HollyW

1 minute ago, JWTheologian said:

Because ignorance is no excuse for not understanding. You call yourself a loyalist of Christ without understanding a word in scripture.

 

I know you're having a struggle here with this teaching because you probably were not aware of it and haven't taken the time yet to research it.  I did post the references from the WT publications, but you seem to have not taken them seriously.

6 minutes ago, JWTheologian said:

incorrect, the WTS teaches JW's have been taking the lead to obey God's Laws. After the 1000 reign, they will be known as God's Children, a perfect creation finally.

And then they'll be tested by Satan and a vast multitude of them will join him and go to war against the other JWs.  That's the teaching of the WTS.  Why do you not know this?

And the WTS teaches that even after that, those who survive that final test will still have death and annihilation in the lake of fire forever hanging over their heads for any mis-step they take.

3 minutes ago, Shiwiii said:

but the point is that they are JW's who have gained perfection, or so the society says. The Bible speaks of those who align with Satan after the 1000 year reign, and according to WT theology they have to be JW's and they have to be perfect. 

Yes, that's the WT teaching exactly.

As I posted earlier, directly from WT publications:

Quote

[w06 5/15 p.6-7] During his Thousand Year Reign, Jesus will apply the benefits of his ransom sacrifice to every obedient human. In time, all sin will thus be removed, and mankind will be lifted to human perfection. (1 John 2:2; Revelation 21:1-4) With the effects of Adam’s sin completely gone, perfect humans will meet God’s standards physically, mentally, morally, and spiritually. They will thus “come to life” in the fullest sense when they reach sinless perfection. (Revelation 20:5)

Revelation 20:7-9 “Now as soon as the thousand years have been ended, Satan will be let loose outof his prison, and he will go out to mislead those nations in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together for the war. The number of these is as the sand of the sea. And they advanced over the breadth of the earth and encircled the camp of the holy ones and the beloved city.”

[re p.292] 21. How will Satan’s last effort fare? He deceives “those nations in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog,” and leads them to “the war.” Who could possibly side with Satan after a thousand years of joyful, upbuilding theocratic rule? Well, do not forget that Satan was able to mislead the perfect Adam and Eve while they were enjoying life in the Paradise of Eden. And he was able to lead astray heavenly angels who had seen the bad results of the original rebellion. (2 Peter 2:4; Jude 6) So we should not be surprised that some perfect humans will be enticed to follow Satan even after a delightful thousand years of rule by God’s Kingdom.

On 7/11/2016 at 10:06 AM, Mr_VHC@WNF said:

I guess we are going to have to agree to disagree. The OP is about what happens when there is a change in understanding after your baptism. You are implying that you were tricked somehow. However, if you had been studying for several months you would've learned that changes happen, especially if you prepared for your studies well. That way when you were baptized you wouldn't be under any illusion as to what may happen after your baptism. But let;s just say you feel tricked or fooled what is the common reply. It is 1 Corinthians 13: 8 - 13 and Proverbs 4: 18 they are used hand in hand. But let's go further and say, you don't understand what either of those texts have to do with changes after baptism. The next thread of thinking, is to take you through history from Adam to present day showing you all the adjustments that took place leading down to Jesus then on to our day. I've touched on some of those things. But personally, it is so clear to me that adjustments in thinking have been happening since the beginning it is irrefutable, but maybe you don't believe the taking away of the kingdom from the Jews and to spiritual Israel was a significant adjustment. Did the apostles complain? Saying "this is not what I was baptized into."
 Did they look for excuses to disregard every explanation given or did they accept each adjustment? When they met with the older men of Jerusalem and the result was Acts 15: 28, 29, then it was conveyed to the existing congregations, do you think that was from men or God? I'm interested in your answer to that.

What is it we're agreeing to disagree on?  That the apostle Paul said true Christians would be recognized for their constant changing of what they say the Bible really teaches, just the way the WTS has been doing for it's entire history?

Is that what you're agreeing with?  Because I certainly disagree with that.

I wasn't implying anyone was tricked at all.  I thought I was being very clear that JWs change their beliefs when the men on the governing body tell them to because they are listening to those men as though to the voice of God, just as those men have told them to.

