AlanF

10 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Yes. Of course.

Nope. This is the fallacy of applying post-priori knowledge to a probabilistic situation, much like calculating the odds against True Tom Harley existing based on genetics. Such bogus calculations result in a near-zero probability that you exist. Yet here you are in all your glory.

Can you figure out why such calculations are bogus?

54 minutes ago, Arauna said:

I have said no such thing! 

You imply it in almost every post -- especially those where you advocate for Young-Earth Creationism.

54 minutes ago, Arauna said:

I am an ordinary pensioner - to your standards a nincompoop because in your mind all JWs are idiots. ...... 

Nope. I know plenty who are not. You, on the other hand . . .

54 minutes ago, Arauna said:

the only thing I am better at than you is: I think things through step by step.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!

What you really do is hook your nose onto clips given you by Young-Earth Creationists and, to a lesser extent, the JW leadership, follow them wherever they lead you, and then pretend that you're stepping along by yourself.

Here's proof:

54 minutes ago, Arauna said:

Nature had tremendous foresight or predictive skills: almost godlike in scope

. . .

---

Every word of this nonsense was borrowed from Young-Earth Creationists.

And you're too much of a very stupid apostate to accept the fact that your JW leaders have condemned these idiots.

1 hour ago, Arauna said:

He would not have said it if it was not a possibility in his mind.

Allowing for a possibility is in no way the same as advocating for it -- which is what you lied about.

Easy to see if you're not completely stupid -- IF pigs could fly, how high could they go?

True Tom Harley said:

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1 hour ago, Arauna said:
Don't read books of people who says the earth was "seeded " by alliens..

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Alan has already explained this, no doubt with many an insult. This was a trap that Poor Richard was led into, 

Wow! You actually were correct for once! Congratulations!

Now let's see if you can convince your idiot girlfriend.

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a trap that Alan himself would have been smart enough to avoid.

Probably not. Ben Stein and company are smart cookies. Thoroughly dishonest, but smart.

Of course, assholes like Stein can only pull that off once. Most popularizing scientists have been forewarned. And Stein has been so thoroughly discredited that no scientist will ever talk to him again.

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  1 hour ago, Arauna said:
Insults is not a form of logic, evidence or debunking.

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Well, you’re on to something there.

She's right to  a limited extent, but her implication is thoroughly dishonest. I usually first tackle debunkings fairly objectively, and resort to insults when a person shows himself too dishonest or ignorant to accept facts, or in Arauna's case, even to look at them. Arauna is particularly noisome since she combines Young-Earth Creationism with obsolete JWism and then proclaims her righteousness and superior intellect. She actually refuses to accept what Watchtower publications have clearly said. She's an apostate but too stupid to know it.

55 minutes ago, Arauna said:

You have debunked NOTHING!  Insults is not a form of logic, evidence or debunking.

I've debunked EVERTHING. The fact you refuse to read books, links, arguments -- anything but Cretinist nonsense-- proves that you simply refuse to look. You're intellectually dishonest. Of course you are, having been trained by a dishonest cult.

58 minutes ago, Arauna said:

Don't read books of people who says the earth was "seeded " by alliens... I doubt his logic after hearing that with my own ears.

You only read Cretinist material. But not even their books.

59 minutes ago, Arauna said:

The evolutionist term "goldilocks conditions " apply....... lol

That's a Cretinist term.

48 minutes ago, Arauna said:

Wishful thinking m'dear....... the million years it would take to sort that out would see the end of the specie...... 

The fossil record says you're wrong.

53 minutes ago, Arauna said:

Lol.  Do you 7nderstand what you are saying?  That is the problem with evolutionists.... they don't think things through.

If I have a windows code to operate my computer and I suddenly develop a few "variations"  in the code or a few mutations.......... I will have to get the trouble shooter in to find the "variation"  so he can get the computer to run again.

Genetic code is a more complex operating system than a windows system.   

Apparently you're too stupid to understand the video I gave you to watch.

1 hour ago, Arauna said:

More evolution " thumbsuck". 

You're infantile even for a young-earth creationist JW.

8 minutes ago, Ann O'Maly said:

I thought mutations played a role too? Something to do with ALX1? I'm not going to pretend I understand the ins and outs of it, but if Table 2 in this article is anything to go by ...

The overall article concerns general evolution in the Galapagos, not just what happened in the 1970s-1980s situation, where a drought resulted in finches with larger beak sizes, which later reverted to the normal average size when the drought ended. Evolution has gone on for some 6 million years, so of course mutation and the other effects listed in Table 2 apply. But mutation cannot have been a factor in the drought situation, because it happened way too fast, and then reversed. Mutations do not generally reverse.

1 hour ago, Arauna said:

Yea, all different species in graveyards which were formed by water in catastrophic motion........ only adults of the different species........ fully  formed and twisted in unnatural positions.  Adults were running for their lives when they were swept away. 

More Creationist nonsense.

1 hour ago, Arauna said:

Lol: A friend recently asked me this question: If I gave you all the necessary elements to build a piece of bamboo and I added to that unlimited time - would you be able to build it?   I said yes - with eons of time I am sure I could figure it out!  
Then she said: Here is the catch: you may not use your brain – just leave it to chance!   (Without my intelligence I can have eons of time but will not accomplish anything.)
This is an answer to the question about 'entropy' being able to 'build' up complex working machines in perfect sequence out of random chaos.

It cannot hit the jackpot over and over in sequences of billions of times unless it is somehow orchestrated. 

Wrong again. Look:

2 minutes ago, Ann O'Maly said:

There's going to be a small stream coming down Annie's everything if you don't stop, Arauna 🤣🤣🤣 You're killing me!

I've already spit out my coffee a few times.

Arauna is a weird combination of ageing, obsolete JW and young-earth creationist. Even though Mommy Watchtower explicitly downgraded YECism as "unscriptural and unscientific" forty years ago, she's stuck in what she learned as a Watchtower drone sixty years ago. 

4 minutes ago, Arauna said:

I have seen a simulation of the rapid movement of Pangea  during the flood.  

Creationist simulations in no way represent reality. Pigs can fly in simulations.

4 minutes ago, Arauna said:

All the events you guys describe happened by one little mutation by one little miracle mutation over billions of years when earth was perfectly stable .....is not mathematically possible. 

The earth has never been stable.

As for maths, go right ahead and present some here.

4 minutes ago, Arauna said:

It would take one protein to be built this way ...... longer than the universes existence..... 

Not even wrong.

4 minutes ago, Ann O'Maly said:

Tell that to the finches on Daphne Major!

Well, as I understand that situation, mutations played little or no part in it. Rather, natural genetic variations -- not mutations -- were selected by environmental conditions. So the situation nicely showed how natural selection acts upon variations from any source. 

5 minutes ago, Arauna said:

The pressure of the weight of the water pushed out the ridges of mountains we see and trenches in the sea.  Some places went higher and some lower

Wrong. Would you like to see the physical calculations that disprove your claim?

Remember that rock is about 5-8 times heavier than water, and mountains and depressions flooded by water would do the opposite of what you think.

2 minutes ago, Arauna said:

Yes, but it is  RARELY is beneficial. 

True, but you're missing the point: Natural selection and such filter out the bad ones, leaving only what works. Read Richard Dawkins' book Climbing Mount Improbable for starters.

2 minutes ago, Arauna said:

The number of incorrect mutations would have exceeded the benefits.... Just to create one protein would take longer than 500 billions years. 

Nonsense. You're not even remembering your Creationist sources correctly.

2 minutes ago, Arauna said:

I have mentioned before that "goldilocks conditions" would be needed for the right chemicals to stay together and not diffuse back into the  "soup" without a membrane to keep it together.  Perfect conditions for millions upon millions of years when the earth always has unpredictable weather and disasters.  Not possible.... that is a dream...... not even a theory.

How many times do you have to be told? Abiogenesis -- the origin of life -- has nothing to do with the Theory of Evolution and is not known at this time.

You seem incapable of learning.

1 minute ago, Arauna said:

The mountains became higher with the rapid movement of the tectonic plates......

I've debunked this nonsense for  you several times now. Teutonic plates, and Aryan plates, and Gallic plates DO NOT move fast. You have ZERO evidence for this.

1 minute ago, Arauna said:

we find sea life above the mountains.... ..

Wrong. We find fossils of sea life embedded in rock that exists at all altitudes from below sea level to the top of Mount Everest. Plate tectonics explains how they were uplifted, such as I've already given you links for with respect to the Himalayas.

1 minute ago, Arauna said:

it was a catastrophic event.   

"It"? As if there was just one tectonic episode. LOL! Plates have been moving around for 4 billion years.

