HollyW

1 hour ago, Shiwiii said:

Isn't that putting limitations on God? 

Evidently JWs believe that's something God can do, put limits on himself so that there are things that he keeps himself from knowing.  The interesting thing is that they allow for the Father to do this, limit what he knows and yet is still God; but they don't accord the Son the same thing, saying that because there's something he doesn't know that must mean he isn't God, even though the Bible certainly does say the Son is God.

 Anyway, not to get off the topic of your thread.  Are you satisfied that there is no scripture that says the resurrection at the end of the 1,000 years is actually DURING the 1,000 years?

8 hours ago, Melinda Mills said:

Interesting comment from Russell and Rutherford.

 

Glad you found their comments interesting, Melinda, since they were being published as the truth and are today being described as Bible truths Jehovah was blessing them with spiritual insight to rediscover. http://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1102012144#h=4

Holly

1 hour ago, Queen Esther said:

Thats not true ! Strange thoughts you have....  End of discuss for me !

Hmmmm....well then, 'Bye.

1 hour ago, Shiwiii said:

You're the one who said God didn't know Adam would sin. I just tried to clarify YOUR statement 

Here's those "strange thoughts" from the WT Reasoning book:

Quote

When God created Adam, did he know that Adam would sin?

Here is what God set before Adam and Eve: “Be fruitful and become many and fill the earth and subdue it, and have in subjection the fish of the sea and the flying creatures of the heavens and every living creature that is moving upon the earth.” “And Jehovah God also laid this command upon the man: ‘From every tree of the garden you may eat to satisfaction. But as for the tree of the knowledge of good and bad you must not eat from it, for in the day you eat from it you will positively die.’” (Gen. 1:28; 2:16, 17) Would you encourage your children to undertake a project with a marvelous future, knowing from the start that it was doomed to failure? Would you warn them of harm, while knowing that you had planned everything so that they were sure to come to grief? Is it reasonable, then, to attribute such to God?

Matt. 7:11: “If you, although being wicked [or, “bad as you are,” NE], know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more so will your Father who is in the heavens give good things to those asking him?”

If God foreordained and foreknew Adam’s sin and all that would result from this, it would mean that by creating Adam, God deliberately set in motion all the wickedness committed in human history. He would be the Source of all the wars, the crime, the immorality, the oppression, the lying, the hypocrisy, the disease. But the Bible clearly says: “You are not a God taking delight in wickedness.” (Ps. 5:4) “Anyone loving violence His soul certainly hates.” (Ps. 11:5) “God . . . cannot lie.” (Titus 1:2) “From oppression and from violence he [the One designated by God as Messianic King] will redeem their soul, and their blood will be precious in his eyes.” (Ps. 72:14) “God is love.” (1 John 4:8) “He is a lover of righteousness and justice.”—Ps. 33:5.

 

Also see the article in the 1/1/2011 wt: http://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/2011006

“Who really is the faithful and discreet slave whom his master appointed over his domestics, to give them their food at the proper time? Happy is that slave if his master on arriving finds him doing so. Truly I say to you, He will appoint him over all his belongings.” (Matthew 24:45-47) 

For decades the WTS has used this scripture as the basis for their claim to being God's sole channel of communication to mankind, and have claimed to have fulfilled the part "Happy is that slave if his master on arriving finds him doing so" in the years 1914 to 1919 when the Master (Jesus returned from heaven, inspected them, and found them faithful and discreet).

They taught that this began to occur in 33 C.E. when Jesus was leaving and going to heaven. Now that they've changed it to 1919, where did Jesus (the Master) go? According to the parable, he left his household and was due to return sometime in the future. According to the WTS, the master going away coincided with his ascension to heaven, that's why he appointed a faithful and discreet servant over his household. Now that the WTS has change this appointment to 1919, where was the Master going away to?


Holly

On 5/15/2016 at 5:13 AM, Ann O'Maly said:

I think critics are usually trying to redress the balance. Oftentimes the Watch Tower selectively quotes its own material to put a positive spin on a theological agenda or a part of its organisational history. E.g. the Bible Student views and expectations about 1914, or the 1922 'Advertise, advertise' speech that misses out a whole chunk about what exactly the Bible Students were advertising.  

