HollyW

What event do Jehovah's Witnesses believe is the greatest event ever to occur in the history of the world?

1 hour ago, Melinda Mills said:

When one uses the term in everyday speech, one doesn't discriminate, so why would you ask that? If you say 'my grandmother's generation' you think of all people born around that time, and you don't usually think about religion.  So you would see why Jesus did not think to qualify it.

Thanks, Melinda.  Viewing your example of "my grandmother's generation" as comparable to "this generation" that Jesus mentions, he would be including all people born around that time, believer and unbeliever alike.  I'm thinking that may be what Alexa was shooting for, too.

On 8/1/2016 at 8:29 AM, HollyW said:

Let's take a look at the Bible evidence Russell had been saying would prove him right about the end of the Gentile times. This is from his book called "The Time Is At Hand" which he wrote in 1889:

In this chapter we present the Bible evidence proving that the full end of the times of the Gentiles, i.e., the full end of their lease of dominion, will be reached in A.D. 1914; and that that date will see the disintegration of the rule of imperfect men. And be it observed, that if this is shown to be a fact firmly established by the Scriptures, it will prove:

 

Firstly

, That at that date the Kingdom of God, for which our Lord taught us to pray, saying, "Thy Kingdom come," will begin to assume control, and that it will then shortly be "set up," or firmly established, in the earth, on the ruins of present institutions.

 

Secondly

, It will prove that he whose right it is thus to take the dominion will then be present as earth's new Ruler; and not only so, but it will also prove that he will be present for a considerable period before that date; because the overthrow of these Gentile governments is directly caused by his dashing them to pieces as a potter's vessel (Psa. 2:9; Rev. 2:27), and establishing in their stead his own righteous government.

 

Thirdly

, It will prove that some time before the end of the overthrow the last member of the divinely recognized Church of Christ, the "royal priesthood," "the body of Christ," will be glorified with the Head; because every member is to reign with Christ, being a joint-heir with him of the Kingdom, and it cannot be fully "set up" without every member.

 

Fourthly

, It will prove that from that time forward Jerusalem shall no longer be trodden down of the Gentiles, but shall arise from the dust of divine disfavor, to honor; because the "Times of the Gentiles" will be fulfilled or completed.

 

Fifthly,

It will prove that by that date, or sooner, Israel's blindness will begin to be turned away; because their "blindness in part" was to continue only "until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in" (Rom. 11:25), or, in other words, until the full number from among the Gentiles, who are to be members of the body or bride of Christ, would be fully selected.

 

Sixthly,

It will prove that the great "time of trouble such as never was since there was a nation," will reach its culmination in a world-wide reign of anarchy; and then men will learn to be still, and to know that Jehovah is God and that he will be exalted in the earth. (Psa. 46:20)  The condition of things spoken of in symbolic language as raging waves of the sea, melting earth, falling mountains and burning heavens will then pass away, and the "new heavens and new earth" with their peaceful blessings will begin to be recognized by trouble-tossed humanity.  But the Lord's Anointed and his rightful and righteous authority will first be recognized by a company of God's children while passing through the great tribulation--the class represented by 

m 

and 

t 

on the 

Chart of the Ages 

(see also pages 235 to 239, Vol. I); afterward, just at its close, by fleshly Israel; and ultimately by mankind in general.

 

Seventhly,

It will prove that before that date God's Kingdom, organized in power, will be in the earth and then smite and crush the Gentile image (Dan. 2:34)--and fully consume the power of these kings.  Its own power and dominion will be established as fast as by its varied influences and agencies it crushes and scatters the "powers that be"--civil and ecclesiastical--iron and clay.

So, these are the events you would be expecting when you imagine yourself in the dining room that day in October 1914 when C.T. Russell announced that the Gentile times had ended.  These events are the evidence that would prove October 1914 was the correct date Biblically for the end of the Gentile times.   

2 minutes ago, Alexa said:

I don't know Holly, the bible doesn't have reference in the generation 

Thanks, Alexa.   Let me know when you do know.

On 2/23/2016 at 0:03 PM, Γιαννης Διαμαντιδης said:

Since nobody understood my previous question ( because everybody says his/hers opinion, I will make it more general. And this time I want you to prove it from the scriptures -2 John 1:10) : Is it Christian NOT to accept someone who comes to the congregation and asks for forgiveness ?

