Noble Berean

22 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

He will pummel you to a finish.

Nice use of language.

"Jehovah examines the righteous one as well as the wicked one; He hates anyone who loves violence" (Psalm 11:5).

5 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

It is typical of this world. When it at last wakes up to a moral problem, it wildly overreacts.

The most blatant and current example is not in pedophile accusations at all, but in college campus accusations of rape. 

http://www.weeklystandard.com/why-campus-rape-tribunals-hand-down-so-many-guilty-verdicts/article/2010401

the article describes how it is almost impossible for an accused male student to win. It describes how, when the accuser's story is inconsistent or doesn't add up, that is dismissed as an expected result due to trauma.

The prevailing cockeyed thinking is very much like the one advanced by @Noble Berean

"why would you even want to take the chance of a sexual predator persisting in the congregation?" Simply substitute "college campus" for "congregation" and the thought is his.

Do you work closely with children? In the States it's the standard that individuals who work with children are mandated reporters. That makes it a crime not to report an allegation. And child abuse allegations are perceived differently than adult rape cases. I haven't heard of mandated reporting for adult rape, so drawing that comparison isn't effective.

Sadly, children often times do not have an advocate at home in cases of abuse. That's why it's important to report. 

31 minutes ago, Gone Fishing said:

Well, let's report the lot then?

Not sure what that means

8 minutes ago, Gone Fishing said:

So you are in the Lord Denning school of thought on justice then:

“It may be better that innocent people should serve life sentences than that the law should be seen to make gross errors” (Lord Justice Denning 1899 – 1999)

Also, do you feel that "the psychological trauma of a false allegation." does not apply to the child at the centre of it?

You are adding confirmation to my view that finding of solutions to the problems in this area of tragic evil requires the concentrated effort of far better minds than those exhibiting the emotive, unbalanced, and limited perspective that appears in these postings.

 

There is no perfect justice system except Jehovah's justice system. At this stage, we have to make due with the imperfect systems we live under. Yes, there are miscarriages of justice in the legal system, but our organization's justice system isn't free from mistakes either. I'm asking you...why would you even want to take the chance of a sexual predator persisting in the congregation?

7 minutes ago, Witness said:

Unless it can benefit them in Russia.

Well that's just human nature isn't it? They want to use it when it helps them out and not use it when it hurts them. At the end of the day, the goal of the organization is to act in its best interests. I think that the Russia situation still fits what I said about avoiding the legal system as much as possible, because that was an extreme case when the organization felt the courts were the only option left.

9 hours ago, Gone Fishing said:

To say that, in the case of unproven allegations of child abuse, "reporting does not convict" displays a level of naivety, which, when compounded by an unqualified belief that "the police have capabilities to uncover wrongdoing" can only lead to gross injustice.

I am afraid that the finding of solutions to problems in this area of tragic evil requires the concentrated effort of far better minds than those exhibiting such emotive, unbalanced, and limited perspective.

I understand that false allegations occur, but the well-being of a child trumps the psychological trauma of a false allegation. So, that really isn't an excuse not to report. Of course the police are not perfect, but they are more capable of doing a proper, thorough investigation than the elders. The police can obtain warrants to search property and uncover evidence, but the elders must rely on willing testimony. The elders are very limited in their investigation capabilities. In that way, the police can act as an aid to the elders. But it seems pretty clear that the organization wants to stay as far from the legal system as it possibly can.

6 minutes ago, Anna said:

Does that amount to nothing then?

Of course it means something. Where did I suggest otherwise? I know our WT literature makes it clear that sexual abuse is abhorrent. Those articles are referring to proactive ways to prevent abuse, but I'm referring to what procedures take place after an event has occurred. 

1 minute ago, Anna said:

@Noble Berean all the policies we have on our website thus far are THESE.  But I have a feeling that's not what you meant. Did you want to see some kind of "confession"? Like the number of pedophiles or sexual predators there are among Jehovah's Witnesses?

