HollyW

18 minutes ago, JaniceM said:

I did manage to read the entire article.  I would agree with the article concerning those basic teachings including perhaps 1914 as being a marked year as the end of the gentile period or beginning of Christ's reign in the heavens. 

You probably noticed that one of the teachings listed in the article has already been changed:

18 minutes ago, JaniceM said:

However, there is no one scripture that directly mentions the year, 1914, or that one must believe this in order to receive salvation. 

That's correct, but the article itself does mention 1914 and does say you must believe it in order to received salvation:

I think 1914 qualifies as a Scriptural belief that is unique to Jehovah's Witnesses, don't you?

18 minutes ago, JaniceM said:

*** w86 4/1 p. 31 Questions From Readers ***
Of course, if a person just has doubts or is uninformed on a point, qualified ministers will lovingly assist him. This accords with the counsel: “Continue showing mercy to some that have doubts; save them by snatching them out of the fire.” (Jude 22, 23) Hence, the true Christian congregation cannot rightly be accused of being harshly dogmatic, but it does highly value and work toward the unity encouraged in God’s Word.

I'm not so sure about that since the article itself does seem to be pretty dogmatic about disagreeing with even just one of their teachings.  In another WT they say JWs should not even be harboring thoughts that are in disagreement with WTS teachings:

18 minutes ago, JaniceM said:

 

16 minutes ago, JaniceM said:

 

 

 

Finally, growing up among several different Christian denominations from the First Baptist Church to the Second/Third Baptist/Methodist Church (smile), if you don't believe in hellfire, or if your females wear pants, don't cover their heads, or divorced, etc., they're not one of us and going to hell.  I think all denominations have rules, beliefs and guidelines they require their parishioners to abide by or believe.  Again, in my case, I've had to choose my battles. 

 

 

 

16 minutes ago, Eoin Joyce said:

Do you beleive that Christ became present in kingly power in 1914?

 First tell me what "present in kingly power" actually means to you and then I'll tell you if I agree because Christ has had kingly power since at least the first century.  Nor do I believe Christ's second advent happened in 1914, if that's what it means to you, so give me some direction here on what that means to you.  Thanks.

7 minutes ago, Eoin Joyce said:

Who are the us?

Ann, JW Insider, and now Anna.  Even the cartoon you posted is relevant to us trying to tell you the statement on page 20 is wrong but you won't accept it.  That's why I said what I did about the need for the WTS to tell you it isn't true, that way you might accept what we've been saying.

45 minutes ago, Queen Esther said:

NO, NO, NO...  thats  now  too  silly  for  me !   Without  C.T. Russell  and  the  other  first  Bible - researcher,  we  were  today  NOT  over  8  Millions  of  JW !!   WHAT  a  big  success  since  Brother  Russell,  WOW !!

And  now,  please  respect  my  wish,  NO  discuss  here,  its  finished !!!!

You've  your  area's  for  discuss  or  dispute....  I  know,  you  like  that 

Other folks have discussed photos that have been posted here.  Not that I have anything more to say about, but, why is this particular one not to have any discussion about it?

25 minutes ago, HollyW said:

Janice, let me preface this by saying all my quotes are from the WTS cd-library disc.

Also from the website jw.org

2 minutes ago, Eoin Joyce said:

Are there any Christians that do not look forward to the rapture?

I think Christians with a preterist view may believe it's already happened, just not over a whole bunch of years the way the WTS teaches.

1 hour ago, JaniceM said:

My question was not really in regards to spiritual vs spirit but the statement you made in regards to the Society below:

 

16 hours ago, HollyW said:

The WTS says this has been taking place ever since as each spirit-anointed JW dies faithful to the teachings of the WTS.

 

I underlined the direct portion of your statement.  If you could please provide a direct quote from a publication about this

I'm not sure why the two I've already provided (from the 1993 wt and the Revelation Climax book) don't answer your question about what I said.  The WTS says the first resurrection began in 1918 with the resurrection of the dead in Christ from the first century to the start of the resurrection in 1918.  But that was not all of the 144,000, they say.  There were still anointed JWs who had not died yet, but as each one dies during the time from 1918 to the present, he or she is immediately resurrected to heaven.

