Shiwiii

so is Jesus a true god or not? What does John 1:1 speak to you?

I quite agree, the honor given by a child is not different from mother to father,this is because both are respected equally. A child does not know (at a very young age) the different roles each play. I can accept as the child grows older they recognize the different roles, however they still do not honor one more than the other. just as you said, regardless of the motive, honor is equal. showing this honor, as John states Jesus' quote, we must honor the same. I noticed you included the words "including His Son Jesus Christ", why have you included this if you do not believe they should be honored the exact same way? This is where you are differentiating honor, separating the equal honor. You have not included the same attributes, which is required by Jesus' statement. I'm not following your references, are you meaning Philippians 1:6? and Job 8:49? there is no Job or Joshua 8:49 So are you saying that the honor is only because of Jesus role to be judge? How then how do your reconcile the scriptures in Revelation? Rev 5:12 saying with a loud voice, “Worthy is the Lamb who was slain, to receive power and wealth and wisdom and might and honor and glory and blessing!”13 And I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and in the sea, and all that is in them, saying, “To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be blessing and honor and glory and might forever and ever!” Here we see that this same honor is bestowed upon both equally, nothing is mentioned about judging, but rather complete honor, glory (which God has said He would not share) and might. This is equal devotion, equal worship, equality.

The passage is exactly that, the equality of honor. I understand and quite agree with you on the length of this thread. We are going around in circles saying the same thing we just did. None of us is getting through to the other in a way that each of us understands our respective points. I do appreciate the conversation though.

The answer is in the very next verse. "Nevertheless you will die like men, and fall like any one of the princes. " So the psalmist does not consider them legitimate "gods". I quite agree with this statement, which makes the argument void in using Psalms 82 as a reference to other true gods. Right, because it was not blasphemy. So now back to Isaiah 43:10, does this apply to those "gods" of Psalms 82? or is it on a different level? It has to be on a different level, otherwise it would be a contradiction on God's part. "Before me there was no God formed, and there will be none after Me." So this must be applied to legitimate Gods, wouldn't you agree?

yes, but that is not the question. The question is not about why it is about how. How do you honor one more than the other? of course it is, Read Philippians 2, what does Jesus empty Himself of? Verse 6 says He was in the form of God. Jesus, when He came to the Earth made Himself humble and He emptied Himself of the form of God. So then, who would He be subject to then? Men? nope, The Father.

My question comes from John 1:1. If Jesus is "a god", then He is another god. Thus creating two gods. Is Jesus a legitimate god or is He a false god? The common answer is that satan is a God of this world, ok fine. Does that make satan a legitimate god? Isaiah 43:10 says that there is no God other than He.none formed before or after. So is Jesus a legitimate god or not? If so, then explain why you believe this.

It is actually not a contradiction. You and I are equal as being human. We are not equal when it comes to authority. If you were a Judge and I was a lawyer, in your court you would have the authority. In the street, we are equal. What we are disagreeing on, is not why, but rather the degree of honor. You and others here have inserted different forms of honor to be applied to the Son and to the Father. I am saying that there is no difference, one must honor both equally.

I Don't agree. Why would Jesus say to honor Him the same as his Father? You are trying to invent different kinds of honor.

No, they are not equal in authority, the Son is subject to the Father. Just like you are subject to your boss. But you are equally humans. Outside of your work, you are both treated equally.

I never said that the Son and the Father were not equal, just the opposite actually. Jesus is claiming to be God, or else why would the Jews want to kill him? It is clear in the text, based upon the statement Jesus made. Then He goes on to say we must honor Him just as we honor the Father.

What is the point of bowing down if one is already bowed down? That is my point. If one is already at the feet of another, then "prostration" ones self is already done. So then the word proskuneo has to have more of a meaning in those instances.

"Jesus never said he was equal to God, " Actually that is exactly what He said, the Jews knew it, John knew it, but you do not. It's ok if you cannot wrap you head around any opinion other than your own.

