HollyW

Doesn't the WTS teach using appropriate terms depending on your audience?  Obviously the girl whose story Jay Witness posted was not talking to JWs so she used terms her audience would understand.  Christians and others outside the WTS don't realize JWs believe they all are going to hell (Sheol, Hades) (except the 144,000) and saying she was afraid she wouldn't be resurrected wouldn't have meant much to non-JWs.

How can you and Anna strain at this gnat and overlook the child who was doubly abused, first by the rapist and then by her parents!

On 8/1/2016 at 8:29 AM, HollyW said:

Let's take a look at the Bible evidence Russell had been saying would prove him right about the end of the Gentile times.

This is from his book called "The Time Is At Hand" which he wrote in 1889:

In this chapter we present the Bible evidence proving that the full end of the times of the Gentiles, i.e., the full end of their lease of dominion, will be reached in A.D. 1914; and that that date will see the disintegration of the rule of imperfect men. And be it observed, that if this is shown to be a fact firmly established by the Scriptures, it will prove

Firstly, That at that date the Kingdom of God, for which our Lord taught us to pray, saying, "Thy Kingdom come," will begin to assume control, and that it will then shortly be "set up," or firmly established, in the earth, on the ruins of present institutions.

 

Secondly, It will prove that he whose right it is thus to take the dominion will then be present as earth's new Ruler; and not only so, but it will also prove that he will be present for a considerable period before that date; because the overthrow of these Gentile governments is directly caused by his dashing them to pieces as a potter's vessel (Psa. 2:9; Rev. 2:27), and establishing in their stead his own righteous government.

 

Thirdly, It will prove that some time before the end of the overthrow the last member of the divinely recognized Church of Christ, the "royal priesthood," "the body of Christ," will be glorified with the Head; because every member is to reign with Christ, being a joint-heir with him of the Kingdom, and it cannot be fully "set up" without every member.

 

Fourthly, It will prove that from that time forward Jerusalem shall no longer be trodden down of the Gentiles, but shall arise from the dust of divine disfavor, to honor; because the "Times of the Gentiles" will be fulfilled or completed.

 

Fifthly, It will prove that by that date, or sooner, Israel's blindness will begin to be turned away; because their "blindness in part" was to continue only "until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in" (Rom. 11:25), or, in other words, until the full number from among the Gentiles, who are to be members of the body or bride of Christ, would be fully selected.

 

Sixthly, It will prove that the great "time of trouble such as never was since there was a nation," will reach its culmination in a world-wide reign of anarchy; and then men will learn to be still, and to know that Jehovah is God and that he will be exalted in the earth. (Psa. 46:20)  The condition of things spoken of in symbolic language as raging waves of the sea, melting earth, falling mountains and burning heavens will then pass away, and the "new heavens and new earth" with their peaceful blessings will begin to be recognized by trouble-tossed humanity.  But the Lord's Anointed and his rightful and righteous authority will first be recognized by a company of God's children while passing through the great tribulation--the class represented by m and t on the Chart of the Ages (see also pages 235 to 239, Vol. I); afterward, just at its close, by fleshly Israel; and ultimately by mankind in general.

 

Seventhly, It will prove that before that date God's Kingdom, organized in power, will be in the earth and then smite and crush the Gentile image (Dan. 2:34)--and fully consume the power of these kings.  Its own power and dominion will be established as fast as by its varied influences and agencies it crushes and scatters the "powers that be"--civil and ecclesiastical--iron and clay.

Available online at http://wtarchive.svhelden.info/english/books-and-tracts/ and http://www.ctrussell.us/ctrussell/ctrussell.nsf

So, these are the events you would be expecting when you imagine yourself in the dining room that day in October 1914 when C.T. Russell announced that the Gentile times had ended.  These events are the evidence that would prove October 1914 was the correct date Biblically for the end of the Gentile times.  Perhaps someone who feels strong enough spiritually to defend him or her self biblically could show which, if any, of these events took place.

 

Were any of these points mentioned at all when you discussed the letter from the GB when you started your study of the book,"God's Kingdom Rules" ?

7 hours ago, ThePraeceptor said:

You simply didn't like the answer. Read my previous post again please. All of it.

None of your previous posts answer what I've asked.  You only think you answered the question, you didn't.  A response is not an answer, it's merely a response, and while I thank you for your responses, for our discussion to continue, I'd rather you just answered the question.

The official response has been suggested as: "We aren't false prophets because we never said any of those false prophesies in Jehovah's name."