Are you thinking that some of these spirit-anointed JWs would not be ones who are in good standing with the WTS? 

47 minutes ago, JaniceM said:

My question was not really in regards to spiritual vs spirit but the statement you made in regards to the Society below:

 

16 hours ago, HollyW said:

The WTS says this has been taking place ever since as each spirit-anointed JW dies faithful to the teachings of the WTS.

 

I underlined the direct portion of your statement.  If you could please provide a direct quote from a publication about this

I'm not sure why the two I've already provided (from the 1993 wt and the Revelation Climax book) don't answer your question about what I said.  The WTS says the first resurrection began in 1918 with the resurrection of the dead in Christ from the first century to the start of the resurrection in 1918.  But that was not all of the 144,000, they say.  There were still anointed JWs who had not died yet, but as each one dies during the time from 1918 to the present, he or she is immediately resurrected to heaven.

Are you thinking that some of these spirit-anointed JWs would not be ones who are in good standing with the WTS? 

6 hours ago, HollyW said:

Hi Janice, and thank you.  Yes, the quote from the 2007 WT is what brings up the question about the timing of the first resurrection because it seems to cast some doubt on the WTS's earlier teachings about 1918 being the date the resurrection began.  The importance of this teaching should cause all JWs to research this because their religious leaders say that teaching wrongly about it is what the Bible brands as apostasy. (see 4/1/1986 wt p.31)

44 minutes ago, JaniceM said:

I checked the reference you quoted and failed to see exactly what you mentioned as branding ones apostates that wrongly teach about this or the year 1919(?), etc.  However, I will check it again.

 

*** w86 4/1 p. 30 Questions From Readers *** Questions From Readers - ▪ Why have Jehovah’s Witnesses disfellowshipped (excommunicated) for apostasy some who still profess belief in God, the Bible, and Jesus Christ?

Janice, let me preface this by saying all my quotes are from the WTS cd-library disc.

You say you didn't understand the connection between what the QFR article in the 4/1/1986 wt and that of preaching the wrong timing of the first resurrection as being apostasy.  I'll quote it from the article [bolding is mine]:

11 minutes ago, Anna said:

Can I put an end to this argument (discussion)? On page 50, paragraph 5 and 6 of the book says:

"As we saw in Chapter 2 of this book, the Bible Students spent decades pointing out that the year 1914 would be significant in fulfilling Bible prophecy. However, at that time they believed that Christ’s presence had begun in 1874, that he had begun to rule in heaven in 1878, and that the Kingdom would not be fully set up until October 1914. The harvest would extend from 1874 to 1914 and would culminate in the gathering of the anointed to heaven. Do mistaken ideas such as these cast doubt on whether Jesus was guiding those faithful ones by means of holy spirit?

⁶ Not at all! Think again of our opening illustration. Would the premature ideas and eager questions of the tourists cast doubt on the reliability of their guide? Hardly! Similarly, although God’s people sometimes try to work out details of Jehovah’s purpose before it is time for the holy spirit to guide them to such truths, it is clear that Jesus is leading them. Thus, faithful ones prove willing to be corrected and humbly adjust their views.—Jas. 4:6."

 

Thank you, Anna!  That certainly supports the fact that the statement on page 20 is false.  Quite a bungle, wouldn't you say!

Now if they would just admit the statement on page 22 is also false.

On 7/30/2016 at 10:59 AM, JAMMY said:

The first complete Bible printed in America^[21] by John Eliot, although not in English, frequently uses "Jehovah" in the New Testament.^[22]

Jammy, this translation by John Eliot is very interesting.  At first I thought it was in German, but a little more research shows that it was in Algonkian (Algonquin) because he was spreading the gospel to the Native Americans here in North America.  

I think I'd view this the same as the J Docs, that it would not be sufficient to support correcting the NT Greek mss.  Would you?