That's info about ways to keep safe, but I wanted to see information on how elders handle sexual abuse allegations in the congregation.

1 minute ago, Anna said:

 Evident from G. Jackson testimony, new guidelines etc.

When I have more time I will give you actual references.

Please do. It would really be great if I could just go on JW.org and they had a section on their website about their policies on sexual abuse in the congregation. But it's all kept under wraps. 

1 minute ago, Anna said:

It has acknowledged its errors and is making changes.

How so? 

1 minute ago, Anna said:

Indeed it's hard to imagine, therefor I will logically deduce that this wasn't deliberate, but rather a mistake that has been going on for decades in all institutions, including government institutions and the courts. If you read the articles I posted the links to you will begin to understand. NO ONE deliberately, and with malicious intent allows a child to be molested.

Fair enough. Maybe elders didn't understand just how pervasive sex abuse was. But people know now that it's a threat. And yet there's an unwillingness to accept error or a need to change. 

18 minutes ago, Anna said:

Governments are scrutinizing their own policies because they have been found inadequate.

http://www.who.int/reproductivehealth/topics/violence/clinical-response-csa/en/

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/20816521_Incest_victims_Inadequate_help_by_professionals

https://eric.ed.gov/?id=EJ411733

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2017/sep/18/justice-secretary-urged-to-rewrite-child-sexual-abuse-guidelines

https://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/808730

https://www.ovc.gov/publications/factshts/monograph.htm

https://www.princeton.edu/futureofchildren/publications/docs/04_02_07.pdf

And lots more, too many to post...

And a willingness to change for the better is a good thing. I would respect the org if it would acknowledge its errors and make necessary changes. But the organization seems set in its ways. 

1 hour ago, Anna said:

Mandatory reporting means mandatory to anyone. This is why G. Jackson said if mandatory reporting was implemented across the country it would make the job a lot easier for everyone as evident from the transcript. But in this report, there is no mention of that. 

I'm surprised to hear there's inconsistency on mandated reporting across Australia, but it doesn't defend the organization's policies. Unlike other institutions, the organization of JWs is a religion that prides itself on having a high moral standard far surpassing the law of the land. The elders act as shepherds for the flock. They are supposed to be protecting the flock from predators. So, elders have a moral responsibility as Christians to protect the flock, and that is the case regardless of what the law of the land says.

In the case of sexual abuse of minors, elders should air on the side of caution, because it involves the well-being of children. There should be a sense of urgency to protect others in the congregation from a sexual predator. You wouldn't perceive child molestation in the same way you perceive smoking a cigarette. Smoking is morally wrong, but molestation is a heinous crime that hurts children. Perhaps you could wait around for two witnesses to a smoker, but you shouldn't wait on sexual abuse. There is absolutely no reason why elders need an allegation to be Scripturally substantiated in order to report to the police, because reporting does not convict a person. The police need to do an investigation to find evidence of wrongdoing, but the police have capabilities to uncover wrongdoing that the elders do not have. So, the police are an ally to elders in this regard. It's hard to imagine that elders sat on allegations of sex abuse and allowed predators to prey on congregations for years. I don't know how that sits well with your Bible-trained conscience.

15 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

you are absolutely right, it is controversial for those who are not able to see  

And this isn't even new news. I've been hearing about child abuse in congregations on discussion forums for the past 7 years. It's just that now the organization is facing a significant number of child abuse lawsuits worldwide and governments are scrutinizing the religion's policies. And this has gotten the attention of the media.

Well, at this point I definitely think JWs can throw out that old line "Look at those wicked Catholic Churches with their child abusing priests!"

Kind of confused how this is a "controversial topic." It's literally real, ongoing news.

IMO I think we should dance at Kingdom Halls all the time

1 hour ago, Gone Fishing said:

Do you believe you are backed by God Almighty?

I assume that God will back me on the condition that I make choices that honor him. But I'm not infallible. I can make mistakes and Jehovah God can remove his backing. Can the same be said for this organization?