Hi Ann,

Your reference to the "Advertise" speech stood out.  Quite right, the 'advertise, advertise, advertise' part is quoted a lot, but what they were being told to 'advertise', I think would be considered false advertising today.

Quote

[ZWT 11/1/22 p.337] For six thousand years God has been preparing for this kingdom. For nineteen hundred years he has been gathering out the kingdom class from amongst men. Since 1874 the King of glory has been present; and during that time he has conducted a harvest and has gathered unto himself the temple class. Since 1914 the King of glory has taken his power and reigns. He has cleansed the lips of the temple class and sends them forth with the message. The Importance of the message of the kingdom cannot be overstated. It is the message of all messages. It is the message of the hour. It is incumbent upon those who are the Lord's to declare it. The kingdom of heaven is at hand; the King reigns; Satan's empire is falling; millions now living will never die. 

Do you believe it? Do you believe that the King of glory ls present, and has been since 1874? Do you believe that during that time he has conducted his harvest work? Do you believe that he has had during that time a faithful and wise servant through whom he directed his work and the feeding of the house hold of faith? Do you believe that the Lord is now in his temple, judging the nations of earth? Do you believe that the King of glory has begun his reign? 

Then back to the field, 0 ye sons of the most high God! Gird on your armor! Be sober, be vigilant, be active, be brave. Be faithful and true witnesses for the Lord. Go forward in the fight until every vestige of Babylon lies desolate. Herald the message far and wide. The world must know that Jehovah is God and that Jesus Christ is King of kings and Lord of lords. This is the day of all days. Behold, the King reigns I You are his publicity agents. Therefore advertise, advertise, advertise, the King and his kingdom.

http://wtarchive.svhelden.info/archi...er/w1922_E.pdf

QE, you said " JEHOVAH  NEVER  KNEW  THAT  ADAM  WOULD  SIN.... !!!! "  

And when I asked you " Are you saying there was something the Father did not know? "  You said "YES!!!"

But now I see that you have edited that out and replaced it with " NOOOOO  -    ONLY  THE  FATHER  DID  KNOW  !!!!!!!! "

Two questions:

1. Do you disagree with the WTS on this?

2. And how were you able to edit your reply of "YES !!!" out of my post?

15 minutes ago, Queen Esther said:

NOOOOO  -    ONLY  THE  FATHER  DID  KNOW  !!!!!!!!

And that doesn't disqualify the Father from being God?

56 minutes ago, Queen Esther said:

JEHOVAH  NEVER  KNEW  THAT  ADAM  WOULD  SIN.... !!!!

SO  HE  WAS  MAKING  THE  FAST  SCRIPTURE  1. MOSE  3..15  !!!!

NOT  MORE  TO  SAY  TO  THAT.....  ;-(

 

 

Hi QE,

Are you saying there was something the Father did not know?

5 hours ago, Melinda Mills said:

Those who love Jehovah and are determined to obey his will and respect his sovereignty have no morbid fear of the second death.  The obedient angels in heaven do not fear it. There are happy and are serving Jehovah for eons on eons of time and will continue to live and serve him.  The same thing with the law of the land. Because the authorities have the sword (or the means to punish us) does not make us live in fear of them.

"(Romans 13:1-4) 13 Let every person be in subjection to the superior authorities, for there is no authority except by God; the existing authorities stand placed in their relative positions by God. ² Therefore, whoever opposes the authority has taken a stand against the arrangement of God; those who have taken a stand against it will bring judgment against themselves. ³ For those rulers are an object of fear, not to the good deed, but to the bad. Do you want to be free of fear of the authority? Keep doing good, and you will have praise from it; ⁴ for it is God’s minister to you for your good. But if you are doing what is bad, be in fear, for it is not without purpose that it bears the sword. It is God’s minister, an avenger to express wrath against the one practicing what is bad."