38 minutes ago, Eoin Joyce said:

This is getting a bit unreasonable.

To me, they could not have discerned something that was not there, regardless of whenever they said Jesus presence began. So that rules out anything they said prior to 1914 as having any relevance.

Now they clearly acknowledged that Jesus would excercise his kingship in 1914 and related any events subsequent to the end of the Gentile Times as evidence of that.

As Jesus' excercise of kingship took place in 1914 and was not a reality before, then acknowledging the event in 1914 is for me the beginning of discerning that fact. Anything prior to that date was purely speculation.That is the way I view it and I have not yet heard anything convincing otherwise.

BUT answer this if you would. Do you believe that the Gentile Times ended in 1914? Do you believe that Jesus excercised his kingly authority and cast Satan and his demons out of heaven and to the vicinity of the earth in 1914? 

I think the answer to those questions is the key to unlocking this puzzle. 

Eoin, the key is for the WTS to tell the truth about when it was that they began to discern the sign of Christ's presence in 1914.  That way you'll finally believe what several of us now have already told you: i.e. it was not in 1914 that they began to discern the sign of Christ's presence in 1914.  It wasn't until long after 1914 that they began to discern the sign of his presence in 1914.

You're absolutely correct that they could not have discerned something that was not there, yet that is exactly what they said they were doing from 1876 to long after 1914.

Well, of course I can see the Bible under his picture, but Russell didn't write the Bible so why are you thanking him for it unless you have in mind what he thought was the truth in the Bible (as I said earlier, most of what Russell said was the truth is rejected by current JWs).

Just wanted to be clear about why you are speaking to Russell.

Just now, Shiwiii said:

No it doesn't seem right, it seems pretty dishonest really. Just write your own bible like the Mormons did if you want ti to say something else. I find it strange that JWs cannot accept that the organization changes words to suit their agenda, all with the backing of uninspired texts and ignoring the fact that even the oldest manuscripts do not include YHWH in the NT. 

None of the Greek mss of the NT have YHWH in them.  The WTS knows this and has even acknowledged it.  But then they round up the J Docs (from what? the 1500's and later) and use them to put "Jehovah" where they want to and ignore the other places the J Docs have Jehovah.

11 minutes ago, Queen Esther said:

Its ONLY going about JEHOVAH'S WORD, the wonderful TRUTH, okay ?

Not about beards or especially clothes, etc. etc. All nations and tribes are SO different and in Jehovah's sense, I'm pretty sure.... Jehovah not wants Robots !   Our heart for Jehovah is most importend for him.

Discuss that in another area, I not like that here, under my postings. THANKS !

Oh, okay, my bad.  I thought you meant you were thanking Russell for what he actually taught as the truth.  Now I understand you are thanking him for God's Word, the Bible.

2 hours ago, Shiwiii said:

My question, which answers the original question, is this: 

Why would an all powerful God not be able to preserve His words to mankind and need a small group of men to fix it for Him? Could God not take care of this on His own?

Psalms 138:2 "  I will worship toward thy holy temple, and praise thy name for thy lovingkindness and for thy truth: for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name. "

If, as this Psalm states, God magnifies His word above His name, shouldn't He have been able to keep the Bible intact and correct? Of course He can, and did. That is the simple answer. It is only men who want to rewrite it to fit their need. 

It's ironic that on the one hand the WTS does say God kept the Bible intact and correct, but then they contradict themselves by saying the NT Greek texts we base our translations on were tampered with in a what they characterize as "one of the addest and most reprehensible" ways by removing God's name from every NT Greek mss in all of 127 places.

What the WTS seems to be using the J Docs for is to "correct" the inspired Greek mss.  Does that seem right to you, to use uninspired translations done hundreds of years after the Bible canon closed, to emend the texts God actually inspired?  It sure doesn't seem right to me.

30 minutes ago, Eoin Joyce said:

I am happy with the statement because it says they  "began to discern".