@TrueTomHarley don't you think the organization's inability to acknowledge any missteps in its abuse policies shows some measure of pride?

1 hour ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Pride has nothing to do with it.

I'm sure there's some element of pride when you have total confidence you are backed by God almighty?

8 hours ago, Gone Fishing said:

Whatever the courts say is proved. If crimes are committed, they will be uncovered. Where's your faith?

Not really. The organization admitting wrongdoing is unlikely. They're too proud to do that. No matter what the outcome, the organization will spin itself as a victim. The organization will never say it has committed a crime even if the courts rule against them. They will spin at as spiritual warfare. That's just the way it is.

10 hours ago, Elisabeth Dolewka said:

@Elisabeth Dolewka I can't wait for this day when our biggest worry will be what's for dinner!

On 11/12/2017 at 7:28 AM, Srecko Sostar said:

On June 23, 2016, San Diego, California, Superior Court Judge Richard Strauss grew tired of the Watchtower Society fighting his order to produce a 1997 letter sent to all elders worldwide, and decided to sanction the religion with a fine of $4000 per day until the Watchtower complied with that order. 

Today is  November 12 2017. Quick mathematical say that this Company payed almost $2 000 000 until today. Imagine how many ice creams children in JW congregations  would be able to enjoy after Sunday meetings in KH, with this fund. Imagine how many poor bro and sis in congregations worldwide would be helped and receive some comfort for daily life.

But as Bible say: Proverbs 22:2 -"The rich and poor have this in common: The Lord made them both." 28:6 - "Better to be poor and honest than to be dishonest and rich."

Source: JW Victims.org

https://jwvictims.org/2017/10/18/news-update-watchtower-appeals-4000-per-day-fine-by-flipflopping-on-their-own-legal-argument/

https://questionsforjehovahswitnesses.files.wordpress.com/2017/11/d070723-marked-up.pdf 

@Srecko Sostar you are being personally downvoted for spreading the news about our organization and that's sad. This isn't an apostate fabrication. Does reality trigger JWs on here? Us JWs have to face the reality of what's happening instead of digging our heads in the sand. We may face these questions in the ministry. 

Honestly, the organization needs to be 100% transparent right now about their child abuse policies, because we act as representatives for them when we go out. I shouldn't have to view some weird PDF of the Shepherd's Flock book to get a grasp of the org's policies (which I still don't get). 

3 hours ago, Gone Fishing said:

Not over yet.

Ok, but what will it prove? If they win, they've still acknowledged they have a secret list of alleged abusers in the congregation. If they lose, the courts get the namelist and it appears that the organization resisted complying with secular authorities. I don't see how any of this can be spun in a positive way.

4 hours ago, Anna said:

I doubt this is true. In ex- JW circles definitely, but I have to this date never met anyone who mentions this issue door to door, or anywhere else. Just because ex- JW sites are full of this doesn't mean people in general associate us with this problem which is rife in every circle of society. In our neighborhood I counted 8 within a 3 mile radius, with one who has been convicted of sexual assault of the 1st degree on an 8 year old and he lives down the street from my house. Bare in mind these are convicted offenders, there are more who haven't been convicted, very much for the same reasons as some JWs are not convicted....

I hope that is the case...for Jehovah's name to stay clean and unblemished from these sexual abuse cases. But I believe we have only scratched the surface of these child abuse cases. As these legal cases before more frequent, I worry the media will soon eat this up. I can't imagine having to explain these policies to someone in the door-to-door ministry. I would just say I have no control over the organization's legal policies and that I would always report to the police.

Surprisingly, a man did show up at my former kingdom hall asking about the child abuse to elders. They had to lock the doors after that. There is a rumor that Leah Remini may focus on Jehovah's Witnesses as a spinoff of her show on Scientology. And I also saw that Dr. Phil might include JWs in an episode on controlling religions/cults. It's all worrying to me, but it's just another brick in the wall.