FelixCA

Wrong again. There is no such thing as having a vote from the Holy Spirit. Once again, try not to obscure, administrative with the gift of the Holy Spirit. To give people spiritual nourishment, the responsible body has to be in full accord when receiving the same gift from God. Don't quote me Raymond's books anymore, that's insulting too.

Thank you for proving my point on how you view the GB. JWinsider used you as a "fine" example. He was wrong to do so since it was a horrible example coming from a meaningless person.

Try separating the 2. 1 by what opposers believe, and 1 by the innuendoes Raymond implied. Why would he found it a need to stipulate how witnesses would feel if 1975 wasn't going to be realized as indicated by the Watchtower publications. Your defense of Raymond is illogical. Perhaps to a weak heart, you will have success.
Is this why you told TrueTom you couldn’t find anything about Cynthia when there is plenty of ex-witnesses to applaud her for sticking by her man? A man that failed as an intellectual and spiritual person. Sorry. I don’t hold him, his research, or books in high regards as you do.

That means we have a difference of opinion with Raymond criticizing the year 1975, as though people thought it would become the end of the world just like any weak-minded witness.

Word salads are insulting. When I prove you wrong, it is not conjecture. This is why defending Raymond is wrong. And if you bother to read the remarks in the WordPress, His actions had a serious impact on others in a negative Christian way.

Who was this man to decide? This is a question he will have to answer for leading God’s children astray. A question that some here will have to answer for.

Hermano, deja que el incrédulo tenga su día. No vale la pena el tiempo que se imprime. La mentalidad apóstata es lo que el diablo apoya.

You are totally weird Felix. i have not proved your point on anything. 
And your comments are not worth looking into. So I'll go back to listening to music on Youtube.
Anyone that tries having a meaningful conversation with you is wasting their time.
GB = 8 men who dream they are important. Just as you dream the same Felix.  

Try separating the 2. 1 by what opposers believe, and 1 by the innuendoes Raymond implied. Why would he found it a need to stipulate how witnesses would feel if 1975 wasn't going to be realized as indicated by the Watchtower publications. Your defense of Raymond is illogical. Perhaps to a weak heart, you will have success.
Is this why you told TrueTom you couldn’t find anything about Cynthia when there is plenty of ex-witnesses to applaud her for sticking by her man? A man that failed as an intellectual and spiritual person. Sorry. I don’t hold him, his research, or books in high regards as you do.

That means we have a difference of opinion with Raymond criticizing the year 1975, as though people thought it would become the end of the world just like any weak-minded witness.

Word salads are insulting. When I prove you wrong, it is not conjecture. This is why defending Raymond is wrong. And if you bother to read the remarks in the WordPress, His actions had a serious impact on others in a negative Christian way.

Who was this man to decide? This is a question he will have to answer for leading God’s children astray. A question that some here will have to answer for.

*Tank broken*
The world's tank, broken,
It slips slowly, life!
Thousands of thoughts, split it,
By "True Life"!
She goes on thinking.
Erroneously, like death,
It goes to immortality,
The living soul, having its side!
But Jehovah says clearly:
"After death, he is not a soul,
No movement, no calvary,
No thought or smile!
It's nothing, but Jehovah can,
To build it, out of the dust,
His servant, who is in death,
Keep it, by the hand!
Many tanks are broken,
And I do not keep life in them,
Jehovah is far,
Thinking of the world, the rebels!
She repudiously rejects the Word,
JEHOVAH, eternally alive,
And eternal will be the earth
For the rebel, coffin!
( unknown author )

@FelixCA Quote  " I get the impression Butler believes the GB to be equal to Christ, not above him as you state. "
Felix you are a complete nutcase. A self loving nutcase at that. You follow the GB's example by putting yourself on high
Remember the scripture in Luke 14 v 11 Well you certainly exalt yourself... So it follows 
 For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.”
You also follow the example of Space Merchant on here,. You start off talking to one person then you drag as many peoples names  into your rant as you can find. 
You know that your comments are complete rubbish so you hide behind a 'cat'. You may be man or woman, who knows. But then who cares. You say nothing worth taking note of. 

a algunas personas les gusta impresionar a los demás pretendiendo buscar cosas, cuando ni siquiera conocen a las personas que están buscando. https://www.commentarypress.com/
 

I see you are going to use my words against me. I find that insulting.
 
