JW Insider

Here's the curious way that 1 Enoch 40:7-9 refers to both of them: 7. And on that day were two monsters parted, a female monster named Leviathan, to dwell in the abysses of the ocean over the fountains of the waters. 8. But the male is named Behemoth, who occupied with his breast a waste wilderness named †Dûidâin†, on the east of the garden where the elect and righteous dwell, where my grandfather was taken up, the seventh from Adam, the first man whom the Lord of Spirits created. 9. And I besought the other angel that he should show me the might of those monsters, how they were parted on one day and cast, the one into the abysses of the sea, and the other unto the dry land of the wilderness. One question that came up was why Behemoth is male and Leviathan is female. Why would such a detail be important? Enoch doesn't say much about them, but does mention Tartarus and Chaos, which might become important to the overall discussion. When Enoch mentions the 7 archangels in chapter 20, he mentions that CHAPTER XX. 1. And these are the names of the holy angels who watch. 2. Uriel, one of the holy angels, who is over the world and over Tartarus. 3. Raphael, one of the holy angels, who is over the spirits of men. 4. Raguel, one of the holy angels who †takes vengeance on† the world of the luminaries. 5. Michael, one of the holy angels, to wit, he that is set over the best part of mankind ⌈⌈and⌉⌉ over chaos. 6. Saraqâêl, one of the holy angels, who is set over the spirits, who sin in the spirit. 7. Gabriel, one of the holy angels, who is over Paradise and the serpents and the Cherubim. 8. Remiel, one of the holy angels, whom God set over those who rise. This is mentioned because if either Leviathan the Dragon, or Behemoth the Beast is tied to Chaos, we might expect Michael to be the archangel to fight him. If Tartarus it might be the archangel of Light [Uriel/Oriel=God is Light]. Recall that the Septuagint included the idea that these were created to be "mocked" by the angels. I believe that Bible verses create a link between the ideas of the words "mocked" and "taunted." Jewish ideas gave the killing of Leviathan first to Gabriel, however, the archangel over the serpents. Just to start the response to the reason they are given different genders here, I can quote some of the other extra-Biblical works and traditions carried in Jewish literature. Here is a summary from the Jewish Encyclopedia: LEVIATHAN AND BEHEMOTH: Names of gigantic beasts or monsters described in Job xl. The former is from a root denoting "coil," "twist"; the latter is the plural form of "behemah"="beast." Ever since Bochart ("Hierozoicon," iii. 705), "behemoth" has been taken to denote the hippopotamus; and Jablonski, to make it correspond exactly with that animal, compared an Egyptian form, "p-ehe-mu" (= "water-ox"), which, however, does not exist. The Biblical description contains mythical elements, and the conclusion is justified that these monsters were not real, though the hippopotamus may have furnished in the main the data for the description. Only of a unique being, and not of a common hippopotamus, could the words of Job xl. 19 have been used: "He is the first [A. V. "chief"] of the ways of God [comp. Prov. viii. 22]; he that made him maketh sport with him" (as the Septuagint reads, πεποιημένον ἐγκαταπαιζέσΘαι; A. V. "He that made him can make his sword to approach unto him"; comp. Ps. civ. 26); or "The mountains bring him forth food; where all the beasts of the field do play" (Job xl. 20). Obviously behemoth is represented as the primeval beast, the king of all the animals of the dry land, while leviathan is the king of all those of the water, both alike unconquerable by man (ib. xl. 14, xli. 17-26). Gunkel ("Schöpfung und Chaos," p. 62) suggests that behemoth and leviathan were the two primeval monsters corresponding to Tiamat (= "the abyss"; comp. Hebr. "tehom") and Kingu (= Aramaic "'akna" = serpent") of Babylonian mythology. . . . —In Rabbinical Literature: According to a midrash, the leviathan was created on the fifth day (Yalḳ., Gen. 12). Originally God produced a male and a female leviathan, but lest in multiplying the species should destroy the world, He slew the female, reserving her flesh for the banquet that will be given to the righteous on the advent of the Messiah (B. B. 74a). The enormous size of the leviathan is thus illustrated by R. Johanan, from whom proceeded nearly all the haggadot concerning this monster: "Once we went in a ship and saw a fish which put his head out of the water. He had horns upon which was written: 'I am one of the meanest creatures that inhabit the sea. I am three hundred miles in length, and enter this day into the jaws of the leviathan'" (B. B. l.c.). When the leviathan is hungry, reports R. Dimi in the name of R. Johanan, he sends forth from his mouth a heat so great as to make all the waters of the deep boil, and if he would put his head into paradise no living creature could endure the odor of him (ib.). His abode is the Mediterranean Sea; and the waters of the Jordan fall into his mouth (Bek. 55b; B. B. l.c.). The body of the leviathan, especially his eyes, possesses great illuminating power. This was the opinion of R. Eliezer, who, in the course of a voyage in company with R. Joshua, explained to the latter, when frightened by the sudden appearance of a brilliant light, that it probably proceeded from the eyes of the leviathan. He referred his companion to the words of Job xli. 18: "By his neesings a light doth shine, and his eyes are like the eyelids of the morning" (B. B. l.c.). . . . In the Messianic Times. The leviathan is prominent in the haggadic literature in connection with the advent of the Messiah. Referring to Job xl. 30 (Hebr.), "and the pious ones [] shall make a banquet of it," R. Johanan says that at the time of the resurrection a banquet will be given by God to the righteous, at which the flesh of the leviathan will be served (B. B. l.c.). . . . Gabriel will be charged with the killing of the monster; but he will not be able to accomplish his task without the help of God, who will divide the monster with His sword. . . . Not only will the flesh of the leviathan furnish food for the table of the righteous, but there will be a great supply of it in the markets of Jerusalem (B. B. l.c.). From the hide of the leviathan God will make tents for the pious of the first rank, girdles for those of the second, chains for those of the third, and necklaces for those of the fourth. The remainder of the hide will be spread on the walls of Jerusalem; and the whole world will be illuminated by its brightness (ib.). Symbolical Interpretation. These haggadot concerning the leviathan are interpreted as allegories by all the commentators with the exception of some ultraconservatives like Baḥya ben Asher ("Shulḥan Arba'," ch. iv., p. 9, col. 3). According to Maimonides, the banquet is an allusion to the spiritual enjoyment of the intellect (commentary on Sanh. i.). The name, he says, is derived from (" to join," "to unite"), and designates an imaginary monster in which are combined the most various animals ("Moreh," iii., ch. xxiii.). In the cabalistic literature the "piercing leviathan" and the "crooked leviathan" (Isa. xxvii. 1), upon which the haggadah concerning the hunting of the animal is based, are interpreted as referring to Satan-Samael and his spouse Lilith ("'Emeḳ ha-Melek," p. 130a), while Ḳimḥi, Abravanel, and others consider the expressions to be allusions to the destruction of the powers which are hostile to the Jews (comp. Manasseh ben Israel, "Nishmat Ḥayyim," p. 48; see also Kohut, "Aruch Completum," s. v. "Leviathan," for other references, and his essay in "Z. D. M. G." vol. xxi., p. 590, for the parallels in Persian literature). The haggadic sayings obtained a hold on the imagination of the poets, who introduced allusions to the banquet of the leviathan into the liturgy. —In Apocryphal Literature: Both leviathan and behemoth are prominent in Jewish eschatology. In the Book of Enoch (lx. 7-9), Enoch says: . . . [already quoted above] According to II Esdras vi. 49-53, God created on the fifth day the two great monsters, leviathan and behemoth, and He separated them because the seventh part of the world which was assigned to the water could not hold them together, and He gave to the behemoth that part which was dried up on the third day and had the thousand mountains which, according to Ps. i. 10, as understood by the haggadists ("the behemoth [A. V. "cattle"] upon a thousand hills"; comp. Lev. R. xxii.; Num. R. xxi.; and Job xl. 20), furnish behemoth with the necessary food. To the leviathan God gave the seventh part of the earth filled with water; and He reserved it for the future to reveal by whom and at what time the leviathan and the behemoth should be eaten. In the Syriac Apocalypse of Baruch, xxix. 4, also, the time is predicted when the behemoth will come forth from his seclusion on land and the leviathan out of the sea, and the two gigantic monsters, created on the fifth day, will serve as food for the elect who will survive in the days of the Messiah. . . .