When the Prodigal Son in the parable of our Lord Jesus came back home the father accepted him. His brother didn't want him back but the father corrected the second son: “‘My son,’ the father said, ‘you are always with me, and everything I have is yours. But we had to celebrate and be glad, because this brother of yours was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found". -Luke 15:31.
Imagine the father question his first son's motives for coming back... imagine - instead of making a party - telling him "I will not speak to you till you will show proof of remorse" ... "you must come here every Wednesday and Sunday for at list a year, no body will talk to you but you must come here to prove you are not proud".

"Is anyone among you suffering? Then he must pray. Is anyone cheerful? He is to sing praises. Is anyone among you sick? Then he must call for the elders of the church and they are to pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord; and the prayer offered in faith will restore the one who is sick, and the Lord will raise him up, and if he has committed sins, they will be forgiven him". - James 5:14.

 

In the 2015 brochure, "Return to Jehovah", the parable about the Prodigal Son is referred to and seems to indicate that inactive ones who return, even after 40 years, and confess sins such as having celebrated holidays, gone to other churches, been involved in politics, and probably much more, will be forgiven and welcomed back in the same way as the prodigal son:

From page 10 of the brochure:

This even might indicate that they should be welcomed back right there in the parking lot when someone sees them drive up.

I asked this in the Controversial section, and though it was read quite a few times, no one has ventured a reply.

In the new brochure reaching out to inactive ones, there seems to be an implication that inactive Jehovah's Witnesses can confess violating WTS rules for 40 years and not be disciplined for it, but rather will be welcomed back to each congregation with open arms.  The brochure tells of one coming back after 40 years of being inactive, who during that time had celebrated holidays, gone to other churches, been involved in politics, and probably much more. 

Has something been left out of the brochure....something like 'yes, you'll be welcomed back with open arms....as soon as the elders say you can be, but until then you'll be shunned for your 40 years of sins that you just confessed to them.' ?

I ask because the articles about inactive ones returning to the Kingdom Hall have always said something about  "Loving discipline may be required." There's even been instructions to those who may be asked to study with an inactive JW, such as this in a 2008 wt:

[w08 11/15 Help Them Return Without Delay!, p.12, par.2] If they assign a publisher to study with an inactive person desiring help, what should be done if the conductor learns that the individual has committed a serious sin? Instead of giving counsel about any judicial or confidential matter, the publisher should suggest that he speak to the elders. If he fails to do so, the publisher himself should inform the elders.

But the 2015 brochure, Return to Jehovah, doesn't mention discipline being required.  If elders can question the sincerity of someone's repentance because he or she waited a month or two before confessing it to the elders, wouldn't it be even more doubtful that a person confessing after 40 years is truly repentant?

Holly

We can, of course, pretend we don't understand that all of these people on the earth at the end of the thousand years are Jehovah's Witnesses.

Matthew 24:32-34 “Now learn the parable from the fig tree: when its branch has already become tender and puts forth its leaves, you know that summer is near; 33 so, you too, when you see all these things, recognize that He is near, right at the door. 34 Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place."

"This generation." Did Jesus have in mind unbelievers?

Acts 24:15 there shall certainly be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.

9 hours ago, Bonny Sanders said:

It's interesting when you look this up that it is acknowledged that it is historically inaccurate on several counts, that the artist was focusing on drama rather than truthfulness.

Maybe it wasn't a cloudy day?  

Painting by Gérôme, 1883, courtesy of Walters Art Gallery, Baltimore
From page 7 of the WTS 1990 Blood brochure.

On 9/8/2016 at 7:42 AM, Eoin Joyce said:

I think the point  referenced in the WT of 2/15/1981 which is quoted above is relevant: "at times, it has been necessary, as understanding became clearer, to correct views. (Prov. 4:18) However, this has resulted in a continual refining of the body of Bible-based truth to which Jehovah’s Witnesses subscribe."

Corrected views? I see it as a continuation of the process described at Acts 18:26 regarding Apollos "Pris·cilʹla and Aqʹui·la heard him, they took him into their company and explained the way of God more accurately to him" and similar to what Paul said at 1Cor 9-13 "For we have partial knowledge and we prophesy partially,"

Thank you, Eoin, for helping to adjust my view of just exactly what is meant by " the record that the “faithful and discreet slave” organization has made for the past more than 100 years"

I've been interpreting it to mean the faithful slave had been teaching the truth for the past 100 years, but the point you bring out from the article itself (and Janice's agreement) brings me to the realization that to JWs it doesn't mean the record of the faithful slave will show it has been teaching the truth for the past 100 years but that it has been continually changing and refining what it has been saying is the truth.

No wonder my referring to what has been written in the older publications has frustrated and irritated some on this forum. 