1975: ‘THE APPROPRIATE TIME
FOR GOD TO ACT’
DURING the second half of Rutherford’s presidency most of the older time prophecies so strenuously argued for in the first half
were gradually dropped or relocated. The start of the “last days” was moved up from 1799 to 1914.
The 1874 presence of Christ was also moved up to 1914 (as had already been done in 1922 with the 1878 official start of Christ’s active Kingdom rule)...Governing Body member Bill Jackson smilingly said to me, “We used to say, you just take the date from this shoulder and put it on the other shoulder.”

at most,” “the final few years,” all used in the Watchtower and Awake! magazines with reference to the beginning of the millennial reign and all in a context that included the date 1975. Do such words
mean anything? Or were they used loosely, carelessly? Are people’s hopes and plans and feelings something to be toyed with? To fail to be concerned about those factors would be both irresponsible and insensitive. Yet theWatchtower of August 15, 1968, even implied that one should be careful about putting too much weight on Jesus Christ’s own cautionary words.
Your characterization of me is 100% speculation. This is why we all have different opinions.

Then you fail to see the difference of what the Holy Spirit means with gifts, just like Raymond. So your own assessment in wanting to equate my perspective with Raymond is an over emphases in your part, since, I have no reason to subvert the truth.

This is the reason why you can’t find any gifts since your thoughts have been corrupted by ideologies such a Raymond’s and perhaps others that make you believe the Watchtower is always flawed just like Butler, and Anna.

Therefore, the blame of misunderstanding scripture lies squarely on your shoulders. You have a way of placing false statements along with sound statements that make both ideals simply a conjecture in your part.

As for voting since you are changing the subject about the failed ideas of Raymond in his book, the 2/3 majority vote just like it is done now with the majority rule, is NOT applicable to the conscience but to a sign from the Holy Spirit. Men are capable of making mistakes, that’s a given since we are all imperfect. Waiting on a heavenly sign is something else for them to adopt a new understanding if need be.

Here many confused individuals believe the GB make things up as they go along.
The misquote of William Cooper in 1773 of Isaiah 55:8-9, that’s how God Moves in a Mysterious Way. Perhaps someone else will have another text in mind, John 13:7 this is a pun, not a misdirection.

Now perhaps you would like to expand on what you mean by 1996 and the dishonest claim you have about the 16 years in prison? I don’t need to ask an Ex-JW with tainted information from apostate sites, I’m asking you that considers himself a witness with Ex-JW views.

Perhaps this is the reason why you defend Srecko and Bulter. But, if anything, I get the impression Butler believes the GB to be equal to Christ, not above him as you state.

This is why your attempts of correction will run unchallenged, for one we are talking about Raymond’s motive. Initially, he thought 607BC was sound but later accepted 587BC because of the treatise. Could it be, this was a decision to informally mention Carl in his book?

The end results didn’t justify the means, and it doesn’t need to be in the book to know the man. Therefore, my comparison doesn’t squarely rely on his books but the man.

Since you are using the strawman argument and believe you know the man versus his books, which one on Matthew’s could be compared to him with his actions, not motives, but actions.

Before there’s an ideological misunderstanding, I view the stewardship of 1914 as the faithful and wise servant and 1931 as the faithful and discreet slave. They both have the same context, but I like to keep them separate. That’s my opinion and rendering from a theological perspective. I’m not adding or removing anything from scripture. It is meant to keep past and present understanding of scripture interpretation honest by groups that held the Watchtower as their publishing base headquarters.

Are we talking about the same Raymond Franz?
Where in the Watchtower literature does it state,

1.      607BC is not a relevant date, but instead, it’s 587BC. Where in the Watchtower literature does it state,

2.      Russell prophesied about the end of the world in 1914AD.

3.       Where in the Watchtower literature does it state unequivocally the world would end in 1975? The same propositions that Ex-JW’s and opposers alike hold against the organization. What good did it do Raymond to acknowledge those misguided ideals because a treatise was presented to the Watchtower and the Watchtower literature was misrepresented?

4.       Where does it state in scripture that rebuke (reproved) Luke 17:3, and staying away (Disfellowship) from an unrepentant person is not Biblical? 1 Corinthians 5

Yet Raymond deemed it a misuse. Why, because his good friend was disfellowshipped. He placed his personal feeling above God’s commandment to show repentance. Acts 3:19

5.       Centralized authority. Raymond found it a need to criticize the Governing Body,  board ship. Does he not relate that such a group would amount to the same body Jesus was dealing with? Where in scripture does it state to defy all authorities based solely on Christ teachings? Another example of a false narrative. He was disappointed to have been passed on as an authority figure himself. If it was up to him, he would have reinstated the Watchtower presidency. One authority figure. That says more about personal gain than Bible understanding. What he failed to acknowledge was, when there were presidents running the Watchtower, that president had assigned board committees.