You still keep missing the point.  It was NOT in 1914 that they "began to discern".  The statement in the book shows, at best, ignorance of the WTS history. At worst, it is an outright lie, just as the one on page 22 is.

If it's because of the former, whoever wrote it should not be allowed to do write anything more until he or she has thoroughly researched it so they know what they're talking about.  But then, how did it get past the men on the GB? 

It it's because of the latter, every JW should be thoroughly researching this without fail, as you have begun to do.

37 minutes ago, Eoin Joyce said:

I am happy to let Jehovah and Jesus indicate their judgement as to who is providing  "food in due season"

But, again, look at what you keep calling what you say Jehovah and Jesus found to be "food in due season."

41 minutes ago, Queen Esther said:

Its SO different in all Countries, dear HollyW...  I already saw many Brothers with nice, small beards ;o)  Seems so, its not banned, lol 

As usual with WTS bans, the beard ban has undergone some 'adjustments' so that if it's a cultural thing in ones area, JW men are permitted beards now (still not for women, though ;))

So when you say "thank you" to Russell, do you believe he hears and answers you?

Really?  The WTS has pretty much discarded what Russell said the truth was and took some extra-ordinary steps, such as banning beards (on men ;)) to discourage the creature worship they felt was going to Russell.

17 hours ago, Eoin Joyce said:

On 9/26/2016 at 11:13 PM, JW Insider said:

Christ was still present in 1914 because he had been present since 1874.

That is my point.

But that isn't the point on page 20 of the book.  It's saying that it was in 1914 that they began to discern the sign of Christ's presence.  That isn't true.  That's why I asked if you would reword their sentence to make it tell the truth.  You seem to indicate that you do know it isn't an accurate statement yet you continue to try to uphold it.

17 hours ago, Eoin Joyce said:

However, a ZWT article of Feb 1 1904 is entitled Universal Anarchy - Just Before or After Oct. 1914.

And a quote from ZWT Nov 1 1904 commenting on a newspaper article states:

"The above clipping, we believe, is from The Saturday Evening Post. We print it not for its own sake as an item merely, but also because it so closely coincides with our expectations, based on the divine Word - regarding the ending of “Gentile Times” in October, 1914, when will follow the time of trouble such as was not since there was a nation;“-the anarchous period which will in divine providence be followed by the kingdom rule of everlasting righteousness."

Later in Dec 1 1904, after some gobbledegook about Israel's restoration, the WT mentions:

"It is to be accomplished in the day of trouble, shortly after October, 1914, we believe."

I do not care much about the context of these articles which is, frankly, often indecipherable. However, without any further trawling, I have to submit that there was definitely a view that "a (particular) time of trouble would begin in that marked year" (1914).

Let's look again at the statement in "God's Kingdom Rules" on page 22:

Notice that it is saying "long before 1914" -- it's a bit of a stretch, don't you think, that they mean 10 years is "long before 1914"?

Also, do you see how you are characterizing the very publications Jehovah and Jesus would have been inspecting and evidently approving as "food in due season"?  I mean, I'm very glad you see how off-base those publications are, but to maintain that God reviewed them and considered them proper spiritual sustenance is contradictory.

On 7/30/2016 at 10:59 AM, JAMMY said:

A few English translations of the Bible do use Jehovah in the New Testament. For example, William Newcome, in what is sometimes known as "Archbishop Newcome's new translation", has the name Jehovah a few times where the New Testament quotes from the Old Testament, such as Matthew 22:24.^[20]

Hi Jammy, thanks for this information.  In looking at this translation at Google books, most of the times Jehovah is used in it are in footnotes.  As to the OT quotes that have Jehovah in the actual text of this translation, there apparently is only one, which is Psalm 110:1 each of the three times it is quoted: Matthew 22:24; Mark 12:36; Acts 2:34.

