AlanF

13 minutes ago, xero said:

You really are invested in this. What do you plan on doing to wrestle the bulk of the planet away from their delusions? Tell me you have a plan.

I need do no such things. The Watchtower religion is going down the tubes of its own weight. Although I think I've played a small part in this decline.

19 minutes ago, xero said:

I see that you refuse to concede the point amply made that w/o abiogenesis - no evolution of any kind can take place.

I concede no such thing. You merely assume that The Argument from Present Ignorance proves your point.

You failed to understand my point about deistic creator entities. Can't you read?

Remember that various intelligent people once "proved" that man could never fly. They were wrong.

I reserve judgment on abiogenesis and the existence of creators.

9 minutes ago, xero said:

The whole history of science progressed because of looking at the world as being designed.

Wrong.

11 minutes ago, xero said:

In any case I've found that most ardent atheists fall into one or more of the following categories:

1. They had a bad reaction to religion and they're mad.

2. They have desires to do corrupt stuff, religion tells them to knock it off, and they don't want to.

3. They have daddy issues.

"God doesn't exist and I hate him!" 

Mostly wrong. Your ideas obviously don't come from talking with real atheists, but only what your religious prejudices influence you to think.

You don't even realize that your last statement makes no sense: one cannot hate what one does not believe exists. I don't hate Santa Claus.

For those like me, raised as JWs or in some other sort of fanatical religion, realization that their religious leaders are incorrigible liars often lead inexorably to questioning the existence of God, or of any gods. Eventually they realize that there is no actual evidence for any gods. Note that the Argument From Ignorance is not an actual argument.

9 minutes ago, xero said:

It basically says:

1. It took statements out of context

2. Some of the people who were quoted also had some weird ideas

3. Having thus demonstrated this, we don't have to go any further, dear reader.

The essay shows far more than that -- which you'd understand if you actually read it.

It shows that Watchtower writers will lie and generally distort source references to support their supposedly Bible-based traditions. They do this with other subjects as well.

Since Watchtower leaders claim to speak in God's name, but have demonstrably said false things in God's name, they are by definition false prophets and should not be listened to.

12 minutes ago, xero said:

You must like pizza.

Stupid answers don't address the fact that these passages confirm that the Bible is not The Word of God -- unless God thinks the earth is flat and shaped like a pizza.

Try again.

19 minutes ago, Arauna said:

says the person who does not even understand the word!

Such hypocrisy!

18 minutes ago, Arauna said:

Yes - the scientist in the video says there are many claims to this effect but it is false... watch the video.  It is easy to put it on paper and even claim it in publications but in real life one runs into too  many problems.

You missed my point: I actually created life as part of my final exam.

11 minutes ago, xero said:

W/o abiogenesis, there's nothing to work with. 

As I have explained to various people many times: The Theory of Evolution does not include Abiogenesis.

Abiogenesis, if it happened at all, is an entirely separate subject. I, along with most competent scientists, are agnostic on the subject. Darwin himself had the same view. James Tour was arguing against a straw man in his lecture.

Many competent scientists believe in some sort of deity -- not necessarily the God of the Bible -- that created the universe such that it had within its structure the ability to evolve life. Others feel that some sort of deistic god actively created life and then mucked about with life forms in such a way as to make it look like it evolved. No matter -- the fossil record and genetics prove that some sort of evolution has occurred over some 4 billion years. Only Young-Earth Creationists and related idiots dispute this -- not on scientific but religious grounds.

1 hour ago, xero said:

My greatest fear is that most people are too stupid to understand how brilliant I am.

I remember years ago I had a call w/a professor of anthropology. He of course was a proponent of evolution. I played the "I'm stupid game" with him and asked him to do me a favor and mark in the book "Life How Did It get Here - By Evolution, or Creation" where the authors got it wrong. I submitted that I was stumped, but certainly since my knowledge was a subset of his he would be in a good position to point out the errors.

So he took the book, and then oddly, stopped answering the door when I came back.

So I changed the time of day and came back at 8 pm. He made the mistake of answering, and then w/o a word, just got the book and handed it back.

I said "But what am I to do? Won't you help me? You said you would."

Then he muttered something I forget and shut the door.

That guy obviously knew little of science.

The Creation book is one of the most dishonest and ignorant books produced by the Watchtower Society. For a thorough debunking: https://critiquesonthewatchtower.org/old-articles/2006/02/part-1-disagreements-about-evolution.html

Now I challenge you: tell us where that essay has anything wrong, and justify your answers with valid source references. I'll play the prophet: you won't do it.

1 minute ago, xero said:

I must have missed that verse. Mmmmm pizza!

