7 hours ago, Arauna said:

To reply to Holly -  Jehovah chose the slave after 1914 - not because they were perfect and had everything right. He chose them because he could work with them.... But as Malachi 3 indicates - they went through a difficult period of cleansing because they were not completely acceptable to Jehovah - the unclean state they were in. 

 

Let's look at Matthew 24:45:

Who then is the faithful and sensible slave whom his master put in charge of his household to give them their food at the proper time? 

It isn't saying a choice was made "because he could work with them" but that they would be serving "food at the proper time". This "food", as you know, is considered to be what the WTS was teaching in its books and magazines, etc. up to 1919.

This is how it is described in the WTS book, "God's Kingdom of a Thousand Years Has Approached":

[ka p.350, par.40] The serving of food, the right sort of food, at the proper time was the issue. It had to be according to this that a decision must be rendered by the returned master...........Down to 1919 C.E. they had endeavored to give “food at the proper time” to the “household of faith” or the “domestics” of the heavenly Master. They did this despite interference by persecutors and the warring nations. Not only was the regularity in serving the spiritual food a problem, but the quality of the food itself was to be considered.........they met the test.

So Jesus' decision would have been based on an examination of what the WTS had been teaching up to 1919, just as the WTS says he judged (and rejected) all other religious organizations based on their teachings up to that same date.

In the WT of June 1, 2001, on page 14, it says this: "Logically, to enjoy God’s backing, one must teach only what God reveals in his Word and reject teachings based on human wisdom or tradition."

So, according to the WTS, for it to have God's backing as his organization, it would have to meet at least four standards as presented by the WTS above:

It would have to have the right teachings.

It would have to teaching them at the right time.

Its teachings would have to be revealed by God in His Word.

Its teaching would NOT be based on human wisdom or tradition.

8 hours ago, Arauna said:

When the organization uses pictures of Russell it is because of the "historic" nature of our history.  This is part of our history (something that is past) so we acknowledge the past - but most of our teachings have moved on since then and new light has been shed on many things.  So he is part of our history - not a cult figure. 

You seem to be using a double standard here.  When the WTS brings him up and prints drawings and pictures of him, and even invites you to imagine yourself there during his time, you say that's just part of your history; but if I or someone else asks you questions about Russell and his teachings, you imply that's making him a cult figure. 

8 hours ago, Arauna said:

If I was an opera star 40 years ago -  and there are pictures of me in a newspaper now.... people will understand that this is part of my history - but I do not sing as beautiful as I did at that time.  So if there are any recordings available - then I can listen to it as part of history - to use this as an illustration.   I often listen to Caruso, Callas and many of these artists and compare their performances with the new ones offered today.... so I see it in its historical context.  But I also realize that these artists are "dead" and cannot contribute any more to society.  Similarly - Russell has been dead 100 years - so all of us understand that he cannot contribute any more to new thoughts on the Bible. He is  part of our "history"..  So it is in this context that our new publications have references to him.

 I don't think the claim of the WTS as being the sole channel of communication to mankind is based on what was sung by Caruso, Callas, or any of the many artists to whom you are referring. If it were, we'd be examining their work. But, no, the WTS   claim is based on what they were teaching up to 1919, and those teachings have Russell written all over them.  

On 9/4/2016 at 9:27 AM, Jay Witness said:

 

Who were those in “prison” who Jesus preached to during the three days of his death?

1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit; ¹⁹ in which also He went and made proclamation to the spirits now in prison, ²⁰ who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water.

We're given the time frame of the days of Noah and the disobedient ones were mankind, not angels, for why would God punish humans if angels were the ones being disobedient during those days of Noah.

11 hours ago, Arauna said:

I see the debate still going on.  Frankly - I think people should not care much about what one person (Russell) believed or if he had the date correct about the "times of the nations".  We should not be making a cultish adherence to any person even if he proved to be an "infant" - at a starting point of something that would grow large in the good fruit it produces.

 

Arauna, are you aware of the picture and letter at the beginning of the WTS 2014 book, "God's Kingdom Rules!" ?  http://wol.jw.org/en/wol/lv/r1/lp-e/0/21821

11 hours ago, Arauna said:

As the point in the comment above demonstrates - Russell and his friends started looking into it at this time (many study groups did) - and in line with the new 'scientific' field of archeology - they thought there was something in the pyramids - like everyone else!  So as I said before ... why debate about unimportant things.... We must evaluate everything said by Russell within the time period it occurred.  We now  understand the "times of the gentiles" and it was only AFTER 1919 that Jehovah appointed this group of people for the work they are now doing world-wide: the life-saving preaching work....  They have a job to do.... and they are presently doing it to the best of their ability. Jehovah gives imperfect people the opportunity to demonstrate their love for Him.  He gives us dignity through this work!

The appointment of the faithful slave made AFTER 1919 is said to have been based on an examination of what had been teaching UP TO 1919.  It was NOT based on what the WTS is teaching today, but on what Russell was teaching.

If you've looked at the beginning of the book I linked to above, you've seen a picture of Russell on that day in October of 1914 in the dining hall announcing that the Gentile times had ended.  You've also seen a letter from the Governing Body to picture yourself there.  How does that relate to your statement "people should not care much about what one person (Russell) believed".

On 9/4/2016 at 9:28 AM, Jay Witness said:

What is the difference between everlasting life and immortality?

For JWs the difference is in who is getting it.

The WTS says that the tree of life is symbolic of God's provision for sustained life....immortality for the 144,000.....continuing life for everyone else (until they sin and die in the lake of fire.) The "continuing life" is viewed as being everlasting unless they sin and are annihilated in the lake of fire.

1 Corinthians 15:53-54 is interpreted by the WTS as being only for the 144,000 and they say means that they will be given newly created spirit bodies activated with their memories, character, personality-----their life pattern.

 For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality. ⁵⁴ But when this perishable will have put on the imperishable, and this mortal will have put on immortality, then will come about the saying that is written, “Death is swallowed up in victory."

But this is saying in the resurrection the physical body which is mortal and perishable will be clothed with, or will put on, immortality and incorruption.  That's how our physical, mortal, perishable bodies become spiritual, immortal, imperishable bodies.

The location of the great crowd is given to us in Revelation 7:9  as "standing before the throne and before the Lamb".

Up until 1935, the WTS believed and taught that the great crowd was in heaven, a vast group of believers said to be not quite as faithful as the 144,000, but still heaven-bound, spirit-anointed, emblem-partaking, witnesses of Jehovah.