Jehovah’s Witnesses, in their eagerness for Jesus’ second coming, have suggested dates that turned out to be incorrect. Because of this, some have called them false prophets. Never in these instances, however, did they presume to originate predictions ‘in the name of Jehovah.’ Never did they say, ‘These are the words of Jehovah.’ 
 

The scriptures Christians base their belief in the rapture on are the following:

1 Thessalonians 4:16-18, “For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet of God; and the dead in Christ shall rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.”

1 Corinthians 15:20-23, “But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep. 21 For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all shall be made alive. 23 But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ’s at His coming.”

1 Cor. 15:51-52, “Behold, I tell you a mystery; we shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed.”

Does the WTS still say this event is an ongoing one since 1918 involving just a small segment of Jehovah's Witnesses as "the dead in Christ" ?

25 minutes ago, Anna said:

It says a "mature Christian". We are all at different levels of Christian maturity, learning and adjusting out views and opinions. It also suggests there is nothing wrong with a personal opinion, it is the advocating or insisting on it. That is immature. As for harboring private ideas, well, no one can stop private ideas, and no one except Jehovah needs to know about them. Again to what extend and what KIND of private ideas one harbors does have a baring on the maturity of the Christian. The operative idea is NOT "harboring". This suggests that on the contrary, we should be able to talk about them. And if these private ideas foster doubt, then we should definitely talk to a mature Christian about them.

As regards "To survive the great tribulation and Armageddon, the WTS says the great crowd must be JWs in good standing" JWInsider has covered that.

I'm all for you having your own opinions, Anna, but what I posted is from your own religious leaders and I'm not sure they want you quibbling and mouthing objections to what they've said, do you?  You seem to be coming up with all sorts of excuses not to accept what they've said.

Does JW Insider share the view of the men on the WTS Governing Body, the viewpoint I posted from the Revelation Climax commentary or is he voicing his own opinion? 

Ben, Anna, no compassion for a sixteen year old forced to marry her rapist and have his child?  Shouldn't he have been disfellowshipped for what he had done to her?  You're reflecting the attitudes of her parents who sound they were only concerned about the father's standing in the congregation and not the well-being of their daughter.

1 hour ago, Anna said:

I have given my opinion in my answer to JWInsider

First, since “oneness” is to be observed, a mature Christian must be in unity and full harmony with fellow believers as far as faith and knowledge are concerned. He does not advocate or insist on personal opinions or harbor private ideas when it comes to Bible understanding. Rather, he has complete confidence in the truth as it is revealed by Jehovah God through his Son, Jesus Christ, and “the faithful and discreet slave.” By regularly taking in the spiritual food provided “at the proper time”—through Christian publications, meetings, assemblies, and conventions—we can be sure that we maintain “oneness” with fellow Christians in faith and knowledge.—Matthew 24:45. (Watchtower, August 1, 2001, p.14)

To survive the great tribulation and Armageddon, the WTS says the great crowd must be JWs in good standing----You don't agree with that?

Has the Revelation Climax commentary has been adjusted to say different.   

On 9/21/2016 at 11:40 AM, Anna said:

or, Jehovah will judge their hearts and allow nearly HALF of the people, (agnostics or believers in false Gods) entry into the new world without them even needing to know him.

WTS says No.  Their viewpoint from Revelation Climax p. 126:

How do individuals of the great crowd qualify for survival? The elder tells John that they have “washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.” In other words, they have exercised faith in Jesus as their Ransomer, have made a dedication to Jehovah, have symbolized their dedication by water baptism, and “hold a good conscience” by their upright conduct. (1 Peter 3:16, 21; Matthew 20:28) Thus, they are clean and righteous in Jehovah’s eyes. And they keep themselves “without spot from the world.”—James 1:27.

25 Further, they have become zealous Witnesses of Jehovah—“rendering him sacred service day and night in his temple.”

On 9/15/2016 at 3:22 PM, Melinda Mills said:

When one uses the term in everyday speech, one doesn't discriminate, so why would you ask that? If you say 'my grandmother's generation' you think of all people born around that time, and you don't usually think about religion.  So you would see why Jesus did not think to qualify it.

Melinda, you had indicated that Jesus would have had in mind both believers and unbelievers in "this generation".  In view of what you're studying this week in the book, "God's Kingdom Rules", would you care to revise your answer to now exclude unbelievers?