[w57 6/15 p.370] Let us now unmistakably identify Jehovah’s channel of communication for our day, that we may continue in his favor. Listen to the inspired answer to the situation, in Matthew 24:45-47 (NW): “Who really is the faithful and discreet slave whom his master appointed over his domestics to give them their food at the proper time? Happy is that slave if his master on arriving finds him doing so. Truly I say to you, He will appoint him over all his belongings.” And has he? Yes, particularly since 1919 has it been true that he has appointed the collective body of the anointed remnant over all the visible interests of the Kingdom. The “slave” then became responsible not only for ministering to the needs of the anointed body members but also for taking on the responsibility of preaching the good news of the established Kingdom to people of all nations. (Matt. 24:14) Such is true not by their determination of it, but because God himself has so directed. “God has set the members in the body, each one of them, just as he pleased,” is the way it is pictured in 1 Corinthians 12:18 (NW). It is vital that we appreciate this fact and respond to the directions of the “slave” as we would to the voice of God, because it is His provision.

If the "slave" is really to be listened to as you would to the voice of God, would you listen to a "slave" who said something like the child born in Revelation 12 is the antichrist?

4 hours ago, JWTheologian said:

 

You seem to be conflicted with wording. Between the word WAR, rather than CHALLENGE. The one who is incorrect her would be you, and your assumptions. Instead of giving it literal connotations, lookup the commentaries if you fail to understand the reasoning behind scripture.

Matthew Henry's Concise Commentary

 

20:7-10 While this world lasts, Satan's power in it will not be wholly destroyed, though it may be limited and lessened. No sooner is Satan let loose, than he again begins deceiving the nations, and stirring them up to make war with the saints and servants of God. It would be well if the servants and ministers of Christ were as active and persevering in doing good, as his enemies in doing mischief. God will fight this last and decisive battle for his people, that the victory may be complete, and the glory be to himself.

Meyer's NT Commentary

Revelation 20:7-10. After the completion of the one thousand years, Satan is let loose; then he leads the heathen nations, Gog and Magog, to an attack upon the saints. But fire from heaven consumes those nations, and Satan is cast eternally into the lake of fire.

The takeaway is, circumstance of the people. The battle will be once again between ideology, and those submitting themselves to false teachings will be eliminated by God and Christ.

That's what I thought---you don't know your own teaching, do you.  Don't feel too bad about it, you're not alone. I've come across quite a few JWs who weren't aware the WTS teaches that even when everyone on earth is a JW (and perfect, too), there will be JWs who will be persuaded to go to war against other JWs.  I've shown you the proof but you seem to have closed your eyes through the middle of my post so here it is again:

Revelation 20:7-9 “Now as soon as the thousand years have been ended, Satan will be let loose out of his prison, and he will go out to mislead those nations in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together for the war. The number of these is as the sand of the sea. And they advanced over the breadth of the earth and encircled the camp of the holy ones and the beloved city.”

Your belief is that during the millennium everyone will live in peace and harmony, anyone out of harmony with (enemies of) Jehovah will either not be resurrected or will be summarily annihilated during that time, until by the end of the 1,000 years everyone on earth will have reached perfection and will have become perfectly sin-free, as Adam was before he sinned. Everyone on earth will have studied from the new WTS publications especially designed for them to come to know Jehovah and his requirements, and will have chosen to serve him as his Witnesses.  But then Satan is released and persuades a vast number of these perfected JWs to go to war against their fellow JWs.

I hope you read it this time and do some research into the WTS publications I quoted earlier, the 5/15/2006 wt p. 6-7 and the Revelation Climax book p.292.  You call yourself a JW theologian, but you don't seem to be very well-versed in JW theology.

7 hours ago, JWTheologian said:

I don’t know if your simply unaware how to read scripture, or don’t have an understanding of it. With your own cited scripture, at what point does it state, Brother will go against Brother, if JUDGEMENT will come from CHRIST.

Another simple anecdotal, where do you keep coming up with Jw’s at the end of the 1000-year reign. After Armageddon, WE will have become God’s People, and after we return to a state that GOD intended his creation to be, there will be no separatism assumed.