Now, I have heard some JWs call this belief  "crap" and "baloney", but the WTS says Russell and his followers who believed this were being blessed with spiritual insight by Jehovah to rediscover these Bible truths. (see http://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1102012144 ) And even after Russell's death and after Jehovah is said to have cleansed Russell's followers and appointed them in 1919 as the faithful slave of Matthew 24:45, they still believed this.

But then in the early 1930's there was a third class of believers invented by the WTS President at the time, Joseph Rutherford.  He called them Jonadabs, or Johanadabs, and identified them as a group of believers whose future destination was not heaven but earth.  During a speech Rutherford gave at a 1935 convention, he asked those of this group to stand up.  Then he pointed to them and announced that they were the great crowd.

Think about that for a minute.  Do you wonder why there might have been a sudden hush at the convention?  It's said there was one.  Probably from an intake of breath from those who had believed prior to this that they were members of the great crowd and had stayed seated when those who believed they would be on earth had stood up at Rutherford's invitation.  Or maybe from the whooshing sound of the doors of heaven closing in their faces.

3 hours ago, moggy said:

Thank you for that excellent piece of research, Holly W. The math does not really stack up, objectively at least, no matter how much the Watchtower writers gainsay their approach to this subject.

For instance, I presume their use of the expression "Professed Christians" is designed to militate against any imbalance in the numbers when aligned with modern day figures. But what exactly is a "professed" Christian? It is my understanding that the anonymous writers of Watchtower literature often refer to persons of authority within the Movement who professes to be of the anointed. So what then is a "professed anointed Christian" within the fellowship of the Watchtower?

Just thinking allowed.

Hi Moggy!  I guess using "professed" means they weren't real Christians.  It's puzzling why they were being put forth as positive examples for modern day JWs, as the article from 9/1/1951 is doing.

The WTS really needs to rethink their whole 144,000 concept, not only because the numbers just don't add up, but because the Bible shows the 144,000 to be Jewish Evangelists on earth during the Great Tribulation, while the great crowd are Christian Martyrs in heaven, having been martyred during the Great Tribulation.

2 hours ago, Arauna said:

Ok, you are obviously stuck on Russell.... in the 1800 's - which is crazy because JWs have moved on since 1919 -  

No, JWs haven't moved on since 1919.  They keep going back to 1919 and their supposed appointment as the faithful slave.  In the 2014 book, "God's Kingdom Rules!", right at the beginning there is a letter from the Governing Body inviting you to picture yourself back in 1914 in the dining hall at Bethel in NYC when Russell walks in and announces that the Gentile times have ended.  

Yes, Russell and his belief that Christ's return could be calculated by determining the length and termination point of the Gentile Times are the subjects of this thread.  I give you again my OP:

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Can the timing of Jesus' Second coming, or Presence, be calculated through Bible chronology?

It's been brought to my attention that C.T. Russell, the founder of the WTS, believed Christ's return could be calculated by determining the length and termination point of the Gentile Times and by calculating the close of 6,000 years of human history.

These scriptures speak to this directly and indicate that it is not so:

Matthew 24:36-39 "But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone. for the coming of the Son of Man will be just like the days of Noah.  For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and they did not understand until the flood came and took them all away; so will the coming of the Son of Man be.

Mark 13:32-37 "But of that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone. Take heed, keep on the alert; for you do not know when the appointed time will come.  It is like a man away on a journey, who upon leaving his house and putting his slaves in charge, assigning to each one his task, also commanded the doorkeeper to stay on the alert.  Therefore, be on the alert---for you do not know when the master of the house is coming, whether in the evening, at midnight, or when the rooster crows, or in the morning---in case he should come suddenly and find you asleep.  What I say to you I say to all, 'Be on the alert!'"

Acts 1:7 He said to them, "It is not for you to know times or epochs which the Father has fixed by His own authority.

On to your post:

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Arauna said:

Russell had many things right - the mortality of the soul, Jehovah's name just to name only 2.  He was not the only one who understood these things to be so.  It is true that he attended other groups which existed in this time when he started to study the bible - because there was a general awakening to study the Bible among the populace.... but he was the one that wanted to publish all he knew and used all his resources to do so. He was also the one who received all the hateful publicity from the religious leaders. 

Russell had everything wrong about 1914 and he provided the very criteria that proved him wrong.  For reference, see his book "The Time Is At Hand", written in 1889, pgs. 76-79, where he lists seven proofs that were going to show whether or not 1914 was really the end of the times of Gentiles as he claimed it would be and as JWs today claim it was.

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Arauna said:

So it seems you are determined to ignore the 2 different Greek words pertaining to "coming" (I mentioned it above) and keep referring to Russell"?  

I haven't ignored them at all.  It's obvious you have one that applies to 1914 and the other to an unspecified date sometime in the future.  This thread is about 1914 and whatever Greek word you are attaching to it.  And, Yes, this thread is about Russell and his ability to calculate a date unknown to Jesus and the angels and the early Christians, so that's why Russell is being referred to.

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Arauna said:

For as they were in those days before the Flood, eating and drinking, men marrying and women being given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark,  and they took no note until the Flood came and swept them all away, so the 'presence' of the Son of man will be..... This is referring to Jesus's 'presence' - when he is busy ruling - before the final arrival of the destruction to come. Allan also explained this.

And you say this took place in 1914 but Jesus said "of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone. for the coming of the Son of Man will be just like the days of Noah." (Mt. 24:36; Mk. 13:32)

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Arauna said:

But please can you explain to me the following? Who the faithful and discreet slave is who  is "preaching the kingdom in the entire inhabited earth" to all the tribes and nations.... this is a sign of the end is it not in Matthew 24?  Verse 14 says so.  So this is a clear sign that we are in the time of the end -  then also read verse 43-45.  

Preaching the gospel of God's Kingdom has not been limited to the past 100 years!  It's been preached at least since the first century, and is still being preached today by faithful Christians.  All Christians are called to be faithful and sensible in fulfilling their ministries and walking with the Lord Jesus, ever on the alert for his return because we don't know when it will be.  It's a warning to stay on the alert for all Christians, it isn't a script for a play with various parts assigned to certain actors, nor is it a call for an elite clergy class being elevated over others.

Matthew 24:43-45 support what I've been saying, Jesus' return cannot be calculated from the Bible:

 But be sure of this, that if the head of the house had known at what time of the night the thief was coming, he would have been on the alert and would not have allowed his house to be broken into. ⁴⁴ For this reason you also must be ready; for the Son of Man is coming at an hour when you do not think He will.  Who then is the faithful and sensible slave whom his master put in charge of his household to give them their food at the proper time?

