César Chávez

Since the time that the supposed Hunchback of Notre Dame swung from the bells in the bell tower, CLERGY has been afforded special dispensations by the civil authorities.
Even the civil authorities are in many governments referred to as "ministers".
In Richmond Virginia, circa 1965 Pioneers, those who spent 100 hours a month in the ministry .... and BEFORE the idea was promoted that we were "ordained" ministers .... and LONG before the GB started promoting the idea that those involved in lawsuits were "Clergy", these Brothers WERE granted exemption to military service with a "4-D" classification as "Ministers of Religion"
I WAS THERE AND SAW IT.
I was threatened with five years in the Federal Penitentiary, and when I told them I was ready to go ... I got the "I-O" classification, and exemption as a conscientious objector.
 

It seems that you are trying VERY hard to divert the conversation from the real issue.
Your question has NOTHING to do with facts.
My opinion on what you asked about is completely immaterial.
How about this ..... I get an opinion from you about what I posted first?
 

I will take that as a refusal to acknowledge reality as it REALLY exists.

And do you have proof of that Tom ?  i doubt it very much. 

Um, I remember saying that this forum was full of elders.
And now i also know why Mr Harley is so bitter toward the truth about JW Org. 

@Isabella Thank you for this information which has been discussed on this forum previously but it's nice to have a refresh. 
There are many things that I don't quite understand about the GB / their lawyers and JW ORG. 
(An interesting side note here is this :- Mr Tom Harley, the very sarcastic story teller, tells me that I know nothing. However I do wonder if his attitude was the same toward people when he was an Elder. )
To continue :
This American GB / JW Org Database was, so we believe, started in 1997. = 23 years ago.
However the Australian Royal Commission, that found 1006 CSA accusations in JW Org Australia, went back 50 years. 
Now JW Org is an American based religion. It started in the USA. So, if Australia Bethel has Paedophilia reports going back over 50 years. WHY does American Bethel only have a database going back just 23 years ?
Next point : I do not have knowledge of how the ARC obtained the 50 plus years of information. Did the Aus Bethel offer the information or did the ARC demand the information ? Either way and even if, court proceeding occurred, the information was obtained by the ARC and was used to make a full investigation.
Now here in the UK, I understand that when the Charity Commission asked for similar information from the UK Bethel, that the UK HQ refused to hand it over. I understand that a court case occurred and that the UK Bethel lost the case and had to hand over the information. That is how I understand it, and I've never dug deep into it. 
But in both case, Australia and UK , the records of Child Sexual Abuse were handed over to those people in authority that were investigating the JW Org. 
The scripture relating to being in submission to the Superior Authorities would fit well here.
It should also be noted, or so my information has it, that the Charity Commission has not closed it's investigation but it is ongoing. Add to this that the IICSA investigation is also in progress here in the UK.
So where does that leave the GB and it's Lawyers in America ?  
We could ask many questions about God's role in all this, and the role of Christ Jesus. 
In my opinion, God and Christ have washed their hands of it all. How can that which is Holy be involved with that which is not holy. We now know that the GB and their Lawyers are not inspired of God. We also know that the GB has given permission or instruction for the Elders to deliberately tell lies. They are calling it 'spiritual warfare'. Is that really God's viewpoint ? 
It seems though that there is now a big divide in the different Bethels / JW HQs around the earth. Each country is no longer living 'as one organisation earthwide' all serving God. But each Bethel is 'doing it's own thing' when it come protecting itself against the courts and media coverage concerning Child Sexual Abuse within the CCJW. It seems as if the GB are losing control. 
The news about the UK congregations money and their properties being taken over by an outside source seems to fit in well here.
 

Dear Elder @TrueTomHarley it appears that  @James Thomas Rook Jr.  has just proven YOU to be LIAR.
So now YOU are showing YOURSELF to be the MORON. 
This quaint idea of 'memory loss of convenience' for you, does not convince anyone that you speak truth. 
What is obvious though Tom, is that my speaking truth upsets you greatly. The proof of that is your continuing insults of me. You call me a moron, you reply to Anna, that I know knowing at all. It is a continual bombardment of insults from you, an (ex) Elder. 
I think it was James that said 'De nial isn't just a river in Egypt' How right he was. 
Tom, you push this idea as a pretence, quote  " All as reported by those who would be happy if JWs were to vanish off the planet. " 
You try to use this idea as a way to discredit people and reports, that tell the truth about the GB and the JW Org.  In fact Tom, some of those you try to discredit are your Brothers. 
 

