastly' is a good way to describe beastly rule - especially if one reads the scriptures in Daniel and realizes that it is all about the right of Jehovah to give the power to whom he chooses - and of course we know that Jesus is the ultimate one who has the "right to the throne" that Jehovah will give him. 

One realizes that there is more to these events than meets the eye.  In Nebuchadnezzar's day, most kings in ancient times were paranoid because they could not hold onto their thrones.  History is full of rulers who killed their own sons or family because of challenges to the throne. Both Harrods did this (Antipas and the Great) and Sennacherib was murdered by his sons.  

Nebuchadnezzar would not have lasted off the throne for 7 years if Jehovah did not protect his throne for him in this "beasty" time... and as the scripture indicates - Jehovah gives the throne to whom he pleases.  Nebuchadnezzar and his children were totally vulnerable in this time as well as his wife.  Neriglissar - 2nd successor after Nebuchadnezzar -  was found in a fountain - murdered.  (Jehovah is the one who allows for rulership) 

What was the purpose of giving a pagan king this lesson and have it written for us in the Bible? To teach humiliation by Jehovah?  Or that Jehovah is the one the preserves and he can give the rulership to whom he wants.   He allows pagan rulers to rule... but when the time comes for his choice to come on the throne - no one will stop him...... It was written down for our benefit- to serve a purpose for Jehovah's faithful followers. Was it not for the reason that his people would later investigate (Daniel 12 ) in "end of the days" and understand what it was all about? 

The time has come - those who search - will find....

I see the debate still going on.  Frankly - I think people should not care much about what one person (Russell) believed or if he had the date correct about the "times of the nations".  We should not be making a cultish adherence to any person even if he proved to be an "infant" - at a starting point of something that would grow large in the good fruit it produces.

As the point in the comment above demonstrates - Russell and his friends started looking into it at this time (many study groups did) - and in line with the new 'scientific' field of archeology - they thought there was something in the pyramids - like everyone else!  So as I said before ... why debate about unimportant things.... We must evaluate everything said by Russell within the time period it occurred.  We now  understand the "times of the gentiles" and it was only AFTER 1919 that Jehovah appointed this group of people for the work they are now doing world-wide: the life-saving preaching work....  They have a job to do.... and they are presently doing it to the best of their ability. Jehovah gives imperfect people the opportunity to demonstrate their love for Him.  He gives us dignity through this work!

I appreciate the sincere comment of the JW insider above and the careful way you have put down your ideas.... I however wish to mention:  My faith is NOT a blind faith because I am not just prepared to believe what the "slave" tells me.   I have looked and "thought" it through carefully and I have come to the conclusion that they are being used by Jehovah.

Each one must "identify" the slave class for themselves.  This is why the question is asked in Matt 24: "WHO is the faithful and discreet slave."  

The timelines the JWs use, is not the reason I believe that the slave is teaching the truth....there are too many other things that are absolutely correct... but the fact that Jehovah has made many timelines available throughout the Bible can strengthen our faith tremendously.  How the timeline fits in with what is happening in the world today and how the many timelines are fitting into the 'overall universal project of the restoration of peace in heaven and on earth" under the reign of Jesus - the chief agent appointed by Jehovah to do this.

The final part of the timeline will soon come - the destruction of the wicked - the marriage of the lamb - and 1000 years judgment day.  Humans have had thousands of years to rule the earth independently from God .... but Jehovah is going to restore 'everything' in only 1000 years under the reign of Jesus - to bring all his promises to a complete 'reality'.  The timelines given have made his promises a "reality" for me.... and I understand the reason why he gave them.

I urge all my fellow witnesses to study the prophecies and do the same - not just debate Matthew and Luke....

Useless debates:  Cut and paste, cut and paste - reminds me of some of the school and adult debates I've seen here in America.  People are "trained" in this form of debate in the school system and do not know any better... and I do not say this with distain - I have noticed this in all of American society - even in the work place - it is a form of social conformity. They "expect you to conform to this way of talking about a subject...  One does not think about the positive points in the opponents discussion - one just hones in on the points that you don't like - no matter how logical they may be - because if you can score a point only for a moment - then you are a winner!!!  America is full of these winners who cannot think for themselves... The justice system is a good example.... it is not about what is justice or injustice  - it is about winning a case - even if the person really perpetrated the crime.... many examples of this.  

People each get time to give their opinions and not really consider what the opponent is really saying..  and then people get to choose.  This is why American politics is in such a mess - same system - where the louder more aggressive person (and the one who appears to win the points for the present moment) walks away with the prize.  People do not really "think" about things....it is about scoring points ... It is not about what is really right or wrong.... it is about the supremacy....   

I have read articles before that show that clean water could in future reach the price of gold... Mankind is mismanaging fresh water... and climate change is accelerating the problems in dry countries.  And some people do not perceive that we are reaching the time of the "end"?  God will have to step into mankind's affairs to save us from ourselves.

The suicide rate in India is very high.... people losing property that have been in their family possession for hundreds of years.

Some advances sound gruesome..... even though it is a dead rat..... Hope no scientist gets the idea to do this on living things...because some scientists are already participating in practices that are beyond ethics.

Politics are crazy these days!  But not unpredictable.... Whomever has the responsibility of president is going to face a much more complicated international and national arena than say 8 years ago.

The theistic ones who believe in evolution are definitely not adherents of the Bible....the Bible clearly shows that god made the first human pair complete and functioning....they did not start of as a pig.... (see my top quote about human flesh).  One cannot equate adaption to the environment as evolution.  Darwin's finches - were still finches...the species did not change...only the beaks did.... 

Ann -- cut paste, cut paste - quoting things out of context.  It seems you get your adrenalin rush by this kind of troll behavior... Russell did not understand everything we understand today....and even if he changed it? So what?  We have proof today of the date of 1914 and guess what - the times of the nations -  it checks out!  

What Russell said was more than 130 years ago - see his work in its time context - in its historical context...  What is your interest in the 'toddler period' of this religion? .....when you do not believe in the Bible or an existing god? Why waste people's time and troll them if it is not for some ungodly purpose?....

Do not throw your pearls to pigs.. why? because they will not appreciate them...   You have no intention of evaluating any of the  "pearls' scattered in your direction....  so I think we leave this subject now..... you do as you please.  At least you will one day "know" that you had more than enough opportunities.  As Joshua said:  "as for me and my household - we will serve Jehovah..".. and he also said (an I quote from memory) "Not one of Jehovah's promises did not come true......."  I leave you with this final thought.... 

I recently read another study which showed that the effects of Zika are worse in socio-economically deprived locations...... it seems it could be a combination of bad nutrition and mosquito infections which makes the outcome worse... ... 

Label people - and you can dismiss their ideas.  You may label us as part of the creationists so you can dismiss us as 'the same' but we do not lump ourselves together with people who believe the creation was completed in 24 hour days.

These days science and atheism can be regarded as religions.  I define religion as the personal search for truth and reality, and the influence a person’s conclusion will have on their perspective regarding their own life, and in consequence, influencing personal values regarding one’s own and all other life.

The physical universe: I have read enough to know that previously accepted scientific facts have been proven inaccurate because of new ‘light or progress’ on a matter. New ideas are only accepted as accurate science when there is general consensus amongst peers that the calculations and scientific methods used were without flaw or can be reproduced.  

So, let’s face up to this fundamental truth: there is an unfathomable complexity of things at the minute level as well as the infinite (add to that - the dimensions of time and space as well as our own mortality), and this creates a situation where many theories are impossible to test or reproduce to a measurable level where one finds a 'true reality' without any serious unexplained mysteries still lurking in the dark shadows.

Even where there is consensus amongst the learned, there are ample precedents which indicate that there may be gremlin-like flaws in reasoning, mathematics or chemistry which, at this point in time, are still undetected.

And the same for Darwinism.... blind faith in exponential numbers of correct choices "miracles" that happened by 'random chance'.

On the other hand the Bible gives us a way of life (ideology/philosophy) which has the possibility to unite all of mankind and restore the earth. If it is followed by all on earth - this outcome could be a reality...  It tells us that there is a creator and he cares for us and then gives us prophecies and a time-line to prove that he exists - and we can calculate that his plan is moving forward - as discussed above....  it is a better reality than a bunch of theories which have become like a blind religion which does not offer any future - especially, when one looks at the world and understands that most of the problems have been created by science!! ... Atom bombs, all kinds of weapons,  poisons ..... the list goes on ... regarding  the number of destructive man-made innovations wrought on the earth.....by very imperfect scientists... and some people really believe blindly that they will be the heroes and will find the solution for our problems....

Creationists believe the 6 days were 24 hour days.  As I showed earlier - we believe these days were periods of time...because all 6 creative days are referred to as "a day" in the Bible.  This is a major difference.  For people who are so nit-picky on small details of the ancient history of Russell -  you are pretty neglectful when it comes to attention to these kind of details.

This is why I study timelines and events in the Bible - to see how the event fits in with the final purpose of God  - the theme that is intrinsically running throughout the Bible.  Remember I said (somewhere above) that the Bible is the history, as well as a plan, of how God is putting things in place to eventually restore the earth to its original condition before Adam sinned? Slowly but surely God has, through the past millennia, been working/unfolding this (I call it the restoration project).  And he gave us an excellent timeline.  He even indicates how many world empires would rule if one studies Daniel and Revelation together.

Nevertheless, God is allowing man to rule the earth to prove that we cannot rule the earth - but he only steps into mankind's affairs when his project to restore the earth, at the end of Satan's rule, is jeopardized.   The flood was one of these times.  There was rebellion on earth and in the heavens (angels).   Wicked angels down came to earth in disobedience and with wives, produced a hybrid race of children that would jeopardize the purpose of God.  There was a mixture of genetics.

How is this disastrous?  Well we all know that when totally different species mix, the children's children become infertile. A good example is the mule.  It was God's will to still fill the earth with humans (not with a mixed breed of highly violent beings - Nephilim means: fellers of men).  It was his purpose, that at the end of his 7th day (his rest day), for the earth will be filled with people who (most will be resurrected) will truly benefit from Christ's ransom sacrifice.

This would mean that these bad angels had to be flushed out - and this event would also serve as a warning for future generations.  Can one flush out a materialized, wicked angel, with a local flood? I would say .... no.  After the flood - these wicked angels were put in Tartarus.... they could not materialize again. 

The earth was flatter than it is at present, that is, before the flood.  Many huge underwater cities exist all over the world that come from a pre-flood period.  We find that many of the highest mountain peaks contain shells and fish.  Boulders sit on high mountains that seem to have been placed there from another location. Patterns of boulders often attributed to glaciers could be from powerful water..... (There are so many geological features that one can attribute to a mighty flood - but alas!  I forgot, scientists are not allowed to believe in the Bible. This would take away their credulity.  They can rather believe in the exponential miracles and fairy stories which are presented in evolution - or as famous DR. Dawkins (the high priest of the faith of evolution) said: beings from another planet seeded life on earth.) 

Take one bucket of water and feel how heavy it is. .... now apply this weight to the amount of water which was on the earth during the flood.  The water band above the heavens broke and the bible says that water "under" the earth also came out. This water was so heavy it pushed up mountains and made very deep valleys - even in the sea. There must have been many plates under the earth that moved from the water pressure.  The pressure from the water and the dead plant material created coal under the ground (pressure removed all oxygen) and may even have created the oil with the fossils.

Yes, there are some small  issues that we cannot fully answer now..... But the Bible has a perfectly logical timeline and the only book with a perfectly logical solution to mankind's problems - the only ideology that can truly work..... mankind must willingly exhibit unselfish, self-sacrificing love and adhere to one just standard of morality.  The world is so divided right now and nations look to their own interests and refuse to work together to fix things. And even if they wanted to work together - they all have different standards of morality, ideologies etc. - they will never be able to work together  in a sincere fashion.  The quality of life on earth is going downhill fast! 

I can believe in a miracle when it fits into a greater plan that is totally logical...towards the outworking of a purpose.  But when one has to just believe that millions of miracles happened such as in the evolution theory - for no purpose at all -  it spawns the type of disrespect for life that Hitler, Paul Pot, and Stalin displayed, who believed that the superior being/survival of the fittest must prevail.  I was interested to read that Hawkins himself said something to this effect:  If mankind was not here to appreciate the beautiful things on earth - then it is as though they never existed.  We are the only creatures on this earth that can truly and intelligently appreciate everything around us.

The message of God is clear.  He is the one that will remove the wicked and he will let the meek stay behind to rebuild this earth and build a new human society based on the principles that He will give us.  Adam chose' independence' from the "good and bad" of god (and mankind is suffering under our independence) but under Jesus' rule mankind will willingly choose to follow the standards of god because they will see the wonderful benefits it will bring. And their peaceful loving lifestyle will bring glory to the creator - as it should have from the beginning..

If you watch the video - you will see how they discredited him, threatened, hounded him and spied on him.  I have seen this so many times before - in other cases.  These are the tactics these companies use.  Where money is at stake - people are bought and they lose their integrity very quickly.  These corporations usually pay other scientists to bring out studies that prove the opposite.  Come on Ann, I did not think you were so naïve  ......this is going on all the time!  

It is an established fact that environmental poisons disrupt the hormone systems of people ...... and Americans are getting sicker and sicker.... because the FDA and EPA are not the watch dog they purport to be. A lot of  the members are compromised... but that is another subject. Many of the poisons allowed in America are not allowed in Europe at all!

To give you a another good example: climate change.  There are scientists who were paid to "scientifically" disprove climate change...and for a long time they had many Americans fooled.  The evidence is now overwhelming...

When we are dealing with human lives - we need to show respect for lives - not money.  If there is the slightest inkling that a substance can hurt people or the environment then companies must not react in this way - but voluntarily withdraw a substance and not adhere to the subterfuge they put this professor through.

I put this video for viewing so people can see what is going on.  People know that these corporations are corrupt... but some do not realize how much they hound their victims.  This scientist acted in good faith and  was sure his data was correct - and look how he was treated.  You really think this does not happen more often?  This system is corrupt  - only Jehovah will fix this when he removes all people without a conscience.. America's motto:  In the dollar we trust.   Definitely not God.

Watch this video: A dangerous poison and a professor threatened / entrapment because he published his findings and did not take bribes.

And people really think that we humans can cooperate to manage the earth well?  This incident proves that humans cannot even do it on a local scale. We are mismanaging the earth by poisoning absolutely everything.  The funguses in the ground and microbes (on which our lives depend) are dying off, we are destroying forests, desertification, our fresh water is poisoned and full of chemicals, we are decimating the animal populations....climate change - too much to mention... soon we will be at the point of no return. 

And then I still get people who tell me the world was "always" like this....and that scientists will come up with an answer....  Yea?  They are ones manufacturing all this stuff that is destroying the earth ....and making money out of it ?  They will only stop when they are forced to.... Humans do not have the will to do this -  Jehovah will have to stop them at his appointed time.

Ok, you are obviously stuck on Russell.... in the 1800 's - which is crazy because JWs have moved on since 1919 - Russell had many things right - the mortality of the soul, Jehovah's name just to name only 2.  He was not the only one who understood these things to be so.  It is true that he attended other groups which existed in this time when he started to study the bible - because there was a general awakening to study the Bible among the populace.... but he was the one that wanted to publish all he knew and used all his resources to do so. He was also the one who received all the hateful publicity from the religious leaders. 

So it seems you are determined to ignore the 2 different Greek words pertaining to "coming" (I mentioned it above) and keep referring to Russell"?  

For as they were in those days before the Flood, eating and drinking, men marrying and women being given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark,  and they took no note until the Flood came and swept them all away, so the 'presence' of the Son of man will be..... This is referring to Jesus's 'presence' - when he is busy ruling - before the final arrival of the destruction to come. Allan also explained this.

But please can you explain to me the following? Who the faithful and discreet slave is who  is "preaching the kingdom in the entire inhabited earth" to all the tribes and nations.... this is a sign of the end is it not in Matthew 24?  Verse 14 says so.  So this is a clear sign that we are in the time of the end -  then also read verse 43-45.  

Also go on to explain to me Luke 21: 24 , "and Jerusalem will be trampled on by the nations* until the appointed times of the nations* are fulfilled."   What is this appointed time of the nations?   How do we know what it is  - and how long is it? Did God just put it there as decoration?... to sound important??? or does it have specific meaning for those who search through the scriptures in the time of the end. Daniel 12: 4 + 3 says: "As for you, Daniel, keep the words secret, and seal up the book until the time of the end.Many will rove about,and the true knowledge will become abundant.” ³  “And those having insight will shine as brightly as the expanse of heaven, and those bringing the many to righteousness like the stars, forever and ever. (they will be preaching). 

Who is Michael who "will stand up?": in this verse Daniel 1: “During that time Miʹchael will stand up, the great prince, who is standing in behalf of your people. And there will occur a time of distress such as has not occurred since there came to be a nation until that time. "

Is it part of the timeline of God? Matthew 24 also refers to Daniel  does it not?  So this shows that some prophesy in Daniel has reference to the end...

I suggest you read : What does the Bible really teach.... and analyze all the scriptures about the " trampling of the nations" and the one who "has the right to the throne".

I am done now.  There are many people out there who want to know what these scriptures mean....

There are too many scriptures which talk of Jesus's return " in the clouds". Jesus went back to heaven in a cloud and he told his followers his return would be the same.  The whole world did not see him go back to heaven - only his followers were present.  Today his true disciples understand that he is already ruling. 

And I again quote Revelation 12: 6- 12.  Go and read it.. It is absolutely clear that Jesus would start ruling in heaven and there would still be a period of time on the earth after this.