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Arauna said:

Also go on to explain to me Luke 21: 24 , "and Jerusalem will be trampled on by the nations* until the appointed times of the nations* are fulfilled."   What is this appointed time of the nations?   How do we know what it is  - and how long is it? Did God just put it there as decoration?... to sound important??? or does it have specific meaning for those who search through the scriptures in the time of the end. Daniel 12: 4 + 3 says: "As for you, Daniel, keep the words secret, and seal up the book until the time of the end.Many will rove about,and the true knowledge will become abundant.”³  “And those having insight will shine as brightly as the expanse of heaven, and those bringing the many to righteousness like the stars, forever and ever. (they will be preaching). 

Look at the context of Luke 21:24.

Luke 21:20 "But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then recognize that her desolation is near. ²¹ Then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains, and those who are in the midst of the city must leave, and those who are in the country must not enter the city; ²² because these are days of vengeance, so that all things which are written will be fulfilled. ²³ Woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days; for there will be great distress upon the land and wrath to this people; ²⁴ and they will fall by⁽the edge of the sword, and will be led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled under foot by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

Doesn't that sound to you like what happened in the year 70 A.D.?

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Arauna said:

Who is Michael who "will stand up?": in this verse Daniel 1: “During that time Miʹchael will stand up, the great prince, who is standing in behalf of your people. And there will occur a time of distress such as has not occurred since there came to be a nation until that time. "

Is it part of the timeline of God? Matthew 24 also refers to Daniel  does it not?  So this shows that some prophesy in Daniel has reference to the end...

Michael is the arch angel.  How are you relating this to Jesus' return in 1914?

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Arauna said:

I suggest you read : What does the Bible really teach.... and analyze all the scriptures about the " trampling of the nations" and the one who "has the right to the throne".

I am done now.  There are many people out there who want to know what these scriptures mean....

Thank you for the suggestion, and, if this is Good-bye, thank you for your time and consideration.

3 hours ago, Arauna said:

There are too many scriptures which talk of Jesus's return " in the clouds". Jesus went back to heaven in a cloud and he told his followers his return would be the same.  The whole world did not see him go back to heaven - only his followers were present.  Today his true disciples understand that he is already ruling. 

And I again quote Revelation 12: 6- 12.  Go and read it.. It is absolutely clear that Jesus would start ruling in heaven and there would still be a period of time on the earth after this.

You're speaking of Acts 1:9-11 where the disciples watched him visibly go into heaven:

Acts 1:9 And after He had said these things, He was lifted up while they were looking on, and a cloud received Him out of their sight. ¹⁰ And as they were gazing intently into the sky while He was going, behold, two men in white clothing stood beside them. ¹¹ They also said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into the sky? This Jesus, who has been taken up from you into heaven, will come in just the same way as you have watched Him go into heaven.”

But in 1914 the Bible Students were not aware of his return at all because they were saying he had already returned in 1874. 

11 minutes ago, Arauna said:

The scripture is Matt 24:  it  implies that those who are being mislead will call out : "there is the Christ" - there is the Christ" (because they expect him in the flesh). 

²³  “Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look! Here is the Christ, or, ‘There!’ do not believe it.²⁴  For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will perform great signs and wonders so as to mislead, if possible, even the chosen ones.²⁵  Look! I have forewarned you.²⁶  Therefore, if people say to you, ‘Look! He is in the wilderness,’ do not go out; ‘Look! He is in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it ²⁷  For just as the lightning comes out of the east and shines over to the west, so the presence of the Son of man will be.²⁸  Wherever the carcass is, there the eagles will be gathered together.   

Isn't it more likely that just as lightning is visible from east to west, that Jesus' return WILL be visible and that's why we aren't to believe those who say, 'Look! Here is the Christ', or "There!' or 'He is in the wilderness.'  Because He will be visible to all, 'every eye will see Him.'

Dear Arauna,

It is through Jesus that God forgives all our sins.  I pray you read Psalm 103, especially verse 12:  As far as the east is from the west, so far has He removed our transgressions from us.

Our love for Jesus and His love for us compels us to walk in his footsteps.  We aren't saved by our own merit, but by the righteousness of Jesus.

8 hours ago, Arauna said:

 the 'coming' ('Parousia' / presence) and the final 'coming / 'erkhomenon'

And with this I am closing this discussion..... I do not expect you do agree with me.... believe what you please.....

As per the OP*, we're talking about 1914, the 2nd Coming or Presence of Christ.  You've already said that the timing of the final coming is an unspecified date.

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* 

Can the timing of Jesus' Second coming, or Presence, be calculated through Bible chronology?

It's been brought to my attention that C.T. Russell, the founder of the WTS, believed Christ's return could be calculated by determining the length and termination point of the Gentile Times and by calculating the close of 6,000 years of human history.

These scriptures speak to this directly and indicate that it is not so:

Matthew 24:36-39 "But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone. for the coming of the Son of Man will be just like the days of Noah.  For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and they did not understand until the flood came and took them all away; so will the coming of the Son of Man be.

Mark 13:32-37 "But of that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone. Take heed, keep on the alert; for you do not know when the appointed time will come.  It is like a man away on a journey, who upon leaving his house and putting his slaves in charge, assigning to each one his task, also commanded the doorkeeper to stay on the alert.  Therefore, be on the alert---for you do not know when the master of the house is coming, whether in the evening, at midnight, or when the rooster crows, or in the morning---in case he should come suddenly and find you asleep.  What I say to you I say to all, 'Be on the alert!'"

Acts 1:7 He said to them, "It is not for you to know times or epochs which the Father has fixed by His own authority.

6 hours ago, Eoin Joyce said:

Well @HollyW, I think that just about rounds it off for me. Your able grasp of the allegory, ability to reassemble it's detail and to imaginatively extend it's application indicates clearly that you have understood every word of my postings.

I will still track the topic in case any others contribute a useful perspective. 

Thank you for the discussion, Eoin, and for confirming that, at least for you, it really doesn't matter if the Gentile times ended in 1914 or not.   Since that means the question in the OP is of no importance nor interest to you, I wonder what, speaking in nautical terms, prompted you to put an oar in.

3 hours ago, Arauna said:

Well as I said before - in my comment above - one can live in the past - in the time of Russell - in the 19th century! Russell still had the date right!  All Jehovah's people have definitely moved on and received much more light since then - all the prophecies coming to their conclusion as predicted.. 

Some people are like an abusive spouse - who only look to the past and hold onto grudges so he-she can still have ammunition to beat the other spouse with.  This kind of spirit is not productive....   

The Jewish leaders were expecting Jesus around the time he was to start preaching because they asked John the Baptist if he was the Messiah when he started baptizing people. They were reading Daniel - for sure... They knew it was the time for him to 'come'.  When Jesus did not fit the picture they had in mind - the rejected him.  The stone (Jesus) became the stumbling block. .... 

You have not explained to me your version of the fulfillment of Revelation 12: 6-12 and the scripture which talks about Jesus ruling amidst his enemies.... and how you explain the two different Greek words for the English translation  "come".  

What you're saying isn't indicative of what the GB is saying though, Arauna.  Time and again their publications refer back to Russell.  Earlier I post an example of that from the 2014 book, God's Kingdom Rules!, where you are invited to imagine yourself back to October 1st or 2nd of 1914 in the dining room at Bethel in NYC when Russell walked in and made his announcement that the Gentile times had ended.  Surely you aren't referring to your own religious leaders as being "like an abusive spouse", are you, since they're the ones who keep referring back to Russell.  There are more examples of this, but the most salient point is that the current status of the WTS is dependent on an inspection of what they were teaching up to 1919.  Have you ever gone back and studied what Jesus would have been inspecting?  The book published in 1917, The Finished Mystery, as Russell's 7th volume of his Studies in the Scriptures series would have been among those things inspected by Jesus to cause him to conclude Russell's Bible Students should be appointed as God's sole channel of communication to mankind.  Have you ever read it?

Russell didn't have the date right at all.  He said it was going to be the start of the 1,000 years, the Millennium, that Armageddon would be over by then, that all governments and institutions would crumble, and Christ would establish his Millennial Kingdom on earth.  None of that took place, not then and not in any year since then.

The ones in the Bible who knew when the birth of the Messiah had taken place were the magi.  I suppose they could have gotten it from Daniel if they were from Babylon where Daniel had lived and died, but they said they had seen the star of the one born King of the Jews and had come to worship Him.  Are you using the 70 years for his birth or thirty years later?

Regarding Revelation 12, would you like to read the interpretation of it that Jesus would have read during the inspection you believe he made in the years 1914 thru 1919?  It's in the WTS publication of 1917, The Finished Mystery.  If it's not available thru the WTS, there are several online sites that have it.  Since the only publications on these sites are those of the WTS, they could not be considered apostasy websites, unless you consider the Society's older publications apostasy. 

1 hour ago, Arauna said:

Question to you -  to think about: Why did God give so many prophecies about the timing and arriving of the first coming and dedication of the messiah- and it was fulfilled right on time (70 week prophesy in Daniel).  Would he not also give to Daniel a second prophecy which shows when he would start ruling invisibly in heaven as indicated in Daniel 7: 13 + 14?   

But then, by that same reasoning, the day at the end of the Christ's Presence would not be unspecified, would it.  If the beginning of Christ's 2nd coming can be calculated right down to the year and day from what God has revealed in the Bible, has not God also made the end calculable?  Or, perhaps your premise is at fault and God may reveal one thing but not another.

1 hour ago, Arauna said:

God gives us all the necessary data we need for the timelines.  He even gives the number of years that the "nations" will be ruling before Jesus starts ruling invisibly in the heavens (1914) - and defines a time period after this (the time of the end) before the Day of Jehovah - the day and time which no-one knows - and is the time Holly is referring to in her notes above). 

Arauna, the scriptures in my OP speak directly to the timing of Jesus' Second coming, or Presence:

Matthew 24:36-39 "But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone. for the coming of the Son of Man will be just like the days of Noah.  For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and they did not understand until the flood came and took them all away; so will the coming of the Son of Man be.

Mark 13:32-37 "But of that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone. Take heed, keep on the alert; for you do not know when the appointed time will come.  It is like a man away on a journey, who upon leaving his house and putting his slaves in charge, assigning to each one his task, also commanded the doorkeeper to stay on the alert.  Therefore, be on the alert---for you do not know when the master of the house is coming, whether in the evening, at midnight, or when the rooster crows, or in the morning---in case he should come suddenly and find you asleep.  What I say to you I say to all, 'Be on the alert!'"

Acts 1:7 He said to them, "It is not for you to know times or epochs which the Father has fixed by His own authority.

I notice you've not commented on them yet.  Maybe you could do so now.

11 minutes ago, Eoin Joyce said:

Well, if you get the point of the analogy and feel it lines up with my posts which focus on Scriptural references.... then job done. This is a public forum remember.

If you have a different opinion than that, you should state it clearly instead of offering up analogies that end up saying the same thing your posts have been saying, to wit:  that it really doesn't matter if the Gentile times ended in 1914 or not.

Yes, this is a public forum, though I'm not sure what you're trying to say that has to do with either your opinion or my question(s) about the Gentile times.

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Lifeboats enable an escape from the ship if the perception is that the ship is doomed. However, mutineers have also found them useful (Fletcher Christian comes to mind).

In this case, both come to mind, don't they.   Handy for a sinking ship, or conversely to dispatch the Captain.

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So for the purpose of the illustration, the crew are determined to continue their mission and, regardless of the attempts of the dissuaders, most of the passengers choose to stick with the ship.  

And evidently regardless of who's at the helm. 

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The dissuaders and those persuaded by their arguments board a number of the ship's lifeboats. The ship sails on into troubled waters to continue it's mission. The lifeboats return to shore. Time will tell who made the wisest choice. 

Two different scenarios lend themselves to your illustration.

1. If someone questions the direction the ship is going in, he's looked on unfavorably by the crew and either changes his mind or gets thrown overboard (the lifeboats being reserved for more important personages).

2. In every port where your ship anchors, those on board (themselves having been persuaded to leave other ships) are sent ashore to persuade unsuspecting mates to leave their ships and board yours---where the only way off has sever consequences (better to stay aboard and keep quiet).

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As for the question, I have never suggested that it doesn't matter about the Gentile Times ending in 1914. What is significant however is that if it did not and the suggested domino effect on doctrine takes place, we will all be here to tell the tale. If it it did.... then who will the survivors be?

You've more than suggested it, Eoin, and you're doing it again, along with the other doctrines attached to 1914 being the end of the Gentile times.  There's absolutely zero evidence for it and probably would have been discarded by now except for the importance of the other WTS doctrines attached to it, namely, Jesus did not become King in 1914, the Messianic kingdom was not born in 1914, the presence of Jesus did not begin in 1914, and no inspection took place between 1914 and 1919, therefore no appointment of a faithful slave took place in 1919.

Consider what my next question might be: What if the GB was NOT appointed as the faithful slave?  They've already dropped the appointment they presumed over all of Jesus' earthly interests.  Can they drop the appointment as His faithful slave in charge of all His believers and still maintain any credibility?  From your posts, I'd say they can.

4 hours ago, Arauna said:

I fail to see why people go back to Russell to evaluate the Truth we have today. 