Isaiah 40:22, along with Daniel 4, Matthew 4:8 and other scriptures.

1 hour ago, Arauna said:

lol...... playing the game of knowing it all!

The shoe fits.

I'm no Einstein, but compared to me you're an amoeba.

1 hour ago, Arauna said:

That is exactly WHAT evolutionists DO IS try MAKE YOU INFERIOR AND 'PRETEND' THEY KNOW THE ANSWERS!   The video above was good because this man (who by the way is a scientist and not the label AlanF puts on everyone to dismiss them! ) shows all the errors and the false claims evolutionists make!   This man  builds cells and makes the chemicals parts for it.  He knows how incredibly hard it is and goes into details.  

LOL! Displaying your infantile ignorance yet again. You have NO understanding even of the stuff Tour said. He does NOT "build cells" you moron.

1 hour ago, xero said:

I'm sure you're right, but I lack the intellectual capacity to understand these arguments. I have to content myself with eking out whatever little I understand with what Jehovah has given me. 

You're in big trouble, then. But at least you appear to have some humility.

Tell me, do you believe the Bible's statement that the earth is shaped like a pizza pie?

1 hour ago, Arauna said:

Yes - I bet you have never tried to engineer a cell - just the membrane alone and the formation of the building blocks of the it is a marvel. 

Yes I have. One of my final exam questions at MIT was "Create life. Explain how you did it in your one page essay."

1 hour ago, Arauna said:

I bet you did not watch it! You dare not watch it right through!  Your "religion" will make you feel too uncomfortable.

I watched it, alright. Nothing new. James Tour made the same fundamental mistake that most Creationists do -- lumping Abiogenesis with the Theory of Evolution. While most Creationists are too ignorant and stupid to understand the difference, Tour is too smart not to. Therefore his lecture is based on a deliberate lie. Just as is virtually all criticisms of Evolution by Mommy Watchtower.

2 minutes ago, xero said:

Alan...If you're satisfied you understand the field and that Dr. Tour has it all wrong, then you can rejoice in your superior knowledge. Perhaps you could write a book outlining his many failed arguments. Be sure to dumb it down for the rest of us, though. Include a lot of pictures and use short sentences and short monosyllabic words.

I understand that most of you Creationists are at kindergarten level, but people far more competent than I have repeatedly demolished claims like Tour's.

On 2/1/2021 at 11:16 AM, Arauna said:

Thank you sooo much - I loved it.  I wish people Like alanF would look at it to the end. 

I'm far more familiar with the religious doctrine called 'Intelligent Design' than you are.

On 2/1/2021 at 9:37 AM, xero said:

Just arrived, and saw this thread.

You might find this lecture by James Tour of interest.

 

Just another form of Creationist religious doctrine. So-called "Intelligent Design" was so declared by conservative U.S. Judge John E. Jones III in the 2004 "creation trial" in Dover, Pennsylvania, where the school board had tried to require teaching ID. The Discovery Institute which promotes it refused to defend its doctrines in the trial, knowing perfectly well that they would not stand up under questioning by competent scientists. The then-darling of the ID people, Michael Behe, was shown to be not only incompetent as a biologist, but also a liar, having grossly misrepresented science books and journals. Behe actually admitted that he viewed astrology as a legitimate scientific theory. Behe, of course, accepts Evolution but believes it was God-guided.

Judge Jones made a number of clear statements in his final decision, including (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kitzmiller_v._Dover_Area_School_District):

<<

... we conclude that the religious nature of ID [intelligent design] would be readily apparent to an objective observer, adult or child.

... the writings of leading ID proponents reveal that the designer postulated by their argument is the God of Christianity.

The overwhelming evidence at trial established that ID is a religious view, a mere re-labeling of creationism, and not a scientific theory. 

... we find that the secular purposes claimed by the Board amount to a pretext for the Board's real purpose, which was to promote religion in the public school classroom, in violation of the Establishment Clause.

>>

The so-called Christians who precipitated the trial were also shown up as liars, the Judge saying, among other criticisms:

<<

... the Dover School Board members' testimony, which was marked by selective memories and outright lies under oath ...

The citizens of the Dover area were poorly served by the members of the Board who voted for the ID Policy. It is ironic that several of these individuals, who so staunchly and proudly touted their religious convictions in public, would time and again lie to cover their tracks and disguise the real purpose behind the ID Policy.

The breathtaking inanity of the Board's decision is evident when considered against the factual backdrop which has now been fully revealed through this trial.