To add to this honor worship issue, I want to bring out a scripture that shows a little more clearly why I see worship (true worship) as a form of honor. Mark 7:6 And he said to them, “Well did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written, “‘This people honors me with their lips, but their heart is far from me; 7 in vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’

You do honor your parents in different ways, but the respect you give them is equal. The devotion you give to them (in a normal functioning family) is equal, Their value to you is equal (50% dad's input and 50% mom's for your being here). If I understand your point correctly is that your relationship between them in different. I would agree. As far as honor being the definition of deity, you are correct, but who else in the Bible are we told to honor equally with the Father? There is no one else to which this honor is applied equally, except Jesus. The equality is in the description of honor and how that honor is applied. It is a value you place on. Like before, your parents each have a value of 50% of your being brought into this world. This is not an absolute because some people do not place equal value to each of their parents, but for the sake of argument it is what I am using to convey the message. Here in the verse we are talking about equal value is to be placed upon the Son as is to the Father. How one chooses to act this honor out is the difference between what you are I are saying. If we both are called to the Royal palace, how would we show honor to the Queen? Would it be acceptable if we have different ways of doing this? likely not. I do not consider this equal. This is where the word worship, as you pointed out, is the act of paying homage. I understand and agree with you on "worship" can mean to bow down, or fall face down. Now what do you do with scriptures that use the same word proskuneō after the description of already being bowed down? Like for instance Matthew 4:9 "And he said to him, “All these I will give you, if you will fall down and worship me.” Is this just homage or is it actual worship? It would be actual worship because the act of bowing down has already been done, thus there would be more to the word proskuneō based on the context. Don't you agree?

I do not believe that the Father and the Son have equal authority. The Father is over the Son. What I said was that the Son and the Father deserve the same honor as stated in verse 23. This honor is placing value as we discussed earlier in this thread. This value is the point being made. If one values the Father greater than the Son then the value is not equal and this is not proper according to the scripture. I pose the same question to you: How does one honor Jesus and the Father equally, but yet not worship them equally? If the value is the same, then the devotion should be the same. Please describe how this is not so. How do you place equal value, but treat them differently?

But this is what you were implying or else you would have never mentioned it in the first place because it has no bearing on the topic discussed. We are talking about multiple scholars here, not public opinion. These men and women have studied and trained to do this very thing, translate. This is not some flippant group of people who have no Biblical training but want to write their own version. There are some who have done so, with little or no training what so ever other than a semester or two of Hebrew or Greek. Are you really trying to throw their education aside and lump them in with the uneducated opinions? That to me would be dishonest and insulting. But this is not what the scripture says now is it? It clearly states that one must honor the Son inasmuch as one honors the Father. From John chapter 5 verse 16 through to 28 is dealing with the equality and authority of Jesus. 16 And this was why the Jews were persecuting Jesus, because he was doing these things on the Sabbath. 17 But Jesus answered them, “My Father is working until now, and I am working.”18 This was why the Jews were seeking all the more to kill him, because not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God. Who said that Jesus was equal with God? was it Jesus? yes, but more so it was John recording what the Jewish leaders understood Jesus' words to mean. This was not by accident, Jesus didn't mince words, He knew exactly what they would think. Do you believe that Jesus didn't realize what His statement would mean? Of course He did. This would have been a perfect time for Jesus to correct them if He mislead them. He didn't, because He conveyed exactly what He intended to. 19 So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of his own accord, but only what he sees the Father doing. For whatever the Father[e] does, that the Son does likewise. 20 For the Father loves the Son and shows him all that he himself is doing. And greater works than these will he show him, so that you may marvel. 21 For as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, so also the Son gives lifeto whom he will. 22 The Father judges no one, but has given all judgment to the Son, 23 that all may honor the Son, just as they honor the Father.Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him. I see you have also quoted a portion of this and Donald has brought it up as well. Interesting to note in verse 21, Jesus gives life to whom He wishes. Does Jesus have to run it by His Father first? Nope. He has free will to give to whom He pleases. The Son can do what the Father can do, because He and the Father work in conjunction. This is demonstrative of Jesus' own will, which by the way is NOT contradictory to the will of the Father. 24 Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.25 “Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming, and is now here, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live. 26 For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself. 27 And he has given him authority to execute judgment, because he is the Son of Man. Jesus statement of hearing His word AND believing in the Father, one gains eternal life. Think about that for a moment, the Jews had the word of God in the OT, and now Jesus is saying these must hear (not just listening to the audible voice, but understanding) his words in conjunction with belief in the Father to gain eternal life. The Jews would never think of such, it would be blasphemy. Again, Jesus authority and equality is shown here because this is what God had told the Jews. Donald Diamond, I would write the same response to you as I did here regarding these verses. The context is showing both the equality and authority of Jesus. You are right, the context gives us the reason why we honor the Son just the same as we honor the Father.

