Srecko Sostar

2 hours ago, George88 said:

Indeed, scripture cautions us about the manipulation of scripture by former members.

In fact, it warns of wolves that sit, stand, lie in the sheepfold. lol

5 hours ago, Juan Rivera said:

Leaving the Congregation sets an example for others, that separating is permissible.

Leaving what the Bible calls "Babylon the Great" is permitted.
And it would be allowed even if it is not written in the Bible. lol

6 hours ago, Juan Rivera said:

No. In very simple terms the Congregation cannot teach whatever she wants. And certainly cannot teach that the Old Covenant is somehow still valid or that we can be saved by it.

We already said that she cannot contradict the faith that has been handed down.

Cannot contradict the Good News that were once and for all established.

Cannot contradict the primary teachings: Hebrews 6:1,2.

Cannot contradict the core teachings.

Cannot command us to violate our conscience.

How can he/she (cong.) not? So the constant changing of rules and doctrines confirms that this is exactly what is being done. Some existing rules violates conscience very hard.

16 hours ago, Juan Rivera said:

The key to deciphering the whole ball of wax is understanding that whatever law, stipulation, precept, principle, pastoral discipline, is cited or practiced, whether it is natural law, Judaic/Mosaic law, etc., it is only because the Congregation, under its own legal authority, decided to incorporate those particular principles into the New Covenant.

What principles ruled before the appearance of humans on Earth? What principles ruled the life of Adam and Eve? What principles are incorporated in the Old Testament? What principles are incorporated in the New Testament?
From everything known and said, we come to the conclusion that the Principles are unchanging and always present throughout the entire time of "Biblical history" in both the Jewish and Christian eras.

If one of the purposes of abolishing/cessation the OT is that laws based on the same principles are not written on stone or paper, but in the hearts of men, then the existence of the WTJWorg administration is not only superfluous, but also opposition to God's purpose that man be guided by "law ( principles) in the heart".
Entire books and manuals exist to explain what, where, who and how one should say and do within the JWs congregation. How to look at it?

WTJWorg very often refers to "principles" from the OT and mirrors the procedure/solution from that era either verbatim or modified. So why was the OT abolished if a solution to today's circumstances within the NT is sought in it? Basically, both systems are based on the same pillars of value.

WTJWorg is actually corrupting the values expected in the NT by applying "outdated methods". Or through attribution that the NT contains such "principles" that cannot be found there. The last such escapade was with beards and writing reports (counting) about the number of hours and literature and other data.
The hundred years of "biblical principle" (actually 2000 years, because they refer to Jesus and the apostles who "reported the ministry of preaching") in the physical form that I mentioned, clearly has no basis in any "original principle" known to us which is associated with God when he created people or even when the OT appeared. In fact, "counting" under some circumstances was a prohibited as sin in the OT law.

8 hours ago, Juan Rivera said:

that will be needed to allow the New Covenant to function as efficiently as it possibly can.

If I am not mistaken, WTJWorg teaches that only the 144,000 are found in the New Covenant. That is why only some within the JWs community take the symbols. It turns out that most JWs are not in the Covenant.

If they are not in the Covenant, then they have no obligations towards the Covenant.

What "principles" should apply to them? The OT was only for "natural born Jews". The NT is for "spiritual Jews" only. Who are these thirds?

10 hours ago, George88 said:

Are you challenging a specific part of Scripture? Is it the term "Elder" or the entire Word of God that you are questioning?

As far as I know, the Bible itself questions the position of elders within congregations, for a significant reason, actually because of danger. And that is that within the congregation there are false elders/teachers, who are wolves in sheep's clothing.
Yes, the Bible questions the status of elders, thus opening the door for any interested person (a Christian who is part of the congregation) to question those who put themselves in the position of religious leaders. So read your Bibles dear JWs and you will see that you have a God given right to "examine the spirits". (1 John 4)

Similar subject is under topic,  Paul's Letter to the Galatians and the Struggle for Doctrinal Purity

https://www.theworldnewsmedia.org/topic/90791-pauls-letter-to-the-galatians-and-the-struggle-for-doctrinal-purity/

35 minutes ago, George88 said:

Can you offer evidence of Jesus attending a school of thought to become a Rabbi, according to the understanding of priestly qualities in Judaism?