It's because the WTS does.

http://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1102014268

2014 ***God's Kingdom Rules!***

A Letter From the Governing Body. 

Dear Fellow Kingdom Publisher:

PICTURE yourself as a member of the Brooklyn Bethel family on Friday morning, October 2, 1914.  You are seated at your usual place at the breakfast table, awaiting the arrival of Brother C. T. Russell. Suddenly the door to the dining room opens and Brother Russell appears. He pauses for a moment, as is his custom, and greets the Bethel family with a cheery “Good morning, all.” But then, instead of immediately taking his place at the head of the table, he claps his hands and makes a thrilling announcement: “The Gentile Times have ended; their kings have had their day!” 

And rightly so because the Governing Body was not appointed as the faithful slave for what they are teaching today but for what they were teaching up to 1919.

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I left a Christian religion because their credo was set in stone many hundreds of years ago and when a professor publically wrote that the Witnesses were right about the earth being a paradise again - he had to withdraw what he wrote or lose his job.  

Without knowing any more about this story than the vague details you've offered, and failing to see what this has to do with the question "Can the timing of Jesus' Second coming, or Presence, be calculated through Bible chronology?"

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If we all stuck to things said hundreds of years ago there would be no growth - like many Christian religions and Islam.   

But......Christians stick to things said thousands of years ago in the Bible, so your criteria for judging the truth doesn't hold up.    

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I became a Witness because there are changes and they admit at being wrong about something and move forward.

So you wanted a religion that keeps changing what you believe the Bible really teaches.  Interesting.

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I evaluate Russell within the period he lived in - as I indicated above.  Do you see this connection? Many people evaluate everything retroactively by today's standards.  They usually fail to understand much of the Bible as Abraham and many people mentioned in the Bible lived in times much different to ours and one has to evaluate their laws and actions within the time period in which they lived. 

I see the WTS connection to Russell is that his teachings are what Jesus is said to have examined along with all the teachings from other Christian churches up to 1919, and subsequently accepting the former and rejecting the latter; thereafter making the leaders of the WTS the sole channel of communication from God to mankind.  So, you're right, we should not be evaluating WTS standards of today because those were not what Jesus reviewed.  We should be evaluating the same material Jesus reviewed to see if it really was the truth.  I mean, Jesus wouldn't have found false teachings acceptable, would he.

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I study ancient archeology and I love history.   

Have you ever studied the history of the WTS?

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The science of archeology only began in 1815 when Napoleon went into Egypt.  It was during the following years, especially after 1830 that there was a rush to discover the ancient cultures mentioned in the Bible.  Many people got onto the bandwagon of trying to see something more in the pyramids as related to the Bible, especially when more and more discoveries of artifacts of the ancient cities came about - the frenzy escalated. This was the time of Darwin and the challenges to the Bible too! The power of the old Christian religions were getting less.  They had ruled the world for more than a millennium.  New thoughts were coming out right on time before 1914.  (Daniel 12 shows that the knowledge would grow more only in the final days)

Would some of those "new thoughts" be that the child born in Revelation 12 is the antichrist and Michael the Archangel in that same chapter is the Catholic Pope?

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As I said in my previous comment - Russell and his friends had some of the facts - but not all.  He was just a human being that was searching, and as I said before - it was only in 1919 (after Jesus made an inspection of the Christian religions on earth ) that he chose a group of sincere people to do the preaching work earth-wide. This was their commission. This does not indicate that they were perfect in any way. They still had to be cleansed of many false practices (pyramids, neutrality, Xmas celebrations, and many more - and this has been an ongoing improvement).

How wise is it for a religious organization to call its teachings "the truth" and then change those teachings?

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Russell's calculations were arrived at through the Bible prophecy and a secular date.  The secular date when the Jews were allowed to go back to Jerusalem is a well-established date.  Russell counted 70 years back from this (and the time it would take for them to get back) and came to 607 BCE.  From 607 BCE they followed bible prophecy to calculate the number of years that the world powers would rule before Jesus took the throne in heaven...   

Still, I wonder how Russell was able to calculate something that the Apostles couldn't, that Jesus couldn't, that the angels couldn't.

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but Russell unfortunately tried to superimpose these calculations onto Pyramids....which was actually built for worship of the zodiac - to guide the pharaoh through the heavenly bodies and the stars!

You no doubt agree with Rutherford's assessment of the Great Pyramid that Russell termed "God's Stone Witness" and Rutherford called "Satan's Bible."  But, no matter how sincere the Bible Students were, how could Jesus countenance calculations based on the pyramids?

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Just a  thought.... have you studied the relevant prophesies and seen where the JWs today get the dates from? It is a fascinating subject.

I know they get 1914 from Russell and he set the standard by which to judge whether or not he got 1914 from the Bible.  1914 fails that standard.  See his book written in 1889, The Time Is At Hand, pgs. 76-79; it lists seven proofs that were going to show whether or not 1914 was really the end of the times of the Gentiles as Russell claimed it would be and as JWs today claim it was.

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Russell believed that Jesus would start ruling in heaven in 1914 - which was calculated correctly.   

Russell believed Jesus returned and began ruling as King in 1874. That's why he named his magazine Zion's Watchtower and Herald of Christ's Presence, because he believed Christ's Presence had begun in 1874.  In 1890 he wrote Thy Kingdom Come in which he states the following about this:

Volume 3 - "Thy Kingdom Come" / C301 - Thy God Reigneth!

 STUDY IX

A Resume of the Prophetic Evidences Which Show the Presence of Immanuel, and that His Kingdom is in Process of Establishment. 

"How beautiful upon the mountains are the feet of him that bringeth good tidings, that publisheth peace, that bringeth good tidings of good, that publisheth salvation; that saith unto Zion, Thy God reigneth!" Isa. 52:7 

IN view of all the evidences presented in this and the preceding volumes of this work, we have no hesitancy in proclaiming to the Lord's loyal and faithful people, his beloved Zion, this glorious intelligence: "Thy God Reigneth!" The oft-repeated prayer of the Church has been answered: the Kingdom of God has indeed come. In the days of the present kings of earth, before their lease of dominion expires, it is being set up. The dead in Christ are even now risen and exalted with our Lord and Head. And the "feet" members of the body of Christ, who still tarry in the flesh, catching the inspiration of the glorified throng who have already ascended into the mount (kingdom) of God, reflect a measure of that transcendent glory, as did Moses when he came down from Mount Sinai. The faces of these messengers shine with that heavenly joy which fills their hearts and overflows their lips as they commune together and with the Lord, and go heralding to every nation (mountain) the good tidings of Immanuel's reign begun. How beautiful upon the mountains are the feet of him (the feet of the Christ) that bringeth good tidings of Millennial joy and peace, assuring Zion that the reign of our Lord is begun!

