Jesus.defender

No, No, No. Come on, my friend, address the verses i gave.

That is your opinion and the text does NOT say that. You did NOT address the verses. If Jesus was just raised "spiritually", Jesus would NOT say "for a spirit has not flesh and bones, as you see me have.". The resurrected Jesus DID have a body of flesh and bones. Also, the text is clear that Thomas called Jesus His God. Now, the watchtower i believe ( and i could be wrong ) say that that was an expression of surprise much like we would use today. However, this is easily refuted. Jesus was a Jew. Calling Jesus God would be considered blasphemy to the jews. What is the penalty for blasphemy? death on the spot. So, did Jesus reach for stones to kill him? What did Jesus say? "You blasphemed, thomas? No, He blessed him for realizing the truth! My friend, i honestly do thank you for staying with the verses i gave ( apart from 1 post so far ). It makes things much easier to discuss. If two people differ on something, there should be no reason why they cannot have a friendly, polite, loving conversation.

AT LAST! Now you have addressed a passage i quoted. Thank you. Unfortunately, you did not think for yourself. You just cut and pasted what the watchtower tells you to say. All you have done is given an interpretation which is biased and imbued with the false presupposition that Jesus is not God. Please, my friend tell me what does "But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: " mean? It means clearly that God the father is addressing the Son as God.

No. Please address the passages i mentioned. The passages we are dealing with in this post are: John 20:27-28 "Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing." ( this also shows that Jesus was raised BODILY ) "And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God." John 1:1 "Ἐν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ Λόγος καὶ ὁ Λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν Θεόν Θεὸς ἦν ὁ Λόγος ", "En archē ēn ho Logos kai ho Logos ēn pros ton Theon kai Theos ēn ho Logos", "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and God was the Word" Hebrews 1:8 "But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: "

@ShariKind

LOL. funny. not one JW has EVER been able to PROVE who removed it and when

Ignore the word "trinity". its not important. God is everlasting, eternal, without beginning or end. God is unchanging, infinite, omnipresence, omniscient , self-existent, self-sufficient, immaterial and omnipotent. There is only ONE God. God Himself says He knows of NO OTHER GOD and if He is all-knowing, He would know if there was any other Gods. The Bible says that God the father is God. The Bible says that Jesus is God. John 8:58, John 1:1, John 20:28, Hebrews 1:8, Isaiah 44:6 ( cross-reference Revelation 1:17 ) The Bible says that the Holy Spirit is God. Acts 5:3,4. Romans 8:11 The Bible also says there is ONE God. DEUTERONOMY 6:4, DEUTERONOMY 4:35,39, DEUTERONOMY 32:39, 2 SAMUEL 7:22, 1 KINGS 8:60, 2 KINGS 5:15 , 2 KINGS 19:15, NEHEMIAH 9:6, PSALM 18:31 ( Which also states Jesus is God ), PSALM 86:1, ISAIAH 37:16,20, ISAIAH 43:10,11, ISAIAH 44:6,8, ISAIAH 45:21, ISAIAH 46:9, HOSEA 13:4, MARK 12:29-34, ROMANS 3:30, 1 CORINTHIANS 8:4-6, 1 TIMOTHY 2:5. Therefore, somehow, these three entities constitute the one, eternal, everlasting God. We are not told HOW God is God, that is not important. God just tells us thats the way it is.

I know jehovahs witnesses don't care about the watchtowers FAILED PROPHECIES. Oh i do have an alternative to these false prophecies. "But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only."

In other words, the watchtower has NO IDEA.