I could go on and on, it doesn’t interest me to argue a failed man’s idea of criticizing in effect scripture to promote his personal agenda.

Interesting, is this the kind of methodology Raymond found himself in support of? How can “faith” be expressed when the Holy Spirit is generally misunderstood. For that, we would need to understand what “gifts” of the Holy Spirit are. Does everyone receive the same gifts? Acts 2:17

Do these gifts unravel to be interpreted by man’s own thoughts? Or are they an expression of guidance by Gods Holy Spirit, that man must follow. If these gifts were all equal? These types of arguments would be none existent.

In Daniel God gave every knowledge to certain young men. Did he give that gift to a synagogue? The High Priest, the prevailing Jewish governing body?

The apostles received certain gifts that weren’t given to faithful Christians. There is no need for a true Christian to supersede any ideology that goes beyond not understanding how the Holy Spirit works within the body of Christ. Matthew 1:20-23

I’m afraid Raymond didn’t understand this, once he fell from the grace of God. Can anyone truly say, who has an angel looking over them? 2 Timothy 2:2, 2 Timothy 1:5, 2 Timothy 3:15  

True Christian follow and have faith on? To the meek, it’s always been Jehovah with the GB being exemplary men (teachers) to give us spiritual food at the proper time. That’s the ideology since 1931. Revelation 2:7

 No one that I know of reveres the GB, in a negative way as in bow down to them but show genuine respect of brotherly love for them being responsible and accountable to God if they personally lead God’s children astray. Another area where Raymond failed. Matthew 18:6

1 Corinthians 12 New International Reader's Version (NIRV)

Gifts of the Holy Spirit


 
12 Brothers and sisters, I want you to know about the gifts of the Holy Spirit. 2 You know that at one time you were unbelievers. You were somehow drawn away to worship statues of gods that couldn’t even speak. 3 So I want you to know that no one who is speaking with the help of God’s Spirit says, “May Jesus be cursed.” And without the help of the Holy Spirit no one can say, “Jesus is Lord.”

 
4 There are different kinds of gifts. But they are all given to believers by the same Spirit. 5 There are different ways to serve. But they all come from the same Lord. 6 There are different ways the Spirit works. But the same God is working in all these ways and in all people.

 
7 The Holy Spirit is given to each of us in a special way. That is for the good of all. 8 To some people the Spirit gives a message of wisdom. To others the same Spirit gives a message of knowledge. 9 To others the same Spirit gives faith. To others that one Spirit gives gifts of healing. 10 To others he gives the power to do miracles. To others he gives the ability to prophesy. To others he gives the ability to tell the spirits apart. To others he gives the ability to speak in different kinds of languages they had not known before. And to still others he gives the ability to explain what was said in those languages. 11 All the gifts are produced by one and the same Spirit. He gives gifts to each person, just as he decides.

While we don’t know anyone’s heart aside from God himself, Raymond’s actions spoke volumes. It did have a negative impact on Bethel. Only those that revered Raymond thought it was an injustice. Those that learned in a positive way strengthened their faith to understand God was not willing to allow a self-severing person to push the Watchtower backward rather than advance spiritually. What would be his motive now?

I believe JWinsider mentioned there were some at Bethel that saw him as the next “President” of the Watchtower. The unanimous decision to have a governing body was not to overburden only a single individual and it was paramount to develop a body rather than a board. However, Raymond liked the idea of the originator of the Bible Students, Russell. But, if you understand Russell’s ACTIONS, he preferred not to be looked like a leader, rather than a follower of Christ alongside everyone else.

Therefore, Raymond’s Actions were to regress the Watchtower and it had a negative impact. The only good takeaway that can be seen now for true Christians, learn from Raymond’s mistakes. A person that had a positive high responsibility and through it all away for loyalty to a man, and personal desires. All of which goes against, Bible principle.




Understandable. It does get confusing when we try to put our thoughts into print. It gets misunderstood more often than any of us want to admit. Even professional authors are scrutinized for their works. Can the GB claim something factual, YES!, they rely on scripture to make it a fact from a man's point of view. Did Raymond subvert and distort Bible facts to promote his own agenda, YES! therefore, the motive of Raymond would go against God's Holy Spirit, and that's a fact.

I’m sorry to read about this personal experience. A dangerous one indeed. That just shows not all witnesses live a sheltered life like outsiders think they do. Confused witnesses are free to leave the organization whenever they want, and not be stocked like they do with Scientology. Just like it is anyone’s free will, NOT to associate with anybody that doesn’t share the SAME values of being Christ true followers with Christian ethics and faith. Example, If my brother became a drug addict, why would I want to associate with him? I would want him to repent and clean himself up. Raymond thought shunning a derogatory remark was unloving. How could he account for millions of outsiders that do the same?

Raymond Franz lost the mission as a disciple in favor of friendship and wanting personal power. A few examples on how perception, of some, can become clouded by following the same pattern of insincere ideals. They call it, “in search for the truth by understanding facts.” The problem there, the more facts are gathered the more confused the original research becomes. I wonder, what will Raymond say when he is judged by Christ. Not about himself, but when asked, did your book prevent anyone from knowing the gospel of Christ? Or interfered enough to prevent a soul from knowing the one true God according to my instructions left in the inspired books that became known as the Holy Bible. 2 Peter 2:20-22

Unfortunately, this is what happens when people confuse the administrative roles of the GB with doctoral understanding.

Stay safe my brother. Always remember with situations such as these, which I know only too well, Matthew 10:28.

The argument offered would lead us to what? In ancient times, I can offer many examples where the faithful people of God failed. What is the point, if we don’t allow God to make the necessary corrections rather than rely upon our own heart to make them?
It seems there is an understanding of not willing to allow God, lead his people to the promise land and wish to intervene whenever convenient. Exodus 14:11, Deuteronomy 8:2
Door to Door
“If the question were put to the headquarters organization of the Watch Tower Society whether each member (if physically able) must do house-to-house witnessing to be a true Witness, in fact to be a true Christian, the answer would probably be that this is not an absolute requirement. (Actually, it would be extremely difficult to get a clear, straightforward answer on such a question; the headquarters organization is remarkably reticent about expressing itself in writing on sensitive issues and, even when given, answers are often couched in ambiguous terms, or evasive and roundabout reasoning.) We have already seen, however, that responsible men in the organization acknowledge that there is serious reason to question whether in reality the Witness community as a whole engages in this activity simply out of a heartfelt desire to do it, as something freely motivated, done without any sense of compulsion.”
To read an error of attempting to argue against the door to door witnessing when scripture clearly states how Jesus would send the apostles are one of a thousand (exaggeration) ways; maybe not Raymond misinterpreted scripture to win the minds and hearts of troubled people. Therefore, his research was NOT incumbent on Bible truth. James 5:16-20

If we use that standard, it would be, we couldn’t trust our own heart. It would amount to the same thing if we use men literally rather than men lead by the Holy Spirit. Matthew 15:19

The figure of speech would suggest people weren’t trusting the apostles as ordinary men but rather as messengers of God. How else can we see the power of the Holy Spirit? Raymond fell for the deception.

The Vatican fought holy wars. Their preachers still go into combat as a show of faith that God is on their side. Can we trust people that should understand not to shed blood? 1 Chronicles 28:3, Hebrews 12:4

These people profess to have the Holy Spirit guided by God. What say you about ACTIONS?

I will disagree with this assessment. misinterpreting articles and Watchtower lead information does not the truth make

What is the Ex-JW and opposers perception about 607BC, 537BC 1874, 1878, 1914, 1917, 1919, 1925, 1969, 1975 etc.? This is a common theme for ex-JW's books. Nothing original.
If people never understood the significance of these dates, yet are willing to break ranks because of a misguided understanding, what would be the message for loyal witnesses, and what would it be called aside from meaningless.
What does the power of Satan have to do about seeking truth? It becomes a personal opinion about something they believed was understood like Raymond, and then the facts weren’t. Don’t you think Raymond put too much faith on research gathered, rather trust in God the vast research done by the organization reached a different conclusion? How can anyone prove it one way or another? Yet, Raymond and people like Raymond came to an absolute decision, they are correct. By who's standards are they correct?
So, excuse me, I rather trust in God and Bible understanding rather than men trying very hard to prove the organization wrong.
When the same distorted information is circulated, what is the benefit? When the same topics are offered in a closed setting just because some don’t appreciate a response that refutes such claims, what is the difference with what the GB is being accused of?
At some point, this rhetoric needs to make sense? Not just become a selling point for the other side.