If we love Jehovah God and do not harbor any resentment of his right to say what is right or wrong or to do what he says, we are and will be OK. Remember the angels - they do not have immortality - just everlasting life.  They are forever in excellent company and  taking delight in their service to Him.

It kind of sounds like you're saying 'So what if people die after the 1,000 years, there still won't be any tears or mourning'.  Is that how you're reconciling Revelation 21:4  he will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore.

And I wonder at your comparison of humans with angels since Jesus did not die for the salvation of angels, he died for us.  

Hebrews 2:14  Therefore, since the children share in flesh and blood, He Himself likewise also partook of the same, that through death He might render powerless him who had the power of death, that is, the devil, ¹⁵ and might free those who through fear of death were subject to slavery all their lives. ¹⁶ For assuredly He does not give help to angels, but He gives help to the descendant of Abraham. ¹⁷ Therefore, He had to be made like His brethren in all things, so that He might become a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people.

5 hours ago, Melinda Mills said:

Adam (and Eve) could not be ransomed but provision was made to redeem the offspring in Adam's loins who had no say in the matter. God then set about making provision to ransom these ones when he uttered the first prophecy. (Genesis 3:15) The serpent (Satan) would be crushed in the head by the offspring or  seed, Jesus, the Messianic King, who would release mankind from sin, sickness and death(Galatians 3:16).

Remember that it was AFTER Adam and Eve had sinned that they were covered with garments of animal skin and were promised a savior.  An animal's life was sacrificed to provide the skins for covering the shame of Adam and Eve's nakedness, perfectly picturing the Lamb of God, Christ Jesus. 

Even the WTS says God "lovingly" provided these garments of skin "rather than leave them in their shame," that He "showed consideration for the feeling of shame that the sinners Adam and his wife now felt at being naked." There's no reason not to view their feelings of shame as repentance, and the covering God provided as being a foreshadowing of their savior, Jesus, whose shed blood would cover their sin/shame.

Consider for a moment how these two people viewed the ransom in relation to Adam and Eve:

5 hours ago, Melinda Mills said:

Adam was not imperfect and subject to sin like us.  He was perfect when God gave him that commandment. Disobedience would have been willful, not a mistake, or a case of temporary weakness.  Therefore these scriptures would have applied including the sentence of death in Genesis 2:16. That death would have been everlasting - the second death.

(Hebrews 10:26) For if we practice sin willfully after having received the accurate knowledge of the truth, there is no longer any sacrifice for sins left,

(James 4:17) ¹⁷ Therefore, if someone knows how to do what is right and yet does not do it, it is a sin for him.

Adam (and Eve) could not be ransomed but provision was made to redeem the offspring in Adam's loins who had no say in the matter. God then set about making provision to ransom these ones when he uttered the first prophecy. (Genesis 3:15) The serpent (Satan) would be crushed in the head by the offspring or  seed, Jesus, the Messianic King, who would release mankind from sin, sickness and death(Galatians 3:16).

 

Then "Adamic death" is actually the second death, the one in the lake of fire.  Aren't you saying that's the only death God could have been referring to in regard to Adam and Eve?

4 hours ago, Melinda Mills said:

See some insight into the "first death" and the second death.

 

*** ka chap. 9 pp. 157-158 pars. 26-27 The Post-Millennial Test of All Mankind ***

²⁶ The death symbolized by the “lake of fire and sulphur” is different from the death inherited by mankind from Adam in that it is not like a sleep terminated by an awakening but is a total destruction, an endless death. Death received from Adam as an inheritance was the ‘first death.’ This different kind of death as symbolized by the “lake of fire and sulphur” is therefore fittingly called “the second death.” This is what it stands for in the case of those humans on earth who enter into the thousand-year Judgment Day and who later do not get their names written in God’s “book of life.” The inspired Scriptures give the significance of the “lake of fire” for such ones unworthy of everlasting life, saying: “And death and Haʹdes were hurled into the lake of fire. This means the second death, the lake of fire. Furthermore, whoever was not found written in the book of life was hurled into the lake of fire.”—Revelation 20:14, 15.

²⁷ This divine explanation of what the “lake of fire” symbolizes is borne witness to a second time, a few verses later, where we read: “Anyone conquering will inherit these things, and I shall be his God and he will be my son. But as for the cowards and those without faith and those who are disgusting in their filth and murderers and fornicators and those practicing spiritism and idolaters and all the liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulphur. This means the second death.” (Revelation 21:7, 8) All such references to the “lake of fire” being so close together, in the same context in Revelation, chapters 19-21, then what the “lake of fire” means for those humans not found written on the “book of life” it means also for Satan the Devil and his demons. It means “the second death.” It does not mean necessarily dying a second time, but dying the second kind of death that the Bible speaks about, and that is an endless death.

 

*** ka chap. 8 What to Expect When the Millennial Judgment Day Ends ***¹⁶ The millennial Judgment Day will not fail of its purpose. By the time of its end all the willing and obedient will have been trained in true justice and righteousness to perfection. Their physical and mental infirmities inherited from Adam and Eve will be done away with. They are now capable in all respects to measure up to God’s absolute standards of righteousness, in themselves. Does Jesus Christ as the Chief Judge now bestow upon them the right to eternal life in a peaceful earth all glorious in paradisaic beauty? No! In this regard he does not act for God, for he knows that it is written: “God is the One who declares them righteous.” (Romans 8:33)

 

 If you wish to hear more of this, let me know.

When God told Adam that he would die, which death was being referred to?

Genesis 2:16  The Lord God commanded the man, saying, “From any tree of the garden you may eat freely; ¹⁷ but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die.”

Holly

5 hours ago, Melinda Mills said:

I am kind of rushing this week. We have lots of activities and a regional convention coming up this weekend.  So sometimes I might forget something or the discussion might be disjointed. Thanks for mentioning this point.  As a willful sinner Adam suffered the second death as well. All other willful sinners will suffer this death as well.  There are some humans who will not get a resurrection because of their willful actions and attitudes. That's why Jesus said all those in the memorial tombs will come out (John 5:28).   If you don't wish to use the term Adamic death, just use death. But try to learn something and discern the meanings as everything is not always spelled out.  Jesus said that if everything is written the world will not be able to contain the scrolls. (John 21:25)  Don't let us search the scriptures just because we can, let us let us pray for discernment and understanding so we may act and be saved.

(John 5:39) ³⁹ “You are searching the Scriptures because you think that you will have everlasting life by means of them; and these are the very ones that bear witness about me.

 

Ah, yes, John 5:39  You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me; ⁴⁰ and you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life.

Very powerful scripture.

Now, John 5:28   Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice,²⁹ and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.

Why did you call them "memorial" tombs?  I haven't found any Bible translation that has that other than the NWT.

Sounds like you're going to be busy for a while so I'll wait to hear from you again.  In the meantime, while you go about your activities, consider something for me, okay?

Consider: Revelation 21:3 With that I heard a loud voice from the throne say: “Look! The tent of God is with mankind, and he will reside with them, and they will be his people. And God himself will be with them. ⁴  And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away.”

And ponder how the truth of these verses can possibly be reconciled with a world where the second death, what you say is annihilation in the lake of fire, is forever a possibility for you and/or your loved ones and friends, every day that you wake up, for ever and ever, with no savior, no ransom, no mediator between you and God.

Holly

34 minutes ago, Eoin Joyce said:

Let the readers judge.

Thanks, Eoin, I knew you didn't have anything to support what you said.

Holly

5 hours ago, Eoin Joyce said:

Ad well as misrepresenting the teachings of Jehovah's Witnesses, this statement appears to confuse the concepts of immortality in the heavens and everlasting life on earth. I don't think it is necessary to revisit the many scriptures already quoted to establish the fact that the vast majority of human servants of Jehovah will live on earth as humans, but without the curse of sin and it's companion death.