So your deception of Brother against Brother will NOT be governed by man, but judged through Christ. So the WTS is NOT implying what you are thinking of. Christ will judge US as individuals, not man as a nation. That’s why it’s important to understand scripture.

I learned that at age 5. Isaiah 2:4

4 And He will judge between the nations, and will render decisions for many peoples; And they will hammer their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks. Nation will not lift up sword against nation, and never again will they learn war.

Do you believe the WTS has interpreted Revelation 20:7-9 incorrectly then?  I posted their interpretation of it.

Revelation 20:7-9 “Now as soon as the thousand years have been ended, Satan will be let loose out of his prison, and he will go out to mislead those nations in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together for the war. The number of these is as the sand of the sea. And they advanced over the breadth of the earth and encircled the camp of the holy ones and the beloved city.”

Your belief is that during the millennium everyone will live in peace and harmony, anyone out of harmony with (enemies of) Jehovah will either not be resurrected or will be summarily annihilated during that time, until by the end of the 1,000 years everyone on earth will have reached perfection and will have become perfectly sin-free, as Adam was before he sinned. Everyone on earth will have studied from the new WTS publications especially designed for them to come to know Jehovah and his requirements, and will have chosen to serve him as his Witnesses.  But then Satan is released and persuades a vast number of these perfected JWs to go to war against their fellow JWs.

 So, is the WTS wrong, or is this something you weren't aware of?

5 hours ago, JWTheologian said:

And how do you know that brother will be pitted against brother. Your concept is so flawed it would need no further discussion.

After God’s Day. Those resurrected will not be perfect human beings. Nor will they have exact knowledge of Gods Words through Christ. If after the cleansing and return to perfection time passes, anyone deemed unworthy will be justly judged by Christ.

But you do have a vivid imagination.

I don't know if you're being deceitful about what the WTS teaches, or if you don't know the WTS teaches that brother will be pitted against brother at the end of the 1,000 years.

[w06 5/15 p.6-7] During his Thousand Year Reign, Jesus will apply the benefits of his ransom sacrifice to every obedient human. In time, all sin will thus be removed, and mankind will be lifted to human perfection. (1 John 2:2; Revelation 21:1-4) With the effects of Adam’s sin completely gone, perfect humans will meet God’s standards physically, mentally, morally, and spiritually. They will thus “come to life” in the fullest sense when they reach sinless perfection. (Revelation 20:5)

Revelation 20:7-9 “Now as soon as the thousand years have been ended, Satan will be let loose out of his prison, and he will go out to mislead those nations in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together for the war. The number of these is as the sand of the sea. And they advanced over the breadth of the earth and encircled the camp of the holy ones and the beloved city.”

[re p.292] 21. How will Satan’s last effort fare? He deceives “those nations in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog,” and leads them to “the war.” Who could possibly side with Satan after a thousand years of joyful, upbuilding theocratic rule? Well, do not forget that Satan was able to mislead the perfect Adam and Eve while they were enjoying life in the Paradise of Eden. And he was able to lead astray heavenly angels who had seen the bad results of the original rebellion. (2 Peter 2:4; Jude 6) So we should not be surprised that some perfect humans will be enticed to follow Satan even after a delightful thousand years of rule by God’s Kingdom.

Quote

5 hours ago, JWTheologian said:

However, what is the excuse of Christendom today for the killing of anyone in the name of peace and security, and War. What is one fundamental commandment Christ agreed with the mosaic law, thou shall NOT kill. Who else other than Witnesses obeys Gods law, and yet call themselves Christian.

While Christians of today are imperfect, these JWs at the end of the 1,000 years are said to be 'perfect humans who meet God's standards physically, mentally, morally, and spiritually'.  You need to be considering what their excuse will be.

8 minutes ago, JWTheologian said:

Your point is? Harmony is not what you people define here other than criticize the Watchtower. I am a defender of the truth, and God. You people have maligned and distorted The Watchtowers truth enough for a true witness to step in. Just like Allen Smith did with the World News Media website.

Both of those quotes support the point that your thoughts are controlled by the WTS.....and that's whether you agree with them or not, and whether you think it is strange or unusual.

