Shiwiii

It doesn't matter if it is stand alone or not, what matters is that it is being used to support chronology in one publication, and in the another it is being discredited for the exact same usage. I'd like to get back to the topic at hand. If in fact the WTS uses Ptolemy's Canon in support of 539 B.C., as we have seen in the Insight book, then what factors or references are used to end up with 607 vs 587?

Yes, that is part of it, although this part directly accepts the evidence Ptolemy presents as inline with "other sources as well" which is being used here as accurate support. If you go to pages 455-458 and read through from "Ptolemy's Canon" through to "from human creation to the present" to you will see collectively that the WTS supports Ptolemy's Canon in its use of supporting the dates and accuracy. Here is just a sample: "But even though Ptolemy may have calculated accurately or recorded the dates of certain eclipses in the past (a modern astronomer found three fifths of Ptolemy's dates correct)," "These astronomical diaries contain references to the reigns of certain kings and appear to coincide with the figures given in Ptolemy's canon." "Finally, as in the case of Ptolemy, even though the astronomical information ( as now interpreted and understood ) on the texts discovered is basically accurate," "Another date that can be used as a pivotal point is the year 539 B.c.E. , supported by various historical sources as the year for the overthrow of Babylon by Cyrus the Persian. ( Secular sources for Cyrus' reign include Diodorus, Africanus, Eusebius, and Ptolemy, as well as the Babylonian tablets.)"

I wasn't directing my comment at you, i was directing my comment towards the topic. It is all about control when one has to question everything based on another person or groups instruction.

Not only this, but the fact that the WTS only accepts secular chronology when it suits them and their teaching. In one publication they support the use of the Canon of Ptolemy ( Insight vol 1, page 454, under Persian Chronology) in finding the date 539 B.C. as well as being accurate (Insight vol 1, page 455). Now in the Oct 1 Watchtower under the article When was ancient Jerusalem destroyed? - Part one they discredit the Canon with this statement: "In general, Ptolemy’s canon is regarded as accurate. But in view of its omissions, should it really be used to provide a definite historical chronology?" (http://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/2011736). We just saw in the Insight book that it IS used as an accurate source for chronology, according to the WTS. So which is it? You can't have it both ways. This is completely dishonest. I look forward to other information that hopefully will come out of this discussion and my learning more about what others feel. This topic is the foundation of the organization itself as it directly relates to 1914/1919, so it should be interesting.

I believe this is a classic case of control/puppetry. If someone is going to instruct you right or wrong on things as trivial as this matter, and you accept it, then you deserve the control over you and have rightfully asked the question to those in authority. The next question that should be asked is if it is ok to wipe 3 or 4 times, or should it always be 7 wipes since 7 is the number of completion.

Melinda, While I appreciate your additional thoughts on the matter, the fact still remains that there is no scriptural support against tattoos with the exception of for the dead. I do agree that there is better ways to express our individuality rather than a tattoo, but to put it on par with eating pork for example (a stumbling to a Jew) is going beyond what is written. Fashion called for women to adorn themselves with earrings, but you don't make the same argument against that. This "system of things" has influenced many people by means of fashion, hair color, painted nails, nose rings, etc. This is just another way to add rules, like the Jews did with the Sabbath, to people who will blindly follow them. Logic and freedom have been taken away when things are added to God's word that were not there, just to keep a group isolated. I also want to mention that Deuteronomy 18:10-12 has nothing to do with tattoos, it has to do with spirit mediums. Either you are trying to tie "things Jehovah hates" to tattoos by means of what you were taught, or you think tattoos are magical. Again Proverbs 6:16-19 has nothing to do with the topic at hand, other than to try and (weakly) support your idea of "things Jehovah hates", Revelation 22:15 , Malachi 3:6 , James 1:16, 17 and John 17:3 , I have no idea why these were even referenced, no baring on the topic at all. Don't get me wrong, the whole Bible is relevant to us, but not when taken out of context to support a group instead of God. I've already addressed Romans 12:1&2. Questions of readers????? You know that those are made up right?

"Switched" equals new light? If something is true, then it should stay true. There is usually no scriptural support for a lot of things given by the WTS. There are no physical facts that fulfill the second coming, at least not yet. Interesting that the WT kept changing this but no one saw it. I mean this should be a major red flag to those who truly want to stick to the Bible. Didn't Jesus tell us that false Christs and false prophets would come and that they would say that Jesus would be out in the desert/wilderness or in the inner rooms? Does this not parallel the invisible proclamation of the WTS? If they said "He was in the wilderness" you could not see that from where they told you, like wise if "He is in the inner rooms", well again cannot be seen from where you were told.

What part of Ann's comment was scripture?

I find no scriptural support for the thought. Without that, then it is only man's speculation.