On 9/8/2016 at 7:42 AM, Eoin Joyce said:

Corrected views? I see it as a continuation of the process described at Acts 18:26 regarding Apollos "Pris·cilʹla and Aqʹui·la heard him, they took him into their company and explained the way of God more accurately to him" and similar to what Paul said at 1Cor 9-13 "For we have partial knowledge and we prophesy partially,"

Your appeal to Acts 18:26 with Priscilla and Aquila explaining the way of God more accurately to Apollos, evidently means to you and Janice that Jehovah and Jesus have been explaining the way of God more accurately to the WTS all these years, hence the "continual refining of the body of Bible-based truth to which Jehovah’s Witnesses subscribe", as the article points out.

And this "continual refining" then causes (actually the article says "forces") you to apply to the WTS the words of Peter to Jesus:

 “Whom shall we go away to?” (John 6:66-69) "You have sayings of everlasting life. 69 We have come to know that you are the Holy One of God.” 

So its the record of a 100 years of changing its teachings that cause JWs to view the WTS as the sole channel of communication between God and mankind.  

35 minutes ago, Menrov said:

It is always good to read the context. Paul is talking to the entire congregation. they gathered and ate. But they did not eat with respect. They ate because they were hungry and some got drunk.

Objective of the meal: 1 Cor. 11:26 For every time you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death until he comes.

So, does this mean that all WHO DO NOT eat nor drink are NOT proclaiming the Lord's death? If one is in the congregation but does not eat or drink, according to Paul, is not supporting the arrangement. You can ask yourself: why be present?

It is not being an observer but objective was to participate.

Verse 33 explains: 33 So then, my brothers and sisters,¹² when you come together to eat, wait for one another. 34 If anyone is hungry, let him eat at home, so that when you assemble it does not lead to judgment. I will give directions about other matters when I come.

Unfortunately, the WBTS teaches not to gather to eat but actually to deny the bread and wine and only be there to observe. I cannot find a verse or verses that supports this.

Anyone?

 

Good points, Menrov.

Since the Apostle Paul was addressing this to Christians who all had the heavenly hope, I think the ones who would not be partaking in the first century would be those among the anointed who had unconfessed sin or were in some way unworthy to participate in the Lord's communion.

1 Corinthians 11:27 Therefore whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner, shall be guilty of the body and the blood of the Lord. ²⁸ But a man must examine himself, and in so doing he is to eat of the bread and drink of the cup. ²⁹ For he who eats and drinks, eats and drinks judgment to himself if he does not judge the body rightly.

The WTS interprets this examining of oneself today to mean whether one has the heavenly hope or the earthly hope; but the Apostle Paul wrote this to only those who had the heavenly hope so he couldn't have meant that sort of an examination and probably not that sort of distinction among Christians.

There is a similar instance in Numbers 9:10 when certain Israelites were unclean or on a journey and could not take part in the Passover celebration in the first month so they were allowed to have their Passover a month later.  This could be similar to the Christians in the first century who were in some way unworthy to partake and so they refrained from the communion.

For Christians everlasting life (eternal life) is the same as immortality.

This is an interesting excerpt from gotquestions.com  showing the Christian belief:

Question: "What is eternal life?"

Answer: When the Bible speaks of eternal life, it refers to a gift of God that comes only “through Jesus Christ our Lord” (Romans 6:23). This gift is in contrast to the “death” that is the natural result of sin.

The gift of eternal life comes to those who believe in Jesus Christ, who is Himself “the resurrection and the life” (John 11:25). The fact that this life is “eternal” indicates that it is perpetual life—it goes on and on and on, with no end.

It is a mistake, however, to view eternal life as simply an unending progression of years. A common New Testament word for “eternal” is aiónios, which carries the idea of quality as well as quantity. In fact, eternal life is not really associated with “years” at all, as it is independent of time. Eternal life can function outside of and beyond time, as well as within time.

For this reason, eternal life can be thought of as something that Christians experience now. Believers don’t have to “wait” for eternal life, because it’s not something that starts when they die. Rather, eternal life begins the moment a person exercises faith in Christ. It is our current possession. John 3:36 says, “Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life.” Note that the believer “has” (present tense) this life (the verb is present tense in the Greek, too). We find similar present-tense constructions in John 5:24 and John 6:47. The focus of eternal life is not on our future, but on our current standing in Christ.

The Bible inextricably links eternal life with the Person of Jesus Christ. John 17:3 is an important passage in this regard, as Jesus prays, “Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.” Here, Jesus equates “eternal life” with a knowledge of God and of the Son. There is no knowledge of God without the Son, for it is through the Son that the Father reveals Himself to the elect (John 17:6; 14:9).