The word in scripture for immortality (athanasia) is said to mean deathlessness as a quality of life. Because it goes hand in hand with incorruption, (1 Cor.15:53), the description at Heb.7:16 of Jesus having indissoluble life ("indestructible" NWT, rather than the weak "endless" in KJV) is apt. This is the quality or nature of life he enjoys and also is enjoyed by the 144000 who are resurrected to rule with him in the heavens.

However, by it's very nature, human life cannot be immortal. As long as humans are alive on earth, which will be forever (Ps.37:29), they will need to breath the right mix of gases, eat the right balance of nutrients, sleep when tired, eliminate waste products, repair worn or damaged tissue, and do whatever else is required to maintain physically the organism with which Jehovah endowed his human creation. And then, their obedience to the requirements of the creator, for whose purpose they were created and given that living organism, will ensure that that grant of life will be, just as the Bible says, everlasting but never immortal.

Excuse me, Eoin, you will have to offer some sort of evidence that I have in any way misrepresented JW beliefs in my statement that you are referring to:  Not so with the rest of JWs. Their faith in Jesus evidently doesn't give Jehovah the confidence to grant them immortality and he isn't so sure that they won't ever sin again.

In fact, what you went on to post actually substantiates that what I said is true about the beliefs of JWs, they don't expect to ever have everlasting life (other than their anointed class), they are told they will just have continuing life, for as long as they merit it on their own righteousness.

Having the perfection of Adam and Eve is not being saved. Having the holiness and righteousness of Jesus is what saves us; our belief in him gives us that and all of our sins are forgiven in God's sight because of that. Even the WTS recognizes this as a Bible teaching, it's just that they say it's only for a small segment of believers, numbering only 144,000, and not for any other believer. 

That's why Shiwii's question has still not been answered. There is no scripture that says there's a resurrection that takes place during the 1,000 years.  The resurrection that takes place at the end of the 1,000 years has been moved by the WTS to take place during the 1,000 years; and it has been changed from being a resurrection to being a self-help sort of educational program to teach people how to be as perfect as Adam was before he sinned, so that they can eventually meet all of God's standards mentally, morally, physically, and spiritually, and can then stand before God on their own merit rather than on the merit of Jesus Christ

Holly

20 minutes ago, Melinda Mills said:

Yes, Adamic death is what Adam suffered as well as all of us, his children, for the last 6000 years.

So Adam didn't suffer the second death....the death you say is never gone?

9 hours ago, Melinda Mills said:

Adamic death is what all mankind suffer. It will be done away with during the millennium. How else will people live until the end of the millennium and progress to perfection. 

Romans 5:12 says: (Romans 5:12) That is why, just as through one man sin entered into the world and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because they had all sinned—. 

 

 

 

 

 

Thanks for your reply, Melinda.

But you don't believe "Adamic death" is what Adam suffered, do you? 

The Lord God commanded the man, saying, “From any tree of the garden you may eat freely; ¹⁷ but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die.”

When God said to Adam, "you will surely die", was that a reference to what you call "Adamic death"?

Also, "progress to perfection"......where is that in the Bible in reference to the millennium?

Holly

4 hours ago, Melinda Mills said:

Answer for Holly

 

Rev 20:12  And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and scrolls were opened. But another scroll was opened; it is the scroll of life. The dead were judged out of those things written in the scrolls according to their deeds. 13 And the sea gave up the dead in it, and death and the Grave gave up the dead in them, and they were judged individually according to their deeds. 14 And death and the Grave were hurled into the lake of fire. This means the second death, the lake of fire. 15 Furthermore, whoever was not found written in the book of life was hurled into the lake of fire.