One way to comment on your question would be something like this;

Jesus' "elders", were chosen by Jesus and by God and HS, if I remember the biblical account correctly. In the continuation of their activities, they were "inspired" and were "guided" (even if it is one and the same) by HS. Jesus "taught" his elders how to do their ministry.

From further activities, described in the "Scriptures", I did not see that the future elders went to some courses or that they finished some schools within a particular Congregation or within an Area (Circuit) in which several congregations operate. Obviously, it was to be expected that their placement in the service "by HS", at that time by "laying hands" on these new elders, was sufficient accreditation. It is to be expected that "spirit-led" elders do not need anyone's "teaching" because HS teaches them how to act and how to make decisions.

In today's context, JWs elders should not go to "courses" organized by WTJWorg, because it is to be expected that they were also "appointed to the ministry" by the HS, at least that is what WTJWorg claims. And those that are "appointed and led by HS" should not be "led" by another person or organization, right?

WTJWorg's desire to be recognized by the world authorities like their Catholic counterparts, namely that they (JWs elders) are members of the JWs Clergy, does not support the public claims that JWs do not have "paid clergy". It can only mean that maybe JWs will have "unpaid clergy". lol

29 minutes ago, George88 said:

This is a misconception. The Watchtower does not dictate how the court will assess that privilege.

On Sept. 21, 2021, Ivy Hill filed a motion for summary judgment, again requesting a declaration that its elders are “entitled to invoke the clergyman privilege under Section 6311.1(b) of the CPSL and Section 5943 of the Judicial Code, and, in the event the court determined that Section 5953 does not apply to its elders, that Section 5943 be deemed unconstitutional.”

JWs insist, for a very long time, on being treated as "clergy" before the courts. Or in a some wider context known only to WTJWorg' "creators of future". Reference has already been made in previous CSA cases to the Catholic clergy, and their (JWs) status as a clergy inside JWs Congregations.

"Catholic type of confession" is in a form in which one priest and one person who "confesses his sin" have a special relationship.

Of course, this is nothing like the JWs elders who examine the "sinner" in a three-member commission ( Judicial Committee) and determine the "guilt or innocence" of the sinner.

As far as can be seen, the purpose of the "Catholic confession" is to forgive the sinner and to appease him and lead him on the right path without "sanction" of excommunication.
With "JWs confession" one tries to determine whether there is guilt on the part of the one who is "confessing".
Different forms of "confessions" are here in question and different methods and processes through which the "sinner" is guided.

Also, there is a huge difference between becoming a "priest" in the Catholic Church and becoming an "elder" in the JWs Church.
If JWs want to be like the "clergy" in the Catholic Church, judging by their demands to be treated in court the same as the Catholic clergy, then we wonder; do JWs elders want to go through the same requirements as candidates for the Catholic Priesthood? To finish college, not to get married and the like?

Controversial demands of JWs will mean controversial solutions in WTJWorg theology and practice. It remains to be seen how the courts will view and resolve this, and how the WTJWorg Administration (read, GB) will adapt to it.

Articles:

Pa. courts weigh whether Jehovah's Witnesses elders must report confessed child abuse

- https://pennrecord.com/stories/654791353-pa-courts-weigh-whether-jehovah-s-witnesses-elders-must-report-confessed-child-abuse

PROCEDURE-COORDINATE JURISDICTION RULE-JEHOVAH’S WITNESSES

- https://www.riederstravis.com/procedure-coordinate-jurisdiction-rule-jehovahs-witnesses/

7 Steps to Become a Catholic Priest

- https://catholicworldmission.org/how-to-become-a-priest/

8 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Man, you are petty and self-blind, aren’t you?

The above is an excellent example of ‘Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and you will feed him for a lifetime.’ Who can’t see the superiority in that?