This life-giving knowledge of the Father and the Son is a true, personal knowledge, not just an academic awareness. There will be some on Judgment Day who had claimed to be followers of Christ but never really had a relationship with Him. To those false professors, Jesus will say, “I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!” (Matthew 7:23). The apostle Paul made it his goal to know the Lord, and he linked that knowledge to resurrection from the dead: “I want to know Christ—yes, to know the power of his resurrection and participation in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, and so, somehow, attaining to the resurrection from the dead” (Philippians 3:10–11).

In the New Jerusalem, the apostle John sees a river flowing from “the throne of God and of the Lamb,” and “on each side of the river stood the tree of life. . . . And the leaves of the tree are for the healing of the nations” (Revelation 22:1–2). In Eden, we rebelled against God and were banished from the tree of life (Genesis 3:24). In the end, God graciously restores our access to the tree of life. This access is provided through Jesus Christ, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world (John 1:29).

Right now, every sinner is invited to know Christ and to receive eternal life: “Let the one who is thirsty come; and let the one who wishes take the free gift of the water of life” (Revelation 22:17).

How can you know that you have eternal life? First of all, confess your sin before a holy God. Then, accept God’s provision of a Savior on your behalf. “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved” (Romans 10:13). Jesus Christ, the Son of God, died for your sins, and He rose again the third day. Believe this good news; trust the Lord Jesus as your Savior, and you will be saved (Acts 16:31; Romans 10:9–10).

John puts it so simply: “God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life” (1 John 5:11–12).

In the course of several discussions here, I've received a certain amount of resistance and even criticism for referencing the older publications of the WTS, and even for referencing current publications (2014) that reference older publications (1914).

What I need to know is how far back, then, is it appropriate to go when quoting from WTS publications?

For instance, is 1981 too far back?  Consider this quote from the WT of 2/15/1981 in the article on pg. 19 "Do We Need Help To Understand The Bible?" and please note the part I've bolded:

Our View of the "Slave"

If we have once established what instrument God is using as his “slave” to dispense spiritual food to his people, surely Jehovah is not pleased if we receive that food as though it might contain something harmful. We should have confidence in the channel God is using. At the Brooklyn headquarters from which the Bible publications of Jehovah’s Witnesses emanate there are more mature Christian elders, both of the “remnant” and of the “other sheep,” than anywhere else upon earth.

True, the brothers preparing these publications are not infallible. Their writings are not inspired as are those of Paul and the other Bible writers. (2 Tim. 3:16) And so, at times, it has been necessary, as understanding became clearer, to correct views. (Prov. 4:18) However, this has resulted in a continual refining of the body of Bible-based truth to which Jehovah’s Witnesses subscribe. Over the years, as adjustments have been made to that body of truth, it has become ever more wonderful and applicable to our lives in these “last days.” Bible commentators of Christendom are not inspired either. Despite their claims to great knowledge, they have failed to highlight even basic Bible truths—such as the coming Paradise earth, the importance of God’s name, and the condition of the dead.

Rather, the record that the “faithful and discreet slave” organization has made for the past more than 100 years forces us to the conclusion that Peter expressed when Jesus asked if his apostles also wanted to leave him, namely, “Whom shall we go away to?” (John 6:66-69) No question about it. We all need help to understand the Bible, and we cannot find the Scriptural guidance we need outside the “faithful and discreet slave” organization.

23 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

BTW, when threads get this long (over one page) I wish the default was not "Sort by Votes." I don't know if everyone else gets this as their default, but I wish it was "Sort by Date" so that I could find what was most recently said.

I've noticed that, too.   The "Sort by Votes" default puts the answer to the question first, which is nice when browsing, but for replying I always click on "Sort by Date" at the top of the thread.

21 hours ago, Arauna said:

I fear you do not win the battle for everlasting life!

The Savior Christ Jesus has already won the battle when he abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel, rendering powerless him who had the power of death and freeing those who thru fear of death were subject to slavery all their lives. Thanks be to God, who gives me the victory thru the Lord Jesus Christ!

3 hours ago, Eoin Joyce said:

Well, there's nothing especially revelatory here.

Exactly, that's why sons of God who married daughters of men were humans, not angels.

3 hours ago, Eoin Joyce said:

Didn't you read that when Abraham "unknowingly entertained angels"  (Heb. 13:2) they ate and drank the food he provided for them? (Gen.18:8: "He then took butter and milk and the young bull that he had prepared and set the food before them. Then he stood by them under the tree as they were eating.")? With nutrition and reproduction being two of the seven principal characteristcs of living (physical) organisms that we learn about at latest by 6th grade, we are not really pushing the boundaries here are we?

