Srecko Sostar

1 hour ago, BTK59 said:

I believe you are an intelligent person, although at times that might be a stretch.

Intelligence is not the only quality that can save a person from fraud. JWs, along with many other religious people, are proof of this.

1 hour ago, BTK59 said:

You mentioned 60 years in contrast to other religions that have annual occurrences, even in your Orthodox religion within your region and among your people in your community.

Word Origin

When someone has the same opinions and beliefs as those held by most other people, these opinions are usually considered the "right" opinions to have. In English such opinions might be called "orthodox." The English word orthodox comes originally from the Greek words orthos, meaning "right, true" and doxa, meaning "opinion." These two words were combined to form the Greek verb orthodoxein, meaning "to have the right opinion." From orthodoxein came the Greek adjective orthodoxos, which was borrowed into Latin as orthodoxus. The English adjective orthodox comes from this Latin adjective. - https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/orthodox

Considering that I do not belong to any religion, your statement makes no sense. Another thing that needs to be said for objective accuracy is the term "orthodoxy". Every religion is orthodox in its essence, even when it changes in its doctrines. The country I live in is historically Catholic. JWs are orthodox because they do not accept religious change unless approved by their GB. So JWs are completely orthodox as long as they believe that they are the only ones right in claiming that their Christianity is "original" and is "only true".

1 hour ago, BTK59 said:

You are calling God a failure, yet you don't comprehend that you are the failure as his creation. 

God is as successful as his creation. Considering that God said that everything created is "good", then every person today is also "success" because he/she is the inheritor of the original act of creation. Also, God nowhere indicated that any child born of Adam and Eve is/was "failure". If you want to use a religiously colored term for something that designates me or you in some moral category, then it is the word "sinful", not "failure".

15 hours ago, BTK59 said:

This article, dated in the year 1999, predates the UN's interest in 2012. It serves as a strong argument for highlighting the Watchtower's unwavering commitment to addressing the issue of child abuse since the 60s, even before laws were passed and debated by governments worldwide in 2015.

If WTJWorg wanted to prove its "unwavering commitment" in dealing with CSA, then it should not, as in the case of the Australian branch, hide from its own public the large number of pedophiles who ran rampant in JW congregations all those 60 years and more. Moreover, the GB instructions contributed to the ineffectiveness of elders handling CSA claims within the congregation. Instead of cooperating with the civil authorities, they kept everything secret and even prevented the victims from fighting for minimal justice.

15 hours ago, BTK59 said:

Yes, that's right! The ultimate solution to these heinous crimes of pedophilia and child abuse lies in the establishment of a new world order guided by the principles of Christ. While we await this transformative era, we must diligently address the issue at hand, even if it means temporarily employing stopgap measures. We rely on individuals of unwavering morality. How do you control the uncontrollable in Satan's World? That's the Watchtowers expectation in ensuring that our collective effort maintains hope for a better future without such atrocities. 

GB has already proven its "transformative" role. After a decades of banning beards and trousers, a "successful transformation" has been carried out. Does anyone who sees only this sliver of reality about GB expect that these are the people "of unwavering morality"  who will be the foundation of the NWO you speak so passionately about? GB people who bring bans and permits about beards and pants, about monthly reports, about greeting and not greeting former JWs, etc. are not the base or foundation of some imaginary new and healthy human society. This type of individuals who are united in a specific group of manipulators of other people's faith and conscience does not deserve trust.

Are you waiting for a transformation? Transformation will not happen tomorrow or in the future. If it didn't start happening in the past or today, then it won't happen. While an individual lives, he/she is or is not part of the transformation. In which transformation are we personally participating? Will there be a transformation due to our activity or passivity? Changes happen with us or without us, that's clear. Don't wait for the NWO, because some other people will live in it. You and I already live in a form of the NWO created by people from the past. To put it simply.

@Pudgy

Thanks for the info.

So, JWs do not celebrate birthdays because it has pagan roots.

But they also shave their beards despite the fact that shaving has pagan roots.

What an inconsistency!

lol

15 hours ago, George88 said:

It is important for you to demonstrate that the DB does not receive the Holy Spirit of God.

If we want to include the biblical text in a possible answer to this dilemma, then based on the experience of people who "received HS" in the period covered by the Bible, we could come up with elements, indicators of what a person receiving HS looks like, how a person receiving HS behaves and what effects, actions in relation to people and the environment does a person who gets HS have.
Should we read together the Bible passages that describe the HS and the people of Bible time, in order to come to the answer?