Wonderful truths are these! the Kingdom of God in process of setting up; the Lord Jesus and the risen saints already here and engaged in the great harvest work, with whom we also, as members of that honored body, as the "feet of him," though still in the flesh, are permitted to be co-workers, to herald the good tidings among men and to apprise them of the significance of the wonderful and troublous events which must prepare the way for and introduce the glorious reign of righteousness.

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Russell thought it was at this time that Armageddon would take place - which was wrong.

 He believed Armageddon would end BEFORE 1914 and the Millennium would begin in 1914, that's why his STUDIES were originally called Millennial Dawn. 

Zion's Watch Tower, July 1, 1894 ::R1677 : page 226:: CAN IT BE DELAYED UNTIL 1914?

Seventeen years ago people said, concerning the time features presented in MILLENNIAL DAWN, They seem reasonable in many respects, but surely no such radical changes could occur between now and the close of 1914: if you had proved that they would come about in a century or two, it would seem much more probable. What changes have since occurred, and what velocity is gained daily! "The old is quickly passing, and the new is coming in."

Now, in view of recent labor troubles and threatened anarchy, our readers are writing to know if there may not be a mistake in the 1914 date. They say that they do not see how present conditions can hold out so long under the strain.

We see no reason for changing the figures-- nor could we change them if we would. They are, we believe, God's dates, not ours. But bear in mind that the end of 1914 is not the date for the beginning, but for the end of the time of trouble. We see no reason for changing from our opinion expressed in the View presented in the WATCH TOWER of Jan. 15, '92. We advise that it be read again.

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They did not  yet understand the scriptures referring to a "great crowd" - a great group of people that Jehovah would bring out of mankind and who would survive Armageddon.  Revelation 7: 9+ 14

 Yes, they did understand the scriptures referring to the great crowd.  They viewed the great crowd as a heavenly group of anointed believers who were not quite as faithful as the 144,000 elite group.  It wasn't until the 1930's that Rutherford threw them out of heaven, shut the door in their faces, and deprived them of partaking at the Memorial.

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Revelation 12: 6-12 Clearly shows:- (and Russell obviously did not yet understand this either - they were some of the first groups who broke away from the powerful religions teachings inherited from the reformation) - When Jesus takes authority in the heavens he would throw Satan and his demons out of heaven. (Jesus sat at the right hand of his father until 1914 when he received the Kingdom power from his father and threw Satan out.) The scriptures goes on to show that Satan would then create havoc on earth because he has a "short period of time left"   This scripture clearly shows that there would be a period on earth when Jesus would be ruling invisible from heaven amidst his enemies Ps 110:1+2.

Russell didn't inherit his beliefs about Revelation 12 from the Reformation.  As I posted earlier, he was saying the child was the antichrist and Michael was the Pope.  And as I just posted, Russell believed Jesus began ruling invisible from heaven in 1874.

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For the calculations of the prophecies read the appendix of "What does the bible really teach" and for more on where the witnesses get the dates 607 BCE and 1914 CE read the insight on the scriptures. The insight on the scriptures also quotes from secular sources and you can go and check out the 'secular sources' by going to any good library or a reliable internet archive/ library. Most secular dates are not set in stone either but they give a good indication of the time period. 

What this confirms is that the timing of Jesus' Second coming, or Presence, cannot be calculated through Bible chronology

1 hour ago, Eoin Joyce said:

They may well enable you to surmise an estimation of my opinion,.... but that's all. 

And your opinion that has been coming thru loud and clear in your posts is that it really doesn't matter if the Gentile times ended in 1914 or not.  If you have a different opinion than that, you should state it clearly instead of offering up analogies that end up saying the same thing your posts have been saying, to wit:  that it really doesn't matter if the Gentile times ended in 1914 or not.

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 Perhaps... if you could explain your position on the ship?  

It's your analogy, not mine, but it won't sail you away from the question in the OP.  

1 hour ago, Arauna said:

I always remind people that when Russell was studying the Bible and learning about truths such as 1914 (they did not have the 'whole' truth about 1914 but only some of it) the rest of the world was still in the time of the industrial revolution.  People in America were still moving West in wagons and they were shooting each other because there was not much law and order.... they were still fighting Indians and this time was quite some time before WW1 (No cars or the modern conveniences - only trains and the telegraph were on the horizon).   Similarly, when we look at the seventies and some people thought the 6000 years were almost done - they naturally made assumptions.  This is normal human behavior (to speculate) if one is very interested in the Bible. So when we evaluate the past - we must always evaluate what was said within the time frame (environment) that these things were said.  What was the rest of society like in this time? What was their level of knowledge compared to the light that Jehovah was slowly revealing?

As the light is getting brighter - we now understand so much about the future Kingdom and how it is going to function. We also understand the qualities that we need to develop if we want to be part of that future government.  It seems the governing body is now mainly focusing on strengthening us for the nasty world events which lie ahead.  We need to always be ready.

If one looks at the escalation of violence in the world, the aggressive posturing of nations, and one looks at the preaching work done in the entire world - reaching even the remotest places - then one remembers where one learnt these Truths regarding the mortality of the soul, the earth being a paradise, and many more truths.  Jehovah is using the governing body, which was only appointed in 1919 with the commission to preach to the world. 

Thank Jehovah for knowing the truth and giving it to us in little bites so we can absorb it - because without it - we are lost.  Always remember that people are people and they are imperfect individuals.... (prone to speculate).... but they are drawn to Jehovah because he sees something good in them. Without Jehovah's spirit no-one can come to him.  This is why we as witnesses should never think we are better than others because we know the truth. We must always remember who gave us the truth and who gives us Spirit to understand it.

Hmmmm......While I do appreciate your response, Arauna, you've left me with a struggle of trying to find an answer to the OP question in what you've posted.   

Can the timing of Jesus' Second coming, or Presence, be calculated through Bible chronology?   

Russell set out seven specific events that would take place that would prove his speculations about 1914 were based on the Bible.  None of those events have occurred, so Russell's calculations about 1914 were not derived through Bible chronology.  I think they were derived from what he called God's "Stone Witness", the Great Pyramid in Egypt.

This thing you say about the 'light getting brighter', apparently you are relating it to the ability of man to adapt to his environment, to invent faster modes of traveling, and to making life easier with conveniences.  But when comparing Russell's time with that of the Apostles in the first century...if you are saying Russell was still in the dark, what does that say about those who were way before him.   It's as though you're saying the Bible canon was closed too soon---Jehovah still had things to add to it.