Quote @James Thomas Rook Jr. " I think your judgement is premature or possibly wrong for any number of legitimate reasons."
Well then I think it matches his judgement of me  But I can also understand you defending a brother, even if he is wrong . And elders have been told they can tell lies as it's spiritual warfare
Yes 3 smiley faces as I do think it's all so funny.  
James, you seem to have shown proof by providing photos of the letter where it actually says it. Unless that letter is fake ? 
But being as JWs can tell lies and seem to have a clear conscience about it, then there is no level playing field and no knowing truth from lies on here or anywhere else that JWs tend to comment. 
 

In cases when CSA is in question, and we are here under this topic, clear mind and responsible people will cooperate with secular authorities in contributing to prevent, to stop or to punish this sort of crime. We are not  speaking about  normal "daily paper trail". It is about crime trail !! 
Who is that "anyone"? Members are that "no one (nobody)". Their status not giving them any chance to see "daily paper trails" of WT. And in general JW people are not interested for that. Also, "normal daily business" is not something that people in general have to know about.
They (members) are allowed to give (donate) money but are not entitled to know when and why and how much money is used to pay when WT lawyers fight against CSA victims ??!! Public interest for JW members would be to know this sort of "daily paper trails" about how WT operate in this issues. In this WT failed and they are hiding this as many other does. 

Secular government is in position to give report to their citizens, about what they doing, who voted for this or that government. If people are not satisfied after get to know what politicians/leaders doing, many governments will be replaced with new "governing body", by voters.
WT Society Leaders are not placed in their position by members, and members can't change policy and direction of Corporation. But even ordinary members today can be in position to collect information about organization he/she belong to. And because members can't change "governing body" rulers, by voting, he/she can vote for him/her self and leave organization because of many sorts of corruption inside WT Society.  

Quote @César Chávez " Does that mean, the government has FREE, reign in collecting information? NO! Many states are overstepping their authority to appease the masses, according to their own established laws. Those are the arguments being presented all around the world to the courts." 
But just read Jesus' words that God's servants SHOULD LIVE BY.
Matthew 5 v 38 through 42.
“You heard that it was said: ‘Eye for eye and tooth for tooth.’a 39  However, I say to you: Do not resist the one who is wicked, but whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other also to him.b 40  And if a person wants to take you to court and get possession of your inner garment, let him also have your outer garment;c 41  and if someone in authority compels you into service for a mile, go with him two miles. 42  Give to the one asking you, and do not turn away from one who wants to borrow from you.
Do you see the huge difference in JWs attitude as different to Jesus' words ? 
So why oh why JWs, do you pretend to live by Bible 'rules' and principles ? 
 

Just a point of interest.  Islam countries have made inroads into UN. Woman's rights and human rights council are now run by Islamic countries who vote each other in..... things have changed.
The jew-hate in the UN and EU countries is a direct result of Islamic influence. Quran and Hadith stipulates that all Jews will be killed.  Hence the incomprehensible radical left and Islam's love affair - pushed by UN.

Who is this arrogant horn who speaks great things?  The British empire which later became the dual Anglo-American empire. This the the horn who persecuted the people of God. It will go down as a world empire and the "rest of the beasts" will be "prolonged for a season" in the United Nations."  
You said some witnesses felt this way: the truth is that many witnesses hate history - have never opened a history book in their lives apart from the bit of  history about their own country they were forced to learn in school and barely passed. Now imagine this in a Daniel or Revelation book..... they do not dig in...... they just sigh and complain.... and say they do not understand.
This is why I partly believe that that the GB are now careful  to not get too complicated. They spoon feed prophecy - only that which is absolutely necessary to understand or being fulfilled in the presenf time - and can clearly be seen. 
It is better for new ones (and old) to learn to cope in a wicked world because there is a violent asault on morality all the time from every aspect of society. It is important to build every ones moral endurance  before Armageddon and their capacity to make good descisions.  GB teach life skills better than ever before..... 
 

I don't know if you are having a nervous breakdown, or if you are deliberately trying to cause trouble on here but what you seem to imply was that I was saying that to JWI, which of course i wasn't.
If you had read it properly you would have noticed i was quoting what Jesus had said to the Pharisees. 
As for me following what JWI had said, do you have a problem with that ? If so make in known and plainly.  I have  realised for a long time that YOU like to be the centre of attention, well tough luck because you are not, so just live with it. JWI writes things that i find sensible, where as you, Mr storyteller, write utter rubbish. 
What I actually wanted from @JW Insider was simple statements that the GB / JW Org were getting it wrong, and therefore teaching false teachings. Why ? Well one reason is to answer you when you boast about your ministry. Serving your GB and its Org, whilst telling lies to people in the world. 
Have a wonderful day Mr Harley. 