Like an idiot I have been quoting scriptures from the bible to Ann and hoping that she would think about them.... to understand the invisible coming of Christ.... but from her responses I noticed that she has not put thought in them at all.  Now I understand why - it seems she does not really believe in the Bible as she is questioning the flood.  So to her the Bible is hocus-pocus.

I have recently been watching a lot of videos of ancient periods/cultures (because I have studied many books about the cultures which existed after the flood) and looking into archeology before the flood and the dating.

I recently watched a  few interesting videos on civilization.  There are many theories now about a culture that existed more than 10, 000 years ago (before the flood) which influenced the culture of the Sumerians (after the flood).  And many scientists are postulating that this culture had great influence on the post-flood ideas. For example the Nephilim influence as seen in the pantheon of half gods that were also human after the flood.

I also happened to stumble on a few good programs wherein different scientists depict an ice age and a world-wide flood after the ice age - when it melted suddenly.  This was very interesting to me because there is one video (for the life of me I cannot find it now to paste the link) has footage of animals that were swept together in large piles and the bones are visible - in different parts of the world. (There is also other evidences of a flood in many rock formations high up on mountains etc. etc.)  There no doubt was a flood as the stone formations prove -  and these animal bones are prehistoric animals - together with animals that we know today....  Now I do not believe everything I see on video - but it is very interesting that there are several scientists now postulating these theories of a flood - but they put the dates much father back than the Bible.

Now I happen to have a brother who is a brilliant scientist (analytical chemist) who researched new poison structures for many years (toxicologist).  He became one of JWs and eventually went to prison for his faith because he refused to kill people secretly for the government (All governments do bad things behind the scenes).

I have had some discussions with him on the dating of the planet and I wish you could be there because he refutes all the current tests as to the dates given by science. Similar - as in the science of archeology and the dating of civilizations - there is  a set timeline given by scientists (which were haphazardly put together in the 19th century) but are now followed by scientists and has become like a religion. Scientists who now dare to challenge these dates are ostracized from the scientific community - and if you are a scientist that believes in god - you are the worst of the worst.

Unfortunately, science is not the accurate science that they want us to believe - a lot of it is conjecture and cannot be proved - but it is accepted because there is a "consensus" amongst the learned.

So - I believe that this evidence of a flood goes back to the time of Noah and not to the dates the scientists are allocating to it.

There are also many good videos on youtube which show how they have refuted the dating of certain civilizations..... and rocks..... by the methods used today.  Scientists sent out the same rock samples to different university labs and most of the results came back putting the stones in widely different epochs!

JWs do not believe that the earth was created in literal 6 days because the Bible shows "all 6 days of creation is also called "a day" which indicates that it refers to a period of time. Read genesis.

I do not believe in evolution ..... they are regularly transplanting 'pig heart valves' into humans because the flesh of pigs  resemble our flesh closely - not that of apes.  So the scientific community has got that one wrong by a far shot.  I worked for my brother for a short while and can assure you I understand why Jehovah told the Jews not to eat pigs - they get infections very quickly - like humans. Sheep and other animals are a different kind of flesh and they do not get the same pernicious kind of infections.

Apart from this - the math does not equate.  The complexity of life makes each small little change in the human genome  - exponential. In fact one has to accept more miracles (exponentially) in evolution than the few mentioned in the Bible.  So,  many these exponential changes took place in what scientists call the "goldilocks age" .  This means that the environment had to be stable for a very long periods of time for these small incremental changes to happen for the better - and for the species to survive and adapt - it is  (like the name indicates) a fairy goldilocks story.

The bone record is scanty - and evolutionist know this and therefore there are more and more hoaxes being exposed - but they do not get much publicity these days.  There are very few fossil evidences of the various changes which took place in the evolution of all life into all the various branches of the tree of life.... and most of them consist of only a few bones and the rest is "beautiful drawings of how the scientists think they looked like". ....If these changes took place randomly - there are so many different  species - one should be able to see many fossils of ALL the various animals that did NOT survive the various stages - with the problems evident in the fossil.    It seems that wonderful organs appeared suddenly and functioned perfectly together with other organs in a remarkable way - more evidence of a creator I would say.

But while these complex organs were developing slowly over long periods of time.... it seems that the male and female organs suddenly developed in "one generation" for the species to "survive".   And to crown it all - if one studies the various forms of sexual organs (and there are many - believe me - the variations boggles the mind) then one finds that the various ones fit each other perfectly for the different species..... and these had to develop quickly and accurately for the species to survive.  The male and female developed separately but yet perfectly fitted - so the species could survive. .....