Thank you. That's enough of a response. I mean it is only the recognition of the anniversary of my birth.

and here is the point I was trying to make as well. God's word does not change, it is man's interpretation that does. It is man's law, which is not sanctioned by God, that is condemning. When one allows men to rule and reign over their lives as if God Himself dictated it, then you have these problems of constant changing doctrines and man made rules to follow. This really is the core of the problem. There is a vast difference between those who lead and those who impose. A leader has gained respect by not an iron fist of rules and regulations, but rather a gentle and humble approach and willingness to come along side and work with you. Those who impose their belief are dictators, and this seldom leads to genuine respect, but rather conformity. It is take what we give and like it. One must conform or find themselves on the outside, outside of what? The box they allowed themselves to be put in. I truly appreciate this discussion and your input.

JW Insider, I agree with your thoughts. I see that you have thought this through and looked at it from a bigger perspective than just adherence. The idea of adding additional rules and "laws" to separate a group has been around since the Pharisees. If we look at the additional laws Jews put upon themselves in regards to the Sabbath, we can easily see why and how this tradition becomes a burden and a stumbling block. I have no problem with a group not celebrating an event such as birthdays, but I do have a problem when it is expressed as a biblical teaching. You and I both know that it is not. As far as the society becoming mainstream, isn't that already in motion? Wasn't it just a few years ago that the internet was to be avoided, but now it is accepted but only under certain rules established by the society themselves? I'm not trying to derail the conversation, just making a point that you brought up. My point is that the society has created their own rules/laws just as the Jews did. That's fine, but don't proclaim it is biblical. We can learn a lot from looking at things from a global perspective. What I mean is your example of the people in Vietnam, and how they live on so little, but yet we in western countries throw away our resources. It is a shame and we ought to think about how spoiled we really are. The western world will never take this into consideration, it is only a few small groups who try and do anything about it, but it should be on our minds. I agree, however is this for the individual witness or are they to "wait on Jehovah"? You see this comment IS biblical from both Acts 17:11 and 2 Corinthians 13:5. The problem being that within the organization, this is not allowed to the individual witness, but rather the society. It is "wait on Jehovah" to correct the GB, but that is the problem of following men instead of God. God's word does not change, it is men and their interpretation that changes. Those that follow men and end up dying before the change takes place, what happens to them? are they posthumously acquitted and no longer disfellowshipped? wouldn't make much difference then though. In the end, I think we are more in agreement than not. I just can't see how anyone or any group can proclaim a biblical teaching that is not one and hold it so dear when it is the thoughts of men.

If you noticed the WT publications and THEIR interpretation, then you can clearly see what I am talking about. I don't need to convince you of anything. You can bury your head in the sand and ignore it, but the fact of the matter is that the society is doing exactly what they have preached is wrong. It is not a matter of which cross, or who's meaning of it is. It is the fact that the logo has been plastered not only on buildings, but shirts, pins and the like to the point that it is a symbol that is an object of intense devotion.

You have made my point. There is no sound reason, nor biblical reason for the adherence of not celebrating a birthday. It was only to distinguish the group from what others have done. To make the group different.

you are missing the point here. I have asked a question. please read it and answer. This is intended for Anke Adolphi.

it is worship of the ORG. plain and simple. even under the Organizations own definition.

i'm sorry if you cannot see the difference between what the WT says and what logic tells you. it is measurable and on the same level.

Oh but they are, and even more so than the cross and crown, they are being peddled as adornments, with bags and t-shirts and pins, etc. ok, well that doesn't make you right or wrong.

harmless exactly.......what did a birthday have to do with a beheading????? was it not the action outside of the actual ritual?

ask yourself this: Is Jesus a true God or a false God? Is Jesus a God like Moses or not? Is Jesus a God like Satan or not? Was Moses a real God? or like a god? Is Satan A real true God or not? What Is Jesus? A true God or not? If true then what do you make of Isaiah 43:10? According to WT belief John 1:1 , Jesus is a true God but not God Almighty. What then do you make of Isiah 43:10? NO OTHER GOD!

I have a question then, If Jesus is another kind of God, then what do you make of Isaiah 43:10? "Before Me there was no God formed and there will be none after Me"

I see that you'd rather discuss this portion of my comment than the context of my statement. Reasoning book: "Cross Definition: The device on which Jesus Christ was executed is referred to by most of Christendom as a cross. The expression is drawn from the Latin crux. What were the historical origins of Christendom’s cross?" God's Kindgom Rules! Page 103: Should Christians Use the Cross? 12 For many years, the Bible Students viewed the cross as an acceptable symbol of Christianity. Further in the God's Kingdom Rules! book on page 104, "Yet, at first, the Bible Students saw no objection to what they thought were appropriate uses of the cross. For example, they proudly wore a cross-and-crown pin as an identifying badge." Is this not going on today with the new logo? I see it displayed and up for sale on pins and socks, bags and shirts.

I know the usual answer of being that two birthdays were mentioned and each time someone was killed/beheaded, and I am not picking this out of your response as your main point. I am just familiar with this reasoning and If this is the measuring stick, then it stands to reason that taking a nap in the afternoon is also evil. According to 2 Samuel 4:5-7, Ish-bosheth was taking an afternoon nap and was beheaded.