We can clear this up promptly with your answer to this question: Which "truth" is it that you're here defending, the one about the 144,000 being the faithful slave, or the one about the men on the governing body being the faithful slave?

4 minutes ago, JWTheologian said:

Before you criticize my comment? First learn to read. I neither made any suggestion the POPE ordered any type of vandalism on any ancient pagan shrine. However, there are unscrupulous people in Mexico that hate the Watchtower enough to orchestrate such a thing.

Later will find out. As for the POPE making comments about how fast Catholics in Latin America are converting to Witnesses? Google it and learn. I understand you pretenders of the truth need an avenue to criticize the Watchtower.

 You're the one who brought Catholics and the Pope into this discussion.  You also theorized that " a group of Catholic sympathizers pretending to be Jehovah’s Witnesses orchestrated that defilement to tarnish the Watchtower".  But you offer no evidence of this whatsoever, which makes it as lame as the accusation in the OP.  I don't think the WTS needs any help from Catholics, it's quite capable of tarnishing itself.

9 minutes ago, JWTheologian said:

  The Watchtower doesn’t control my thoughts or understanding,  

Really?

What do you make of this:

(Watchtower, August 1, 2001, p. 14) A mature Christian must be in unity and full harmony with fellow believers as far as faith and knowledge are concerned. He does not advocate or insist on personal opinions or harbor private ideas when it comes to Bible understanding. Rather, he has complete confidence in the truth as it is revealed by Jehovah God through his Son, Jesus Christ, and “the faithful and discreet slave.” By regularly taking in the spiritual food provided “at the proper time”—through Christian publications, meetings, assemblies, and conventions—we can be sure that we maintain “one-ness” with fellow Christians in faith and knowledge.—Matthew 24:45.  

And this:

(Watchtower, November 15, 2013, p.20) Simplified Edition: At that time, the direction that you receive from Jehovah’s organization may seem strange or unusual. But all of us must be ready to obey any instructions we may receive, whether we agree with them or not, because obeying these instructions will save our lives. 

Study Edition: At that time, the life-saving direction that we receive from Jehovah’s organization may not appear practical from a human standpoint. All of us must be ready to obey any instructions we may receive, whether these appear sound from a strategic or human standpoint or not.

13 hours ago, Mr_VHC@WNF said:

Holly, I feel like I'm regurgitating over and over again. I thought that by quoting the text about "babes" would be enough to explain itself. I;m going to simplify dramatically and just use very plain language. I hope you don't mind:

To explain how the scriptures apply to changes we've made since I was baptized

• My baptism has no bearing on the changes made by the organization. The changes would have occurred whether I became a witness or not
• 1 Corinthians 13: 8 - 13 demonstrates that gifts like knowlegde, prophesying and tongues would one day cease. These gifts were temporary things in order to grow the early congregation. 

Why do I consider what you've posted as being a worse case scenario?

• I consider you statements as only focusing on the faults of the Governing Body. You have not shown a balanced unbiased approach

Paul speaking about the growth of humans from babies to adults

• I agree Paul was not speaking about literal Babies, he was using similitude to demonstrate spiritual growth, which involves adjustments
• This time and others he was involved in adjustments in thinking: For example, uncircumcision became allowed, previously not allowed 
•  

When does the baby analogy apply

• That is correct, according to current thinking, in the 1870's God's people were still a work in progress and will be until the end of the thousand year reign (wt 92 7/15 Pg 30) 

I am willing to accept what they tell me

• My relationship is with Jehovah first, I care for this firstly by Bible reading and study. It is inferred that the organization is an extension of Jehovah's sovereignty his visible representative such as were the kings of Israel. Hence, if ever the king was to take the nation into apostasy, I must still respect the anointed one of Jehovah, just as David did Saul. It does not mean that I have to take part in anything that would affect my relationship with Jehovah.

 

Even though knowledge, prophesying, and tongues would one day cease, this does NOT fit the changes being made by the WTS for all these decades.  That's why I explained to you in some detail how these scriptures are not applicable to either the question in the OP nor to the history of the WTS.  Even in simple terms, it doesn't seem to have registered with you yet.

What would you consider to be a balanced and unbiased approach to a group of men who say to listen to them as you would to the voice of God?