I (the little person),  enjoyed how you laid out the British part of the empire history in the middle east before 1914 and you mentioned how Russel understood 1914 to be significant - by whatever means. 
To me, this history you highlighted is important history of the "little horn" in Daniel chapter 7, the one which boasts and later grows and becomes the 7th head of the beast in rev 13 - also depicted as the false prophet of Revelation 13 (the beast with 2 horns -anglo-american dual world power- who speaks like a lamb but is a dragon.)  This is the beast who will harass the holy ones of God and also, in it's time the Son of man will go into the court before his Father and receive his crown - the kingdom government. This time sequence is important in time of end prophecy because it relates to the other prophecies in Matt and Luke about the perousia. 
This is the 7th beast which must rule for a period of time and in which time according to Daniel 7 - jesus would be crowned in heaven........... and the " image of the beast " will come into existence (go down and come up again).  This happens AFTER Jesus is crowned in heaven. These previous 7 beasts were confined to certain parts of the globe where the majority of god's people were to be affected by its hegemony.  
Since the nation of God- dedicated to his name and called his people according to Isaiah 2:2-4-   will come from  every tribe and nation "in the last days" ,  one realizes that one now must look at global events - no longer only at regional developments or to single empires (7  consecutive heads). The nation of God will be affected by what is going on at a global scale in time of end since the "image of the beast" has 7 heads with 10 crowns and it becomes the eighth king for a short period.  All those who refuse to worship the image of the wild beast will be killed and will not be able to buy or sell in the countries they are living. Rev13:15.  This happens before Armageddon.  The 7th head and image of the beast which is the 8th king,  clearly indicates quite a period of time will pass after the crowning of christ.
Jehovah is a strict time keeper and let's us know in his word what to expect. We have already entered the time where 176 nations have willingly given the "image of the beast " authority to control its policies.  The UN has already dictating policy to EU, Canada, Australia, NZ, southern and central Africa and has just given Russia and China the go-ahead for its 35 satellites to surveille those under its jurisdiction when China and Russia have synchronized their surveillance systems by June 2020.  Beidou and GLONASS.  It is capable of much more than they are telling. The middle east, Turkey and north Africa will work with Russia.  China and Russia has forged its alliance which is getting stronger.  UN sees China as a world model to follow - crazy though it seems.  They believe that control of populations will bring world peace.  Those who do not obey will face the consequences. 
America has been infiltrated by NGOs and foreign money  via foundations, propaganda and philosophy, to the extent that it will comply with UN wishes.   I doubt the next election will be fair because Google is working with UN as is other major super capitalist / oiligarchical corporations . .... filtering all propaganda to suit UN objectives.  BUT we may still be surprised as there is a nationalistic popular resistance in EU, UK, and US against UN policies of globalization with no borders. This may lengthen the time for UN to brings its plans to fruition.  So we can read the times we are living in but do not know how fast or slow it will proceed. ..... so the day and hour remains elusive.
I look at current "global " history - to see where we are in stream of time.  The slave has given us enough food and understanding to peer into the scriptures on our own.  They have understood the beast, image of the beast etc.  Spot-on.  There is no doubt in my mind that they are used by jehovah - warts and all.
This is why the GB is so urgent in its message to get ourselves into spotless  condition to stay faithful. Things/events will now start moving very fast so that no-one can keep up with the quick  developments. UN, Russia and China have been working on 20-25 year strategies....and global capitalists in the West and UN have all been  working together for at least 70 years. Their plans will come to fruition because opposition will be crushed in a brutal way.
We are already almost there but the exact new developments and the time remains hidden.
 
 
 I read the 607 discussion on this forum a while back ..... I saw that no-one mentioned the festival of Akitu which took place in 538 BCE. Cyrus was appointed king of kings on Nissan 1-14 in 14 day festival. It was then when he gave decree that all could go back.  It gave one year for Israelites all over the empire to get the message, pack up, meet each other and take the trek of 4 months back to Jerusalem.
All contributors did not know about this or wilfully ignore this historical fact. .... in order to disprove the accuracy of 607 BCE. 

..because it is a self aggrandizing lie, contrary to facts.
... be careful about expecting others to be perfect .... they may think they are, and have rifles.

No, you concrete-brained dinosaur—“all mixed up and firmly set”—because they act the same way when no money at all is at involved. They do things that cost a fortune to benefit penny-less persons in the developing world
If it was all about money with them, they would have TOLD you to go to college, earn as much money as you can, and send it all to them! They would not be recommending people at every turn to lighten up on their use of the world—they would advise people to double down on it!
Just one blockhead on the WNMF will do it for me.

Do you think it MIGHT have something to do with ... oh, say ..... MONEY?
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
As Marvin Webster sez: "Y'all think about it."
 
============================================================
 
That was before they invented "TUMS".