Thought that the Watchtower provided the names as a response to a request for all the cases of sexual child abuse on file. (The cases cover quite a range that might not always be defined as criminal child sexual abuse, but it was the Watchtower intending to provide cases that fell under this definition.) Also, it wasn't 1006 incidents, but 1,006 files about the abusers. Therefore the number of incidents was higher than the 1,006 cases of abusers. I also understand that several of the cases have already been turned over to the authorities based on time that has past, and evidence of criminality. A few of these have already hit local Australian papers. I've been sent 4 of them, and told about others, but I am not interested in posting them. Enough of that happens by others. (In one of the cases, where the person is much older now, the authorities decided not to prosecute, stating that his disfellowshipping by his congregation had already produced a severe punishment. I guess they consider disfellowshipping to be a bit like a prison sentence.)

Me, too. We all know that the Bible refers to "beasts" and "dragons" in the apocalyptic books such as Daniel and Revelation, but I guess we just didn't want them mentioned as if they were "real" in the book of Job. The Librarian pointed out that someone had asked me a question about Enoch (non-canonical apocalyptic book), where Leviathan and Behemoth are mentioned together in a very curious way. To answer that question, I thought it was a good idea to set up the background comparing what we have believed about Behemoth and Leviathan compared to what some of the Bible-believers in Bible times believed about them.

Vince Foster's death was ruled a suicide by 5 separate investigations, 4 of which were handled by Clinton enemies who would have been anxious to determine something more sinister. Doesn't mean it was a complete coincidence, though. Embarrassment to Foster over some shenanigans at the time, for both the Clintons and Foster, could be blamed for deepening his depression. Funny that William Jefferson Clinton fired William Sessions from FBI while Jefferson Sessions is now the AG. Also curious that Comey refers to Bill Clinton's unethical meeting on a plane, with AG, Loretta Lynch as his reason for going over her head at the time and making the untimely announcements about Bill's wife, who was under investigation at the time. Bill is still a trouble-maker after all these years. I don't know if Bill ever made the points he wanted to make on that plane. I'm sure he had an angle, and it may be beside the point, but that's where I draw the line. I'm geometrically opposed to all of these figures.