If they said that because they are still babies, would you consider it wise to listen to them as you would to the voice of God?

The changes made between the Mosaic covenant and the New Covenant were inspired by God and outlined in his Word, such as circumcision being a spiritual event rather than a physical one, and in no way can this be used as an excuse for the changes the governing body has been making to the beliefs of JWs for all these years. 

That you are willing to accept what they tell you to believe reveals your dedication at baptism was not to God but to the governing body of the WTS organization, which is why you believe you are to change your beliefs about what the Bible really teaches whenever the men on the WTS governing body tell  you to change them.

9 hours ago, JWTheologian said:

While sensationalism is heightened? It is always prudent to know the subject one is referring to. The last Latin American Cities Conference the Pope attended in Santiago Chile this past April, outlined the scope in converts in Central America. Perhaps you should expand your knowledge and learn to criticize appropriately.

 

If you must include Pastor Russell in your discussion? Then learn the truth that it was the Catholic Priest that first attacked him, by calling him a none pastoral charlatan.

 

Shiwii is correct.  You're the one feeding into sensationalizing this without any support for your careless remarks.  Can you produce evidence that shows Catholics did this vandalism on the orders of the Pope?  If not, you should probably not say anything more about it. 

And...the truth is Nelson Barbour was NOT a Catholic Priest. Didn't you know that?  Or are you referring to the former Catholic priest your translation of John 1:1 is based on?  The one the WTS said was in touch with demons.

Don't even start on the negligence perpetrated toward abuse victims by the WTS with their two-witness rule and reluctance to report abuse crimes to the police and child welfare. They have as much to answer to God concerning this as does the Catholic church and any church that covers this crime up.

2 hours ago, JWTheologian said:

Exactly! where has Christendom been for those 2000 years, but waging war within themselves and other religions.  So the premise of CULTS!!! lie with how? lets at least define what Christendom has NOT done to properly follow in Christ Steps.

Evidently you've forgotten that the WTS teaches that even after a thousand years of studying their publications to finally become perfect and meet God's standards physically, mentally, morally, and spiritually, JWs will still be persuaded to go to war against other JWs.  Being perfect at that time, what's their excuse?!

2 hours ago, JWTheologian said:

Just like in anything, sensationalized by the media. Were these people actual JW’s? Some stipulate they were recent converted group of Witnesses that became overzealous and acted independently of The Watchtower Christian Teachings. However, even an uneducated witness wouldn’t care one way or the other to ancient Pagan shrines.

 

The only good answer would be, a group of Catholic sympathizers pretending to be Jehovah’s Witnesses orchestrated that defilement to tarnish the Watchtower in order to STOP an unprecedented convert from Catholic to Witnesses. Jehovah’s Witnesses are fully aware the attack the POPE has imposed on the Watchtower, and has committed its Bishops to stop the converts at all cost.

 

So if you’re going to read things about the Watchtower only to complain, and criticize it? Then review and read the fine print of other religions that Satan is using to attack the Watchtower. For the Watchtower, there is nothing new with religious attacks other than since the 80’s with the introduction of the internet. Scrupulous people tend to exaggerate a problem such as child abuse, that ALL religions are guilty of.

 

People seem to view a bad apple as a bad barrel. Sensationalist journalist will always over play facts. Remember, LATIN AMERICA is famous for that.

 

JWT, I don't know of any religious organization more critical than the WTS is of other Christians.  The very first WT was said to have been born because of a disagreement Russell had about the ransom with another Christian who was the editor of "Herald of the Morning".  

Making up stories about Catholics is just as bad as making them up about JWs.  You aren't doing any one any good by doing that.

Acts 4:10   let it be known to all of you and to all the people of Israel that in the name of Jesus Christ the Nazarene, whom you executed on a stake but whom God raised up from the dead, by means of him this man stands here healthy in front of you..........12  Furthermore, there is no salvation in anyone else, for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must get saved......17 So that this does not spread any further among the people, let us threaten them and tell them not to speak to anyone anymore on the basis of this name.” 18 With that they called them and ordered them not to say anything at all or to teach on the basis of the name of Jesus. 19 But in reply Peter and John said to them: “Whether it is right in the sight of God to listen to you rather than to God, judge for yourselves. 20  But as for us, we cannot stop speaking about the things we have seen and heard.”