1 minute ago, Arauna said:

There were volcanoes and the water violently broke free from the bottom if the earth

Where is this "bottom of the earth"?

1 minute ago, Arauna said:

as well as the water band above the expanse breaking ......

Even the Young-Earth Creationist Flood Geologists now admit that's impossible.

1 minute ago, Arauna said:

furthermore ..... weigh a bucket of  water........ feel how heavy it weighs..... that pressure of the water after it came down and the tsunamis it formed  wrecked the old world completely.

Evidence, please.

1 minute ago, Arauna said:

It also explains how fast the layers of sediment formed. .....also  coal and oil.   One needs pressure to form coal  and NO oxygen present.  Water can do that!

You're entirely ignorant of physical reality.

15 minutes ago, Arauna said:

Each minute  hange that " by chance"  turned out to be a unexplainable benefit is a miracle!

More nonsense. Mutations occur by chance. Evolution by natural selection and other mechanisms that select among mutations is not chance. You're talking out of your ass.

7 minutes ago, Arauna said:

Most of the pics are sucked from the imagination of an artist....

Nonsense. Hundreds of millions of fossils have been found over the last 200 years alone. Here's one where a Velociraptor and Protoceratops killed one another:

https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg22530090-800-stunning-fossils-dinosaur-death-match/

7 minutes ago, Arauna said:

True scientists acknowledge there are too many unexplainable gaps.  

More Creationist nonsense. Here is just one list of verified transitional fossils:

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-transitional.html

7 minutes ago, Arauna said:

If millions of changes took place to grow each animal...... where is the evidence?

In the fossil record.

Again, the fact that you refuse to look says a great deal about you.

7 minutes ago, Arauna said:

Most animals arrived fully formed.......

Wrong. Read Prothero's book.

7 minutes ago, Arauna said:

writing books dont make it true.... drawing trees dont make it true..... it just means you  believe the theory of the writer without proper evidence .

The same can be said for Creationist claptrap. Except there is a huge amount of fossil and genetic evidence for Evolution. But the only evidence that Creationists put forth is some form of The Argument From Personal Incredulity -- "I can't believe it's true so it isn't!"

2 minutes ago, Arauna said:

Not one of the miracles in evolution have been proven......

Evolution requires no miracles -- only well established science.

2 minutes ago, Arauna said:

no fossils to prove the interim stages...

Nonsense. Many books proving that all manner of intermediate forms existed have been written. A particularly good one is Evolution: What the Fossils Say and Why It Matters by Donald Prothero.

The fact that you refuse to read science books is beside the point.

2 minutes ago, Arauna said:

why?   Because complex life exploded on the world scene (each specie fully developed) in one layer of the earth...... called the Cambrian explosion. 

I've already disproved your lie half a dozen times in this thread alone.

2 minutes ago, Arauna said:

At least the Talmud writes scathingly of Jesus - so we know he czme to earth. ..... part of a prophecy and part of the plan to redeem mankind.  Many artifacts exist from the period of the israelite kings .I.e. a seal from the "house of David."  Hezekias tunnel, pool of Siloam...... the kings really existed...  Etc.  Israel is a "living history" .... they have been celebrating passover for 3500 years and the saving of Israel during time of queen ester for 2500 years.  I can go on and on. 

Still no proof of miracles. Still no arguments about why Genesis is inspired when it has many physical claims wrong.

9 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

“I have a foreboding of an America in my children’s or grandchildren’s time — when the United States is a service and information economy; when nearly all the key manufacturing industries have slipped away to other countries; when awesome technological powers are in the hands of a very few, and no one representing the public interest can even grasp the issues; when the people have lost the ability to set their own agendas or knowledgeably question those in authority; when, clutching our crystals and nervously consulting our horoscopes, our critical faculties in decline, unable to distinguish between what feels good and whats true, we slide, almost without noticing, back into superstition and darkness. The dumbing down of America is most evident in the slow decay of substantive content in the enormously influential media, the 30-second sound bites (now down to 10 seconds or less), the lowest common denominator programming, credulous presentations on pseudoscience and superstition, but especially a kind of celebration of ignorance.”

Your point?

Remember that much of this decline gathered a great deal of steam when Ronald Reagan got into power.

3 minutes ago, Arauna said:

Jehovah speaks of all the creation days as "a day" ..... so it is clear it is not a 24-hour day but an epoch.

And according to you, an epoch is 7,000 years long.

6 minutes ago, Arauna said:

 Faith according to hebrews 11:1  "Faith is the assured expectation of what is hoped for, the evident demonstration of realities that are not seen."    The evidence of realities  is not just seen in the complexity and synergistic designs in the physical creation , but very well noted in the main theme of the bible which "purpose" has slowly  been taking shape throughout the ages.  To restore mankind back to God. Many steps of this plan has been seen but the final 1000 years is a reality still hoped for.  If all other parts of the plan came true (such as the timely arrival of christ) then the final part of the purpose is assured.

There is no way that people who did not know each other and lived hundreds of years apart could write about " one theme" throughout the bible  without some help.  The main theme is logical, consistent, coherent, and has continuity.  I.e  continuity...... David was born in Bethlehem and Jesus was born in Bethlehem.... in the Davidic line (genealogy), abraham went on mount moriah to sacrifice isaac and a 1000 years later this same spot was purchased and the temple was built by solomon. 

The main theme is about human rulership.... that it is always oppressive and imperfect.... Adam chose independence from the sovreignty of God by using his gift of free will in a selfish way.  Human rulership is therefore predicted  to be a miserable failure because most people make up their own morality "good and bad" as they go along.  Humankind broke their relationship with God. 

God immediately made arrangements to restore his purpose but only after he has given humans a chance to rule themselves..... which will end badly. God will have to step into humankind's affairs to save them from themselves.  He will prove beyond reasonable doubt  that humans cannot rule themselves.

Jehovah will eventually only use  those persons who willingly choose to be under His direct rulership and willing to obey his self-sacrificing moral standards..as taught by Jesus, the christ.   Successful rulership can only be just and righteous when all humans are equal under god and God ( who can read hearts ) will administer perfect and equal justice.  Humans are always imperfect and are bias...... even if they bring in one set of moral laws - they will still fail because "human rules over another to his detriment"..... for example: USA are supposed to have equality because it has laws in place..... but if it is not equally enforced ....... then there is no equality. UN will being in one set of morals and it will fail ! 

Miracles are also interesting.  Can one accept a miracle as a reality when it advances a specific plan and was predicted ahead of time?   

The trillions of miracles in evolution has no plan, happen by random chance and does not have a stipulated purpose or a final outcome predicted...... just random events.  Even the " intelligent information " sprang into complex patterns " and has no explanation except that it is chance. 

The bible on the other hand has steps which lead to a final outcome which has been predicted.  Each step was predicted and fulfilled exactly on time  and also exactly as predicted.

Biblical Faith is not blind........ evolutionary faith is blind because there is no proper fossil record and there is no outcome or purpose. 

Biblical faith has historic "evidence" that many of steps in the plan has already happened ...... so we have an assured expectation that the final outcome will also be as predicted. 

 

Yes, the moon is indeed made of cheddar cheese.

The fact is that not a single supposed miracle can be proved to have happened. Not a single predicted event has taken place in the manner clearly predicted. The order of creative events stated in Genesis is demonstrably wrong. Etc. etc. etc.

What is "assured expectation"? Assured by who and what? Words written in a set of books that so clearly contradict reality on so many levels?

For JWs, the total failure of everything predicted and claimed for "the generation of 1914" ought to be a wakeup call. But as Carl Sagan said, religions are tough. After such complete failures they do a reset and reinvent or reinterpret dogmas. But eventually the piper gets paid, as has happened with Harold Camping and so many others.

16 minutes ago, 4Jah2me said:

And this is why we need the True Anointed Remnant.  Because without them we cannot know the true meaning of scripture.

But i am past trying to converse with athiests. There is enough probem proving the GB/Watchtower/JW org wrong on many things. 

I have no idea where athiests stop calling people liars.  Why ? Because if you don't believe in the Hebrew writings, then you can't believe in the Greek writings. Because the Greek writings quote from and make reference to the Hebrew writings. And if you don't believe the Greek, then maybe you don't believe Josephus or Pliny or other historians.  So you see, i don't bother with athiests.  And as for believing 'scientists', they are only men and women. They get paid for results. And he who pays the piper calls the tune. 

By faith one can believe that the moon is made of cheddar cheese. One can believe that the earth is shaped like a pizza pie.

On the other hand, if supposedly God-inspired writings contradict demonstrable reality,  it should be evident that those writings are mere manmade speculations.