Why are you assuming that angels cannot eat and drink what humans do?

3 hours ago, Eoin Joyce said:

Now, to my understanding, I agree that angels do not reproduce among themselves.... but.... angels materialised as humans that can eat and drink?  

Angels do not "materialize" human bodies (i.e., materialize according to the WTS = creating bodies of flesh to appear in).  Spirit bodies can be seen by humans if God allows them to be.  Take, for instance, Balaam and his donkey---the angel was seen by the donkey but not by Balaam, nor, evidently by his two servants.  If the angel were materializing a human body, Balaam would have seen it just as the donkey did, but God did not allow it.  It had nothing to do with an angel creating a physical body to appear in (i.e. "materialized").

3 hours ago, Eoin Joyce said:

and likely exhibit the other characteristics of living (physical) organisms?  This is a whole different ball game. (Excuse me).  And given the rather peculiar nature of the male parent in this case, I would hazard a guess that the nature of the offspring of a (materialized spirit)/humanoid male, "mated" with a normal human female, whilst produced "after it's kind", would exhibit numerous different characteristics from the more usual offspring of the standard human species. Hence, the "Nephilim".

 What you belief is leading you into is the false idea that angels can create flesh and evidently sperm along with it.  Not going to happen.  There is no Biblical evidence to support your belief; rather, the Bible attributes all creation to the Father, the Holy Spirit, and the Word.

Nor is there any clear evidence of who or what the Nephilim were, but whatever they were, they were not angels nor sons of angels.  Angels are not physical nor can they create physical bodies (your word "materialize"), thus they cannot and did not mate with women. 

3 hours ago, Eoin Joyce said:

Now correct me if I have misunderstood, but this appears to be your response to my statement that there would be no dead people preseved alive somewhere by God from the time of the flood of Noah's day. And it appears you are suggesting they are kept alive in Hades? Although they are dead???

Well, in your reply you quoted only a part of what I said.  Was there a reason for overlooking the rest of it:

5 hours ago, HollyW said:

Of course there would be; the wicked dead are in Hades until the resurrection at the end of the thousands years at the great white throne judgment.

3 hours ago, Eoin Joyce said:

Yes they do support WTS belief. Those who receive a reward of life in the future do so by means of a resurrection which takes place at a future time.

Maybe we should read again what the writer of Ecclesiastes 9:5-6 says about those who die:

Ecclesiastes 9:5 For the living know they will die; but the dead do not know anything, nor have they any longer a reward, for their memory is forgotten. 6 Indeed their love, their hate and their zeal have already perished, and they will no longer have a share in all that is done under the sun.

By what sort of magic do you turn his words into meaning Jehovah will remember this person, reward him (or her) with life that will be on earth under the sun?  Obviously these verses are saying the opposite of what you believe.

3 hours ago, Eoin Joyce said:

It is not something they receive while they are dead. But then, you think dead people are alive don't you?

The Bible shows that those who have died are still conscious, and can see and speak and hear.

3 hours ago, Eoin Joyce said:

There is nothing more to be said on this subject from me unfortunately as it is not possible to reconcile a discussion on this kind of a topic where the condition of the dead is not scripturally established.

Jesus himself established the condition of the dead in his parable about the rich man and Lazarus.  He shows they are conscious, can feel pain, can see and speak and hear.  He also said that the soul does not die when the body dies.  And in a vision that John saw and recorded in Revelation 6:9-11 there are souls in heaven of persons who have died and they are conscious and can speak and see and hear and reason.

13 minutes ago, Eoin Joyce said:

I suspect here we may have a different view point as we understand these to be angelic sons of god, not human sons of god.

Since they mate with humans they would have to be humans.  Angels do not reproduce even among themselves let alone with another species.

14 minutes ago, Eoin Joyce said:

This would appear to harmonise with the expression “spirits in prison,”  at 1 Peter 3:19, and additionally referred to as "angels" at Jude 6.

While the passage in 1 Peter 3:18-20 does reference the same time as Genesis 6, "in the days of Noah while the ark was being built" it doesn't reference either angels or sons of God but only those who were disobedient during that time----mankind----hence, the flood.

Jude 6 does not reference the same time as Genesis 6 at all: And angels who did not keep their own domain, but abandoned their proper abode, He has kept in eternal bonds under darkness for the judgment of the great day.