Or, as Obi-Wan Kanobe cried out in anguish, on the Millineum Falcon, and Luke Skywalker turned and asked "What's the matter Obi-Wan ... did you suddenly feel a disturbance in the Force, as if millions of voices cried out in terror, and suddenly went silent?"
Obi-Wan Kanobe, one hand on his forehead, and one on his stomach replied, " Naw ... just a bit of indigestion."

It all depends upon where you look and what is most important to you.
I am reminded of that line from the 1968 book The Truth that Leads to Eternal Life: “True, there has been progress in a materialistic way. But is it really progress when men send rockets to the moon, and yet cannot live together in peace on earth?”
Some people think it is.

@b4ucuhear 
Quote " Also, who and at what point would a faithful and discreet slave manifest themselves..."
I don't think there is a F&DS as such. I don't think anyone should give themselves that title. If Jesus as the Master returns and finds a certain group of humans doing what he wants them to do, then Jesus himself will decide who that 'slave' is. BUT for a person or group of people to exalt themselves to such a position, well the scriptures tell us what happens to those that Exalt THEMSELVES. 
This bit is so funny :-
Quote " Dates are of little concern to anyone who intends their dedication to God to be forever. "
So, in that case, the Bible Students and Watchtower writers / GB / JW Org et al, are not intending to dedicate themselves to God forever. Because they have always guessed at dates, told lies about dates, destroyed peoples lives with dates, and made a mockery of God with their guessing about dates. It has always been GOING BEYOND THE THINGS WRITTEN. 
 

But if GB / Writing department only wrote TRUTH that they were 100% certain of and could prove, then the Watchtower mags would be empty, and there would be no 'talk outlines' to use. However, why is it not possible to just have meetings that give praise to God through Christ, without needing to give false information through a magazine ? And why do people need to be told, using a 'Work Book', what to preach ? Surely if they are qualified to preach they would know in their hearts what to preach.  It all just shows that the congregants are just puppets for the GB and it's Org. 
Of course it also shows that I'm not qualified to preach to others  or I would be doing so. Unfortunately, having got rid of a fake foundation, I haven't yet built a new foundation. But i still think that having an empty cup is better than having a cup of poison. So I've thrown the poison away, washed out the cup (my heart and my mind), and now I'm ready to receive truth. But where that truth will come from i do not know. 
 

They didn’t know that at the time, you dodo. It is only after the fact that their letters were collected and included in the Bible canon.
The example of Paul is almost as bad as that of Peter the Chicken (Galatians 2:21) and John, who lost every 2nd disciple, as I put before ‘hardening of the mental arteries’ JTR for his consideration.
“To the married people I give instructions, yet not I but the Lord, that a wife should not depart from her husband; but if she should actually depart, let her remain unmarried or else make up again with her husband; and a husband should not leave his wife,” he writes. (1 Corinthians 7:11)
And then...
“But to the others I say, yes, I, not the Lord: If any brother has an unbelieving wife, and yet she is agreeable to dwelling with him, let him not leave her.” Vs 12
Whoa! Going beyond what is written much?
”Now concerning virgins I have no command from the Lord, but I give my opinion as one who had mercy shown him by the Lord to be faithful.”  Vs 25
His opinion?!!
Can you imagine how @James Thomas Rook Jr., not to mention yourself, would have blown a gasket back then?
 

It is still so funny how JWs need to compare modern day Elders to those Anointed Christians of the first century. Anointed Christians back then were inspired of God, hence they wrote Bible books that we have now. Obviously the apostates were not inspired of God.
Elders, just like the GB, are not inspired by God, and do not have a clue. There really is no comparison. 
I have faith that God through Christ will inspire Anointed ones again soon.  

The Insight Book is from the Org, because they are frightened to answer honest questions. 
And you @b4ucuhear just follow the GB / Orgs directions blindly. 
I like the second scripture you used 
1 Timothy 6:3 "If any man teaches another doctrine and does not agree with the wholesome instruction, which is from our Lord Jesus Christ, nor with the teaching that is in harmony with godly devotion, 4 he is puffed up with pride and does not understand anything. He is obsessed with arguments and dates about words. These things give rise to envy, strife, slander, wicked suspicions, 5 constant disputes about minor matters by men who are corrupted in mind and deprived of the truth..." 
The Bible Students and the Directors / GB / of Watchtower & JW Org have constantly argued about things. GB members have bee d/fed. Some on here that have worked in Bethel can give you first hand information about regular squabbles there. 
And the puffed up with pride bit, defo' refers to the GB calling themselves the F&DS. 

There are people that will stand in the middle of quicksand, and declare adamantly that they are not ... even as they drown, and their head disappears from sight.
There is NOTHING you can do for such ones.   Nothing at all.
They are doomed to always be wrong, even in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary.