Srecko Sostar
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Posts posted by Srecko Sostar
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10 minutes ago, George88 said:
Here I thought it was God saying that this wicked system would end.
Isn't the WTJWorg "system" also "evil" in some of its elements?
WTJWorg religious leaders claim that they are imperfect and make mistakes. They admit that among JWs there are those who are not well-intentioned. They confirm this with biblical passages that "prophesy" that there will be "wolves" among themselves and that these "wolves" still exist today and that they will be there until the "end of the world".
So within the WTJWorg system there is a parallel world ruled by "evil".So how are you different from the rest of the "evil world"? You are actually a greater danger to those naive and innocent who are part of the JWs community, who believe they have found "protection" within the WTJWorg.
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1. The Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms guarantee the rights and freedoms set out in it subject only to such reasonable limits prescribed by law as can be demonstrably justified in a free and democratic society. - https://www.bccourts.ca/jdb-txt/sc/24/00/2024BCSC0027.htm
It is amusing to observe WTJWorg doing "global and international educational work" in which it announces the destruction of all forms of government and social systems, including this democratic one in Canada, because as they say, it is under the "rule of Satan".
JWs appeal to all the human rights that come from that same "secular and democratic society". It was the "democratic society" that managed to develop into this kind of libertarian society not thanks to JWs and WTJWorg, but to people with libertarian ideas, who were or were not religious.So the WTJWorg "theocratic society" is at an "advantage" over any democratic society. Under the rule of WTJWorg there is no free criticism or freedom of thought and religion. Because anyone who opposes the hierarchically established doctrine and dogma of the JWs religious leaders deserves to be excommunicated and rejected from society. In the extreme reaches of JWs theology, all such deserve to die in Armageddon, and also in the New World, according to their preaching.
Today, everyone who is not on the WTJWorg line can thank "Satan and his democratic society" for being alive at all, because according to JWs religious belief they should be "removed" from the Earth. -
From your comments, one would conclude that ex-Jws members are so powerful that they have no equal. lol
Which is so religiously important and religiously inappropriate, unacceptable in the JWs religion that it is a problem for them to send a few sheets of paper (if there are even that many) about 2 former members?
quote from https://www.bccourts.ca/jdb-txt/sc/24/00/2024BCSC0027.htm:
[1] This is a judicial review of an order made by British Columbia’s Office of the Information and Privacy Commissioner (“OIPC” and/or “Commissioner”). Two former members of the Jehovah's Witnesses each sought disclosure from their former congregations of all records that include their personal information. The elders of the congregations refused, arguing that disclosure of confidential religious notes would be contrary to their religious beliefs.
[3] The petitioners in this case are two elders, John Vabuolas and Paul Sidhu, Grand Forks Congregation of Johavah’s Witnesses, Coldstream Congregation of Jehovah’s Witnesses, and the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society of Canada. Together they argue that they should not be compelled to turn over their records to the adjudicator because PIPA infringes on their religious freedoms which are protected under s. 2(a) of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms [Charter]. They argue on this judicial review and constitutional challenge that PIPA is unconstitutional.
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It is interesting to hear Georg's assertion that any "worldly idea" that differs in some way or shape from WTJWorg theology, and if accepted by any JWs or ex-JWs, begins to be considered "apostate".
So, as long as some "worldly" claim exists only in the world and in the minds of "worldly" people, then it is only part of the "world apart from God" and does not pose a direct danger to JWs.
The moment that same claim starts to be the reason for some JWs or ex-JWs to look critically at WTJWorg, then by some unknown miracle such, until then almost marginal claim that normally lives outside the "spiritual paradise", becomes the most dangerous thing for every devoted JW.We do not find examples of this only in connection with such a disputed chronology represented by WTJWorg. Examples are found in every part of human activity. WTJWorg knows more not only about history but also about medicine, education, space, psychology, women and children.
When "WTJWorg theorists" find themselves in a dead end, they simply justify their stupidity with phrases; "We are imperfect", "We do not know", "God is not obliged to explain his decisions to us" and similar nonsense.JWs, generally, drink such an approach to explaining existing dilemmas, like water from a poisoned well of GB incompetence.