CHRIST’S BODILY RESURRECTION ‘I have power to take it again’ John 10:18 Watchtower Teaching: ‘Jesus was raised to life as an invisible spirit. He did not take up again that body in which he had been killed . . .’ ‘Let your Name be sanctified.’ (p.266). The Watchtower teaches that Jesus’ body was disposed of by God. The NWT mistranslates I Peter 3:18 as ‘being put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit’ to teach merely a spiritual resurrection of Christ. Bible Teaching: I Peter 3:18 refers to when Christ died. His Spirit went and preached to spirits in prison (v. 19,20). After three days, Christ’s physical body was raised. I Peter 3:18 (KJV) correctly reads: ‘being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit.’ Which Scriptures best teach Christ’s bodily resurrection? 1. ‘They were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit.’ (v.37) He said unto them, ‘Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.’ (Luke 24:37, 39) Notice that the resurrected Christ says here that: (1) He is not a spirit; (2) His resurrection body has flesh and bones; (3) His physical hands and feet are proof of His physical resurrection; Jesus is trying to convince them that He, ‘I myself’ has a permanent physical body which still had the nail scars in His hands and feet. This is opposite to the WT teaching that Christ’s body was disposed of and that He became only a spirit. If the WT claim was correct, then Jesus would be deceiving the disciples here in showing them His body. 2. ‘Then saith he to Thomas, . . . reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.’ (John 20:27) Here Jesus says that He has a physical side that He challenges Thomas to touch. 3. ‘Neither did his flesh see corruption.’ - Acts 2:30,31 Notice the following: a) God promised David that ‘according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ’ to sit on his throne.’ (v.30). This is a bodily resurrection of Christ, not spiritual. The NWT omits this because of its corrupt Westcott-Hort Greek text. Well over 38 manuscripts have it. b) ‘neither did his flesh see corruption’ (v.31) means that Christ’s body did not decay. Why? Because Jesus was raised from the dead in a material, fleshly body. 4. ‘I will raise it up . . . he spake of the temple of his body.’ - John 2:19-21 ‘Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up (v.19). But he spake of the temple of his body.’ (v.21) Jesus here promised that He Himself would raise up His own body after three days. Notice how Jesus uses the word ‘body’ meaning a bodily resurrection, not a spiritual resurrection. 5. Christ promises to eat of the fruit of the vine in the Kingdom. Only a body can eat. ‘I will not drink of the fruit of the vine, until the Kingdom of God shall come.’(Luke 22:18) Jesus here showed that his resurrected body would be able to eat and drink even in the Kingdom of God. Notice that a non-material spirit cannot eat and drink. Jesus promised the disciples in Luke 22:30 ‘that ye may eat and drink at my table in my Kingdom.’ Question: If Jesus expected to become an immaterial spirit, why would He promise the disciples that they would eat and drink with Christ at His table in His Kingdom? 6. Christ ate a broiled fish and a honeycomb in front of them. Luke 24:41,42. 7. ‘he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies’. Rom. 8:11 As Christ’s body was raised physically from the dead, so shall our mortal bodies be raised. 8. His resurrection body could ‘breathe on them’(John 20:22). A spirit cannot breathe, can it? 9. ‘His feet shall stand in that day upon the Mount of Olives...’ Zechariah 14:4 A spirit does not have feet. Only a physical body has feet as Jesus has at His second coming. 10. ‘One shall say unto him, What are these wounds in thine hands?’ Zechariah 13:6 Question: How can a non-material spirit have wounds in his hands which can be observed? 11. The resurrected, glorified Christ touched John, laying his right hand on him. Rev. 1:17 Watchtower Objection: JWs quote I Corinthians 15:44,50 to support their claim that Jesus was raised from the dead as a spirit creature: a) ‘It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.’ (v.44) b) ‘flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God.’ (v.50). JWs claim that Jesus must have had a spiritual resurrection, because flesh-and-blood bodies cannot exist in heaven. They claim that mortality and corruption belong to the fleshly body. Bible Teaching: a) The Greek word for body, ‘soma’ (4983), always means a material body, an organised whole made up of parts, when used of a person (Zodhiates, NT Word Study,p.1358). The spiritual body in I Cor.15:44 is not an immaterial body, but a supernatural, spirit-dominated body. It is a body directed by the spirit, as opposed to a body under the dominion of the flesh. There are no exceptions to Paul using ‘soma’ for a material body. Paul even refers to a believer as a ‘spiritual’ man who judges all things (I Cor. 2:15), yet Paul did not mean an immaterial invisible man with no physical body. He meant a spirit-controlled man with a flesh and blood body. QUESTION: In I Corinthians 2:15 (‘He that is spiritual judgeth all things’), is Paul discussing an invisible spirit creature or a material, flesh-and-blood human? Can you see that being ‘spiritual’ does not demand a non-material body? The same is true in I Corinthians 15:44. b) Key: In v.50 ‘flesh and blood’ is an idiom meaning that mortal, perishable, earth-bound humans, as we are now, cannot have a place in God’s glorious, heavenly Kingdom. c) ‘this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.’v.53 Nothing is taken away from us (materialness). Instead immortality is ‘put on’ or added to us. Question: Don’t the words ‘put on’ mean adding something to humanity (that is immortality), not taking away something from humanity (our material body)? Conclusion: Since Christ’s resurrected body could eat, drink, breathe (John 20:22), show His hands and feet with scars (Luke 24:40), be touched, and have flesh and bones (Luke 24:39), it is certain that this body was a material body. This is especially true since Jesus corrected the disciples’ misconception that they had seen a spirit (Luke 24:37). For the JWs to say that a body is not a body, is their last resort of redefining common words.