Why on earth can’t you emulate the Jehovah’s Witness’ relief effort among whoever you associate with? Then, you would be so occupied, you would have neither time nor cause to be envious of the deeds of others.

People without Bible principles tend to be slow to roll up their sleeves. They also not to get along, so cooperation is amongst them is difficult. All they have to do is adopt the Bible principles that Witnesses have, and they’d be okay. Your assignment is to discern what impels Jehovah’s Witnesses to do what almost nobody else does, make a full mea culpa, and then take your leave as gracefully as you can.

But man, well, nobody hates you. Why such resistance and bitterness? lol

Can you state what types (in what form) of humanitarian aid officially exist in your religion? And where can it be read in your literature, please?

10 hours ago, George88 said:

Glad to read you agree with me, that I have proved JWI wrong. I'll accept that. However, that's not what you mean with 607 1914, since 587 would be included, unless you have a different way of rationalizing, that humanity is unaware of.

You haven't proven anything against JWInsider.
We have only proven that the WTJWorg chronology is not a "sacred cow" or "sacred calf" aka idol.

10 hours ago, George88 said:

For sure, the Individuals from the Watchtower appreciate thinking as opposed to not thinking. However, you still undermine JWI's perception no matter how hard you try to justify your nonsense.

When scripture mentions certain applications that lead to chronology, are you saying God created an "idol" different from him?

I say that WTJWorg created an "idol". It's an "idol" that JWInsider doesn't want to worship, unlike you (and many others) who do. Are the letters blurry?

1 minute ago, George88 said:

Are you laughing @Srecko Sostar because of your nonsense, because I just proved JWI, and Pudgy wrong? Or are you just enjoying your day with a particular substance, lol!

Considering their perspective, I will have to explicitly specify the "electronic" library to ensure complete clarity, given that they are scrutinizing my choice of words.

I think it's better to laugh than share downvotes. lol

23 minutes ago, George88 said:

The day you start to think, respond to my post intellectually. I grow weary of irrational thoughts that include the twisting of words, like Pudgy, and JWI. Once again, the emphasis is on child play.

If we adopt this perspective, you inadvertently undermine JWI's argument regarding 587 BC, as there is no mention of it in scripture either. Consequently, his "upvote" is in direct conflict with his own post. An observation that shouldn't be overlooked by witnesses looking at this nonsense.

Unlike you, JWInsider arrives at the date by researching and reviewing the existing WTJWorg chronology.
If he is wrong, then it does not prove anything against him, except that he was wrong.

With WTJWorg, it's a completely different story. They claim that they know better than everyone else because they are allegedly "led by HS". They created a dogma and specific "idol" out of chronology. If you don't believe in the "idol" then you will be excommunicated. lol

21 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

But also recognize (as most already do) that 90% of those who have made a tiny sliver of Persion history their cause would have difficulty naming who was president the year of their birth.

The first Society related to Russell and the Bible Students was Zion's Watch Tower Tract Society.
How many JWs know who the first president was?

Irrelevant to all JWs today. But it's good for them to know they can have a beard if they want.

Maybe they remember that date as important. lol

Only old JWs talk about 1914 as an important year for JWs. These young people today are not interested in it because they "don't care" about it, because it actually goes to Warwick's basement of history.

3 hours ago, George88 said:

It is fascinating to explore the functioning of the mind when confronted with a seemingly irrational notion. The idea of trampling on the heavenly Jerusalem, Srecko, may seem nonsensical indeed. However, it raises intriguing questions about how mere mortals could potentially bring about its destruction. What is particularly captivating is the assumption that you have become a deity, with the power to bring about such an event. Yet, it leaves me pondering what makes you believe that a higher power, like God, wouldn't eventually eliminate all false gods.

When making a claim, it is important to support it with scripture. This principle applies to any claim, not just religious ones. However, there seems to be an issue here where people often make false assumptions without providing any evidence. The burden of proof does not lie with the other person; it is your responsibility to prove your claim. If you disagree with the dates of 1914 and 607, then make a compelling case supported by scripture and historical events to challenge those dates. Otherwise, all you are doing is demonstrating dishonesty and deceit.

Galatians 4:26, Hebrews 3:12, Revelation 3:12. 

There is no biblical statement that anything happened in 607 BCE or 1914 CE. Go to search tool and you will not find any of this dates (numbers) in the Bible. That is my evidence.

Your evidence comes from the calculation of the biblical text. So you have no proof, just an interpretation.

lol

6 hours ago, JW Insider said:

The details show that there has continued to be trampling and subjugation by other nations over Israel and Jerusalem. History tells us that not just a few, but MILLIONS fell by the sword, and Jerusalem continues to be trampled on by the nations. Israel is little more than a client of the US and sometimes Britain. A supposedly "safe," non-democratic national military base, weapons testers and purchasers of US manufacturers, and an appeasement to religiously fanatic Zionists and Christian fundamentalists.

So tell me again how this was fulfilled in 1914:

(Luke 21:24) . . .And they will fall by the edge of the sword and be led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled on by the nations until the appointed times of the nations are fulfilled.

It is quite possible that George, like a good number of JWs, is influenced by the idea that the "New Jerusalem" (or one of several types of "Jerusalem" in WTJWorg theology) is presented in a "new form and new dwelling place".

So "that Jerusalem that is no longer trampled on" is located in HQ Brooklyn, now Warwick or wherever in the state of New York.

lol

It becomes recognizable to me as follows. There are scholars, archaeologists, historians and others involved in looking at historical events and dating them. These are people who independently or within the framework of recognized institutions research the matter and draw conclusions. All such individuals should have, and probably have, diplomas from higher educational institutions, so you can have confidence in their work and expertise.
 
On the other hand, we have "esteemed" researchers whose names we do not know, nor their diplomas, because they work in anonymity as individuals or as unitary teams of a religious community. It is necessary to strongly emphasize the fact that this same religious community, as a non-profit body, strongly appeals before various other "secular bodies", such as courts and other institutions dealing with religious and human freedoms (and the like), appeals for its complete independence when it comes to religious doctrines and interpretations. They refer to their constitutionally guaranteed right that no one, not even the courts, have the right to engage in assessments or judgments as to whether certain theological interpretations are legal or not, right or wrong.

In light of such a context and the claim of "independence in interpreting the biblical text" JWs (read, religious leaders) can, if they want to, say and teach what they like and see fit for their own theological consistency and doctrinal purpose while leading their believers with specifically chosen direction of one's own religious thought.
In other words, this means that any teaching of a religious community, even if it is contrary to official science and and as such recognized by the academic community, cannot be considered  as"wrong", because this right and freedom to "interpretation/s" is guaranteed by constitutional freedoms and charters.

10 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

What about all that fresh air and clean water you consume, resources that could be put to fine use?

Really, Srecko, you don’t think you’re grasping at straws here?

I would use @George88 Georg's words, we humans are only part/causers of the problem. Are we the solution?

1 hour ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Elsewhere, people are anything but optimistic about the future and a fair number are not even sure there will be one.

The prospects are bad. But that doesn't stop people from being fighters for their lives, no matter how it turns out in the end.
Let's say, the horror with plastic has long exceeded the possibilities to solve it. But have people stopped using plastic? How many materials do JWs and their organization use, not just plastic, which is already being shown to be harmful? Don't JWs and "God's Organization" use vehicles that pollute the environment? So, you yourself are active participants in generating the downfall in one way or another. Doctrinal mantras will not free you from the consequences that affect every inhabitant of the Earth. WTJWorg periodically postpones Armageddon and thus the "perfect total solution".

1 hour ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Then there is an Amber Scorah who wrote a book upon going ‘apostate’ which was hailed by the media. The reviews lauded her ‘courage’ for facing the death of her newborn just following her ‘escape’ from a ‘high-control’ religion. ‘The dodo!’ I found myself thinking. Here she leaves a place where the death of a newborn would have unleashed scores of genuine comforters with a resurrection hope that never fails among Witnesses to soften the blow, to enter a community where there is no such comfort, but only the harsh loss itself, and she still counts it a victory!

The human mind seeks solace in various, unusual and even strange places. Hope and faith are subjective scenes supported by ideas from various sources. Even the Communists who fought against the Nazis had faith and hope without religion. They were atheists, weren't they? They are still there today. Both atheists and communists have not died out.

1 hour ago, TrueTomHarley said:

What about the sister in the picture?’ he returned to the text material, commented on the accompanying photo. Here she is being yelled at. Right outside the Kingdom Hall. That’s not pleasant, is it? It probably was traumatic. What will she do? Who will she tell? (the photo inset shows her in prayer) Will she tell everyone in the congregation? [laughter, because the friends are contrasting that with the inset] Will she go to another congregation? Will she leave the truth? He then returned to his own experience. ‘Do you want to leave the congregation?’ The CO had asked him, and pointed to one or two where they needed help. The CO presented it that neither option, stay or go, was wrong, but, ‘If you stay, you will grow.’ He did stay and did grow. He related how, by staying, he got to see how Jehovah handled the issue in time.

We are obliged to solve our problems and challenges ourselves. The only question is whether they taught us this when we were little, that is, whether they gave us a good foundation to continue growing and maturing while facing difficulties. With or without God, read; organized religion. 

1 hour ago, TrueTomHarley said:

So far, the earthly organization has proved adept at tweaking and amending policies to stay a step ahead of ones who use law in order to shut them down, Russia notwithstanding.  Always, such tweaks and amendments are lambasted as hypocrisy by opponents. Sometimes the brothers are somewhat clunky in response, but they do respond with what generally makes things better, leading some to say, ‘Jehovah uses the world to discipline his people!’ something I don’t say, but if it results in better policies and better navigation amidst a sea of circling sharks, why quibble?

Some JWs brothers and their lawyers are not honest when they present their testimony in court. Also, it is duplicitous to use the politically established scope of today's civilization on "freedom of religion", to introduce lawlessness and dishonesty through religious ideology and interpretations.

1 hour ago, TrueTomHarley said:

If money is involved in any way, as it always will be with any large organization, then it is, ‘It’s all about money with them!’ Even if one takes this view, so what? ‘Is there any among you whose bull will fall into a pit who will not drop everything until it is pulled out?’ Jesus says. Preservation of money is an unremarkable concern in secular matters of life. Money has the power to do things, so you want to keep it if you can. It’s only the ‘love of money’ that messes you up, not money itself.

"So what?" ........., "It’s only the ‘love of money’ that messes you up, not money itself."

Do you have a detector that measures someone's "love" of money? Because, I get the impression that you are sure that those who manage money and make decisions about money in the "Corporation" are all "money haters".

lol

JWTV video with Stephen Lett, May 2015

https://www.jw.org/en/library/videos/#en/mediaitems/StudioTalks/pub-jwban_201505_1_VIDEO

5 hours ago, scholar JW said:

JW Insider

No problem as the Exile as to its nature and chronology are clearly defined as a fixed period of 70 years and consisted of two other elements namely a period of servitude to Babylon and a period of desolation of the Land of Judah which are characteristic of a 'exile' which of course would include a deportation of the remaining inhabitants. Such three elements are the Exile and only went into effect at the time of the Fall of Jerusalem. Ezekiel along Daniel and others had already been deported some ten years earlier into Exile in Babylon thus it became their or 'our exile.

scholar JW

Don't mind me not participating in the discussion about dates and events. There is a lot of math, comparing and memorizing, and reading a lot of books. I don't have that capacity, and I don't have enough persistence.

Should we deal with the figure of "70 years" as an important factor? Not really, as far as I can see. Because there were several "exiles" for many nations and individuals, not just some. And they all started and ended at different times.

Another thing that is troubling in general when we want to rely on statements in the Bible is this. God himself declared that his covenant with the Jews and his Law and some other things will last forever (not 70 or 700,000 years, but forever).
What is visible today of that "eternity"? Something still persists/continues, but how and in what way? Some claim that "that eternity" no longer lasts.