 16. "This generation." Did Jesus have in mind unbelievers? No. Consider his audience. Jesus related this prophecy to a few apostles who had "approached him privately." (Matt. 243) The apostles would soon be anointed with holy spirit. Note also the context. Before he spoke about "this generation," Jesus said: "Now learn this illustration from the fig tree: Just as soon as its young branch grows tender and sprouts its leaves, you know that summer is near. Likewise also you, when you see all these things, know that he is near at the doors." Jesus' anointed followers-not unbelievers-would see the things he foretold and would discern their significance, namely, that Jesus "is near at the doors." Therefore, when Jesus spoke of "this generation," he had in mind his anointed followers.

6 hours ago, ThePraeceptor said:

 

On 9/23/2016 at 3:47 AM, HollyW said:

Again,  Is that the correct message the WTS is trying to convey?

I have already answered...

 

You responded, you didn't answer.

Martha having been a JW before her 40 year period of being inactive as a JW from 1974 to 2014 (or pick any 40 year period prior to January 2015), Martha would have still believed the truth was that organ transplants were cannibalism and were prone to causing personality changes.  This ‘truth’ didn’t change until 1980, and by 1989 organ transplants were being commended as having helped people.

Blood transfusions-----even of the component parts of blood----were a disfellowshipping offense back when Martha became inactive.  She’ll find that now the truth has changed again and blood transfusions are acceptable as long as the whole blood is broken down into fractions.  Also that violating the WTS ban on blood does not bring disfellowshipping but disassociation (a distinction without a difference since the punishment is the same for both: shunning.)

5 hours ago, Eoin Joyce said:

Imaginative, but of course the big "IF". (My formatting).

Subsequent speculations on "Martha" are subject to that suppposition. 

Were you(@HollyW a Jehovah's Witness during the period you reference in your hypothesis?

I was, but your scenarios bear only a 60% resemblance  to what was my experience so, unfortunately, there is a bit of a credibility gap in your assertions.

I wish we could get some authenticity into these postings....................................

 

This is from the brochure:

Page 10: “My new job improved our family’s standard of living, but it also led me into all sorts of questionable activities. I began to celebrate holidays, to participate in political events, and even to attend church. I was inactive as one of Jehovah’s Witnesses for 40 years. The more time that went by, the more I thought I was beyond Jehovah’s forgiveness. I felt that I couldn’t forgive myself. After all, I knew the truth before I headed down the wrong path.”—Martha.

Do you believe it is authentic or made up?

Martha’s story is in the Return to Jehovah brochure which came out in January of 2015.  Martha claims to have been inactive for 40 years before she returned to the WTS.  If that return was in 2014, the year before the brochure came out, she would have been inactive from about 1974. 

Returning to the WTS is also called returning to Jehovah by JWs, but it is also called returning to the truth…..a word that becomes rather fluid among JWs since it doesn’t ever refer to the truth of their teachings.  One has only to look at what WTS teachings were 40 years ago when Martha became inactive, to what those teachings are today.

The world was going to end in 1975……obviously not the truth.

There were no more spirit-anointing going on to fill the ranks of the 144,000….not true any more.

The 144,000 were the faithful and discreet slave…….not true any more.

The faithful and discreet slave was appointed over all the Master’s belongings…….not true any more.

The other sheep were the belongings of the parable at Matthew 24:45-47…….they’ve been elevated to domestics now.

The generation of Matthew 24:34 would be remembered by Martha as being, beyond question, worldly people, as described in the wt:

This teaching has gone thru three changes since Martha became inactive.  I wonder if she would recognize the current “overlapping” scenario as being “the truth.”

4 hours ago, ThePraeceptor said:

Meet with her to find out, if she wants to tell and talk about it is a sign of interest for her spiritual well being. What she had been doing is personal and to be honest if she doesn't tell or if she lies no one (human) will ever know.

Did you read this brochure in Greek?!

Martha has admitted what she did during those 40 years of being an inactive JW.  How else did the WTS get her story.  The implication in the brochure is that she was welcomed back with open arms.

Again,  Is that the correct message the WTS is trying to convey?

LOL. It wasn't a very bright day for a lot of folks.  You've probably always looked forward to being on earth, not in heaven with Jesus, so I don't know if you can imagine what it must have been like to look forward to being in heaven and then have the door shut in your face.  That's what happened to a great multitude of folks that day.  Right out of the mouth of Rutherford.

7 minutes ago, Alexa said:

Thank you HollyW, i love your reference and all of those things 

Thank you, Alexa.

59 minutes ago, Alexa said:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Franklin_Rutherford Is this accurate? 