*** re chap. 41 God’s Day of Judgment—Its Joyful Outcome! ***

 The End of Death and Hades

¹⁷ Next, John describes something truly wonderful! “And death and Hades were hurled into the lake of fire. This means the second death, the lake of fire. Furthermore, whoever was not found written in the book of life was hurled into the lake of fire.” (Revelation 20:14, 15) By the end of the millennial Judgment Day, “death and Hades” are completely removed. Why does this involve a thousand years? Hades, the common grave of all mankind, is emptied when the last one in God’s memory is resurrected. But as long as any humans are tainted by inherited sin, Adamic death is still with them. All those resurrected on earth, as well as the great crowd that survives Armageddon, will need to obey what is written in the scrolls until Jesus’ ransom merit has been applied in fully removing sickness, old age, and other inherited disabilities. Then Adamic death, along with Hades, is “hurled into the lake of fire.” They will be gone forever!

¹⁸ Thus, the program that the apostle Paul describes in his letter to the Corinthians will come to completion: “For [Jesus] must rule as king until God has put all enemies under his feet. As the last enemy, [Adamic] death is to be brought to nothing.” What happens next? “When all things will have been subjected to him, then the Son himself will also subject himself to the One who subjected all things to him.” In other words, Jesus “hands over the kingdom to his God and Father.” (1 Corinthians 15:24-28) Yes, Jesus, having conquered Adamic death through the merit of his ransom sacrifice, will hand over a perfected human family to his Father, Jehovah. It is evidently at this point, at the end of the thousand years, that Satan is released and the final test takes place to determine whose names will remain permanently recorded in the scroll of life. “Exert yourselves vigorously” so that your name may be among them!—Luke 13:24; Revelation 20:5.

 

Dear Melinda, 

These four times that "Adamic death" appears in your post, none of them are in scripture, are they.  In fact, you had to insert "Adamic" into the quote of the scripture you used because it is not there in the Bible.  

 1 Corinthians 15:225-26  For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet. The last enemy that will be abolished is death.

Do you see why I said what you posted was at odds with the Bible?

Is it your belief that "Adamic death" is the death Adam suffered?

Holly

52 minutes ago, Melinda Mills said:

Everything you said is correct. Adamic death will be no more.  However the second death is the option to be exercised only by Jehovah to execute willful sinners.

Do some more study to understand the difference between second death, and Adamic death.  Gehenna, the lake of fire and second death are the same.

Adamic death?  Is that the death Adam suffered?

I must have missed that phrase "Adamic death" in my study of the scriptures that say death shall be no more, death will be swallowed up forever, death with be brought to nothing.

Revelation 21:4  and he shall wipe away every tear from their eyes; and death shall be no more; neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain, any more: the first things are passed away.

Isaiah 25:8 He will swallow up death forever, And the Sovereign Lord Jehovah will wipe away the tears from all faces. The reproach of his people he will take away from all the earth, For Jehovah himself has spoken it.

1 Corinthians 15:26 And the last enemy, death, is to be brought to nothing.

For those you say are resurrected during the millennium, when does Revelation 21:4 become a reality for them?

Holly

6 hours ago, Shiwiii said:

Can you provide scripture to back up this claim of a resurrection during the thousand year reign?  

The one they keep bringing up is the one the Bible says takes place, not during, but at the end of the thousand year reign.

And notice what those ones are judged on:  the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds. (Revelation 20:12)  Can their deeds save them?  Of course not, otherwise they might boast that they earned their own salvation, apart from Christ, which is actually what the WTS teaches them they will have to do, forever, they will continue to live for only as long as they merit it on their own.

The WTS teaches that only 144,000 people are declared righteous for life by God based on their faith in Jesus and he uses this declaration of righteousness to them as the basis for adopting them as his sons, acquitting them of all guilt due to sin, crediting them as being completely righteous persons with all their sins being forgiven and not charged against them. Once they have been declared righteous for life by God and adopted as his sons, he credits them with holiness because of their faith in the ransom sacrifice of Christ. Because of Jehovah's confidence in them that they will never sin again, he grants them immortality and incorruption in the first resurrection.

Not so with the rest of JWs. Their faith in Jesus evidently doesn't give Jehovah the confidence to grant them immortality and he isn't so sure that they won't ever sin again.

Holly

The numbers just never add up because the idea that there were less than 144,000 Christians from the first century until 1935 is countered by what the WTS has published in their own literature.