When I was a boy, I heard my father give the Society's hour talk on the book of Job about 10 times. The talk spent a good portion of the time showing that Behemoth was a hippopotamus, and Leviathan was a crocodile. Of course, very little time was spent on the fact that the book of Job also says the following about the Behemoth, which is not at all true of a hippo: (Job 40:15-20) 15 Here, now, is Be·heʹmoth, which I made as I made you. . . . 17It stiffens [or, sways] its tail like a cedar; The sinews of its thighs are woven together. 18 Its bones are tubes of copper; Its limbs are like wrought-iron rods. 19It ranks first [or, "it is the beginning" -- NWT footnote] among the works of God; Only its Maker can approach it with his sword. 20For the mountains produce food for it, Where all the wild animals play. The little tail of the hippopotamus does not move or sway like a cedar. It was hardly the beginning of God's creative works. The mountains do not produce food for it. Creatures much more terrifying than hippos have been caught and hunted by man for centuries. When we know what Behemoth is we can then understand why it is tied to the creation of man (cf. "which I made as I made you"), and why it is said to be "first" among God's creative works. Another curious thing about "Behemoth" is that it is a plural word. If it is a type of "plural of majesty" (as in Elohim, or "God of Gods"), then it could mean something like, "Beast of Beasts." The Leviathan is even less like a crocodile than Behemoth is like a hippo. Note: (Job 41:1-34) . . .“Can you catch Le·viʹa·than with a fishhook Or hold down its tongue with a rope? . . . 7 Will you fill its hide with harpoons Or its head with fishing spears? 8 Lay your hand on it; You will remember the battle and never do it again! 9 Any hope of subduing it is futile. The mere sight of it would overwhelm you. 10 No one dares to stir it up. . . . 12 I will not be silent about its limbs, About its mightiness and its well-formed body. 13 Who has removed its outer covering? Who will enter its open jaws? 14 Who can pry open the doors of its mouth? Its teeth all around are fearsome. 15 Its back has rows of scales Tightly sealed together. 16 Each one fits so closely to the other That no air can come between them. 17 They are stuck to one another; They cling together and cannot be separated. 18 Its snorting flashes out light, And its eyes are like the rays of dawn. Flashes of lightning go out of its mouth; Fiery sparks escape. 20 Smoke pours out of its nostrils, Like a furnace fueled with rushes. 21 Its breath sets coals ablaze, And a flame shoots from its mouth. 22 There is great strength in its neck, And dismay runs before it. 23 The folds of its flesh are tightly joined together; They are firm, as though cast upon it and immovable. 24 Its heart is hard as stone, Yes, hard as a lower millstone. 25 When it rises up, even the mighty are frightened; Its thrashing causes bewilderment. 26 No sword that reaches it will prevail; Nor will spear, dart, or arrowhead. 27 It regards iron as straw, Copper as rotten wood. 28 An arrow does not make it flee; Slingstones turn into stubble against it. 29 It regards a club as stubble, And it laughs at the rattling of a javelin. 30 Underneath, it is like sharp fragments of pottery; It spreads itself in the mud like a threshing sledge. 31It makes the deep boil just like a pot; It stirs up the sea like an ointment pot. 32 It leaves a glistening wake in its path. One would think that the deep had white hair. 33 There is nothing like it on the earth, A creature made to have no fear. 34 It glares at everything that is haughty. It is king over all the majestic wild beasts.” Do crocodiles snort out fire and sparks from their nostrils? Do their eyes shine brightly? Does lightning go out of its mouth? is it like a furnace inside, so that its very breath sends a flame that can set coals ablaze? Does it really stir up the deep seas like a cauldron? Looking again at the New World Translation it's hard for me to believe, now, that I ever thought this was a crocodile. Of course, part of the problem is that Witnesses, like many fundamentalist religions, too, do not want to see "fabulous" creatures in the Bible. It opens up the Bible to ridicule if it refers to "real" dragons and unicorns and beasts that seem never to have existed. Yet the idea appears even more "fabulous" if we read from some other translations, or more especially, the "Septuagint" LXX era translations, which would have been based on Hebrew manuscripts from as early as 400 BCE, rather than the NWT which is based on Hebrew manuscripts from as late as 1100 CE. Here are some of the quotes from Job in the LXX: http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/nets/edition/28-iob-nets.pdf Job 40:15-23 But look now you are familiar with "monsters" [Behemoth]; they eat grass like cows. Look now its strength is in its loins, and its power in its belly's navel. It stood up its tail like a cypress, and its sinews have been interwoven. Its flanks are flanks of copper, and its spine is cast iron. . . . This is the chief of what the Lord created, made to be mocked at by his angels. But when it went up on a steep mountain, it brought its gladness to the quadrupeds in Tartarus. . . . If there is a flood, it will never take notice. {*It trusts that the Jordan will tumble into its mouth.} Job 40:25-41:26 [Masoretic 41:1-34] And will you catch a dragon [Leviathan] with a fish hook? . . . And do nations feed on it, and do the Phoenician races divvy it up? And a whole fleet, gathered, cannot carry the mere skin of its tail. {and its head in fisherman's boats}. But you will lay a hand on it, though you remember the battle that is waging in its body, and let it happen no more! . . . Who will uncover the front of what it is wearing? And who could enter the plate of its cuirass? Who will open the gates of its face? Fear is all around its teeth. Its inwards are bronze shields. . . . Light shines forth at its sneezing and its eyes have the look of the morning star. From its mouth proceed flaming torches, and fiery braziers are being cast forth. From its nostrils smoke of a furnace burning with the fire of coals. Its soul is coals, and a flame proceeds from its mouth. . . . Its heart is solid like stone, and it stands like an unyielding anvil. . . . It makes the deep boil like a caldron and regards the sea as a pot of ointment and Tartarus of the deep as a captive. . . . There is nothing else on earth like it, made to be mocked at by my angels. Everything high it sees, and it is king over all that are in the waters. The basic idea remains in modern translations, but there is some evidence that the Masoretic text (which the NWT is based upon) has often cleaned up what was thought to be embarrassing to medieval rabbis in the intervening centuries. The references to "Tartarus" [see Greek mythology] are curious, especially due to 2 Peter 2:4. But the additional references to Leviathan in the Hebrew Scriptures are just as striking.