I conclude that relying on the "70 years" benchmark is unreliable.

4 hours ago, scholar JW said:

Screcko Sostar

The 'celebrated' WT scholars wish to remain anonymous and that is also the stated policy of the NWT Committee by way of comparison. Their origin remains unknown but they no doubt have been chosen by means of the Holy Spirit and were originally of the Anointed. Their qualifications also is unknown at this time suffice to say they both as a class and as individuals champion the Bible as God's Inspired Word. I hope this helps!!

scholar JW

If I could I would put 2 emoticons. Laughter and sadness. I can see through your comments how much information you have and "expertise" in presenting it.
I could have guessed your answer. I knew the WTJWorg "researchers" wanted to remain anonymous for the reason stated. Maybe one is trying to be more modest than the reality is. Furthermore, such an explanation could have passed some 20 years ago. Today, to say such a thing is so ridiculous and unconvincing, when we see many JWs key figures providing "spiritual guidance" and "interpretations" with head and beard, with first and last name and without any shyness, on JWTV and other digital platforms.
As a class and as individuals, they proved that they are without "leadership from above". They are at the same time subordinated to the main condition that the "company/corporation" should not fail but survive at all costs. Entangled in a series of their own nonsensical interpretations and clarifications, they prove themselves constantly incapable of providing the "truth". Because they changed "the truth" countless times.

Unfortunately, or fortunately for me, I cannot "submit" myself to your "generated" (recognizable) answer, because it looks like the use of an AI platform, which has been repeatedly exposed here, which gives wrong and misleading information.
I appreciate the possibility that you deeply believe in it, but that will not make the premise real and proven.

I remain to enjoy this academic discussion. 

1 hour ago, JW Insider said:

I might be wrong, but I think sunlight is still the best disinfectant. People who are curious enough to go venture online "on their own" are going to hear all these things sooner or later anyway, so why not prepare them. Even when someone mentions Ray Franz' books, we can say:

"Imagine, Ray Franz already knew firsthand about all of that stuff he reports and yet he still did his best to stay within the brotherhood, the organization. Even after he resigned from the Governing Body, and was no longer allowed to be an elder, he STILL tried his best to remain a member in good standing with  his congregation in Alabama."  

Going around saying these things never happened, or that they are all lies doesn't help. In fact, it makes things worse for those who end up believing that and trying to defend the WTS against what turns out to be true. We end up looking uninformed, or haughty, naive, or worse yet, like liars ourselves.

Some in the ex-JW community use the term "JW-borg, all resistance is futile".
The method and purpose of dealing with the "disobedient" in WTJWorg is that anyone who disagrees and opposes and resists should be completely rejected, and denied communication with the "healthy fabric" of the congregation.

You gave an example with Ray Franz. The latest case is with A. Morris. Both were members of GB. Over time, the same fact is shown again and again; The "apostates" spoke the truth and saw things they should have kept quiet about, but they couldn't and didn't want to keep quiet.

These people are "whistleblowers" of some kind. Ruling structures that are bothered by the uncontrolled spreading of facts about "God's Organization" can only partially succeed in keeping such information. The so-called "non-transparency", at all levels and platforms of communication that are used today in "God's organization", has been practiced for a long time. This cannot have good results in the long run, only bad consequences. WTJWorg is "condemned, predestined" to this type of functioning, because this is how it is done in every "controlled group" and "hierarchical institution".

As much as the "broad and free freedom of communication" through today's predominantly digital means has its downsides, there are just as many positive aspects that will help individuals make "informed decisions" regarding their religious affiliation and dependence on certain ideologies of any provenance.

I am glad that a large number of JW people are taking advantage of these opportunities, and I hope that they will not go to other extremes while using their "newfound freedom".

4 hours ago, scholar JW said:

WT scholars in our publications

On all these pages where history and dates are discussed, many people are very clearly mentioned with their first and last names and with the names of books, publications, and sources from which they are quoted.
Please, who are the people, by name and surname, who are WT scholars? Let them stand behind their claims with their full name and surname.