>>

Other observations:

<<

After the trial, there were calls for the defendants, accused of not presenting their case honestly, to be put on trial for committing perjury. "Witnesses either testified inconsistently, or lied outright under oath on several occasions," Jones wrote. "The inescapable truth is that both [Alan] Bonsell and [William] Buckingham lied at their January 3, 2005 depositions. ... Bonsell repeatedly failed to testify in a truthful manner. ... Defendants have unceasingly attempted in vain to distance themselves from their own actions and statements, which culminated in repetitious, untruthful testimony." An editorial in the York Daily Record described their behavior as both ironic and sinful, saying that the "unintelligent designers of this fiasco should not walk away unscathed." Judge Jones recommended to the US Attorney's office that the school board members be investigated for perjury.

>>

Just as the Dover School board Christians showed themselves unrepentant liars, so have the JW apologists posting in this thread. Arauna lied about Richard Dawkins but refuses to admit it. She and True Tom Harley claimed that prominent mathematicians have proved that something to do with Evolution is mathematically impossible, but cannot provide links to such 'disproofs' or even supporting arguments. And on and on.

At its root, 'Intelligent Design' is both a Creationist religious doctrine masquerading as real science, combined with the Argument From Ignorance ("I can't understand how this happened, so it didn't"), also known as The Argument From Personal Incredulity. Its proponents are known liars, and most of the major financial backers of its most prominent defender, the Discovery Institute, are extreme Right-Wing Christians whose goal is the establishment of a Christian Theocratic Government in the U.S. and elsewhere.

Jehovah's Witnesses who go along with ID and such are thus supporting "Christendom" and its doctrines, and violating Watchtower precepts against Interfaith -- just as much as are those who go along with the Young-Earth Creationism of  Christian Fundamentalists like Evangelicals and Pentecostals.

3 hours ago, Arauna said:

Here is a graceful way of saying it in an old Gershwin song!  Lol.  I do not take your taunt seriously!

It's immaterial to me that you're an apostate from Mommy Watchtower. But you know it, and everyone else knows it.

I've never seen such gross hypocrisy from any JW before!

1 hour ago, Arauna said:

You categorize me because you cannot believe that such an %$s-brain like me can come to my own conclusions.... how arrogant you are!   Remember the old saying: arrogance comes before the fall!

When you parrot standard Young-Earth Creationist fare -- something that I'm painfully familiar with -- I know what you've been absorbing.

And you still refuse to acknowledge that Dear Mommy Watchtower condemns your parrotings.

Such a transparent hypocrite.

And still unwilling to admit that you were wrong about Dawkins, having been duped by your YEC sources.

Oh, and perhaps you should offer some help to TTH in calculating his anti-evolutionary probabilities. He really needs help, since he obviously has no clue what he's even trying to calculate. Perhaps you should begin with kindergarten arithmetic.

1 hour ago, Arauna said:

Not interested in your peeves.

My comments about Trump are straight facts, said to illustrate my point. Which you're simply too stupid to get.

1 hour ago, Arauna said:

I do not take sides in politics remember?

But your partner in stupidity does. You should straighten him out.

1 hour ago, Arauna said:

You on the other hand, quickly put people in categories ... so you can get rid of them...or call them something not worthy of consideration - dehumanize them. You have bought hook line and sinker into the new post modern philosophy. 

Wrong on all counts -- unless you call pegging a stupid person as stupid as putting them in categories. Something that all people do as a matter of course.

1 minute ago, Arauna said:

 I guess the conspiracy to kill Julius Caesar never existed.... how naive can one be! !.  Call everything that you do not agree with a conspiracy... when right throughout history there were terrible conspiracies!.

Conspiracies exist, alright. Look at what Donald Trumpolini just did.

The fact that some conspiracies exist does not in any way imply that your favorite conspiracy theories are real.

But that's way too hard for your little ass-brain to grasp.

1 minute ago, Arauna said:

I kinda understand now .....  how you came to believe the jibberish, infantile theory called evolution.

Still 'thinking' with your ass. You prefer Young-Earth Creationist nonsense, even though Mommy Watchtower says it's "unscriptural and unscientific". And of course, you're far too stupid to realize that you're an apostate because of it.

So are you going to admit that your Creationist sources lied about Dawkins believing in aliens? Nope. You're too proud.

1 minute ago, Arauna said:

Your brain does not understand - one has to spoon-feed you.

LOL! You're SO clueless.

Just now, Arauna said:

Lol - ha-ha-  - I do not trust any political human or any human organization at present.  Too much corruption and propaganda going on - propaganda dividing people and propaganda leading to Armageddon.

HAHAHAHAHA!!!

You trust all those brainless conspiracy theorists and Young-Earth Creationists. Hypocrite!

Just now, Arauna said:

It functions like the place you said I will pull my ideas from - that is what I meant - lol

But you haven't the brain to say what you meant -- only your ass.