The other times are all in these footnotes:

https://books.google.com/books?id=LjATAAAAQAAJ&pg=116&Ipg=PA116#v=onepage&q&f=false

6 hours ago, JaniceM said:

 

Hi Holly,

I think probably the last information regarding 1919 is the same, although I'm not good at keeping up with what happened when.  Insider, might be a better person to research that particular aspect if he has time.  Right off hand, I did locate perhaps that latest on that topic below: 

 

*** w07 1/1 p. 28 par. 12 “The First Resurrection”—Now Under Way! ***
12 At this point, it may be helpful to consider what might be viewed as a Bible parallel. Jesus Christ was anointed as the future King of God’s Kingdom in the fall of 29 C.E. Three and a half years later, in the spring of 33 C.E., he was resurrected as a mighty spirit person. Could it, then, be reasoned that since Jesus was enthroned in the fall of 1914, the resurrection of his faithful anointed followers began three and a half years later, in the spring of 1918? That is an interesting possibility. Although this cannot be directly confirmed in the Bible, it is not out of harmony with other scriptures that indicate that the first resurrection got under way soon after Christ’s presence began.

Do you have the exact quote for what you mentioned:

"The WTS says this has been taking place ever since as each spirit-anointed JW dies faithful to the teachings of the WTS.  In heaven Jehovah then creates a spirit body to house what he remembers about their character and personality. ."

It would be sufficient for me to say the scriptures state persons resurrected to the heavens will be given a spiritual and/or incorruptible body.  I assume they they would more than likely have the same new personality they acquired once they dedicated themselves to following in Christ footsteps. 

Hi Janice, and thank you.  Yes, the quote from the 2007 WT is what brings up the question about the timing of the first resurrection because it seems to cast some doubt on the WTS's earlier teachings about 1918 being the date the resurrection began.  The importance of this teaching should cause all JWs to research this because their religious leaders say that teaching wrongly about it is what the Bible brands as apostasy. (see 4/1/1986 wt p.31)

For the exact quotes you've asked for, let's start with the WTS definition of resurrection:

Notice that it is not a spiritual body but a spirit body that the anointed JWs are to have their life patterns reactivated in.  A spiritual body is described in 1 Corinthians 15 as a physical body that comes back to life and is clothed with immortality and incorruption.

The following quote shows that as each anointed JW dies, he/she is 'resurrected' as a spirit and goes to heaven (some publications say this resurrection takes place in heaven):

I think the Revelation Climax book is still the current WTS commentary on Revelation and it has this on pages 103-104:

Hope this helps.

On 9/26/2016 at 3:34 PM, JaniceM said:

 

I personally would not be an expert in the subject or the exact year in time, but Jehovah Witnesses believe that after Jesus was enthroned in the kingdom, the beginning of those that would rule with Christ were resurrected.  Those resurrected throughout the centuries would have begun with the apostles and many of the early disciples.  If any remain on earth at the time of Christ's arrival, my understanding is that they would have to die or be baptized into the death of Christ and then instantly resurrected to join Christ and the angels in the war of Armageddon.

Thanks, Janice.

I'll see if I can put some dates the WTS applies to the first passage I quoted:

1 Thessalonians 4:16-18, “For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet of God; and the dead in Christ shall rise first. The WTS says this event took place some time in 1918.  Jehovah created spirit bodies and in them reactivated the life patterns of the apostles, the early Christians, and those Christians who died faithful in the years between the first century A.D. and 1918

17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.” The WTS says this has been taking place ever since as each spirit-anointed JW dies faithful to the teachings of the WTS.  In heaven Jehovah then creates a spirit body to house what he remembers about their character and personality.

 Do you know if this is still their teaching or if they've changed the timing of this resurrection again?

Also, does it seem like Paul is writing about two separate events, one that takes place immediately and the next that takes place over many decades?

2 hours ago, 77benjamins said:

 I apologize. It was not meant as an insult or name calling. It was a quote from scripture that the other member would understand. It will not happen again.

Apology accepted, Ben.

6 hours ago, Eoin Joyce said:

Thanks for your kind expressions @HollyW. I hope they are as sincerely meant as they sound. 

Absolutely!