That can happen too often. And some (hopefully very few) who see the current emotional vulnerability of persons abused in the past may also "abuse" them again by claiming that they will get justice for them by collecting money to be that "voice." Persons completely unrelated to Witnesses and ex-Witnesses and Catholics and ex-Catholics have already begun knocking to take advantage of persons in both groups. (Heard from a witness in Australia. The persons involved were not attorneys.)

I'm assuming that the talk is intended to cover the issue of child abuse, and the "evil" refers primarily to those who sexually abuse children.

That's a really good way to put it: "The quality of critical thinking is going downhill." I've seen people who say they have turned to atheism and agnosticism because any critical thinker can see that it's all based on superstition. They they begin following their astrology signs, and claim that there really is something to it. Astrology is one of the more insidious proofs that the quality of critical thinking has gone downhill. It has been around for thousands of years, probably as old as the human race. Yet it was always based on superstitions. But it's primary fault is in the fact that it makes people think that there fate is quasi-determined by pre-existing external conditions. This means (partly) that they can drift into a non-thinking, non-planning view of life and that critical thinking skills are unnecessary. When Peter told Jesus that he would not meet with a certain death as the outcome of his ministry, Peter told him, basically, not to worry, to think positively. Peter wasn't thinking critically. He wasn't taking in the whole picture, and only wanted to see something that fit his personal wishes regarding the fate of Jesus. He wanted to see the easy way out. Therefore, Jesus said to Peter, "Get behind me, Satan!"

"Fake" news. This is a "Fan Account." It's not the actual Twitter account of the Vice President. The real VP has the following info on Twitter: Vice President Pence‏Verified account @VP This guy who apparently hopes to fool people names himself: The Vice President @MikePenceVP

Go-pher it!

They are surely examples that show there is no total control. After baptism people make decisions for themselves, and admit them to others, even if these would risk their fellowship and their "position." Not really. I was thinking about these very same types of issues when I gave the two bad examples above. The Service Department (Correspondence) received plenty of letters where people asked if it was OK not to believe certain things. Brothers Malone and Pruitt, both of whom were in Correspondence, (and attended the same congregation that I did) mentioned a wide range of questions that came in from brothers and sisters afraid to mention their belief to the local elders. Examples: Is it OK to believe that all the creative days were not exactly 7,000 years long? Is it OK to believe in 587 BCE for the destruction of Jerusalem? And, my favorite, "Is it OK to believe in evolution, at least while I'm still in school?"

"obeservations" -- reservations at a restaurant for gluttons?

As I've also stated before, there is no "total" control. There is a measure of control, and many feel it strongly, and many don't feel it at all. Some who feel it strongly, appreciate it. Some don't. Some who don't feel controlled in the least, may actually be the most "controlled." I think, too, whether we are uncomfortable with it, is probably a matter of who we feel to be in control. If we have trust that Jehovah is in overall control, no matter what the current situation in our congregation is, then we are likely to feel good about that kind of control. If we give too much credit (aka, blame) to the human leadership, then we are likely to feel less appreciative of certain kinds of control. Where control is discipline, most of us realize that 'whom Jehovah loves he disciplines' and 11 True, no discipline seems for the present to be joyous, but it is painful;* yet afterward, it yields the peaceable fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it. (Hebrews 12:11) Some measure of control can therefore be a good thing. This assumes that we have humbly accepted human leadership, and are willing to be obedient to those who take the lead. It's not a good example, but I know a regular pioneer who believes in evolution. She has admitted it to my daughter and another JW friend, who are her best friends. (It was also obvious from schoolwork they did in high school together.) ...[edited to remove second example]... I also think that the organization has changed significantly (for the better) since the time, about 35 years ago, when persons on the Governing Body even recommended that beliefs we keep to ourselves should also be grounds for disfellowshipping. One member of the Governing Body recommended that Bethelites stop doing "deep Bible study," and a cleaned-up version of his words make it into the Watchtower around the same time. At a meeting of Bethel elders, the same GB member even suggested that everyone take a "loyalty oath." This was a time when some people might remember "total control" but it doesn't exist anymore. This doesn't mean there won't be a controlling elder here and there who always pushes a judicial committee to agree with him, and who always gets his way. There are many cases of injustice, and some never get appealed because they basically just create an atmosphere of toxicity that an offended person might not want to go back to. I'm pretty sure we all know of Witnesses who have moved from one congregation to another due to feeling an atmosphere of toxicity or they say "there was no love" in their previous congregation. I think it usually refers to a bad experience that colors their entire view of a congregation, even if others in the same congregation feel plenty of love. For some, an experience can clearly color their entire view of the entire organization of Jehovah's Witnesses. But I think that plenty of the complaints are actually carry-overs from ex-JWs who lived through the experience of a few decades ago, or just happened to be treated in this way more recently. I think that they hold onto their anger against the Witnesses due to the shunning practice, which they are sure they do not deserve. The basic issue is the loss of the love of family and relatives when a person feels that they can't associate any more. This is a much different experience than those who are disfellowshipped for a breach of conduct and know that it is only to help them get back into the congregation with a clean slate.