Which biblical persons with the power, gift of HS can we compare with a member of GB??

And vice versa,

Which member of GB can we compare to a biblical person who acts under the power, gift of HS??

15 hours ago, George88 said:

Why would the Holy Spirit of God lead someone astray?

²⁰  Jehovah then said, ‘Who will fool Aʹhab, so that he will go up and fall at Raʹmoth-gilʹe·ad?’ And one was saying one thing while another said something else. ²¹  Then a spirit*r came forward and stood before Jehovah and said, ‘I will fool him.’ Jehovah asked him, ‘How will you do it?’ ²²  He replied, ‘I will go out and become a deceptive spirit in the mouth of all his prophets.’s So he said, ‘You will fool him, and what is more, you will be successful. Go out and do that.’ ²³  And now Jehovah has put a deceptive spirit in the mouth of all these prophets of yours,t but Jehovah has declared calamity for you.”u 1. Kings 22,NWT

⁹  “‘But if the prophet is fooled and gives a response, it is I, Jehovah, who have fooled that prophet. I will then stretch out my hand against him and annihilate him from my people Israel.

1 hour ago, George88 said:

I'm not sure if you are referring to "attorney" or "authority," but if you are implying "authority," then the responsibility lies on you, as an apostate, to provide evidence that the Governing Body does not receive God's Holy Spirit, based solely on your own words.

Sorry for google translate. It is about power, authority, authorization, mandate.

1 hour ago, George88 said:

The GB interprets scripture in the manner it was originally intended, following Christ's example. Just as Jesus highlighted the misinterpretation of the scrolls and God's words by the Pharisees, there is no alternative way to interpret scripture

quote: "..,provide evidence that the Governing Body does not receive God's Holy Spirit..,"

quote: "The GB interprets scripture in the manner it was originally intended...,there is no alternative way to interpret scripture"

In an effort to accept your claims and belief about GB, we would have to reconcile the view that the way Jesus and God works is visible in the practice of GB. They (GB) make a "biblically based" conclusion (interpretation) which later turns out to be incorrect and wrong. So Jesus and God misrepresented his ideas to them? Or did they not understand them? Truly the "divine way" of communication.

An "alternative" to the previous explanation always exists in the WTJWorg religion. Sufficient evidence to question whether GB members "got the spirit" for the dogmas that have already changed as well as those that did not (but will be, lol).

7 hours ago, George88 said:

So, let me get this straight: you're suggesting that Jesus was merely an administrator alongside the apostles. Is that what you're trying to convey? If so, I must say, you seem to be in the minority with that belief. However, I'm interested to hear more about your perspective.

I see no connection between Jesus and GB. Can you somehow prove that GB received power of attorney from Jesus? Please, without the explanations that we have already heard so many times, because they are without any value. Bring something new and real to the table.

7 hours ago, George88 said:

Please inform me where they made their demand. I am eager to receive your evidence.

Again, I direct you to listen to their speeches and written text. There is an answer to your question.

7 hours ago, George88 said:

It seems like you have a serious problem with God.

This is a good question. But it should be expanded, for example like this: Do people have a problem with God who is interpreted in the way GB does? This kind of question is also applicable to any other "God" that people worship.

7 hours ago, George88 said:

You are implying that the Watchtower should defy governments that demand compliance. However, when the Watchtower does comply, apostates witnessing such events draw the wrong conclusion and demand resistance instead of obedience. Have you considered the implications of your argument?

It is public knowledge that WTJWorg asks its followers to disobey laws that are contrary, according to the GB interpretation, to the "laws of God". The public speeches of GB members and other GB representatives have clearly expressed the intention that WTJWorg will never deviate from the "biblical principles" that are inherent and unique to the religion of JWs. So it is known who promotes disobedience to the "secular authorities" in all matters determined by the GB. So much about/for implications.

GB decide to give permission.  lol

5 hours ago, George88 said:

Why do you complain about revisions then? I can't remember a time when a recommendation turned into a license.

In the context of my comment about WTJWorg, it ceases to matter whether the revisions are evidence of JW progress or regression. They are proof that GB is nothing but an administrative creation created in the way that all human creations are created and does not prove the so-called "divine guidance" in its action.

Recommendations? You didn't listen to their Update carefully. lol

5 hours ago, George88 said:

When did you come to the realization that the Watchtower organization has attained perfection and is able to safeguard individuals from making misguided decisions due to their mental state? Like any other institution, the Watchtower provides guidance and suggestions, and it's important for you to analyze your own thoughts more critically. Are you implying that you yourself are flawless and have never committed any sins whatsoever? I'm not referring specifically to pedophilia, but rather speaking in general terms.

The mantra of "perfection" and "imperfection" is constantly present in GB speeches. You repeat after them like a parrot, pardon the expression. I did not comment on that in this thread. 

Their claim that they are "imperfect" is just an attempt to make excuses for their own failings and faulty, sometimes dangerous instruction that creates a general mess.

5 hours ago, George88 said:

The Watchtower's expectation is for everyone to embrace a Christian life and follow the teachings of God. It is a personal choice if someone falls short of that. Elders cannot prevent someone from engaging in private and secret activities as they cannot read minds. Why not ask your good friend this question? Discover what kind of response you will receive.

Follow the teachings that are mix of Bible and WTJWorg interpretations. 

Of course that elders cannot prevent secret activities of members, but they prevent secular authorities to do their job by hiding information and not reporting crimes.

7 hours ago, BTK59 said:

No, that is merely a distorted version of events, as told by uninformed witnesses and former members. Since the 60s, The Watchtower has consistently brought attention to the issue of child abuse, fearlessly delivering their message in various forms. The publicans and the letter to the Elders provide evidence of that. However, instead of learning, it seems like the wrong party is dissenting. It doesn't matter how deeply misinformed individuals hold onto lies, because ultimately, God knows the truth.

Fine, if you say so. Now I ask, of what use has this ("attention") been to the thousands of victims within the WTJWorg global organization? 
How did JW elders "protect" the herd? How did they "prevent" the spread of the "sin" of pedophilia for the last 60 years? Only recently has it become a "crime" at WTJWorg. "Evidence" shows that they failed.

8 hours ago, George88 said:

Of course, I can. Is that your bias speaking, or are you open to other perspectives?

JWs should definitely, and urgently, open new perspectives. They need that more than licenses to wear beards and pants.

8 hours ago, George88 said:

In a courtroom, the pressure to tell the truth is immense. Some succumb to the temptation to lie in order to protect themselves. However, the brother, who was not facing charges, answered sincerely and directly. Why would he even bother if it doesn't meet your expectations?

Don't pay attention to my expectations, they are my problem, not yours. lol Some statements and testimonies of JWs in the courts confirmed the fact that a man should not be expected to be principled and truthful in his own claims and self-praise that he is a "True Christian". If falsehood and deception are uttered, then it is the product of either one's own false belief in the fictions of (religious) ideology, or they are the product of conscious lying in order to protect some personal, social position in that network of (religious) deception in favor of a certain institution.
JWs have a more serious problem than fear of ex-JWs and their activism or criticism. JWs, today more than ever before, are able to distinguish falsehood from truth within their own religion. If they fail to recognize this and make important decisions based on this, then they are at a loss.

8 hours ago, BTK59 said:

You are aware that this is a global issue, one that affects all institutions around the world, including those located in your own country or place of origin as well.

Are JWs aware that the "global issue" has long been global in WTJWorg, with failed GB procedures that harm the victims in KH ?

9 hours ago, George88 said:

Given that the ARC was attempting corrosion by the language they were using and the fact Jackson could see through that manipulation, it was not appropriate to use that term either, as the commission's purpose was not to gather facts rather than assign blame. Any inexperienced lawyer could confirm this. However, since you are not a lawyer, how could you understand? You are only searching for words and relying on assumptions.

 

"Any inexperienced JW can confirm where the WTJWorg heavenly chariot is going". lol

8 hours ago, George88 said:

Here we witness the distortion spread by Srecko and Pudgy, endorsed by a renowned apostate known as "witness" who overlooks the absence of the word "apology" in the argument. This misrepresentation is a classic example of cherry-picking and distorting information to fit a particular narrative. It's important to consider the entirety of the document from the AU and the context in which it was written before drawing conclusions. 

In the Australian case, a Governing Body member showed empathy towards a victim who was identified as BCG. He acknowledged that more should have been done to support that individual and repeatedly aligned himself with the stance presented by BCG's lawyer. Therefore, attempting to create a negative impression from apostates only serves to provide further grounds for governments to resist being influenced by them.

"I don't know your client, but please, could you convey an expression of my love and concern and reassure her that obviously she has had an opportunity to speak about how she feels, and hopefully this will help the policies and procedures to improve."

Someone who shows this much empathy in their heart definitely feels sorry for the victim. I can sense a hint of remorse for the fact that more hadn't been done. 

The question is: Who wrote the government's privacy laws that the branch office had to rely on?

The GB member even went as far as suggesting that if the AU government made it mandatory for all accusations to be reported to the police, regardless of how trivial they may seem, it would be more advantageous for the Watchtower. This would effectively remove the responsibility from their hands entirely.

What was the Australian government's response? We will make some adjustments to our laws, but we will uphold the clergy privilege, and any form of reporting needs to be proven factual first. What sets apart the burden of proof standards between the Watchtower and the standard placed by the AU?
 
What about the sheer hypocrisy displayed by that commission when they initially "rejected" the idea of investigating the Australian Detention Centers for child abuse? It is truly astounding to think that even the prime minister at that time had passed a new law, forbidding doctors, nurses, or employees from speaking out against these horrific acts.

This flawed attempt to mislead others by the uneducated is yet another example of falsehoods being spread due to the omission of just one word, according to them.

I find it disappointing that some here misrepresent the facts presented by apostates and endorsed by witnesses.

Thanks for reminding me and other of GJ's statement. Can you see real grief from these words? Is there any remorse for inaction, remorse for bad GB instructions? Is there a personal desire to know the victim and show compassion? She is "Client" in GJ's eyes. Not one of "Jesus' sheep, one of the least", one of child in KH who went through horrors ?
GJ's statement was given in court because of the publicity and because of questions from lawyers and the court. The GJ statement was "given under pressure" from the public and the process. Should we consider it a deep feeling from the heart and conscience? We are not naive, if others are.

57 minutes ago, BTK59 said:

I never pay any mind to ex-witnesses, hence they simply do not bother me. When it comes to their lies, my focus lies on emphasizing the undeniable truth, completely detached from the former members' inclination to twist it to their advantage.

So, why does it matter if a Catholic lawyer is supporting the Watchtower? Are you suggesting that they shouldn't? Religion stands strong in the face of manipulative governments and the spread of falsehoods and exaggerations by former members, especially when it's time to take a stand.

Remember, there are people here who identify themselves as witnesses and are willing to embrace your perspectives, even if they may be biased. Why? Because some of them, especially females, possess a misguided loyalty. Instead of recognizing the ways in which Satan manipulates humanity through the suffering of children, they become fixated on their own personal emotions.

If someone truly grasps the essence of scripture, it would be a misguided loyalty to turn a blind eye to the devious manipulation of Satan and the individuals he employs to sow division among God's people. No matter how strongly someone believes they are a devout Christian, if they fail to recognize this larger scheme, they cannot consider themselves faithful followers of Christ, let alone true witnesses.

I think you are definitely wrong because of your imprecise and non-objective view of the problems at WTJWorg. I get the impression, from the comments, that religions like Catholic and JW are under attack from the secular government. So it's as if you're denying the reality of pedophilia within church structures, about which the atheistic-satanic structure is planting false information, slander. You don't mean it? Or? Yes, you really mean it. Terrible.

It is biased to say that some categories of people are more susceptible to disloyalty than others. To say that women are susceptible to the influence of deception and their own wrong feelings means that men are not, because that is your stated claim, it only speaks in favor of your bias. That way you lose originality and credibility. You are drowned in a mass of people who think like you. The kind of people who will never contribute to progress, but to enslavement by already seen stale prejudices.

The deviations you speak of, have thrived in WTJWorg since the very beginning, so they are no different than those in the Catholic Church. They just alternate with each other in their visibility and perversity.

12 minutes ago, BTK59 said:

It is concerning that governments are swayed by the testimonies of former witnesses, leading to the overturning of decisions made by lower courts, as seen in the case of Cardinal Pell in Australia, along with dozens of others.

No true witness should be swayed by negative comments from former witnesses and their agenda along with any disfellowshipped. That's no better.

What really bothers you? Former members or so-called "negative comments"?
And what do you think are "negative comments"? Are the "negative comments" something that is incorrect or is it what exposes religious hypocrisy?

Divine Instructions in 1993. JWs standards are changing for the better? Or are they being lowered? It's a matter of perception, some say. The so-called "Worldlings" used to be too casually dressed in the year 1993, so the JWs showed that they dress better for their meetings and conventions. Today, JWs should be more casually dressed because they were advised so by GB members. So, like "worldlings" it 1993. Is today's WTJWorg fashion policy a back to the future or a back to the past?