IS JESUS ‘MICHAEL THE ARCHANGEL’? Watchtower Teaching WT claims that Daniel 10:13,21; 12:1; and I Thess 4:16 teach that: 1) Jesus existed as Michael the archangel before his birth to Mary; then 2) Jesus gave up his spirit existence as an angel when he entered Mary’s womb to become a human; 3) At the resurrection he was recreated as Michael the archangel. They describe Christ’s progressive existence as angel, then human, then angel. ‘Michael, one of the chief princes’ (Daniel 10:13). ‘Michael your prince’ (Daniel 10:21). ‘Michael the great prince’ (Daniel 12:1). JWs think that Jesus must be Michael because of Michael’s authority over other angels as a chief prince. The WT teaches that Jesus Christ was Michael the archangel, who was born as a human, died and was raised up as an archangel again. They refer to Jesus Christ as Michael the archangel. (Watchtower, 15 Feb, 1979, p.31). Bible Teaching: 1) Michael is ‘one of the chief princes’ (10:21), but Jesus Christ is the only begotten Son in John 3:16. ‘Begotten’ in Greek is ‘monogenes’ meaning uniqueone of a kind. Michael being ‘one of the chief princes’ means that he is just one among a group of chief angels. Ask: Where is Jesus called a ‘chief Prince’ in the Bible? Ask: Where is Jesus clearly mentioned in Daniel 10:13? Ask: Isn’t Jesus as ‘King of kings and Lord of lords’ (Revelation 19:16) much higher in authority than one of a group of chief princes? 2) Ask: ‘To which of the angels did God ever say ‘thou art my son’?’ (Hebrews 1:5) 3) The Bible mentions Michael the archangel five times as: 1. ‘Michael, one of the chief princes’ (Daniel 10:13) 2, ‘Michael, your prince’ (Daniel 10:21) 3. ‘Michael, the great prince’ (Daniel 12:1) 4. ‘Michael the archangel . . . durst not bring against him (the devil) a railing accusation, but said The Lord rebuke thee’ (Jude 9) 5. ‘Michael and his angels fought against the dragon’ (Revelation 12:7) Ask: Which of these verses state that Michael is Jesus Christ? None of them. 4) The WT claims support from I Thessalonians 4:16 ‘the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call,with an archangel’s voice and with God’s trumpet’(NWT) Ask: If using an archangel’s voice makes Jesus an archangel, then having God’s trumpet makes Jesus to be God. Note: I Thessalonians 4:16 doesn’t explicitly say that Jesus Himself speaks with the voice of the archangel. When Jesus comes from heaven to rapture the church from earth, He will be accompanied by Michael the archangel. It is the archangel’s voice that shouts, not Jesus’ voice. Jesus doesn’t shout, but Michael does shout. This is like what happens at the end of the seven year tribulation, when Jesus returns ‘from heaven with his mighty angels’ (II Thessalonians 1:7). If angels accompany Christ at the end of the 7 year tribulation, then clearly Michael will accompany Christ at the rapture before the 7 year tribulation, so Michael cannot be Jesus. 5) In Jude 9, Michael did not have the authority to rebuke Satan, but Jesus did have the authority as follows: Jesus said ‘Get thee hence, Satan’ (Matthew 4:10) and ‘Get thee behind me, Satan’ (Mark 8:33) Michael said to Satan,‘The Lord rebuke thee’, proving that the only one with the authority to rebuke Satan is God. So, Matt. 4:10 proves that Jesus Christ is the Lord God. Ask: Since Michael could not rebuke Satan in his own authority, but Jesus could and did rebuke Satan, doesn’t that mean that Michael and Jesus are different persons? 6) All the angels (Michael included) are commanded to worship Christ. (Hebrews 1:6) 7) The writer of Hebrews asks several questions about angels and Jesus Christ, which prove them to be different persons: i) ‘Unto which of the angels said he at any time, thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee?’ (Hebrews 1:5) ii) ‘To which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?’ (Hebrews 1:13) iii) ‘Unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world to come (millennium)’ (Hebrews 1:13). iv) ‘For verily, he took not on him the nature of angels’ (Hebrews 2:16) v) Does Michael sustain all things by the word of his power? (See Hebrews 1:3). No! vi) Is it right to honour Michael the archangel just as you honour the Father? (John 5:23) 😎 Ask: Do good angels refuse worship? (Certainly). When John fell down to worship the angel, the angel rebuked him, saying ‘See thou do it not ....worship God’. (Rev 22:8,9). The Father commands all the angels (Michael included) to worship Christ. (Heb 1:6). The ‘proskuneo’ worship that angels refuse to accept but say to give to God, the Father commands thissame ‘proskuneo’ worship to be given to the Son. Hence the Son cannot be an angel, but must be God. True Bible students soon discover that Jesus is no mere angel, but God. This lesson must be learnt so they may ‘honour the Son just as they honour the Father’. (John 5:23 NWT). 9) Jesus Christ is unchangeable: ‘Jesus Christ the same, yesterday and today and forever’. (Hebrews 13:8). The WT view of Jesus is that He was Michael who changed to become a man, and who at his resurrection changed back to Michael the archangel. The Watchtower Jesus is changeable. They have a false and different Jesus. 10) Jesus Christ created all the angels, including the thrones and principalities of which Michael is a chief prince of a principality. ‘For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers’. (Colossians 1:16).

PLEASE, my friends, lets address ONE passage per message/reply. Some, but not ALL passages that show that Jesus is God are : 1) John 20:27-28 "Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing." ( this also shows that Jesus was raised BODILY ) "And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God." 2) John 1:1 "Ἐν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ Λόγος καὶ ὁ Λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν Θεόν Θεὸς ἦν ὁ Λόγος ", "En archē ēn ho Logos kai ho Logos ēn pros ton Theon kai Theos ēn ho Logos", "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and God was the Word" 3) Hebrews 1:8 "But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: " PLEASE do not reply with other verses that you think support your view. Address these 3 please.

I will no longer be addressing anything on this thread. This is due to the behavior and attitude of a few people. I have started and may start new threads if anyone wants to participate in those. Or, start a thread and mention me and i will respond. But, PLEASE, ONE topic per thread or just a couple of Bible verses per thread, otherwise i will not bother.

Oh, i am pretty sure there is ANOTHER reason they would want to destroy their records.

Wrong, they will say, oh, God tells us that God the father, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are each referred to as God. We are also told that there is only one God. Therefore, SOMEHOW, the three "entities" ( for want of a better phrase ) constitute the one, everlasting, eternal God. If we must reject everything that we cannot understand, God help us!