However, 2 Peter 2:4-5 indicates that whenever whatever happened to the angels who sinned, it was NOT during Genesis 6 because they are presented as separate events:  For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to pits of darkness, reserved for judgment;⁵ and did not spare the ancient world, but preserved Noah, a preacher of righteousness, with seven others, when He brought a flood upon the world of the ungodly;

40 minutes ago, Eoin Joyce said:

Of course there would be no disobedient humans from the time of Noah kept alive in a "prison" after their destruction down to the first century.

Of course there would be; the wicked dead are in Hades until the resurrection at the end of the thousands years at the great white throne judgment.

41 minutes ago, Eoin Joyce said:

As Ecc.9:5 shows, dead humans are as unconscious as living ones are conscious.

In the book of Ecclesiastes...it seems to me that Solomon is giving the viewpoint a lot of people have about life being meaningless and vanity since we all die and that's because of what it looks like what happens from man's perspective. But he is leading up to the whole point of his writing which is stated at the end: 12:13 The conclusion, when all has been heard, is: fear God and keep His commandments, because this applies to every person. 14 For God will bring every act to judgment, everything which is hidden, whether it is good or evil.

So without God, everything is meaningless.

I see that in the current study guide, "What Does The Bible Really Teach?", Ecclesiastes 9:5 is cited as support for the view that "When a person dies, he ceases to exist." 

Ecclesiastes 9:5 For the living know they will die; but the dead do not know anything, nor have they any longer a reward, for their memory is forgotten. 6 Indeed their love, their hate and their zeal have already perished, and they will no longer have a share in all that is done under the sun.

Ecclesiastes 9:10 Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might; for there is no activity or planning or knowledge or wisdom in Sheol where you are going.

But do those verses really support WTS belief that the person has ceased to exist, will have no further reward, be forgotten, and "no longer have a share in all that is done under the sun" ?

No, because JWs say the person will have a future reward, be remembered by God, and will live forever on earth, "under the sun". 

22 hours ago, moggy said:

This is probably the most perplexing aspect in our exegesis. Does it mean they "survive" the GT alive, or does it mean that they are "martyred" at this time and are rewarded with heavenly life in the very presence of God as a consequence?

Being that the great crowd is before the throne in heaven, how did they get there without dying?

3 hours ago, Arauna said:

If you quote old things to me from our organization - it is futile -  because in most cases we have already moved on from these "old Interpretations....

 

Evidently it's also futile to quote even recent things to you from the WTS, such as I did earlier:

17 hours ago, HollyW said:

Arauna, are you aware of the picture and letter at the beginning of the WTS 2014 book, "God's Kingdom Rules!" ?  http://wol.jw.org/en/wol/lv/r1/lp-e/0/21821

Eoin is right.  If what I've shown you from the publications of the WTS is frustrating you, instead of whining about it and calling me names and making false accusations against me for asking you about it, you should just put me on ignore and not respond to what I post.

3 minutes ago, Eoin Joyce said:

Because not only the angels were disobedient: Ge.6:5: "Consequently, Jehovah saw that man’s wickedness was great on the earth and that every inclination of the thoughts of his heart was only bad all the time."

That scripture confirms my point, Eoin.  It was mankind, not angels, who had been wicked.  Angels are not even mentioned, only humans.  The Lord said he was sorry he had made man, not angels.

Genesis 6:1 Now it came about, when men began to multiply on the face of the land, and daughters were born to them, ² that the sons of God saw that the daughters of men were beautiful; and they took wives for themselves, whomever they chose. ³ Then the Lord said, “My Spirit shall not strive with man forever, because he also is flesh; nevertheless his days shall be one hundred and twenty years.” ⁴ The Nephilim were on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of men, and they bore children to them. Those were the mighty men who were of old, men of renown.

⁵ Then the Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great on the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. ⁶ The Lord was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart. ⁷ The Lord said, “I will blot out man whom I have created from the face of the land, from man to animals to creeping things and to birds of the sky; for I am sorry that I have made them.” ⁸ But Noah found favor in the eyes of the Lord.

1 hour ago, Arauna said:

I am definitely not an innocent victim - I have made sure of my facts and I am not as stupid as you assume I am.  I can say the same for you... you think you are free but you are captive to this system of things....to the Trinitarian churches...who are really the ones who are cult-like because they stick to a doctrine that was laid out in the 4th century after Christ by Constantine the Great....a political leader who forced everyone to his brand of Christianity by the sword -  just like Mohammad and ISIS.  These pagan teachings of the 4th century were the teachings that the Bible students / Russell were trying to break away from in the 19th century.  They did not have all correct.... as I said before.... and we accept this as part of our history.