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https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/bc-jehovahs-witness-privacy-battle-1.7079252
The B.C. Supreme Court has ruled against two congregations of Jehovah's Witnesses that tried to argue their religious freedoms were infringed when the information and privacy commissioner ordered them to turn over records containing personal information about two former members.
On Monday, Justice Steven Wilson upheld an order requiring the Coldstream and Grand Forks congregations to disclose records concerning the ex-members' breaks with the church to the Office of the Information and Privacy Commissioner (OIPC).
The Jehovah's Witnesses had argued that the sealed records contain confidential religious discussions between church elders about membership matters, and releasing them would violate their rights under the Charter of Rights and Freedoms.
But the judge disagreed, saying that any violation of the congregations' religious freedoms in this case was reasonably justifiable in a free, democratic society.
"While production of the disputed records to the commissioner is not an insubstantial breach of the congregation elders' right to religious freedom under s. 2(a) of the Charter, it nonetheless furthers the interests of society as a whole by ensuring access to their personal information," Wilson wrote.
He pointed out that the order did not require the congregations to release the records to the former members who'd requested them, but only to the OIPC to determine whether they should be released under the Personal Information Protection Act. The law regulates the collection, use and disclosure of personal information by private organizations like churches.
The judge said the duties to disclose imposed by the law are meant to give British Columbians some measure of control over their personal information.
"The requirement to disclose information is a tool available to individuals to hold organizations accountable for the collection, use, and disclosure of personal information. It also serves as a deterrent to misuse and allows individuals some measure of control over their personal information," Wilson wrote.
The B.C. Humanist Association intervened in the case, and is applauding the outcome.
"An individual's right to privacy is crucial. We're pleased to see the court recognize the importance of upholding that right," the organization's executive director, Ian Bushfield, said in a news release.
The original requests for information came from Gabriel Liberty Wall, who used to belong to the congregation in Grand Forks, and Gregory Lyle Westgarde, who was part of the Coldstream congregation, according to the judgment.
The two men independently asked the congregations for records containing their personal information in 2020, and both were told they could not see documents concerning their disassociation from the Jehovah's Witnesses.
Wall and Westgarde turned to the OIPC, but the congregations told an adjudicator that the record at issue was "a confidential religious summary prepared by a committee of three congregation elders pertaining to spiritual status decisions," the judgment says.
In June 2022, the OIPC adjudicator ordered the congregations to turn over their records for review. They in turn filed a petition for judicial review, alleging that the Personal Information Protection Act is unconstitutional.
The church argued that religion should be included in an exemption to the act that says organizations are not required to disclose someone's personal information to them if it has been collected solely for journalistic, artistic or literary purposes.
The judge described that as a bridge too far.
"Reading in such an exemption would significantly compromise the government's objective in giving individuals the ability to control their personal information," Wilson wrote.
He pointed out that even under the current exemption, the privacy commissioner still has the power to review the requested information to see if it truly was collected only for the purpose of journalism, art or literature.
The Jehovah's Witnesses had also argued that if the documents were disclosed, they might be published more widely "for the purposes of mocking either the petitioners or elders, causing unnecessary embarrassment."
Wilson countered that as long as the documents remain secret, "the concerns are impossible to assess because the record is incomplete."
Comment about quote:
The church argued that religion should be included in an exemption to the act that says organizations are not required to disclose someone's personal information to them if it has been collected solely for journalistic, artistic or literary purposes.
WTJWorg and JWs congregations do not engage in "journalism, art and literature". They are run as a religious non-profit organization whose primary mission is "to spread Christianity within the JWs belief system". As part of this and such activities, they are engaged in publishing activities on paper and digitally.
"Confidential writings" regarding the "spiritual events, condition and status" of these members are partly publicly known in situations where these members are publicly reprimanded or excommunicated.