Again, you must be talking about a different Raymond Franz as you put it. Raymond Franz found a need to criticize the Governing Body, that's true. Perhaps he should not have. But the reason this makes people angry is not because it isn't true, but because it erases a fantasy many Witnesses have about them. Also, he decided to do this only after being slandered and spoken of abusively. Are you saying he should not have followed the counsel of 1 Pet 3:15?
(1 Peter 3:14, 15) 14 But even if you should suffer for the sake of righteousness, you are happy. However, do not fear what they fear, nor be disturbed. 15 But sanctify the Christ as Lord in your hearts, always ready to make a defense before everyone who demands of you a reason for the hope you have, but doing so with a mild temper and deep respect. Also you should remember that at the time there was no teaching that this group of men, the GB, amounted to the same body Jesus was dealing with. They only claimed to represent the rest of the remnant of the 144,000 which was, according to the teaching at the time, the same body Jesus was dealing with.
And naturally, R.Franz never defied all authorities based solely on Christ's teaching. You might mean here that he thought one should defy authority when it conflicted with Christ's teaching, but we already know what he should have done in those cases. He spent most of his life acquiescing to the same authority the rest of us have recognized. When that became impossible to continue doing, according to his conscience, he wrote a book to explain why. I think the book was written in the spirit of 1 Peter 3:15.
No he didn't. It was exactly the opposite. This is a point that no one could miss if they read either of his books. I'm not sure how you could possibly have missed it accidentally.
It was Frederick Franz who wanted it reinstated without any interference from a Governing Body. In fact, you can still listen to Fred Franz talk from 1975 where F.Franz sarcastically rails against the idea of a Governing Body, and goes to great lengths to prove that a Governing Body is not even scriptural. In that talk he repeatedly emphasizes that it was only one authority figure who made the decisions of the Watch Tower Society.
You are speaking against Fred Franz, not Raymond Franz.

Can we also say you don’t have proof Fred Franz didn’t? Try not to overreach and backtrack on your earlier sentiment about knowing the GB when it’s obvious that’s an exaggeration.

I’m not mentally challenged spiritually to accept apostate literature that you seem to want to promote. Sorry.

“A final reason, resulting from the previous two, is that of conscience. What do you do when you see mounting evidence that people are being hurt, deeply hurt, with no real justification? What obligation does any of us have—before God and toward fellow humans—when he sees that information is withheld from people to whom it could be of the most serious consequence? These were questions with which I struggled. What follows expands on these reasons.”

How convenient to all of a sudden develop a conscience to justify his own actions as a member of the 18 Governing Body. Not only is this untrue but disingenuous as to his motive.

Perhaps you fall for sob stories, but it takes time to know a person. This person angered over being overlooked for president is a classic case of narcissism.

If you’re a person that is looking for excuses to fade or leave, promote this book if you must, just keep the Watchtower and faithful followers of Christ out. Perhaps JW only would be more suitable to discuss this among yourselves since no one will be able to refute misguided understanding.

There might have been one group that was missed. The presumption of an active member that acquiesce to the tune of false and misleading information. It’s always the quiet ones that are overlooked, even though they are the most dangerous when it comes to wisdom. James 1:26

I have looked for this Allen Smith that is being mentioned here. Once by Witness and once by JWinsider. Is this a punchline or an inside joke?

I guess when we go into Walmart, The manager gives us an account on their daily operation, and they mention what the corporate members are saying. This is indeed a new light, can we say it is with wisdom?

It is true that some Bethel members defy scripture with gossip, does this bring new light or just another way of saying it’s a personal opinion on how I see things. Exodus 23:1,  2 Corinthians 12:20

I think the irony here would be that some say it is important to understand Raymond’s thoughts about the goings-on inside Bethel, yet some here find it necessary to develop a JW only section to keep personal thoughts secret. This is indeed amazing how people think without discernment enough to say, what would be the difference? Ephesians 4:29

Oh! I think we can give Raymond credit for mentioning Carl in his book as though new light was thrust upon his eyes. Evil has the tendency to blind people to the truth. So, it’s not just a matter of mimicking what others had said before about 1914, 1925, 1975 etc. it’s laughable on how one belief was strong but when explained in such a disingenuous way, it became wrong.

That kind of nonsense belongs in an Ex-JW pile. But it’s true those books are for people with a weak heart and wish to follow in Raymond’s footsteps to become as confused as he ended up being.

what would be the difference from any other ExJW that writes a book with the same old storylines? I don't see how his book is more special than any other.