Possibly true, and therefore not funny. More probably not true, and therefore made up to remind people of how "funny" it is to make fun of others. Funny how humor works, sometimes. (Not claiming that I am immune from laughing at such things myself, but this one caught me at the wrong time, I guess.)

So do I. But I don't think that's what the question about making predictions was about. For example: saying that we are sure we will see an increase of at least 3% in worldwide activity in a specific country due to a campaign to encourage more publishers to join the rank of pioneers in that country is not a Bible-based prediction. Saying that the end of this system of things is expected within a few short years or even months after 1975 is a Bible-based prediction if we based it on Daniel 4 to get 1914 and we were adding a 70 year generation who were at least 10 years old in 1914, and who 'would not pass away' and found that all this coincided with a Bible-based belief that 6,000 years of human existence should coincide with a seventh day we believed to be 7,000 years long, where the 1,000 year reign should also fit within that 7,000 year period. We said that the 1970's would be the "appropriate time for God to act" based on Bible interpretations. If we had predicted that 50,000 anointed would be joined by 500,000 of the other sheep based on an interpretation of '10 men taking hold of the skirt of a Jew' then this might have been said to be Bible-based. I also remember a brother saying that Knorr had predicted that he could get a crowd bigger than a Billy Graham convention. Supposedly this was the reason that instead of having multiple assemblies across the nation in 1953 and 1958, Knorr decided to promote single US conventions in New York City in both these years. .

Nigeria has a very high ratio of Witnesses in the population. The site currently has only three articles mentioning Jehovah's Witnesses, two of them from 2016, but one of them is list of the most popular religions in Nigeria, and JWs are listed 4th in a listing of 10. 10 Popular Churches In Nigeria And Their Origin The other article is called: See What Jehovah Witnesses Go Through When Spreading The Message (photos) This is exactly the kind of fake news that could be seized upon by Witnesses from other countries who are not as familiar with Trump's style. I'd say that it was not designed to create confusion and uncertainty, but designed to create excitement and attention, even if short-lived (and short-sighted).

I'm guessing that @Kurt who worded the thread "Are JW's able to predict future events?" was specifically avoiding the idea that the Governing Body has claimed to serve as a prophet. In fact, his first words were "JWs are not prophets." In the past however, from long before I was baptized until at least a decade afterwards, the faithful and discreet slaved claimed to be a prophet. They also claimed that the organization of Jehovah's Witnesses is indeed a prophet -- and not just a "prophet-like" organization. There has not yet been a direct retraction of this claim. However it has not been repeated since the 1980's as far as I remember. But we can't say that it is not still implied. Many articles have been published on the topic of the "faithful and discreet slave" and many of them have in some way connected their function to that of the prophets of old. Comparisons are drawn between respect for the faithful and discreet slave and respect for various named prophets and leaders of Jehovah's people in the past. This is admittedly more subtle, but it creates a belief system that implies that the spirit-directed organization will be able to provide specific direction during the great tribulation which is going to be directly related to direction by the holy spirit. We are told to expect that it is direction that will not necessarily make sense from a rational or logical or human perspective, but that we will need to obey it when the time comes. I think that this type of thinking has obviously already permeated some of the heightened expectations with regard to current world events and Russian suppression. If anyone questions that point, I'd be happy to discuss some of that evidence again. However, I think the subject here is about whether anything ever predicted has come true, yet. For now, I will merely claim that Watch Tower publications have never yet not made a Bible-prophecy related prediction that has come true yet. Naturally, I am willing to adjust that belief if evidence is forthcoming. And according to your definition of "predict" dozens of specific prophetic things have been predicted with the expectation that they should have already occurred. I base that belief on evidence from topics that have already been touched upon. This does not mean that future expectations won't turn out to be true, but I do think that it's better to have an understanding of the track record of the past before we stick our neck out and say that we are absolutely sure we know how future events will turn out. I'd say that we don't really know if it's true for a fact that the United Nations is the beast. We have identified it in other ways in the past. We don't know if any particular entity will turn against religion as a whole and leave our organization intact as a single organization. We don't know in what way survivors of the great tribulation will be identified or protected -- whether as a single identified group or as individuals. We don't really "know" anything that was based on interpretation of prophecy. We don't really know if a generation of the type Jesus spoke of could be "overlapping" or even if Matthew 24 was about our own specific time period. It's a reasonable and rational belief, but it is a prophecy that has been redefined in every generation since it was first prophesied. Our own track record has always shown, through hundreds of changes so far, that all of our past, non-current interpretations of prophecy were based on private interpretation. Again, we might have it absolutely right this time. Past performance may have no bearing on future performance as the financial industry is apt to claim as a caveat about putting stock in stocks. Survival through this system of things will always turn out to be a matter of "what sort of persons ought we to be." I can't think why anyone would "seize upon" these words and fault Knorr for underestimating hundreds and thousands when it turned out to be millions. Knorr was a very good predictor when it came to logistics. By collecting a lot of data about monthly book and magazine campaigns and by watching how closely the goals were met, and by comparing month-to-month and year-to-year estimates versus actuals, Knorr was able to have the right number of books and magazines in the pipeline at all times. This is why he was such a good factory manager, and it's what he taught Max Larson, then Richard Wheelock and Dean Songer. I'd say that Knorr was an excellent logistical predictor. I've heard that Brother Dean Songer was said to be slightly better, and he kept that job for many years due to his excellent math skills. Of course, I'm not considering these types of mundane predictions to be part of the Watch Tower's track record on Bible-based predictions. If Knorr's numbers seemed limited, I doubt that he intended them to be. Rutherford, especially in his later years, had often argued that every assembly was probably going to be the last before Armageddon, and he even argued that the preaching work was done, which is why he argued against Knorr's idea of a missionary school. Rutherford began to argue, as Russell had argued many years before him, that we don't need to "convert" people in every nation, only be a part of providing a "witness" to people of every nation, and Rutherford was sure that this was already accomplished. Knorr's tone could have merely been a "hedge" between what he hoped for and what Rutherford had stated, and this might be based on an understanding of Bible prophecy, but I don't remember anyone actually making a prophetic interpretation that would put an upper or lower limit on the numbers that might come in. The video I mentioned earlier made a connection between the League/UN prophecy and a desire for expansion, but I think this is an interpretation made for the recent video. I don't remember anything like it being made at the time.

Threads like that have been started by others and I didn't want to be the one to start a new one. I don't think that the Watch Tower Society needs to be beat up any further on the topic, if the point is merely to rehash old material that embarrasses us. The only way in which the question still has relevance is when someone today uses the modern day history of Jehovah's Witnesses in order to make claims that aren't true. Sometimes this is done by opposers, but we don't want to be guilty of making untrue claims, too. The basic idea of the question in the context of previous comments has always been about whether the Watch Tower Society has ever made a correct prediction based on their understanding of Bible prophecy at the time a prediction was made. For this definition, all we have to do is takes Eoin's dictionary contribution and add a contextual limitation to it. A prediction, in reference to the Watch Tower Society, would be any time that the WTS has published a statement or estimate about a specific thing (or consequence of something) that would happen during a specified range of time in the future. Whenever such a prediction has been made, has it ever happened as predicted? In other words, have the Watch Tower publications ever yet made a prediction that came true? I think that many persons on this forum have seen the WTS historical videos, especially the following two hour long videos: Jehovah's Witnesses—Faith in Action, Part 1: Out of Darkness https://tv.jw.org/#en/mediaitems/VODOrgMovies/pub-ivfa1_x_VIDEO Jehovah's Witnesses—Faith in Action, Part 2: Let the Light Shine https://tv.jw.org/#en/mediaitems/VODOrgMovies/pub-ivfa2_x_VIDEO In those videos, as I remember them, there are only 2 predictions noted that were expressed as evidences that Jehovah's holy spirit was truly with the leadership of the Watch Tower Society. One of them is featured prominently in Part 1, and one of them is featured prominently in Part 2. In Part 1, from about the 40:15 time-mark to the 45:00 time-mark, the subject is "1914 -- A Marked Year. " After making clear that this was a prediction made by Russell starting in 1876, two members of the Governing Body come into the video where Brother Losch says (at 44:05 to 44:30) that "it enhanced their trust that Jehovah was using Brother Russell and his friends to explain truth to others." Brother Morris adds (around 44:30) that "it was significant that they could pinpoint that year. That's phenomenal!" That was the entire point and concluding words of the section: that it was predicted to the year, and that this was phenomenal! In Part 2, from about the 15:50 time-mark to the 19:05 time-mark in the video, we hear about the prediction in 1942 that the League of Nations would rise again proving that a time of peace was coming. This prophecy sets up the section: "Taught by Jehovah." It's the prophecy about how WW II would not end in Armageddon, but that there would be a time of peace, (and therefore a time of potential expansion) based on the correct understanding and prediction that the League of Nations would arise again after going down into the abyss. (Revelation 17:8) Two members of the current GB (Morris & Jackson) come into the video and explain how this prediction came true after 1942, when the United Nations took the place of the old League of Nations in 1945. Both of these same predictions have been used together in later commentary from the Society. I think that they are considered to be the only actual cases of true predictions in the Watch Tower publications. I don't believe the Watch Tower publications ever predicted the rise of Hitler, although after a very brief period of support they exposed him for what he was. I don't believe that the Society ever predicted the ban in Russia over 10 years ago, either. The 1914 prediction has been discussed already, and it's clear that all the predictions the WTS made about it were wrong except for a correction made to the 1874 to 1914 timeline in the year 1904. Until then it was believed that a time of trouble must begin before 1914 and not after it. But it was realized that this would result in a harvest that was cut short due to the fact that at least one or more years' worth of tribulation would be expected prior to 1914. Some features of this impending tribulation were expected around 1910. So these "several months" of tribulation that were originally expected to precede the end of all national systems, and all religious systems, and all the world's institutions -- this expectation was moved to a short period just following 1914 and lasting at least until October 1915. Armageddon was still to start in 1914, although 1914 was now expanded to a 12-month period running from October 1914 to October 1915. With respect to Hitler, of course, the Governing Body's (Rutherford's) initially praised Hitler and made statements to the effect that Hitler's ideals were something like a political expression of the same ideal Kingdom of God that Witnesses stood for. So I don't believe this coexists with any predictions about Hitler that were true. I don't know what anyone might mean by claiming that this current Russian persecution was predicted. If this is in relation to the "king of the north" then the idea is not correct, anyway, per the more recent admissions made in the publications. I think the only exceptions the Watchtower can claim to the track record of "batting zero" are the following, then: the 1904 adjustment to the teaching about the nature of the 40-year harvest period starting in 1874 the idea that they predicted that the League of Nations would rise up again sometime after 1942 Unfortunately, both these claims have proved to be misleading in several ways.

I don't think anyone can say who it came from originally. The seed of these ideas often comes from persons looking at a respected news source. They then think about what might attract attention. I listened to an actual interview on NPR with the person who created the news story that the Pope endorsed Trump. He at first denied that it was him, but then realized that he had truly been caught, and decided that it would be better to explain what he and his "company" does. It was simply for the purpose of making money. The more interesting the hook, the more people will share it, and more eyeballs mean more money. It turns out he has created hundreds of such stories. Not all of them pan out, and sometimes he uses test stories, and tries some out on platforms where no money is to be made, just as a test of how much interest they might pull in. This story strikes me as one of those like the Pope and Trump. It didn't have quite the potential for pulling interest from at least half the United States, but it had a chance to pull in quite a few. They are almost always built on partially true stories, ones in which someone could easily say, "Oh yeah, I heard something about that a week or so ago. And isn't it interesting that Trump did say that he wouldn't take in Muslims, but that he would be quick to accept Christian refugees. That fits. People should know this. I have to share it." After I retired, about 4 years ago, I was talked into joining the new product marketing team for a major ISP, and I took it because I didn't have to go into the office more than once a month (and the office was out of state). But they paid for some seminars, and one of them was about how the most successful people sell product on the Internet. A set of "survivalist" sites were compared, and a very rich marketer gave a speech about how to sell to this group. He said, the first thing you have to remember is the motivation. Survivalists for example, are easy to scare. Just say, BOO! and they start running. But "BOO!" to them is a threat about the impending "end of the system." By this he meant the threat of a New World Order, Government Overreach, diminishing of "white rights" etc. He said that the biggest way to tap into all that right now (2013/2014) is to claim that "Obama is going to take away your guns." He showed the visiting stats and the sales stats for all the different marketing methods and slogans and key words, and he showed how much more successful this particular phrase worked with survivalists. It was really amazing. And he showed how fake news on the sites and Facebook pages that these persons are known to visit would enhance it. Fake news, he said, is always built on partially, or even almost totally true news, but with just enough "fear" factor in the spin to catch the interest, or to make your products more meaningful in the world you created with fake news. There did not have to be a direct link between the fake news and the product, but there was an indirect one. (Ironically, the man says that he and most of the people on his team were Obama supporters, despite the pro-NRA anti-Obama rhetoric in their fake news and advertisements. But there is also the use of niche audiences that a lot of fake news is intended to capture attention from. There have been persons who have worked for organizations that spoke out against cults in the past (Scientology, Moonies, etc) who realized that they could change their tune and find a new audience of millions if they spoke out in support of these same groups. Speaking out in defense of cults turned them into legal consultants and authors with a new guaranteed group of buyers. This is not so different from those consultants who spoke out in favor of cigarettes, arctic drilling, fracking, etc. There was even a man who made himself famous for a while with videos about how paper garbage didn't break down in landfills, but showed how plastic containers crushed down to take up a lot less space. It's not directly related but I heard that even the author Christine King, changed a version of her book to remove the line referring to Rutherford early support of Hitler. This was after working with the Watch Tower Society during a time of peak publicity efforts by the Organization. I can only suppose this was because she now had a new audience of potential buyers. So sometimes, it's a matter of "follow the money." But sometimes it could just as easily be a JW who thinks it would bring attention to Witnesses by making up a story, or turning a story about someone else into a story about Witnesses. This happened in a recent circuit overseer's talk mentioned on this forum (about a spider and a cave). It probably happened when someone put a jw.org logo on J ackie C han, etc, etc. For what it's worth, I think you did absolutely the right thing. If you hadn't brought up the story, someone else would have. And it was great that it ended up getting exposed for what it was.

This topic recently started (again) over here: In that conversation @James Thomas Rook Jr. said: "The Society has NEVER been right about ANYTHING they predicted .. which is why "new light" is discovered AFTER the facts become evident. I remember as a preteen boy accompanying my Mom to Assemblies where the "King of the North" and "Gog of Magog" were discussed . . . ." @Eoin Joyce included this in his response: "As JTR laments above, prophecy has it's many interpreters, but no there is no truer statement than that found in our Insight Vol 2 p.1141: "full discernment of the prophecy’s application may have to await God’s due time for its being carried out." This is in complete harmony with Jehovah's own word at 2Pet.1:20: "For you know this first, that no prophecy of Scripture springs from any private interpretation." In the same conversation @Aaron Mathewson mentioned a couple of items that he believed were "predicted" correctly, when he said: "Saying nothing has ever come true is completely false. Early in the history of the org there were incorrect assumptions, some of which partly made it into print. But after they saw the need and started basing their "prophecies" on scripture and only predicting what was obvious from the Bible, everything they have said has come true. They knew something bad would happen in 1914, and warned about Hitler's years before he tried to conquer the world, and they also predicted this ban in Russia over 10 years ago." In my response in that same conversation, I tried to put a definition to what kind of predictions we were talking about. I assumed it was something like this: I think this is why it's actually very true that we've never gotten anything correct (yet) when trying to make a prediction based on prophecy. . . . to put a time limit on [Biblical/prophetic] events, or predict that [such] events will happen within a certain time frame, or even try to tie a Biblical event to a particular entity in our current time frame." I don't know if these definitions work. Perhaps, Eoin, you have a workable definition of the term "predict" in the context of making predictions based on our understanding of Bible prophecy.