Why do we say that information is partially known? Because they contradict Jesus' instructions in Matthew 18. The congregation was not informed what is the "sin" and why a member was/should be reprimanded or expelled. The "sin of the member" is not publicly known, but the information about it must be given only to the elders who will investigate the matter and, if necessary, form a "Judicial Commission". According to Jesus, the "church/congregation" should participate in this process, and not one, two or three elders.JWs elders under the auspices of WTJWorg continue to deceive the courts and the public.
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1 hour ago, BTK59 said:
This message is no longer relevant for the participants of the closed club and former members here. Haha, it's been a decade already!
Partially agree, but the proverb says; "old joke, new fool". lol
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A little break for a joke.
A Trump supporter was seated next to an older woman on an airplane and he turned to her and said, “Do you want to talk? Flights go quicker if you strike up a conversation with your fellow passenger.”
The old woman, who had just started to read her book, replied to the total stranger: “What would you want to talk about?”
“Oh, I don’t know,” said the man. “How about how they stole the election in 2020 and Donald Trump should be president.”
“Okay,” she said. “Those could be interesting topics but let me ask you a question first. A horse, a cow, and a deer all eat the same stuff – grass. Yet a deer excretes little pellets, while a cow turns out a flat patty, but a horse produces clumps. Why do you suppose that is?”
The man, visibly surprised by the old woman’s, thinks about it and says, “Hmmm, I have no idea.”
To which the old woman replies, “Do you really feel qualified to discuss politics, when you don’t know shit?”
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1 hour ago, TrueTomHarley said:
”Key to me is Jesus words at Matthew 11:25
At that time Jesus said in response: “I publicly praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and intellectual ones and have revealed them to young children.
“What other topic is like that, in which young children get the sense of it but the wise and intellectual ones do not? I think it means that a person ought park his/her intellectualism at the door, because it doesn’t help. Per Jesus’ words, it may even hinder.
“In any academic topic I can think of, the wise and intellectual always have a leg up over the young children. Here, they lose out. Translation: Worship of God is not an academic subject and the biggest mistake one can make is to treat it as though it is. . . .
“So, at least three factors exist that trump intellectualism: obedience, humility, and love. For the most part, those who frame discussion of faith as an intellectual endeavor make no mention whatsoever of these qualities.”Children, like adults, can be wise and foolish (smart and stupid). Children, like adults, can be good and bad. Children, like adults, can be empathetic and abusive.
In Jesus' time, "children" could "understand" Jesus' teaching, because his theology did not consist of type and antitype models. His theology did not include interpretations that would change because they would prove to be wrong. His theology was not like that of Russell, Rutherford and GB.
His theology "revealed hidden things" that religious leaders obscured with their failed interpretations and ulterior motives.If today's religious leaders would like to teach people like Jesus, then they themselves must be/become "like children". Because a "child" will understand another "child". As long as religious leaders strive to be "mature, wise and spiritual" as expected of "adults" in the context and standard set by those same religious leaders, then they will not be able to come close to the example of Jesus.
Did Jesus idealize things with his statement and comparison? Maybe.
But with such a statement he did not say that only "worldly people" or members of "Babylon the Great", i.e. those who do not believe in Him in the "right way" will be such "wise and intellectual" and therefore unacceptable to God. This is often the only explanation WTJWorg has when using this Bible quote. WTJWorg thinks of itself and its members as "children" who are "humble" to understand every thing in the Bible.Unfortunately for all JWs, this boasted attitude is proving to be false. They have been caught many times in the trap of "their own wisdom and intellect".
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15 hours ago, BTK59 said:19 hours ago, JW Insider said:
It's not that Jehovah doesn't "watch" errors, but he is all-knowing and all-understanding and has provided the ransom as a means for forgiveness. So he doesn't watch for errors to slap us down like a human boss might, and he doesn't judge by the number of errors.
This statement is incorrect. God graciously offers repentance to bring about forgiveness. Therefore, those who fail to repent of their mistakes, as evident in the past biblical examples, will face divine judgment. God holds accountable those who claim to be His children, but later betray Him by renouncing their commitment, just as it happens today through baptism.
The concept, the interpretation, presented by WTJWorg, when it talks about Armageddon (and the Last Judgment at the end of the 1000 years of the New World), actually involves collecting data about someone's "mistakes/errors". Because an individual's actions include his good and bad deeds on the basis of which he is "judged".
According to the latest "clarification" a person can approach God in the last minute before Armageddon breaks out and will be saved from death.
So now we see that WTJWorg theology is getting confused, as it has been many times before. A reversal has been made that in a certain way not only invalidates additional JWs theology, but also invalidates elements from Jesus' teaching that speaks of "separating the sheep and the goats" before his judgment seat. It also cancels elements from Jesus' standard, which is that those who did good to his brothers will be in his grace, and those who did not will be rejected. It means that Jesus must have a list of when we did or did not give someone water or clothes and the like.
Separating the "sheep from the goats" as a process that takes place based on JWs preaching and people's decision to obey or reject the "good news" was the cornerstone of why JWs preach. Next to another stone, which is that the JWS should not be guilty of the blood, because they would be guilty of the blood of the "godless" if they failed to "warn" the people that the "imminent destruction" was coming.
So, do we have a God who keeps records of our actions, because he needs these records to make a judicial decision whether to leave us alive or destroy us in "Armageddon"?
Or do we have a God who will ignore all our past actions because we will turn/repent of our sins to him in the last minute before "Armageddon"?What is the real role of the much hyped and mandatory work of "preaching the good news", if people can be absolved en masse from every kind of sin because they will realize "who is the true God" in a minute before Armageddon begins?
WTJWorg will have countless members who will be like Jonah who preached the "certain destruction" of those who did not accept the "global preaching of the last days", and in the end they ALL survived.
What concept or to what extent, ratio is the official WTJWorg doctrine now advocating on this matter? -
5 hours ago, Many Miles said:
That was an instance of a person who, as an adult, returned to what he had been raised in. The situation with JWs is to the contrary. Children raised in the religion, as adults, cease identifying with it and don't return.
In directed video films for JWs conventions, those who have been excluded/dfd return.
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There is no real estate tax in Croatia, yet. They have been putting it off for decades. So the owner of the property does not pay any taxes to the state because of reason he own something, house or any other real estate.
In the case of inheritance of real estate from parents to children, no tax is paid (spouse, descendants and ancestors who form an upright line and adopted children and adoptive parents who are in that relationship with the deceased or donor). In other cases, 3% of the market value is paid. -
15 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:6 hours ago, Many Miles said:
The sole reason I cited that same authority you did was to point out JWs haven't built a social panacea. If that were the case then those raised in the religion would tend to be more compelled to remain compared to other religions
Yeah, just like the prodigal son’s dad ran a broken home. If he hadn’t, junior would have never departed.
Dad had a "rebellious-lost son" who left and came back. But dad also had a "faithful JW-son" who showed that dad made a mistake somewhere in his upbringing. Not only with the "lost son" but also with the one who "stayed at home".
Now, did the father make a mistake in upbringing, so he created a "broken household"? And where was the mother? Or was he a "single father"? Or was the older JW son actually the "goat", because he showed all the accumulated negativity when his younger brother returned?SO, MM made a good point. JWs have no solution even for their own social deviations. They have the same sufferings as the rest of the religious world, who are in "the safe place of their own religion".
I think the population of "nominal JWs" is increasing, regardless of whether they were "born into the religion" or accepted it by coming "from outside".
My impression of this view increases when I see "mute" JWs standing by the carts and carrying on their private conversations with each other a few meters away from the "source of spiritual food".
Jesus was active in reaching people with the "good news". What is "active" about standing 10-15 feet from the cart?
On the other hand, JWs want to "fix the world", because they want to "fix people" so that they turn to God. So what exactly is the WTJWorg mission? "Going/flee out of the world" and not returning to it?
So why are they fighting for tax breaks and state money? It is a form of returning to the world from which you supposedly escaped.
Or for "freedom of speech and belief"? Within their church they have complete freedom to believe their own speech.
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So, GB and their supporters/Helpers take care that even the smallest donation of a poor sister or brother is not taxed by the state. Truly, wonderful JWs brothers/elders who care for the needs of the flock.
If soft and persistent language does not help in persuading government officials to get a lower tax or a complete tax exemption, then GB advises the last measure, which is to ... sue them, all of them. lol -
55 minutes ago, George88 said:
Srecko, the link is working. The observation about the people of Sodom and Gomorra is uncertain. Will those individuals be resurrected? The GB has indeed made an accurate assessment. However, can we anticipate the inclusion of individuals who have shown nothing but contempt for God's laws? I understand how someone who was misled by circumstances might be judged for their actions. In such cases, we must follow the pattern set for "repentance." Is it possible that someone there might have had a last-minute change of heart? Unfortunately, we do not have that information.
Now, can we say the same thing about people pre-flood?
If we consider the phrase "we just don't know" regarding the argument about Adam and Eve's clothing, we should focus on how soon after their expulsion from the garden God clothed them. If they were clothed as they were forced to leave, it might be argued that they were not technically inside the garden at that moment. This suggests that God's angel may have been clothing them as they were escorted out the gate. So, should we make an issue out of something difficult to determine?
"Technically speaking", we can still use Satan as a fashion designer, because he is a "murderer from the beginning", so what would be a problem for him to kill an animal for its skin?
Figuratively, wearing leather clothing would mean that it was a specific "sign of Satan" characteristic for all those who rebel against God. lol
...., but "we don't know". lol
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1 hour ago, George88 said:
I apologize, but I am unable to comprehend your post, Srecko. It seems that there may be an issue with the link you provided, or I may be unable to access it myself. Could you please provide a brief summary of the idea you were attempting to convey?
Geoffrey Jackson as one of top leader and as one "guided by HS" openly say, "We just don't know", when speaking about some doctrine in JWs theology. But as they already prove many times, they don't know many things.
If He don't know, how you or me will know? lol
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21 minutes ago, George88 said:
I would say it's a close call. The other passage you speak of has a description of how God's angels helped Adam and Eve make their garments of skin. They had already been expelled living in a cave if I remember correctly. I think this is similar in substance to the argument you are making. When is it necessary to accept a literal form of translation and when to view it as symbolic? It's best to leave it to the reader unless scripture is seriously being distorted. Then it should be challenged in good conscience.
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15 minutes ago, BTK59 said:
It is when people rely on a literal translation without grasping the context and significance that they end up going in endless circles.
In your opinion, what is literal and what is symbolic in Genesis? The record of Moses? Or a translation?
Ah, now we will still look at the text in Genesis as a symbolic and not a literal description of what was happening?
Excellent. That suits me too. I will also manage in such a view of the description in Genesis. Then we can also question the "tree of life", right? Was it a literal or symbolic "tree"? -
5 minutes ago, BTK59 said:
What were they wearing when they were talking to God?
Their choice of clothing was fig leaves. So, very primitive and unworthy of a "perfect mind", but hey, they were in a panic so they took the first thing they could get their hands on.
But God had a stable mind that was not influenced by anger or disappointment. He also showed fashion awareness as he gave them a very nice leather set so they wouldn't embarrass him with their looks in that world outside of Paradise. lol
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9 minutes ago, BTK59 said:
Indeed, the leaves were carefully arranged to ensure they felt adequately concealed and protected. It's not hard to believe that's how they left the garden.
Wrong. They are inside Garden and have conversation with God inside Eden. Maybe the problem is in Moses' writing? lol
In Eden, God teaches them a lesson about disobedience, prophesies trouble, dresses them in animal skins, drives them out, and sets guards at the entrance to Eden.
And Jehovah God made long garments from skins for Adam and for his wife, to clothe them.+ 22 Jehovah God then said: “Here the man has become like one of us in knowing good and bad.+ Now in order that he may not put his hand out and take fruit also from the tree of life+ and eat and live forever,*—” 23 With that Jehovah God expelled him from the garden of Eʹden+ to cultivate the ground from which he had been taken.+ 24 So he drove the man out, and he posted at the east of the garden of Eʹden the cherubs+ and the flaming blade of a sword that was turning continuously to guard the way to the tree of life.
Let me know, please, if you have trouble reading the red letters. lol
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If that brother is diabetic and eats cookies/cakes, then he should definitely be reported to no one else but... to his family doctor. lol
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Part 2.
Genesis 3;
And Jehovah God made long garments from skins for Adam and for his wife, to clothe them.+ 22 Jehovah God then said: “Here the man has become like one of us in knowing good and bad.+ Now in order that he may not put his hand out and take fruit also from the tree of life+ and eat and live forever,*—” 23 With that Jehovah God expelled him from the garden of Eʹden+ to cultivate the ground from which he had been taken.+ 24 So he drove the man out, and he posted at the east of the garden of Eʹden the cherubs+ and the flaming blade of a sword that was turning continuously to guard the way to the tree of life.
If Moses was well inspired when he wrote down these things and if he wrote them down in the right order, then we have a clear picture that God first clothed Adam and Eve and only then expelled them from Paradise.
We have at least two, three possibilities, and maybe more.
A - God killed some animals and skinned them and processed them and then gave them to Adam and Eve.
B - Animals died naturally or were slaughtered by some predator, so then God processed the skin to make it suitable for clothing.
C - Adam and Eve had something to slaughter the animals with, so they processed them themselves, and it looked, symbolically, as if God had actually clothed them.
D - Or it was a miraculous event of teleportation of leather products from space, so they fell to Earth in front of Adam and Eve.
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4 hours ago, BTK59 said:
To start, it's crucial to understand that God provided clothing for Adam and Eve as they left the garden, marking their expulsion. You're suggesting that Adam and Eve remained in the garden with clothing, but you'd need to provide evidence from Genesis 3 to support this.
Then you need to clarify the word "skin" to specifically refer to "animal skin." The commonly employed term in the lexicon is "tunic." This corresponds with another term, "linen."
You refer to Genesis chapter 3, and you don't read it. So are you a privileged person who needs to be shown every Bible verse. Usually, the participant can be expected to check the biblical account himself, so if he does not find a certain text, then he can complain to another that he did not find it.
But for you, we will make an exception for who knows how many times because you are the way you are, and I accept that as my burden in communicating with you.So first of all, Genesis 3:7: "Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they realized that they were naked. So they sewed fig leaves together and made loin coverings for themselves."
Here, Adam and Eve, not knowing or being able to do otherwise, tore the leaves from the fig tree and hid their body parts, which they considered to be shameful. Text says they were "loin".What is "loin"?
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LITERARYthe region of the sexual organs regarded as the source of erotic or procreative power."he felt a stirring in his loins at the thought"
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"loin of pork"I will make a brief observation here. Why does WTJWorg show in its illustrations that God covered not only Eve's loins but also her breasts (with "animal skin") when the term used in the Bible refers only to the lower part of the body?
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1 hour ago, BTK59 said:
After they sinned. They were also expelled from the Garden because of it. What skins did God provide when they were still perfect?
Let's keep in mind that the whole episode of sinning and talking and getting leather clothing takes place within the confines of the Garden of Eden. Only when God had finished talking with them and provided them with adequate clothing did He drive them out of the Garden.
So the fact that they sinned within the confines of the Garden and were given leather clothing within the confines/boundaries of the Garden speaks for itself and disproves your remark to Many Miles.
The assumption you made that getting clothes is related to the act of sin is only partially acceptable. Because nowhere is it explicitly said that people will remain naked forever or that they will dig in the garden with fingers instead of hoes. Because how will you spread the garden, and that was God's intention, without tools? Plants should be planted, sown, but also uprooted and cut. Unless they were to use beavers, giraffes, goats and elephants for such jobs? lol
Climate change is also certain. So they would need clothes and a roof over their heads, and that again changes the way of life and has nothing to do with the status of perfection. Because both snow and ice is perfection that comes from God, too.
Trying to nail down 612 BCE as the date of Nineveh's destruction
in Topics
Posted
If humanity has been "alienated from God" since the fall of Adam and Eve and if this world is "ruled by Satan", then there is no "Biblical chronology" od "God's chronology" but only "Satanic chronology". lol