I have thought through everything I believe and I am not a smarty-pants .... I have been through all of that.... in my life.  I had a world-class opera voice and the world was my oyster... then I found Jehovah........I found a treasure and went to buy the field to obtain it...  I  gladly serve Jehovah... because I am sure I have not given myself up for nothing.  I had to make sure that I am not on the wrong track.  I do not believe everything I hear.... Jehovah's promises of a new world government under Jesus is a reality because Jesus is already ruling! 

Only the end is awaiting the world when we have reached a point of no return..... then Jesus will receive the direction from God to step in....to rectify mankind's affairs.   The day and hour is not known to us although we can see the signs of the Parousia...... Humans are making a mess of the earth since Adam chose independence from Jehovah.... and God will step in when it has been proven without a reasonable doubt that we cannot rule ourselves successfully if we choose independence from his moral standards. (Jehovah's "good and bad".) I am not quoting scriptures because you have already made up your mind.... but this is how it fits into the bigger picture.

I happened to work as a reporter for many years (not in English), then I worked for a University and I became  a senior publicity officer for a national orchestra.... and then worked in supply chain management and PR again.... Did a lot of stuff and worked in many fields.... saw it all.... I am definitely not a cultish type of person to follow people blindly.... I research what I believe.... so don't assume I do not know what I am doing.

And by the way - Egypt was not the first world power but it was the first world power which dominated Jehovah's people- according to the Bible.  The Bible itself goes far back to the time just after the flood. If you read your Bible....and read secular history one sees that the Sumerians were living in the fertile crescent.... and the "newest secular info" is that they may have been Hamitical..... which the bible tells you if you study it closely to follow the movement of Peoples.  (In 1928 the Witnesses did not put it this way- which is the time of your quote....) So you see, our organization moves forward - we do not stick to old things if they can be improved upon - otherwise God cannot give the new understanding / new light to move forward!! .

The Sumerians were replaced by the First Babylonian empire.   Babylonian worship spread to India, to Canaan, to Greece and from there via Greek philosophy into Rome and from Rome into most Western religions.  This is why so many of the teachings found in Christendom and most religions on the earth (such as the immortality of the soul)  is the same - everywhere.... The Bible in revelation calls this the harlot : Babylon the Great - the world empire of false religion because ancient teachings is entrenched in most religions of the world....Revelations 17 + 18....

If you quote old things to me from our organization - it is futile -  because in most cases we have already moved on from these "old Interpretations....

 

Arauna, what you have to ask yourself is why would Jesus have chosen a group of people in 1919 who were saying he had already returned in 1874, that the first resurrection had already started in 1878, that the child born in Revelation 12 is the antichrist and Michael in that same chapter was the Pope in Rome? Why would he have chosen a group AS his faithful slave who were saying 'we are NOT your faithful slave'?  Can a group who preached that the Great Pyramid was God's Stone Witness but was actually Satan's Bible be considered to have God's backing?

Your correction about Egypt is evidently directed at what I quoted from the WTS, what your church used to teach as "the truth":

3 hours ago, HollyW said:

The Watch Tower, November 15, 1928, p.344, par.37

Satan the Devil chose Ham, another son of Noah. Egypt is known as the land of Ham. Nimrod was a descendant of Ham, and the Devil exalted Nimrod in the eyes of the people as one greater than Jehovah God. The Devil, by the use of the descendants of Ham, set up Egypt, or the land of Ham, as the first great world power. Then Satan put his knowledge in dead stone, which may be called Satan's Bible, and not God's stone witness. In erecting the pyramid, of course, Satan would put in it some truth, because that is his method of practising fraud and deceit.  http://wtarchive.svhelden.info/english/zions-watch-tower/

 

1 hour ago, Arauna said:

This "food" replies to spiritual food that will be served AFTER they become the slave.  It does not refer to the food they served up BEFORE they became the slave.  It was only in 1919  - AFTER they were cleansed of some of the wrong ideas we are debating about - that they became the slave. Jehovah saw people who would take his discipline and were humble enough to do his will, face opposition and preach, preach, preach!

Anyone who has been a JW for more than three years knows that before the WTS changed the appointment and identity of the faithful slave in 2012-2013 that JWs believed the faithful slave had been appointed over all Jesus' belongings in 1919 based on the supposedly high quality spiritual food Russell and his associates had been dispensing from the 1870's up to 1919.

1 hour ago, Arauna said:

Many witnesses start off humble - like Saul - and then start searching for "greater' things for themselves like Baruch.  So far I have resisted this.  I do not want to lose my focus...  I have seen so many Witnesses fall into this trap.  Once they start seeking great things for themselves they end up thinking their own ideas more important than that of the slave. 