Acts 5:28 “We strictly ordered you not to keep teaching on the basis of this name, and yet look! you have filled Jerusalem with your teaching, and you are determined to bring the blood of this man upon us.”+29 In answer Peter and the other apostles said: "We must obey God as ruler rather than men.   The God of our forefathers raised up Jesus, whom you killed, hanging him on a stake. 31 God exalted this one as Chief Agent and Savior to his right hand, to give repentance to Israel and forgiveness of sins.  32 And we are witnesses of these matters, and so is the holy spirit, which God has given to those obeying him as ruler.”

2 hours ago, JWTheologian said:

This seems a little farfetched, if you believe your understanding has a better claim to salvation than Christ. You mention “Mother”. Many Christians maintain an earthly view of Mary. However, Mary served her purpose as a vessel, nothing else.

 

Now, you seem to forget, or don’t wish to recognize is, no one comes to the Father, unless through me. All past covenants are now reliant on Christ Sacrifice. So, while you may wish to advertise frivolous websites? Only through the Glory of God and Christ will anyone gain everlasting life. That’s non-negotiable, including Witnesses, and or anyone claiming falsehoods through their own understanding, NOT scripture.

 

The last time I looked, The Watchtower has made every attempt as Christ did to educate the spiritually infirm. What has Christendom done, besides boast that Jesus is God, and there is no Armageddon, but there is a literal heaven and hell. Bible thumpers usually stick with hellfire, but that’s why learning scripture goes a long way.

 

Hi JWT,

I wonder where you get the idea that Christian churches are not fulfilling the great commission to make disciples and baptize them, teaching them to obey everything Jesus commanded.  The WTS hasn't even been around for 200 years, while the spread of Christianity has been going on for nearly 2,000 years!  

5 hours ago, Mr_VHC@WNF said:

I disagree with your tendency to seek the worst case scenario and go to one extreme or another. The text is quite clear that what you teach a baby is not the same thing as what you know as an adult. I think you know that deep down. A baby is not able to walk immediately is it? It is not able to speak immediately is it? It cannot think or reason like an adult can it? I wonder if you are a mother, if so does your child know all of your intentions and plans for them? I think understanding this would help an honest hearted person. But solid food only belongs to mature people doesn't it? I am not an elder, nor am I anything special in the congregation, but I took the rafter out of my own eye a long time ago, so I think I have freeness to speak on this matter.

Well, Mr V, you pressed me for my opinions about Paul's statements in 1 Corinthians 13:8-13 and I gave them.  Please tell me how anything in those scriptures apply to the changes the WTS has made in what they said were true Bible teachings, especially those since you were baptized.

Why do you consider what I've posted as being a worst case scenario?  

Even the WTS says that these scriptures are not applicable to the growth and knowledge humans go thru from babyhood to adulthood.  And Paul is not talking about that either.  He is speaking about spiritual matters, gifts of the Holy Spirit.  Nor is he talking about teaching wrong understandings and having to correct them.

Your analogy to a baby would only apply if you believed the leaders of the WTS resembled babies when they began back in the 1870's and still haven't reached adulthood, therefore you continue to follow what they say are true Bible teachings with the expectation that sometime in the future they will finally reach maturity and be able to teach as mature adults and not need to correct any misunderstandings.

But that isn't what you believe, is it.  You believe they are teaching what our heavenly Father and Christ Jesus want them to teach and that's why you are willing to accept what they tell you the Bible teaches, even if that changes what they told you the Bible was teaching when you were baptized.  Isn't that how you would answer the question in the OP?

8 hours ago, Mr_VHC@WNF said:

Holly, I wonder what you hope to achieve. When you answered so quickly without giving yourself time to think about your reply, I knew for certain, that you are not interested in actually changing you position. But like I said and I hope you are willing to at least agree to disagree. I don't hope to change you. But I would like to hear your opinion of Pauls statements. What was Paul saying, if not that changes should be expected?