If you have in fact studied all these versions of the Bible, then you would know that the verse we are talking about is neither variant nor spurious. I'm interested in knowing how you know so much about me and my studies? Get off your high horse, you have no idea what league I'm in. It is very telling in your response that instead of addressing the topic, you'd rather try and put me in my place. I've already given you the definition of honor, so repeating it to me only adds fluff to you post with no additional substance. How can you dismiss the number of scholars it took to translate all of those versions of the Bible and cling to the two that support you? I'll post this again: How does one honor Jesus and the Father equally, but yet not worship them equally? If the value is the same, then the devotion should be the same. Please describe how this is not so. How do you place equal value, but treat them differently?

what does this post of yours have to do with what I wrote? I said it seemed as though your statement was made about imperfect men making assumptions and God straightened them out. How does one honor Jesus and the Father equally, but yet not worship them equally? If the value is the same, then the devotion should be the same. You view of worship is actually not in question, it is what you do to one you must do to the other, according to John 5:23. I understand if you choose not to reply, in fact I'd rather you not if you are not going to address what I wrote and come up with some other tangent. While I agree with you here to a point, however I cannot throw out the numerous amounts of study involved to even translate properly, let alone the many scholars it takes just for one translation of the Bible. now you want to throw out 52 translations of the Bible and cling to the two who support you?

fair enough, but take a look again. I can dig up the information, but it would be better if you did. Any group or organization who claims to be "the way" is fooling themselves and I would steer clear. Jesus is the "truth, the way and the life" no organization is the truth, no organization is the way and no organization is the life. See this wasn't the question though. Who was claimed to have given the guidance to the Faithful and Discreet slave which turned out to be wrong teachings? I was not quoting you, I was asking you about the wrongs that were taught. Who gave them? The FDS no? Who did they claim this authority from, to speak on Gods behalf? Maybe you should read a little slower and closely before you accuse one of deceit.

you think by finding A translation that gives you support, is the collective meaning of what the verse means? Hardly. It wasn't the verse you took so much time finding it was a translation that supports your idea. Your example of worship is noted, however the issue is what constitutes honor? It is placed value as per Strong's : G5091 τιμάω timaō tim-ah'-o From G5093 ; to {prize} that {is} fix a valuation upon; by implication to revere: - {honour} value. So do you value Jesus inasmuch as the Father? Value here is equal in John 5:23. In what way does one value each of them? Again, your relationship with your Mother and Father are different, but you respect them the same. John 5:23 is saying our relationship should be the same, the same value is to be placed upon both equally and our devotion should be the same.... respect, honor, worship, fear, admiration, love, subjection, adherence, etc. You are free to not answer, it will not hurt my feelings. exactly, and that is where context comes into play. here in your example, did you happen to notice that out of the 54 or so translations only two use anything other than worship? How many scholars worked on these 52 other translations? I would venture to say that they have far more knowledge on words and their meanings than you or I put together. It seems funny though that you went through all of the trouble to find one that you could quote, and ignored the 52 others. So lastly, How does one honor Jesus and the Father equally, but yet not worship them equally? If the value is the same, then the devotion should be the same. You view of worship is actually not in question, it is what you do to one you must do to the other, according to John 5:23.

The WT does not baptize in the name of the Father, Son and the Holy Spirit, nor do they baptize in the name of Christ. How can you think that is so? Doesn't the WT believe that they are the way to salvation? And without association with them, there is no salvation? Who was claimed to have given the guidance to the Faithful and Discreet slave which turned out to be wrong teachings? In your statement here, you make it seem as if it was just imperfect men who got it wrong, and God straightened it out. But on who's authority was the wrong proclaimed? was it not God's according to the society?

You have completely ignored my post about John 5:23. I will post it again and look for your response: I think where we are having differences is the application of likeness, or equality. That is what is being conveyed in the scripture based on the Greek word used. G2531 καθώς kathōs kath-oce' From G2596 and G5613 ; just (or inasmuch ) {as} that: - according {to} ({according} even) {as} {how} when. The same, not anything different. Your relationship with your parents is different, but you respect them the same. This is saying our relationship should be the same, and our devotion should be the same.... respect, honor, worship, fear, admiration, love, subjection, adherence, etc.

God said for the angels to worship Jesus, Hebrews 1:6, buy yet the angel said to John "do not do that. I am a fellow servant of yours and of your brethren the prophets and of those who heed the words of this book. Worship God" Revelation 22:9. So who's wrong the angels or God. Jesus said "go satan, for it is written, you shall worship the LORD your God, and serve Him only" did God contradict Himself when He commanded the angels to worship Jesus?

Let me ask you, does the Son deserve riches, wisdom, glory, honor, might and power? The same is said of the Father , "glory and honor and power" Revelation 4:11 AND Revelation 5:10

The same, not anything different. Your relationship with your parents is different, but you respect them the same. This is saying our relationship should be the same, and our devotion should be the same.... respect, honor, worship, fear, admiration, love, subjection, adherence, etc.