You don't mention the scriptures I shared in the OP.  If Jesus' second coming could be calculated thru Bible chronology, there would be no point in telling His disciples that there were things they were not to know---yet if it could be calculated from the Bible, surely they would have done so.  And even if they couldn't, certainly Jesus and the angels would be able to figure it out.

Can the timing of Jesus' Second coming, or Presence, be calculated through Bible chronology?

It's been brought to my attention that C.T. Russell, the founder of the WTS, believed Christ's return could be calculated by determining the length and termination point of the Gentile Times and by calculating the close of 6,000 years of human history.

These scriptures speak to this directly and indicate that it is not so:

Matthew 24:36-39 "But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone. for the coming of the Son of Man will be just like the days of Noah.  For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and they did not understand until the flood came and took them all away; so will the coming of the Son of Man be.

Mark 13:32-37 "But of that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone. Take heed, keep on the alert; for you do not know when the appointed time will come.  It is like a man away on a journey, who upon leaving his house and putting his slaves in charge, assigning to each one his task, also commanded the doorkeeper to stay on the alert.  Therefore, be on the alert---for you do not know when the master of the house is coming, whether in the evening, at midnight, or when the rooster crows, or in the morning---in case he should come suddenly and find you asleep.  What I say to you I say to all, 'Be on the alert!'"

Acts 1:7 He said to them, "It is not for you to know times or epochs which the Father has fixed by His own authority.

3 hours ago, Eoin Joyce said:

 

What you quote as marked with inverted commas is correct and I stand by those scriptural expressions. I included them as I believe they are relevant to the question raised. Your assessment of my opinion however, is your own. I have not actually expressed a personal opinion on the issue at this point, as I feel others may make a relevant contribution to the discusson.

Let me use an illustration to hopefully clarify where I stand on this matter at the moment.

I feel like a passenger on a ship.

The ship is rescuing people in a warzone, and has to make a number of stops to pick up more survivors before taking all on board to safety. I have been on board for a while, and it has at times been a scary passage, what with adverse weather conditions at times, to say nothing of hidden mine-fields, direct attacks from enemy forces, or the danger of becoming embroiled in cross-fire from the constant skirmishes between rival factions.

However, despite a lack of previous experience of such things, the crew have charts, navigational equipment, and a growing pool of practical wisdom at their disposal. They also have radio contact with their command and are able to get some objective guidance not available otherwise. With all this, the crew has corrected any errors of judgement, adjusted their course, and, despite difficulty, has managed to get the ship and it's passengers safely through many hazardous situations so far. I have come to trust their ability to navigate safely through the uncertain conditions, complete their assignment to pick up survivors, and get the full complement of passengers safely out of the warzone.

Now I am faced with a new dilemna. We have stopped to pick up more survivors, but some who want to stay on shore, using the crews own navigational charts and log, are disputing with the decisions made, crticising the crew that have got us so far, and saying they have it all wrong and that we should not trust them to get us to safety. Some are saying that there is no war and that the crew have some ulterior, harmful motive in picking up passengers.  A group of passengers appear to be supporting them in these assertions, the bottom line of which is that we should all... ABANDON SHIP!

To be continued.....

Your posts ARE expressing your personal opinions, Eoin.

And you're still saying the same thing you've been saying all along, i.e., it really doesn't matter if the Gentile times ended in 1914 or not.

By extension, then, it doesn't really matter to you if Jesus did not become King in 1914, the Messianic kingdom was not born in 1914, the presence of Jesus did not begin in 1914, and no inspection took place between 1914 and 1919, therefore no appointment of a faithful slave took place in 1919.

Someone once said that it was wise to examine not only what you personally believe but also what is taught by any church you may be associated with.  Of course this also may not really matter to you either. 

Perhaps in your next segment  you can explain why ships have lifeboats.

1 hour ago, Eoin Joyce said:

With respect @HollyW, this is actually your opinion of what I said in earlier postings on this question. I'll leave interested parties to read those earlier postings themselves if they wish,  and draw their own conclusions on what my opinion may or may not be.

 

If your opinion is not  that it really doesn't matter if the Gentile times ended in 1914 or not, could you clarify by stating clearly what your opinion is please.   

From what you've already posted, that is clearly what your opinion is.  

Isn't that why you said the Bible would still hold true even if 1914 doesn't, so it really doesn't matter if the Gentile times didn't end in 1914. 

Isn't that why you said you'd be sticking with the faithful ones in Hebrews 11 who  'received a favorable witness because of their faith', since to them, it really doesn't matter if the Gentile time didn't end in 1914.

Isn't that why you pointed out that "Jesus as Head of the Congregation is just as alert today as he was in the 1st Century", so it really doesn't matter if the Gentile times didn't end in 1914.

Isn't that why you said "Discussions and expectations about dates have presumably been going on one way or another ever since Jesus said he would return" so it really doesn't matter if the Gentile time didn't end in 1914.

And Isn't that why said "Jehovah's Witnesses continue to develop, grow, prosper, and seem to be successful in whatever they turn their hands to", so it really doesn't matter if the Gentile times didn't end in 1914.

Clearly that is what Teresa is saying, that she's ready and willing to adjust her thinking to brighter new spiritual light on this when it comes, so it really doesn't matter if the Gentile times didn't end in 1914.  

11 hours ago, Teresa Morales said:

HollyW...  The light of spiritual truth continues getting brighter. Would it not benefit us to adjust our thinking accordingly? We expect, yes, we rely on the GB to make corrections on anything they have reason to feel needs it. We know this is done, only after much time, effort and prayer, and is always based on a clearer understanding of the scriptures. At times, Jesus revealed, quite gradually, the light of Kingdom truths to his disciples. Those loyal to him waited patiently, knowing an explanation would come in due time. We serve Jehovah because he is Almighty God, Creator of the Universe. Not because of the dates and times of prophecy fulfillment! Those things do, however,  serve as reminders that we need to keep a sense of urgency. It's exciting to know that we get to see the fulfillment of this most incredible prophesy, in our own lifetime! We get to witness the downfall of Satan and his demons!  Jehovah deserves our love and loyalty. enough said about that!   But, if you are having difficulty accepting 1914, then ask yourself how ALL of the signs that Jesus said would indicate the conclusion of this system of things is near, are happening NOW?  For the first and only time in history, all of the signs are occurring, so much so, that even some in the world can tell it's the "time of the end." Remember, even the demons believe, and they shudder! Why is Satan so angry? Because he knows his time is very short! If it wasn't, he wouldn't have the whole world in chaos... 

 

Hi Teresa, thanks for the reply.