Those scriptures there in 1 Corinthians 13:8-13 don't apply to the question asked in the OP, unless you're saying what Paul  was teaching were expectations and understandings that would have to be adjusted to other expectations and other understandings later in the future.  IOW that Jehovah had purposely let him teach errors in order for him to realize his need to look always to Him and His Word.

But if you believe those scriptures do apply to the changes and adjustments the WTS has made in what is supposed to be considered as true Bible teachings, let's take another look at them with that in mind.

1 Corinthians 13:8   Love never fails. But whether there are [gifts of] prophesying, they will be done away with; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will be done away with. 9 For we have partial knowledge and we prophesy partially; 10 but when that which is complete arrives, that which is partial will be done away with. 11 When I was a babe, I used to speak as a babe, to think as a babe, to reason as a babe; but now that I have become a man, I have done away with the [traits] of a babe. 12 For at present we see in hazy outline by means of a metal mirror, but then it will be face to face. At present I know partially, but then I shall know accurately even as I am accurately known. 13 Now, however, there remain faith, hope, love, these three; but the greatest of these is love. 

Is Paul saying that he expected prophesies themselves to be wrong and need adjusting, or that there would come a time when the Holy Spirit would not move anyone to prophesy because all prophecy had been fulfilled and prophesying would no longer be needed?

Was he saying that what the disciples spoke in tongues was wrong and would be adjusted sometime later, or was he saying there would be a time when the gift of tongues would not be needed....not that the messages and interpretations given for them had been mistaken.

If the knowledge Paul mentions in verse 8 is the ordinary knowledge common to all mankind thru experiences and studies, that of course would change, but he isn't referring to that kind of knowledge, is he.  He's referring to spiritual knowledge we receive thru the Holy Spirit.  Is he saying that the knowledge imparted by the Holy Spirit would be in need of re-examination and adjustment, or is he saying there would be a time when this gift of knowledge would not be needed?

You would have Paul saying that the partial knowledge and the partial prophesying he had was itself wrong, but what he's saying is that it is partial and not complete yet.  He's not saying he misunderstood anything and had to make adjustments in his understanding.

Great post, Ann.

There's also this in 1 Corinthians 9:19  For though I am free from all men, I have made myself a slave to all, so that I may win more. ²⁰ To the Jews I became as a Jew, so that I might win Jews; to those who are under the Law, as under^[i]the Law though not being myself under the Law, so that I might win those who are under the Law; ²¹ to those who are without law,as without law, though not being without the law of God but under the law of Christ, so that I might win those who are without law. ²² To the weak I became weak, that I might win the weak; I have become all things to all men, so that I may by all means save some. ²³ I do all things for the sake of the gospel, so that I may become a fellow partaker of it.

30 minutes ago, Mr_VHC@WNF said:

1 Corinthians 13: 8 Love never fails. But if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away with; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away with. 9 For we have partial knowledge and we prophesy partially, 10 but when what is complete comes, what is partial will be done away with. 11 When I was a child, I used to speak as a child, to think as a child, to reason as a child; but now that I have become a man, I have done away with the traits of a child. 12 For now we see in hazy outline by means of a metal mirror, but then it will be face-to-face. At present I know partially, but then I will know accurately, just as I am accurately known. 13 Now, however, these three remain: faith, hope, love; but the greatest of these is love.

These verses show that not only would changes happen but that Paul may have even expected them in his lifetime. We know now that he did not live to see the cessation of miraculous gifts. However, on a number of occasions he even dealt with people in the congregation denying or refusing to accept the changes from Judaism to Christianity - accepting physical uncircumcision, eating meat sacrificed to idols, the resurrection were some such changes - the meat thing was more about being guided by your conscience rather than a rule. But even greater changes were coming, and Paul may have thought they were coming in his lifetime...

 

You can't really be saying Paul was teaching wrong expectations and misunderstandings that he had adjust later.

16 hours ago, LloydSt said:

1. Holly said: " If the men on the governing body did claim to be infallible, what would that change for you?"

Why do I feel like I'm being set up for some quote from many years ago that someone might interpret as the governing body or a Watchtower president saying they are infallible?