The whole point of the "Flying Spaghetti Monster Church" is to be a parody of religion, and try to get some "religious" style recognition to agnostics and atheists. My youngest son has a friend, a neighbor, who is 22 years old and still has FSM symbols on her car. What's odd is that she also believes in astrology. Go figure! I noticed that the same site reveals that there have been other extremist groups shut down by the Russian government. I'll translate one very surprising one in the next post . . . Unprecedented in the Russian judicial practice: law enforcement agencies managed to ban an underground organization of sports fans. It has been proven that football fans held extremist views by publishing the relevant positions in the network. 175 Samara fans football extremism He headed right radical community Eugene Gavrilov. It was under his leadership, members of the group Samara "Toys" for two years advocated nationalist ideas. What are they thinking now learned NTV correspondent Anton Talpa . Eugene Gavrilov, as they say in football, enough of the red card. Leader of the group of fans of "Toys" from Samara got from a judge in criminal cases - disqualification. During the beating, and appeals to racial hatred he was sent to the colony for six months. Community created by them as extremist and banned. There is a video in which Gavrilov, aka Le Havre, arranges a brawl in a nightclub. On the other - a few hours before Gavroilov with colleagues provoke unrest. There is in this story, and one more important fact. For the first time in the judicial practice of law enforcement agencies managed to disable it underground organization of fans. Samara "Toys" were not officially registered, and therefore, before starting the process, the investigators had to prove that the community it exists at all. Dmitry Salishchev , senior assistant prosecutor of the Samara region to oversee the execution of laws on federal security, interethnic relations, combating extremism and terrorism, "members of the organization held right-wing nationalist views, supported by the ideology of fascism, prosecuted for crimes of an extremist nature, including violent . These facts gave rise to the recognition of the organization's extremist and banning its activities. " On how he got into the "Toys", former member of the fan group agreed to talk only on condition that no one will know his name and did not see his face. This man confessed that he was one of the organizers of fights between fans, to bring fireworks into the stadium. By the way, he also explains what kind of order reigned in the community. According to him, in the "Toys" really promoted the ideology prohibited. More details - in a report NTV.

185,000 in both cases. ----- The thought occurred to me that it might have been tempting for some in the Org to pray that the letter-writing campaign would backfire. Having foreigners attempt to influence judges and courts will inevitably lead to a showdown of strength and there are several countries where the outcome of such a showdown could be predictable. I believe, for example, that some persons in the Org knew in advance the most likely outcome of an old letter-writing campaign to the president of Malawi. In some cases, instead of trying to create an 'international incident' the Org chose to compromise doctrine, such as in Bulgaria and Mexico. Sometimes I do believe it's a matter choosing the battles. But in any case, our prayers should always be for the support and encouragement of our brothers in Russia. We can pray for the ban to be lifted and pray for their freedom of movement and freedom of speech. But we should also remember, as Jesus did, that we pray not for our will, but Jehovah's will to be done. (Luke 22:42)

I'd bet it's mostly cows, anyway. Just giving you a bum steer. We sure have come a long way from the days when we couldn't even allow our pets to eat undrained meat. I couldn't have a pet snake because it would mean feeding them live mice without first draining the blood. The reason was that the feeding of pets was within our control and it didn't show proper respect for blood by "pouring it out on the ground." Now, it's considered to be a simple matter of individual conscience for an individual Witness to use blood products that require millions of gallons of donated blood to be processed in order to produce the blood product he or she might need. And we don't raise any widespread alarms over the fact that horse blood is also processed by the millions of gallons, instead of being poured out, in order for us to enjoy our ham and bacon and pork chops. 'Vampire' horse farm where blood is used for pig hormone | Daily Mail ... https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/oct/03/horse-blood-farms-china-donkeys-wild-horses-us-mass-slaughter Donor Horse Serum: Is it Worth the Cost? | - The Inside Rein Vampire farms exposed: British meat in cruel horse hormone scandal ...

PEGylated Bovine Carboxyhemoglobin (SANGUINATE™) Not necessarily. Bovine means it could have come from a bull or steer, right?

Noticed that Amazon wasn't there because they have inventory, not just of books now, but many items, and are getting their hooks into more brick-and-mortar initiatives -- and even perishable produce! Netflix wants to turn to wholly-owned content and is not only buying studio content to brand as "Netflix" but is already effectively hiring studios. Facebook has been looking into media creation and ownership as a supposed barrier against fake news. Skype and WeChat are NOT the world's largest phone companies, yet. Apple and Google are extremely successful App vendors. Uber and AirBnB will continue to gain market share by breaking the law. Still, I agree with the concept of the chart, and I think it's great!