They published an article about the ten persecutions than took place from the first century to somewhere around 303 A.C. and the number of Christian martyrs just in the last one by Diocletian was over 850,000. These Christian martyrs were held up as examples for modern day JWs to imitate. But they must have realized their goof, or someone actually did write in about it, because a few months later there was one of the QFR that explained that the majority of those Christian martyrs they had praised so highly were actually just "professed" Christians, i.e. not true Christians at all.
 

But someone noticed something about the numbers:
 

Quote

Quoting John Houston's post:

HollyW, the answer is no! During Christ 'presence' which began when after sitting at his Father right hand for a time, he then was given the kingly authority. He first removed all of satanic influence from heaven. Such the war in heaven. Then those who were to be in heaven with him, the apostle's, his mother, those firstfriuts. And then any of the 144,000 dying faithful, would be trans formed in a twinkling of an eye not remaining in the grave. That is the understanding from scripture. Before the outbreak of the great tribulation, the remaining ones of the heavenly class will be called up to heaven, to take part in the removal of wickedness from the earth, being sealed with their brothers; kings and priests with Jesus Christ! 

Having destroyed governments and wicked off the earth, Satan and his demons are abyssed for the 1000 yrs., while Jesus reigns. During this time survivors are healed from sin and imperfection, the earth from the devastating effects of mankind before. Those who succumbed to death and are in Jehovah's memory will hear Jesus' voice as he calls them forth from the common Grave, back to perfect life under much better conditions. Learning from the "opened scrolls" all the earth will be united in the knowledge of Jehovah , as John seen in vision eating from the tree of life, so to speak. Gaining access to the status that Adam and Eve had before our Heavenly Father , before Satan is loosed one last time.

===============================================================

Thanks, John, for that explanation.  This resurrection you describe as being during Jesus' presence is the one in the following passage, isn't it?

1 Thessalonians 4:16:17  For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. ¹⁷ Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.

And you describe it as taking place over quite a long period of time, rather than as the short period of time the Bible shows it to be.

So....how do you explain that discrepancy?

 

Holly

 

 

5 hours ago, Melinda Mills said:

Short Answer

The second death will also be kept on the books for the possibility that someone in the future may decide to get 'ideas' about rebelling against God's sovereignty. However, after the final test that is highly unlikely. But God is always prepared. Nahum 1:9 says "Distress will not rise up a second time". All those who pass the final test will have proved their love for Jehovah and his sovereignty.

Thanks for your answer, Melinda.  I find it at odds with the Bible though:

Revelation 21:4  and he shall wipe away every tear from their eyes; and death shall be no more; neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain, any more: the first things are passed away.

It says "death shall be no more".

There's also these scriptures:

Isaiah 25:8 He will swallow up death forever, And the Sovereign Lord Jehovah will wipe away the tears from all faces. The reproach of his people he will take away from all the earth, For Jehovah himself has spoken it.

1 Corinthians 15:26 And the last enemy, death, is to be brought to nothing.

But thanks for your reply anyway.

Holly

On 6/21/2016 at 0:04 PM, John Houston said:

Shiwiii, how do you understand Paul's words at 1 Corinthians 15:23-28? There Paul spoke of those being brought back during "his presence". When he hands over the kingdom back to Jehovah at the end of the 1000 yrs, then all would be perfect, death will be swallowed up. All will have been raised from the grave. So how is it the way you reason does not jibe with what Paul is saying here in scripture? We all know that during Christ reign HIS VOICE, will call those from the grave, not his Father's correct? That is what John wrote at John 5:28,29. Jehovah gave his Son, this authority during this time with his corulers, to right things and after things in heaven and on earth is perfect as it was in the beginning, Jesus hands it back to Jehovah all in perfect condition. Humans  perfect, the earth globally perfect, heaven perfect. Now Satan is loosed one final time on us on earth. That is what scripture teaches. That is what you read from scripture, correct? The Bible is united in thought on this matter.

Hi John,

Are you saying the resurrection during "his presence" is the same one that takes place during the 1,000 year reign?