It would appear then that you share Eoin Joyce's opinion that it really doesn't matter if the Gentile times ended in 1914 or not.  If it's wrong, your religious leaders will discover it and change what you believe about it.

What concerns me about 1914 is that the founder of your religion, Charles T. Russell, laid out seven events that would prove the scriptural accuracy of his predictions about 1914.  None of them occurred, so we know 1914 is not based on the Bible but on the opinions of men.  If it doesn't matter that they are wrong about 1914, does it matter that they[re wrong about other things, such as, say, the identity of the faithful slave?  They've been wrong about it three times already.  I mention this, not to change the subject, but just as a reminder of how closely tied it is to 1914 being the end of the Gentile times.

In my post above I listed several other teachings that would be wrong if the Gentile times did not end in 1914:

This also would affect the good news of the Kingdom that JWs are preaching---it's birth/establishment in heaven in 1914.  See, for instance, this remarkable claim on page 137 of the Proclaimers book:

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[jv p.137]

As the events following 1914 began to unfold and the Bible Students compared these with what the Master had foretold, they gradually came to appreciate that they were living in the last days of the old system and that they had been since 1914. They also came to understand that it was in the year 1914 that Christ’s invisible presence had begun and that this was, not by his personally returning (even invisibly) to the vicinity of the earth, but by his directing his attention toward the earth as ruling King. They saw and accepted the vital responsibility that was theirs to proclaim “this good news of the kingdom” for a witness to all nations during this critical time of human history.—Matt. 24:3-14.

What exactly was the message about the Kingdom that they were to preach? Was it any different from the message of the first-century Christians?

God’s Kingdom, the Only Hope of Mankind

As a result of careful study of God’s Word, the Bible Students associated with Brother Russell understood that God’s Kingdom was the government that Jehovah had promised to set up by means of his Son for the blessing of mankind. Jesus Christ, in heaven, would have associated with him as rulers a “little flock” selected by God from among humankind. They understood that this government would be represented by faithful men of old who would serve as princes in all the earth. These were referred to as “ancient worthies.”—Luke 12:32; Dan. 7:27; Rev. 20:6; Ps. 45:16.

Christendom had long taught ‘the divine right of kings,’ as a means of holding the people in subjection. But these Bible Students saw from the Scriptures that the future of human governments was not secured by any divine guarantee. In harmony with what they were learning, the Watch Tower of December 1881 stated: “The setting up of this kingdom will of course, involve the overthrow of all the kingdoms of earth, as they are all—even the best of them—founded on injustice and unequal rights and the oppression of many and favor of the few—as we read: ‘It shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms and it shall stand forever.’”—Dan. 2:44.

As to the way in which those oppressive kingdoms would be broken, the Bible Students still had much to learn. They did not yet understand clearly how the benefits of God’s Kingdom would spread to all mankind. But they were not confusing the Kingdom of God with a vague feeling within one’s heart or with rule by a religious hierarchy that used the secular State as its arm.

By 1914, the faithful pre-Christian servants of God had not been resurrected on earth as princely representatives of the Messianic King, as had been expected, nor had the remaining ones of the “little flock” joined Christ in the heavenly Kingdom in that year. Nevertheless, The Watch Tower of February 15, 1915, confidently stated that 1914 was the due time “for our Lord to take up His great power and reign,” thus ending the millenniums of uninterrupted Gentile domination. In its issue of July 1, 1920, The Watch Tower reaffirmed that position and associated it with the good news that Jesus had foretold would be proclaimed earth wide before the end. (Matt. 24:14) At the convention of the Bible Students at Cedar Point, Ohio, in 1922, this understanding was restated in a general resolution, and Brother Rutherford urged the conventioners: “Advertise, advertise, advertise, the King and his kingdom.”

However, at that time the Bible Students felt that the setting up of the Kingdom, its full establishment in heaven, would not take place until the final members of Christ’s bride were glorified. A real milestone was reached, therefore, in 1925, when The Watch Tower of March 1 featured the article “Birth of the Nation.” It presented an eye-opening study of Revelation chapter 12. The article set forth evidence that the Messianic Kingdom had been born—established—in 1914, that Christ had then begun to rule on his heavenly throne, and that thereafter Satan had been hurled from heaven down to the vicinity of the earth. This was the good news that was to be proclaimed, the news that God’s Kingdom was already in operation. How this enlightened understanding stimulated these Kingdom proclaimers to preach to the ends of the earth!

On 8/25/2016 at 2:01 PM, Witness said:

This was a brief speculation made on another forum, but got me thinking about why it must be so.  In all pictures of Christ when dying, he is depicted in the Watchtower magazines without the crown of thorns. I believe I have not run across this in any other such drawn description of the time of Jesus' dying and death.  There appears to be no scriptural reason behind its removal.  What is the reason?

It could have been removed when the purple cloak was removed since both had to do with his being a king and they were ridiculing him, but there is a reference by the WTS that he was still wearing the crown of thorns when he was put to death:

[w56 4/15 p.251] . He was stripped of his clothes, nailed to the stake, wearing on his head a crown of thorns. 

On 8/19/2016 at 7:59 AM, John Lindsay Barltrop said:

..........and did not Jesus say that the world will hate you because of Jehovah's name. As the time of the end draws ever closer we should expect more problems as Jehovah's people. Matthew 24:9, John 16:2, Acts 7:59, Acts 12:1, 2 are but a couple of scriptures that show that similar problems befell the first century Christians and we have been and will be subjected to the worlds hatred for bearing our great God's wonderful name.

Remember that it was this corrupt world and the hatred for Jehovah's name that had God's only begotten son put to death on false charges. We all need to lift our heads up as our deliverance is getting near. Luke 21:28

......Jesus said the world would hate his followers because of his name: Matthew 24:9 “Then people will deliver you up to tribulation and will kill you, and you will be objects of hatred by all the nations on account of my name."

Acts 4:18 With that they called them and charged them, nowhere to make any utterance or to teach upon the basis of the name of Jesus. 

Acts 5:27 So they brought them and stood them in the Sanhedrin hall. And the high priest questioned them 28 and said: “We positively ordered you not to keep teaching upon the basis of this name, and yet, look! You have filled Jerusalem with your teaching, and you are determined to bring the blood of this man upon us.” 

Acts 5:40 At this they gave heed to him, and they summoned the apostles, flogged them, and ordered them to stop speaking upon the basis of Jesus’ name, and let them go.

Remember, it was Jehovah's people, the Jews, who were the ones seeking to kill Jesus.  They provided the false witnesses against him, and they told the Roman Governor, Pontius Pilate, “His blood come upon us and upon our children.”