I had to repost because of the formatting.  Sorry about that.

Anyway, the article you linked to does mention this incident:

The Proclaimer's book describes how the Jonadabs came about and what led to them coming to the 1935 convention:

And the 1988 wt describes what happened at the convention:

Those designated up to this time as the great crowd would not have stood up because their hope was a heavenly one, so they sat there and listened as that heavenly hope was dashed for them by Rutherford giving their designation to the Jonadabs, a group who weren't even called Jehovah's Witnesses at the time.

Ahem you two......he closed the door of heaven in their faces:

 “But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you shut off the kingdom of heaven from people; for you do not enter in yourselves, nor do you allow those who are entering to go in."  Matthew 23:13

And the way he did it was not to even address it to THEM.  No, he had invented a class of earthly hopers a few years before whom he called the Jonadabs and at the convention he had them stand up and then pointing them he pronounced that THEY were the great crowd.

Is it any wonder everyone was speechless?!  He had just ripped a heavenly hope away from a great crowd who had remained seated when he asked those with an earthly hope to stand up.

9 minutes ago, Anna said:

 

Just history and experience Holly

Was that maybe the answer you were looking for then, that Yes, only Jehovah's Witnesses will be saved.

7 minutes ago, Anna said:

Holly, I'm afraid I do not subscribe to the beliefs of Christendom. To me, their leaders are counterfeit Christians, and most of who follow them, or profess to be Christians are such in name only.

That's quite the broad brush you're painting with there.

On 9/21/2016 at 8:54 AM, Shiwiii said:

How is this statement accurate in light of scripture?

Ch. 1 par. 9

9 How will God’s Kingdom come? When we pray, “Let
your Kingdom come,” we are asking that the Kingdom take
decisive action. When the Kingdom comes, it will exert its
full power toward the earth. It will remove the present wicked
system of things, including all man-made governments,
and bring in a righteous new world. (Dan. 2:44; 2 Pet. 3:13)

 

I can see how Daniel applies to an extent, but the 2 Peter 3:13 does not. What did Jesus say? 

Luke 17:20&21

"Once, on being asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, “The coming of the kingdom of God is not something that can be observed, 21 nor will people say, ‘Here it is,’ or ‘There it is,’ because the kingdom of God is in your midst.”

 

How do you reconcile this book with scripture? 

From what Melinda quoted, JWs don't want the Kingdom of God to be in their hearts, they just want it to be close to their hearts, as the Kingdom Rules book points out, the Kingdom is close to Jesus' heart and Jehovah's heart so JWs are told, "Each of us does well to ask, 'Is God's Kingdom close to my heart?'" [pages 6,7]

Good points, Shiwiii about the coming of the kingdom.

17 hours ago, AllenSmith said:

You and HollyW continue the same drivel. You do better to understand scripture, and not just come in to disagree with everything the WTS says. We know your hateful stance in not willing to understand the WTS doctrine, and that it's guided by the inspired word of God. Not men like you people of the Pharisees.

1 hour ago, Arauna said:

 Maybe you call our thoughts drivel because you feel that your understanding of the scriptures is correct..   

I hope it's AllenSmith you are admonishing about his use of "drivel". 

1 hour ago, ThePraeceptor said:

The fact that someone remained out of the congregation for a time (by choice or by disfellowshipping) is discipline enough. What more discipline would you have him/her suffer?

For the example of Martha in the brochure, I wouldn't recommend any disciple for her at all.  She felt sorry for what she believed were sins and she confessed them to God and believed she was forgiven.

Do you believe the elders would not meet with her to find out why she had been away so long and what she had been doing during that time?

15 hours ago, Jesus.defender said:

As always, it will be missing the gospel message.

What seems to me to be missing from the brochure is any mention of those returning being disciplined. Why is that?

Martha's story stood out because of the length of time she was an inactive JW, and because her sins were of the gross kind to the WTS: politics, birthdays, churches.  But no mention of the elders sitting down and talking to her to determine what her sins were for those 40 years, how many times she had committed those sins, and which ones, if any,she was still practicing. The brochure's recounting of Martha's experience gives the impression that after having confessed her sins to Jehovah and evidently been forgiven by him, she returned to the meetings and was welcomed back with open arms.

Is that the correct message the WTS is trying to convey?

16 hours ago, Jesus.defender said:

Also, "return to Jehovah" would imply we were with Him before coming to earth, aka: mormon theology

We both know "return to Jehovah" means "return to the WTS", don't we.