It could be that these you speak of are merely doing what your own religious leaders have said to do, examine the teachings of your church.  They say there's nothing to fear from examining your religion, in fact they urge you to do so:

[w69 3/15 p.165-167]  We need to examine, not only what we personally believe, but also what is taught by any religious organization with which we may be associated. Are its teachings in full harmony with God’s Word, or are they based on the traditions of men? If we are lovers of the truth, there is nothing to fear from such an examination.

2 hours ago, Arauna said:

My dear - you guys think you know it all and you twist the scriptures to give it the meaning to your own ideas..... thinking you can have the truth without the slave.... Moses was the channel Jehovah used in the time of Israel - and Jehovah destroyed those who came up in opposition to Moses - who at the time was the humblest man on earth.  He must have appeared like a bumbling fool to them - especially when he led them into an illogical situation where Pharaoh could annihilate Israel.... but Jehovah provided the way out... the red sea opened.

 I know you don't even realize how cult-like your devotion to the men on the WTS GB truly is, but you've described it eloquently there.

2 hours ago, Arauna said:

Similarly - if we do not recognize the channel Jehovah is using - we can face the same eventuality.  And you make fun of my analogy -  so you need not think about the "historic" point?

I was quite serious and not making fun at all.  The channel God is using is Jesus, as Hebrews 1:2 says: in these last days [God] has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things---and Jesus sent the Comforter, the Holy Spirit, the one who leads us into all the truth, John 14:16,17,26  "I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever; ¹⁷ that is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you and will be in you....... the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you."

2 hours ago, Arauna said:

I think I will say farewell to this website because it has become a lurking place for all kinds of "unclean" things.  I made an innocent comment above and I was dragged into a debate with people who are like "wormwood".  I like to draw people to Jehovah.... not have debates with Jehovah's opposers.  

The unsavory labels you've decided to post such as "wormwood" and "Jehovah's opposers" are directed unkindly and erroneously toward me when, really, discussing and examining WTS teachings isn't being Jehovah's opposers, unless you consider the WTS itself to BE Jehovah.  

2 hours ago, Arauna said:

Do you go to a meeting where they use the name of Jehovah, the only true God? And do they organize preaching work throughout the earth to talk about the kingdom / a future government which is the only hope for mankind?   The bible shows we must "meet with our brothers and sisters in order to strengthen them.... so where do you go to do this?   Or do you sit at home and serf websites like this to catch the inexperienced?

I've never gone to any Christian church that didn't know the name of Jehovah and also know that the name above all names is Jesus.  I don't believe it would be very wise to assume that the WTS is the only church that has missionaries and members who speak to others all the time about Jesus and the good news of salvation thru his shed blood.  Christianity is wide-spread, even from the first century, nearly two centuries before the WTS even came into existence. 

2 hours ago, Arauna said:

Then - even though you profess to be a Christian - you are not doing the things that Jesus said his true slaves would be doing when he brings the destruction on mankind. Where will you go to be organized in this work with free literature available etc in many languages.... I wonder...?

Ummm......the WTS literature isn't "free", it prefers to say it is "without charge".

Are you doing what Jesus said to do when he said "Take, eat, this is my body.....take, drink, this is my blood."

2 hours ago, Arauna said:

I have heard so many of these same arguments before "from apostates" who push their own ideas....so I signing off now.

Well, if you call those who disagree with you apostates, you must have to stay indoors to avoid them.

This is one of the problems with a religious organization that holds its members captive to the concept that their leaders alone are the ones chosen by God to be his sole channel of communication to mankind----once that is believed, those leaders can change whatever belief they want to and their followers readily accept those changes because of the belief that they are coming from God himself thru the WTS.

It shows itself in the heavy reliance that was placed on pyramidology in the early days of the WTS.  The Great Pyramid was said to be God's Stone Witness of Isaiah 19:19,20; however, by 1928 it was Satan's Bible:

[The Watch Tower, November 15, 1928, p.344, par.37

Satan the Devil chose Ham, another son of Noah. Egypt is known as the land of Ham. Nimrod was a descendant of Ham, and the Devil exalted Nimrod in the eyes of the people as one greater than Jehovah God. The Devil, by the use of the descendants of Ham, set up Egypt, or the land of Ham, as the first great world power. Then Satan put his knowledge in dead stone, which may be called Satan's Bible, and not God's stone witness. In erecting the pyramid, of course, Satan would put in it some truth, because that is his method of practising fraud and deceit. http://wtarchive.svhelden.info/english/zions-watch-tower/