So let's skip ahead.  Here's the answer to that upcoming quote (if I have guessed right).  While it may appear that they had been saying that they were infallible, actually they likely did believe that what they had come to believe was correct, perhaps even as if it came from Jehovah's mouth.  But in that, they could have been somewhat mistaken.  The happy conclusion is that, as demonstrated by the quote from the Revelation book, that, as a group, they humbled themselves and purposefully admitted that they were NOT infallible.

 

The point I was making is that nothing would change for you even if the men on the governing body did claim to be infallible.  You accept and obey what they say just as though they do claim to be infallible.

8 minutes ago, HollyW said:

1. If it's just a mere attempt at understanding the Bible, should it really be presented as being the truth that all members of the WTS must accept or be cast out?  These attempts, as you call them, by the WTS were said to be the true teachings of the Bible and had to be accepted in order for a person to qualify as approved association for the other members of the WTS.

2. Could you be more specific?  Earlier I think you said the winds of Ephesians 4:14 were referring to the doctrines Christians have believed for nearly two centuries.  Did you have something else in mind now?

 

The edit option expired so I'll attempt it this way:  Actually it was the darkness  of 1 John 1:5 that you said "referred to the major misunderstandings that Christendom still promotes today,"

15 hours ago, LloydSt said:

1. Holly said: "Others have also posted using the comparison of science to what we believe the Bible teaches.  I don't agree with this comparison because of what the Bible tells us. 

For instance, Paul did not expect his teaching to change: Galatians 1: 8  But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed! ⁹ As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed!"

Holly c'mon.  Seriously?  We're talking about the attempt at understanding the Bible to be able to preach what it says correctly.  You comment would mean that anything written by anyone in an attempt to understand God's word would by definition be "another gospel".  And it would require that someone be absolutely right about what they wrote on their first attempt and that they couldn't change.  That is ridiculous and unreasonable.  We've already covered this  

2. Holly said: "He also cautioned against being "tossed here and there by waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine," Ephesians 4:14."

May I suggest that the very winds Paul was talking about are the non-witness ideas being floated here!

 

1. If it's just a mere attempt at understanding the Bible, should it really be presented as being the truth that all members of the WTS must accept or be cast out?  These attempts, as you call them, by the WTS were said to be the true teachings of the Bible and had to be accepted in order for a person to qualify as approved association for the other members of the WTS.

2. Could you be more specific?  Earlier I think you said the winds of Ephesians 4:14 were referring to the doctrines Christians have believed for nearly two centuries.  Did you have something else in mind now?

2 hours ago, CharlieM said:

(Revelation 1:1, 2) A revelation by Jesus Christ, which God gave him, to show his slaves the things that must shortly take place. And he sent his angel and presented it in signs through him to his slave John, 2 who bore witness to the word God gave and to the witness Jesus Christ gave, yes, to all the things he saw. 

This is the "chain of command" Jehovah > Jesus > Faithful Slave (GB). We cannot say we're loyal to Jehovah without being loyal to Jesus and the organization. The good thing, though, is that Jehovah and Jesus are at the top of the chain, so I don't think that the GB will/can mess up so badly that it affects all the publishers around the world negatively. Just remember who is in charge.

Maybe good to watch the video "Respect Jehovah's authority" again.

Have a great day all!

Thanks Charlie, but up until a few years ago you were saying the chain of command was Jehovah > Jesus > Faithful Slave (144,000).  And that had been changed from being just the one man, Russell, which belief his successor felt was doing violence to scripture by excluding the rest of the 144,000.  Was this also an error, as they say 1975 was, that Jehovah permitted the faithful slave to make in order for them to understand they need to always look to him and the Bible?

1 hour ago, Mr_VHC@WNF said:

Holly, maybe you've not read 1 Corinthians 13: 8 - 13? What was it that Paul expected to change? What was the current system in Paul's day? What would eventually happen? Even though some things would change, what would remain unchanged? What then is the identifying mark of Jesus followers? John 13: 35 compare 1 Corinthians 13: 8a

By the way, the personality of sheep varies from country to country, not all sheep are naturally meek or obedient. Jesus however, did say that his sheep know his voice. John 10.

 

I was just referring to the cute drawing of the sheep in your profile.

How do those scriptures support the idea of being required to accept certain teachings you believed were the true teachings of the Bible, only to have them changed later?