"Dress and grooming: During the time we are attending a convention, we should not consider ourselves to be on vacation. Rather, we are presenting ourselves to Jehovah to be taught by him. Since that is the case, should we not dress as we would when attending meetings at the Kingdom Hall? (1 Tim. 2:9, 10) In addition, we should give careful thought to what we will wear after the sessions are over. Upon returning to our accommodations, would it be consistent for us, whatever our age, to exchange our modest, dignified convention attire for clothing that would give us the appearance of slovenly dressed and unkempt worldlings? Would this not give the impression that our meeting clothes are nothing more than a costume rather than a reflection of our way of life? Remember, we are bearing the name of Jehovah, and each of us must see to it that legitimate accusation is not brought against the way of the truth." - https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/201993166

During the 2015 ARC process in Australia, not a single JW elder expressed regret for the victims. Not a single one, and among them was a member of GB who did not show grief for the victims of "his" elders. 

The same happened in other court processes where JW elders were present. 

The uniform response speaks of the unity of these JW elders. Commendable, isn't it? And where is the "biblically trained conscience"? Obviously, the permission did not arrive from the GB for the conscience to react and act. Shameful!

Attorney Matt Haverstick confirmed recently that his law firm is representing Jehovah’s Witnesses congregations around Pennsylvania on unspecified matters that are “very active right now.”

- article from 2023: https://www.denverpost.com/2023/04/19/charges-put-focus-on-jehovahs-witnesses-handling-of-abuse-2/

quote from article: The 140-member Ivy Hill congregation sued Pennsylvania’s Department of Human Services, asking Commonwealth Court to clarify whether elders are mandated reporters if they learn of child abuse through a confidential confession. Human Services runs the state’s ChildLine abuse hotline.

- article from 2018 about same Attorney Matt Haverstick: https://www.npr.org/2018/08/16/639149699/lawyer-for-2-catholic-dioceses-weighs-in-on-pa-grand-jury-report

quote from article: HAVERSTICK: Well, I think they start by apologizing for what happened. And they have. I mean, bear in mind, it is awful. It's a horrible read. It's shocking. But it is, by and large, as the grand jury found, literally from the last century. That's a church that doesn't exist anymore. The church today is deeply sorry for those events. But they don't do things that way anymore.

Until now, the eminent leading men in WTJWorg claim that no apology is necessary for anything, what GB said and did. So all other JWs elders are not obliged to apologize for their words and decisions either. An interesting point of view is represented by these JWs religious leaders. Obviously they should have some biblical quotes to support this kind of thesis? No, they don't. But that's why they CLAIM that this is the way YHVH works.
Indeed, that is reason enough to trust them. lol

video source: 

14 hours ago, George88 said:

Once more, we encounter the perspective of someone consumed by hatred. I can't help but question whether this person would have objected if Jesus and his apostles had confronted the unjust actions of the ruling authorities of their time. In this instance, I am inclined to support the GW translation. Mark 11:27-33, Luke 20:1-8

I am not convinced by the idea that Jesus would confront the Roman authorities. Just the opposite. Jesus repeatedly clashed with the Jew Religious Leaders of his time, and this is a model for today's JWs, who should face their GB.
Paul was a kind of "smart guy" of the Pharisee type who confronted the Roman authorities by referring to his "rights as a Roman citizen". Are JWs "Roman Citizens"?

37 minutes ago, Pudgy said:

However, I do not have any proof the WTB&TS is deliberately lying … if you believe something and tell that to someone else, it may be wrong, but it is not a lie.

 

My observation refers to;
- court cases in which "tactics" of deliberate "deception" are applied that are unworthy of those who claim to be bearers of the Divine Light,
-some theological "nonsense" that GB produces as "errors", but many of which have very serious consequences,
- other theological moves as an attempt to justify and support what is "unbiblical teaching", but trying to maintain "reputation",

etc.

JWs members are media dependent on only one source and that is WTJWorg. This means that they are  subject to the influence of one (only) current opinion (read misinformation) that occurs within the WTJWorg Information Department (superior to them is the Ministry of Truth managed by the GB).
As for "fake news" or misinformation (and sometimes disinformation), WTJWorg is full of it. What to call all abandoned dogmas, changed theses and teachings? Simply. Misinformation! (.., and occasionally disinformation)