So the more I study and read about these things I am convinced of the " bias and superiority of many scientists" who put themselves above other humans and protect their cushy research jobs - and they like to look intellectual - like the Pharisees.  They have never learnt to think through all the aspects of evolution properly..... they are all like sheep following the mainstream. 

Each person must make up their mind about this but I urge people to make sure for themselves.  Think a little more about a few of the items I mentioned above. 

Allan, thanks for laying it out so well.  Ann,  I would like to add the thought (since I work mostly amongst Muslim refugees) that most Muslims expect Jesus / Isa to come back in the flesh as a Muslim.   He is then going to take up the sword and fight a war (in the flesh) the Dajjal and " break the cross".  All Christians will then have to submit.  (Sunni and Shi'a Muslims differ somewhat on this but they believe that there will be a "physical" war (with black flags like we see today) to "break" the cross and destroy the Jews.

It is great to understand the truth of the bible because one can immediately refute these strange thoughts with the correct scriptures: I usually use Revelation 12: 6-12  to show that Jesus has already started ruling invisible in heaven - most Muslims do not know this - and they immediately understand that Satan in now been thrown out of heaven and that he is the cause of the tumultuous problems causing the terrible pain and suffering experienced under Islamism / IS at present.  I also use the scripture which shows that God's true servants would not be mislead.  The scripture is Matt 24:  it  implies that those who are being mislead will call out : "there is the Christ" - there is the Christ" (because they expect him in the flesh). 

²³  “Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look! Here is the Christ, or, ‘There!’ do not believe it.²⁴  For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will perform great signs and wonders so as to mislead, if possible, even the chosen ones.²⁵  Look! I have forewarned you.²⁶  Therefore, if people say to you, ‘Look! He is in the wilderness,’ do not go out; ‘Look! He is in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it ²⁷  For just as the lightning comes out of the east and shines over to the west, so the presence of the Son of man will be.²⁸  Wherever the carcass is, there the eagles will be gathered together.  (Revelation 19 depicts Jesus in heaven with an "army of angels "with him and how the wicked will fall.).

Rev19:  "Also, the armies in heaven were following him on white horses, and they were clothed in white, clean, fine linen. ¹⁵  And out of his mouth protrudes a sharp, long sword with which to strike the nations, and he will shepherd them with a rod of iron. Moreover, he treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God the Almighty. ¹⁶  On his outer garment, yes, on his thigh, he has a name written, King of kings and Lord of lords.  ¹⁷  I saw also an angel standing in the sun, and he cried out with a loud voice and said to all the birds that fly in midheaven: “Come here, be gathered together to the great evening meal of God,+ ¹⁸  so that you may eat the flesh of kings and the flesh of military commanders and the flesh of strong men and the flesh of horses and of those seated on them, and the flesh of all, of freemen as well as of slaves and of small ones and great.”

So it is not just misguided Christians who will expect Jesus to come in the flesh.  Which may cause some chaos in future when all these people from different denominations expect a fleshly person to arrive - and most important: How will they identify him?   By a miracle somewhere on the north pole? Or when he arrives in Africa?   Will the rest of the world believe he arrived if he comes from some backwater place?   Would God not have told us what he would look like?  Mohammad thought of these kind of issues: There are attempts in the Hadith to describe the "Dajjal" - which are actually too nasty to mention here.

When Jesus arrives in full power - a warning message will already have been sounded throughout the earth by the true followers of Chris (similar to Noah's day).  As Ezekiel points out more than seventy times:  "The nations shall know that I am Jehovah". So they will "understand" the signs because it will be very clear because Jehovah's people will give a final warning message.  This message will make people very angry (gnashing of teeth). 

The violence in the world today is conditioning people to kill each other as the Bible says:  the hand of brother will be against his brother."  This is why I always urge people to develop the tender loving disposition that Jesus taught about.  Because Jehovah's people will not fight (physically - in any way) when the rest of the world will be ready and prepared to do this.

I see so much propaganda in the media (the three frogs mentioned in Rev 16: 13- 16) which is pitting nations and ideologies (religions who advocate weapons) against each other.  The world is truly gearing up of a nasty finale!  Most people I meet in the field agree that the signs are here and we are in the time of the end.... but similar to the time of Noah they get on with normal life (eating and drinking and giving out in marriage) and ignore what is going on around them.  They do absolutely nothing to find out more about the truth.... Sad...